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(WRAL)   When is the best time for the state legislature to override a veto? At midnight when the public hasn't been notified and five Democrats are absent, one of whom is in ICU after a car accident   (wral.com) divider line 217
    More: Asinine, Bev Perdue, GOP leaders, public notice, special session, voter ID, Party leaders of the United States Senate, North Carolina General Assembly, intensive care units  
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5237 clicks; posted to Politics » on 05 Jan 2012 at 3:07 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-01-05 04:14:09 PM

MugzyBrown: coeyagi: Bad for the country, asshole. The point of government isn't to improve the lives of the vast minority of their citizens at the benefits of the vast majority.

That's the point of government to help a majority of people over a minority? Slavery was good for the majority of people.


Actually, slavery is an excellent example of government policy enacted to improve the lives of a minority of citizens at the expense of the vast majority. Saying "slavery was good for a majority of people" is an idiotic statement by any stretch.
 
2012-01-05 04:14:34 PM
The Republican Party: We take away your rights in order to defend your freedom.
 
2012-01-05 04:15:25 PM

MugzyBrown: coeyagi: Bad for the country, asshole. The point of government isn't to improve the lives of the vast minority of their citizens at the benefits of the vast majority.

That's the point of government to help a majority of people over a minority? Slavery was good for the majority of people.


again - its a matter of perspective. I tend to believe that the government that governs least governs best. But the GOP (and some Democrats) seem to believe that invasive government and regulations favoring their particular friends and ideology are how to best rule the country.
 
2012-01-05 04:15:29 PM

Weaver95: qorkfiend: Weaver95: it is, as you say, a 'matter of perspective'. the WI Democrats felt that Walker and his GOP buddies were passing legislation that was extremely damaging to the people they represented. they tried everything possible to get their voice heard but Walker and his buddies shut them out with every trick they could come up with. so they were left with a hail mary play and they ran with it.

Don't forget the WI-GOP tried to skirt the quorum rule by voting as soon as a Democrat walked into the chamber.

the state level GOP organizations seem to be relying on razor thin margins and obscure procedural tricks to move their agenda forward. I think they know that their ideology isn't acceptable to the majority of voters...but achieving the end goal is what matters to them. serving the public interests is a distant concern.


Unlike Obama who bravely did what needed to be done to protect freedom!
 
2012-01-05 04:15:51 PM

coeyagi: MugzyBrown: coeyagi: Bad for the country, asshole. The point of government isn't to improve the lives of the vast minority of their citizens at the benefits of the vast majority.

That's the point of government to help a majority of people over a minority? Slavery was good for the majority of people.

Um, only if you measure things in terms of economics.


Sounds like a Republican

But only if you do it while simultaneously not understanding economics.
 
2012-01-05 04:16:57 PM
Eh, they gave Democrats political cover from their union bankers. No harm done.
 
2012-01-05 04:17:06 PM
Um, only if you measure things in terms of economics.

I don't know. I mean only 15% or so of the population is black. So for 85% of the people you have really cheap labor for all of these infrastructure projects we need. Think of the tax savings. We could probably balance the budget if we replaced all federal workers with slaves.

We'll improve the lives of the vast majority of the people.


Government's job is to protect the rights and property of the people, and that's about it. Once they go beyond that, they're really just picking winners and losers... and more often than not, more people lose than win.
 
2012-01-05 04:17:16 PM
Okay, I loathe slimeball Republicans (pardon my redundancy) as much as the next guy, and on a substantive level this legislation is an outrage. That said, I have no problem with anyone using procedural tactics to their advantage. It's the way the system works; it's the way it's designed to work. Welcome to the sausage factory.
 
2012-01-05 04:17:28 PM

cabbyman:

Unlike Obama who bravely did what needed to be done to protect freedom!


that's one view, yes. I think Obama felt he had no choice to do what he did. given the GOP's obstructionist ways I can't say I blame Obama for just saying 'f*ck it' and just go ahead.
 
2012-01-05 04:17:31 PM

Weaver95: the state level GOP organizations seem to be relying on razor thin margins and obscure procedural tricks to move their agenda forward. I think they know that their ideology isn't acceptable to the majority of voters...but achieving the end goal is what matters to them. serving the public interests is a distant concern.


