After trading the article, that's some serious bullshiat.

They essentially screwed that guy over of his money and property, too bad no one ever reads the fine print in the user agreements

At some point, Paypal is going to be prosecuted for destroying cultural artifacts.

/also, in before the inevitable "smallest violin playing heart bleeds for you" jokes.

I sold a Shroud of Jesus on Ebay and they burned it. Not because it was a fake, because they hate Jesus.

Norv Turner: After trading the article, that's some serious bullshiat.

They essentially screwed that guy over of his money and property, too bad no one ever reads the fine print in the user agreements

Companies should not be allowed to have such absurd terms of service but until republicans stop screaming socialism at every attempt to regulate some sanity into the system we are not going to get anywhere

1. Get nice item
2. Claim it's fake
3. Smash up similar crap item and take pic
4. Send to paypal, get money back and keep nice item


Still don't understand why anyone does business with PayPal.

Paypal's policy is to always in these cases, 100% of the time, assume the disputed item is counterfeit. It's a legal CYA on their part.

If course it's an insane response, but they're a corporation; they don't operate on reason and logic.

That is one sad looking violin. Crime really.

You mean people still use paypal?

It wasn't worth $2,500. You attempted to sell it for $2,500 & the guy didn't like it.

p.s. Read the TOS.
OH & #HaHa.

No I don't have anything worth $2,500

I don't understand....so is this being taken to court or is the seller just writing it off? That makes absolutely no sense.

I would totally sue both the buyer and Paypal, as he didn't get his money AND since the transaction wasn't completed, HIS property was destroyed....if by Paypal instruction, then Paypal needs to be sued.

Really stupid. If you buy a sweater using a credit card, and decide it's not a good fit or whatever, you take it back to the store for a refund.....the credit card company doesn't tell you to destroy the sweater to get your money back. I really fail to see how destroying the item in question can be seen as a good idea by Paypal.....why not just send the thing back to the seller?

FlameDuck: That is one sad looking violin. Crime really.

Not really, the seller obviously didn't treasure it as it was sold (unless it was a last effort to pay bills or something like that), and beyond that it was just an old violin that got smashed. Buy a new one and be done with it.

Harry Freakstorm: I bought the mechanical heart of Dick Cheney off ebay. Then I saw the Dark One still moping around, complaining that there was only o

The real heart is in this clip here.
(new window)

I'd like to know a little more backstory, e.g. if the seller had been contacted regarding the authenticity dispute and offered to refund the money in exchange for getting the violin back. From the content of the story it sounds like it, but it's not explicitly stated.

DerAppie: FlameDuck: That is one sad looking violin. Crime really.

Not really, the seller obviously didn't treasure it as it was sold (unless it was a last effort to pay bills or something like that), and beyond that it was just an old violin that got smashed. Buy a new one and be done with it.

What an absurd thing to say.

That'll buff right out.

DerAppie: Not really, the seller obviously didn't treasure it as it was sold (unless it was a last effort to pay bills or something like that), and beyond that it was just an old violin that got smashed. Buy a new one and be done with it.

Suppose you had an old Honda Civic worth $2,500 and you sold it to a guy so you could buy a new car. Then, he disputes that the car's odometer is accurate with the bank. The bank says "oh, ok, well we'll give you your money back (taken from YOUR ACCOUNT), but it's not fair to let you keep the car too, so burn it."

And then somebody tells you to "Buy a new one and be done with it." Would you feel like all was well again?

Holy crap. That was a hand-made wooden instrument. Why on earth would PayPal ask you to destroy such a thing? I'm shocked that they don't have some kind of dispute resolution team that looks into the authenticity of items valued over a certain amount.

The mere possession of counterfeit goods is a crime. Paypal can not legally condone counterfeit goods to be shipped back to the seller. Since it is too expensive to determine if something is actually counterfeit or not, Paypal assumes that the buyer's claim is accurate.

Is it right to hate Paypal for following a screwed up law?

Dadoody: I don't understand....so is this being taken to court or is the seller just writing it off? That makes absolutely no sense.

I would totally sue both the buyer and Paypal, as he didn't get his money AND since the transaction wasn't completed, HIS property was destroyed....if by Paypal instruction, then Paypal needs to be sued.

Be an interesting case as the destroying property clause was specifically in the terms of agreement. They would essentially have to argue that the agreement was somehow void or forcing someone to read through all that is somehow illegal?

/not a lawyer

That's the most asinine thing I've ever read. I've never used Paypal due to all of the horror stories, but this just takes the cake.

DerAppie: FlameDuck: That is one sad looking violin. Crime really.

Not really, the seller obviously didn't treasure it as it was sold (unless it was a last effort to pay bills or something like that), and beyond that it was just an old violin that got smashed. Buy a new one and be done with it.

Maybe the seller though that the buyer would appreciate the violin more, and thought the guy he/she was selling to was less of an asshole. The problem is that this wasn't a counterfeit, and they had a pro evaluate it after the fact (although I think the seller had it appraised beforehand, but the dude didn't believe him). If the buyer thought it was a counterfeit, why didn't he do his own appraisal separate?