That's gonna cost them next election. The NCAE (N.C. Teacher's Union) votes, and so do their families, friends, familes of those students short-changed by the educational budget cuts, and the other unions.

/The long Winter of the GOP is coming, and they know it.
 
2012-01-05 04:18:21 PM

Corvus: lennavan: Corvus: There is a big difference what Obama did and this.

[explanation here].

Seriously, do you think anyone who needs an explanation as to why Obama's recess appointments is significantly different than this has honest discourse in mind? Your only two audiences here are people who already know and partisan hacks.

I agree mostly but I believe people still need to make the fair point.

Fark:
I get in trouble if I just beat on and call right wing Fark partisans names.
I get in trouble if I try to have fair civil discourse with them.



I'd just suggest you have fun doin it too, maybe call the hacks fun names like knobgoblin or something. You may as well get something out of it.
 
2012-01-05 04:19:08 PM

BMulligan: Okay, I loathe slimeball Republicans (pardon my redundancy) as much as the next guy, and on a substantive level this legislation is an outrage. That said, I have no problem with anyone using procedural tactics to their advantage. It's the way the system works; it's the way it's designed to work. Welcome to the sausage factory.


I view procedural tricks as the 'nuclear weapons' of legislative procedure. once you use them, you open up a very nasty can of worms and the fallout from your action(s) has a half life measured in geological ages.
 
2012-01-05 04:20:21 PM

HotWingConspiracy: I'm not clear on who the GOP's constituency is anymore.


Billionaire Old White Dudes
Lobbyists
Hookers
Coke Dealers
The Legion of Doom
The Sinister Six
Dr. Doom
Red Skull
Moriarty
Boris (not Natasha)
Dick Dastardly
...

I might have missed a few
 
2012-01-05 04:21:29 PM

Summer Glau's Love Slave: Weaver95: the state level GOP organizations seem to be relying on razor thin margins and obscure procedural tricks to move their agenda forward. I think they know that their ideology isn't acceptable to the majority of voters...but achieving the end goal is what matters to them. serving the public interests is a distant concern.

That's gonna cost them next election. The NCAE (N.C. Teacher's Union) votes, and so do their families, friends, familes of those students short-changed by the educational budget cuts, and the other unions.

/The long Winter of the GOP is coming, and they know it.


And you think they voted for those same Republicans the last election cycle? You honestly think those are net-lost votes?
 
2012-01-05 04:21:30 PM

Corvus: There is a big difference what Obama did and this.


That I can agree with. There's really no comparison between a recess appointment and a midnight veto override session.

Corvus: In this the Republicans are also not allowing for the members to have a true vote.


Sorta. The legislation did pass, and they followed the rules to override the veto. North Carolina might have purposely set the bar very low to override a veto consider that the governor didn't even have the power until 1996.
 
2012-01-05 04:22:17 PM

cabbyman: Summer Glau's Love Slave: Weaver95: the state level GOP organizations seem to be relying on razor thin margins and obscure procedural tricks to move their agenda forward. I think they know that their ideology isn't acceptable to the majority of voters...but achieving the end goal is what matters to them. serving the public interests is a distant concern.

That's gonna cost them next election. The NCAE (N.C. Teacher's Union) votes, and so do their families, friends, familes of those students short-changed by the educational budget cuts, and the other unions.

/The long Winter of the GOP is coming, and they know it.

And you think they voted for those same Republicans the last election cycle? You honestly think those are net-lost votes?


I think you'd be a fool to make enemies when you don't need 'em.
 
2012-01-05 04:23:04 PM

KingPsyz: HotWingConspiracy: I'm not clear on who the GOP's constituency is anymore.

Billionaire Old White Dudes
Lobbyists
Hookers
Coke Dealers
The Legion of Doom
The Sinister Six
Dr. Doom
Red Skull
Moriarty
Boris (not Natasha)
Dick Dastardly
...

I might have missed a few


Cobra Commander
That Guy Who Takes Phone Calls During Movies
 
2012-01-05 04:23:46 PM

Weaver95: cabbyman:

Unlike Obama who bravely did what needed to be done to protect freedom!

that's one view, yes. I think Obama felt he had no choice to do what he did. given the GOP's obstructionist ways I can't say I blame Obama for just saying 'f*ck it' and just go ahead.


So how is that any different than what the Republicans did here? Obama consciously picked a time that he knew he could get squeak a fastball by.

There is not one bit of difference.
 
2012-01-05 04:24:56 PM

cabbyman: Weaver95: cabbyman:

Unlike Obama who bravely did what needed to be done to protect freedom!

that's one view, yes. I think Obama felt he had no choice to do what he did. given the GOP's obstructionist ways I can't say I blame Obama for just saying 'f*ck it' and just go ahead.

So how is that any different than what the Republicans did here? Obama consciously picked a time that he knew he could get squeak a fastball by.

There is not one bit of difference.


What Obama did is expressly permitted by the constitution?
 
2012-01-05 04:25:48 PM

Weaver95: cabbyman: Summer Glau's Love Slave: Weaver95: the state level GOP organizations seem to be relying on razor thin margins and obscure procedural tricks to move their agenda forward. I think they know that their ideology isn't acceptable to the majority of voters...but achieving the end goal is what matters to them. serving the public interests is a distant concern.

That's gonna cost them next election. The NCAE (N.C. Teacher's Union) votes, and so do their families, friends, familes of those students short-changed by the educational budget cuts, and the other unions.

/The long Winter of the GOP is coming, and they know it.

And you think they voted for those same Republicans the last election cycle? You honestly think those are net-lost votes?

I think you'd be a fool to make enemies when you don't need 'em.


I think it's foolish to make enemies regardless of the situation. I agree with you here.

Politics is a game that is played for keeps. It involves huge amounts of money and power. It's best to keep both out of the hands of politicians to begin with.
 
2012-01-05 04:26:44 PM

cabbyman: Weaver95: cabbyman:

Unlike Obama who bravely did what needed to be done to protect freedom!

that's one view, yes. I think Obama felt he had no choice to do what he did. given the GOP's obstructionist ways I can't say I blame Obama for just saying 'f*ck it' and just go ahead.

So how is that any different than what the Republicans did here? Obama consciously picked a time that he knew he could get squeak a fastball by.

There is not one bit of difference.


well for one thing, we're talking about the difference between the US congress and a state legislator. different venue, different dynamics, different factions. how's the quote go? the smaller the stakes the more vicious the fight? I suspect that's what's really going on here - a couple of 'big fish' in their small pond showing off their egos. Probably not entire the case...but i'll get its a significant factor.
 
2012-01-05 04:27:49 PM

CPennypacker: cabbyman: Weaver95: cabbyman:

Unlike Obama who bravely did what needed to be done to protect freedom!

that's one view, yes. I think Obama felt he had no choice to do what he did. given the GOP's obstructionist ways I can't say I blame Obama for just saying 'f*ck it' and just go ahead.

So how is that any different than what the Republicans did here? Obama consciously picked a time that he knew he could get squeak a fastball by.

There is not one bit of difference.

What Obama did is expressly permitted by the constitution?


OK, you have my attention. Which party did something that was expressly forbidden by the constitution?
 
2012-01-05 04:29:14 PM

cabbyman: CPennypacker: cabbyman: Weaver95: cabbyman:

Unlike Obama who bravely did what needed to be done to protect freedom!

that's one view, yes. I think Obama felt he had no choice to do what he did. given the GOP's obstructionist ways I can't say I blame Obama for just saying 'f*ck it' and just go ahead.

So how is that any different than what the Republicans did here? Obama consciously picked a time that he knew he could get squeak a fastball by.

There is not one bit of difference.

What Obama did is expressly permitted by the constitution?

OK, you have my attention. Which party did something that was expressly forbidden by the constitution?


Who said they did? All I said that what Obama did is expressly permitted by the constitution.
 
2012-01-05 04:29:22 PM

cabbyman: So how is that any different than what the Republicans did here? Obama consciously picked a time that he knew he could get squeak a fastball by.

There is not one bit of difference.


Recess appointments are a well established practice. That's the difference.
 
2012-01-05 04:29:23 PM

cabbyman: Politics is a game that is played for keeps. It involves huge amounts of money and power. It's best to keep both out of the hands of politicians to begin with.


How do you keep politicians out of politics, when anyone who participates in politics is a de facto politician?
 
2012-01-05 04:31:36 PM
stay classy
 
2012-01-05 04:33:34 PM

Weaver95: BMulligan: Okay, I loathe slimeball Republicans (pardon my redundancy) as much as the next guy, and on a substantive level this legislation is an outrage. That said, I have no problem with anyone using procedural tactics to their advantage. It's the way the system works; it's the way it's designed to work. Welcome to the sausage factory.

I view procedural tricks as the 'nuclear weapons' of legislative procedure. once you use them, you open up a very nasty can of worms and the fallout from your action(s) has a half life measured in geological ages.


You mean, like fleeing to Illinois because you can stop the legislative process by being out of state?
 
2012-01-05 04:37:47 PM

jbuist: cabbyman: So how is that any different than what the Republicans did here? Obama consciously picked a time that he knew he could get squeak a fastball by.

There is not one bit of difference.

Recess appointments are a well established practice. That's the difference.


So is voting on bills.
 
2012-01-05 04:39:49 PM

RoxtarRyan: KingPsyz: HotWingConspiracy: I'm not clear on who the GOP's constituency is anymore.

Billionaire Old White Dudes
Lobbyists
Hookers
Coke Dealers
The Legion of Doom
The Sinister Six
Dr. Doom
Red Skull
Moriarty
Boris (not Natasha)
Dick Dastardly
...

I might have missed a few

Cobra Commander
That Guy Who Takes Phone Calls During Movies


You've never been to see a Tyler Perry film in a theater, have you?
 
2012-01-05 04:40:00 PM

cabbyman: jbuist: cabbyman: So how is that any different than what the Republicans did here? Obama consciously picked a time that he knew he could get squeak a fastball by.

There is not one bit of difference.

Recess appointments are a well established practice. That's the difference.

So is voting on bills.


cdn.androidpolice.com
 
2012-01-05 04:40:06 PM

jbuist: Corvus: There is a big difference what Obama did and this.

That I can agree with. There's really no comparison between a recess appointment and a midnight veto override session.

Corvus: In this the Republicans are also not allowing for the members to have a true vote.

Sorta. The legislation did pass, and they followed the rules to override the veto. North Carolina might have purposely set the bar very low to override a veto consider that the governor didn't even have the power until 1996.


Passing it when they know congressmen can't make it on purpose so it will pass is trying to make it not a fair vote. It might be legal but it goes against fairness and the intent.

Under what your saying it would be ok for the congressmen to be detained by marshals just so they couldn't vote in congress. Would you think that is ok?
 
2012-01-05 04:42:46 PM

Weaver95: the state level GOP organizations seem to be relying on razor thin margins and obscure procedural tricks to move their agenda forward. I think they know that their ideology isn't acceptable to the majority of voters...but achieving the end goal is what matters to them. serving the public interests is a distant concern.


This differs from the national level GOP legislators how, exactly?
 
2012-01-05 04:44:24 PM

jafiwam: Weaver95: BMulligan: Okay, I loathe slimeball Republicans (pardon my redundancy) as much as the next guy, and on a substantive level this legislation is an outrage. That said, I have no problem with anyone using procedural tactics to their advantage. It's the way the system works; it's the way it's designed to work. Welcome to the sausage factory.

I view procedural tricks as the 'nuclear weapons' of legislative procedure. once you use them, you open up a very nasty can of worms and the fallout from your action(s) has a half life measured in geological ages.

You mean, like fleeing to Illinois because you can stop the legislative process by being out of state?


I can't speak for Weaver, but as the person quoted in the first instance - yes. Exactly like that.

Someone upthread said that this is the sort of thing that happens when you elect lawyers, and I suppose that's true. Perhaps my professional life is coloring my judgment here. I remember when I was in law school, my Civ Pro professor (a frighteningly smart woman who, last I heard, sits on the Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals) told us that it was better to win on procedure than on the merits. I thought that was a horribly cynical point of view, until I actually started practicing. A couple of years into my legal career I learned an important corollary to that assertion - while winning on procedure may not feel better than winning on the merits, losing on procedure thoroughly sucks. It's not something anyone wants to experience twice.
 
2012-01-05 04:47:17 PM

agsfark: They should have gotten rid of the "education" lottery while there.


Oh yes, the fine "education lottery" where they promised the money would increase the amount of funding to each school system in the state.

The Result: Not a dime of school funding increased since the "education lottery" has started. In fact funding for schools from the state has gone down in this time period - resulting in layoffs of teachers in nearly every school system in the state.

The money raised by the lottery simply went to replace the money from the general fund that used to go to schools. Leaving the politicans to plunder the general fund to give out money for wasteful political "consulting studies" to their relatives.

Of course, a huge amount of lottery money went to pay the salaries of the lottery commission who sent all the "business" to firms that they had connections with. Enjoyed all of those indictments.

Of course, North Carolina has the poorest performing lottery and the highest percentage of overhead compared to all the other states with lotteries.
 
2012-01-05 04:48:46 PM

Koalaesq: jayg22: Must have learned this move from Obama and his "recess appointments"

Yes, because Obama was the first president to do that, ever.


Obama is the only president to make recess appointments, just like he's the only president to use a teleprompter.
 
2012-01-05 04:49:45 PM

coeyagi: You've never been to see a Tyler Perry film in a theater, have you?


Correct. I also haven't voted for any of those assclowns running in the GOP, so, there are two things I don't have in common with idiots.
 
2012-01-05 04:52:26 PM

RoxtarRyan: coeyagi: You've never been to see a Tyler Perry film in a theater, have you?

Correct. I also haven't voted for any of those assclowns running in the GOP, so, there are two things I don't have in common with idiots.


So you're saying that anyone that has seen a Tyler Perry movie in a theater is an idiot?

Wow...
 
2012-01-05 04:53:42 PM

Weaver95: in THIS case, it just looks bad. Middle of the night legislative sessions NEVER look good. And when you're using your middle of the night legislative session to overturn a veto that will piss off a LOT of voters...well, as I said above when the GOP here in my state pulled a midnight session the backlash wiped out several key members of the GOP delegation.


It appears the 300+ late night legislative sessions held by the Democrats for the past 100 years in North Carolina before Republicans recently held both the State Senate and Legislature are perfectly acceptable then. It appears that when the Democrats did it; it was not that bad because it too 100 years to piss off the voters and vote them out of office.

This is simply the Republicans in North Carolina doing to the Democrats exactly what the Democrats did to them for the past 100 years.
 
2012-01-05 04:57:19 PM

Corvus: There is a big difference what Obama did and this.

The Republicans in congress would not let Obama's picks get up or down vote. They were blocking the process a vote. Obama didn't go around the vote because he knew he would lose. The Republicans refused to give it a fair vote in the first place.

In this the Republicans are also not allowing for the members to have a true vote.

Obama didn't go around the voting process, he went around the Republicans blocking the voting process.


Did you know as kid I had always wanted a Stretch Armstrong figure? How did you transform yourself into him?
 
2012-01-05 05:03:39 PM
Guys, you're missing the point.

All of these teachers are working so little to gain such a high pay check that it's running the state dry. Teachers are so overpaid these days. I mean, come on, they get an entire THREE MONTHS off.

My mother is a teacher and she admits that her $18,000 a year is TOO HIGH. I mean, she can almost afford a small apartment and a decent used car with that kind of dough!

Good on these Republicans for going in and doing what was right, even if it required that they use underhanded tactics. Sometimes those tactics are NECESSARY.
 
2012-01-05 05:07:07 PM

gblive: Weaver95: in THIS case, it just looks bad. Middle of the night legislative sessions NEVER look good. And when you're using your middle of the night legislative session to overturn a veto that will piss off a LOT of voters...well, as I said above when the GOP here in my state pulled a midnight session the backlash wiped out several key members of the GOP delegation.

It appears the 300+ late night legislative sessions held by the Democrats for the past 100 years in North Carolina before Republicans recently held both the State Senate and Legislature are perfectly acceptable then. It appears that when the Democrats did it; it was not that bad because it too 100 years to piss off the voters and vote them out of office.

This is simply the Republicans in North Carolina doing to the Democrats exactly what the Democrats did to them for the past 100 years.


Remember, the asshole Republicans once were Democrats. They are the same kind of people, they just changed parties during the Southern Strategy.
 
2012-01-05 05:25:34 PM

madgonad: gblive: Weaver95: in THIS case, it just looks bad. Middle of the night legislative sessions NEVER look good. And when you're using your middle of the night legislative session to overturn a veto that will piss off a LOT of voters...well, as I said above when the GOP here in my state pulled a midnight session the backlash wiped out several key members of the GOP delegation.

It appears the 300+ late night legislative sessions held by the Democrats for the past 100 years in North Carolina before Republicans recently held both the State Senate and Legislature are perfectly acceptable then. It appears that when the Democrats did it; it was not that bad because it too 100 years to piss off the voters and vote them out of office.

This is simply the Republicans in North Carolina doing to the Democrats exactly what the Democrats did to them for the past 100 years.

Remember, the asshole Republicans once were Democrats. They are the same kind of people, they just changed parties during the Southern Strategy.


Actually this is not really so with the current group in the state legislature; all the Republicans have always been Republicans, and all the Democrats have always been Democrats.

The bottom line is that the entire group from both parties behave like children; and many keep getting indicted by the Feds for corruption. The past years have been an endless circus.
 
2012-01-05 05:32:36 PM
"The North Carolina House has the distinction of making the US Congress look like a functional institution," said Stein.

I hope those congressmen got some ointment in their bribe envelopes, because they just got burned.
 
2012-01-05 05:32:39 PM

heinekenftw: Guys, you're missing the point.

All of these teachers are working so little to gain such a high pay check that it's running the state dry. Teachers are so overpaid these days. I mean, come on, they get an entire THREE MONTHS off.

My mother is a teacher and she admits that her $18,000 a year is TOO HIGH. I mean, she can almost afford a small apartment and a decent used car with that kind of dough!

Good on these Republicans for going in and doing what was right, even if it required that they use underhanded tactics. Sometimes those tactics are NECESSARY.


This entire vote was not about teacher pay. It was if teachers should have dues to the NCAE teachers organization automatically deducted from each of their paychecks - a privilege the state does not provide to any other "union" organization. Teachers can always send monthly checks from their own account to the NCAE (or do automatic draft). Why should all teachers be pressured by having the dues deducted automatically from each paycheck.

The NCAE takes the money and gives it to PACs in North Carolina that attempt to elect Democratic politicans. The Ads that the NCAE funded PACs have run against Republican candidates in the state over the past few years have been some of the most nasty politicial ads that I have ever witnessed.
 
2012-01-05 05:33:32 PM

GAT_00: There really is nothing, absolutely nothing, about this that isn't criminal.


what is criminal when they followed the rules?

are you living in opposite world again?

you can whine that it is not a nice thing to do, but criminal? No.

Don't like it? change the laws and rules that they followed, just don't whine like a butt-hurt baby that it is criminal.
 
2012-01-05 05:34:15 PM

blahpers: "The North Carolina House has the distinction of making the US Congress look like a functional institution," said Stein.

I hope those congressmen got some ointment in their bribe envelopes, because they just got burned.


Stein is very correct in this. However the issue in North Carolina is both parties.
 
2012-01-05 05:39:24 PM

gblive: blahpers: "The North Carolina House has the distinction of making the US Congress look like a functional institution," said Stein.

I hope those congressmen got some ointment in their bribe envelopes, because they just got burned.

Stein is very correct in this. However the issue in North Carolina is both parties.


Yeah, it's both parties' faults that the Republicans held a secret midnight vote to override a veto. Just like it's both the priest's fault and the altar boy's fault when a boy gets raped.
 
2012-01-05 05:45:19 PM

GAT_00: It's not even a question anymore. Republicans are fascists. The law only matters when they get a political win out of it.


Lol. You say this with a straight face after Obama appointments yesterday? They followed the letter of the law at least.
 
2012-01-05 05:45:47 PM
Dammit, how dare you thwart democracy by calling a late-night session to override the veto issued by a single person of the legislation duly passed by the people's representatives?*

And what if they'd waited until 8:00 a.m., would the person in the ICU (a detail absent from TFA, FWIW) or the undisclosed number of absentees said to be engaged in "foreign travel" have been able to attend? If not, STFU.

*I'm not saying veto procedures aren't valid. Or even that it's wrong to have them. Just that they're anti-democratic.
 
2012-01-05 05:47:06 PM
The election this november is going to be a tidalwave of blue in the US congress, and in the state legislatures.
 
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