I know a lot of people who sell their antiques not because they don't appreciate them, but because they think others might get more enjoyment out them. For Paypal to have this clause is stupid and insulting, because while there are counterfeits out there, a lot of the legit stuff can end up like this violin. There are other ways PayPal can cover their asses for counterfeits other than destorying merchandise.

This would never happen is there was extensive government oversight for all commercial transactions.

wrs1864: The mere possession of counterfeit goods is a crime. Paypal can not legally condone counterfeit goods to be shipped back to the seller. Since it is too expensive to determine if something is actually counterfeit or not, Paypal assumes that the buyer's claim is acI curate.

Is it right to hate Paypal for following a screwed up law?

I think that is true where you are infringing on a trademark but the dude who supposedly made the violin has been dead for ever, whose trademark is being infringed?

Possession of a Mona Lisa knockoff is not illegal.

portscanner: You mean people still use paypal?

Oh please stop with the jokes already. Try using google checkout on ebay and see what happens. Its pretty much paypal or waiting for the USPS to deliver you a money order.

wrs1864: The mere possession of counterfeit goods is a crime. Paypal can not legally condone counterfeit goods to be shipped back to the seller. Since it is too expensive to determine if something is actually counterfeit or not, Paypal assumes that the buyer's claim is accurate.

This. I don't know what the alternative is, but I'm hoping this story will force them to find one.

Actually, I got a survey from eBay a while back asking for my opinion about a new approach -- sellers would send their item to an eBay clearinghouse, which would verify that it is "as described", then ship it to the buyer. In case of disputes, the item would presumably be shipped back to eBay. That could certainly take care of the "what do we do with a counterfeit" issue, but it would also impose a lot more overhead expense.

Don't know what the answer is, but the current policy obviously isn't it.

Dislike PayPal but I'm calling shenanigans on this story. Has to be more to it.

1) Buy Louis Vuitton bag using Paypal
2) Buy fake Louis Vuitton bag from Nigerian guy on the street corner
3) Destroy fake bag, get back money from Paypal

Seriously?

i bought a sword on ebay for 110 bucks including S&H. 70 purchase, 40 S&H, well the guy closed up shop and never sent it out. paypal refunded 70 and refused to refund the S&H. sucks for them though as they tried to pull the funds out of an old closed account. so they came after me wanting me to pay them $40 for something i never got. last time i used their service. never will use again.

Sheesh, Paypal is fail all the way around. We bought a tv series off of Ebay and the dumbass seller sent it to an invalid address, the post office kept is for 7 days (wouldn't release it to us even though it had our name and a close address on it), and then sent it back. We disputed with Paypal and sent them a screenshot of the entire mailing fiasco. They told us they would attempt to contact the sender. Anyway, fast forward seven days and Paypal claims the seller never got his item back (not our fault) so they would not make him refund our money. WTF?! I had to escalate twice until I finally got someone who READ the post office tracking log and then issued our refund. Such a farking failure.

Also the last two items I sold on Ebay the buyer claimed "item not as described" (even though I had screenshots of the auction and detailed pictures of the item). Paypal doesn't care even when one box i got back contained shredded newspaper and the other item didn't need to be sent back according to Paypal because it was "counterfeit" (which it was not, I bought it directly from a Sample sale at the store).

Basically if you like constantly getting screwed over, use Ebay for buying and selling things.

Hmmm...

Something tells me the seller isn't being entirely forthcoming. It should be a crime to destroy such an antique if that's what it was, but usually the way things go are as follows:

*Transaction occurs, seller ships item, buyer receives item.*
Buyer: Um hey seller? This is fake.
Seller: Um.. no it's not.
B: Dude, yes it is. This label looks kinda funny to me and I don't think it's legit.
S: I'm sorry, I've had this item authenticated *shows proof* and it's completely legit.
B: I want my money back, or I'll file a dispute with paypal.
S: Good luck.
*Buyer complains to paypal about item being counterfit, paypal tells them to destroy the evil counterfit item*
Seller: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

In similar fashion, I have, at certain points in my life, used PayPal and Amazon Seller to sell my photographic and video equipment when I've upgraded them.

Paypal, when selling a value of high dollar amount, will hold funds (even those deemed for shipping) until they get confirmation of delivery and the customer is satisfied.

Amazon will do you one better. I had sold a $2200 camera on Amazon and they wanted me to ship it, at my personal expense and would only release the funds after the customer approved the package. Not sure about you, but that seems insanely unsettling shipping something of that value on faith the customer won't just say it's not good. Not only that, but Amazon has a VERY high number of people in Nigeria wanting to buy things, haha.

That story made a chill go down my spine ...I would sue... and if that did not work, I would do my best to destroy $2500 worth of paypal property (whatever that may be).

Minimally Hairy Beer-Powered Simian: why not just send the thing back to the seller?

... a corporation based on the sale of intellectual property being anal about counterfeiting policies.

Warlordtrooper: Companies should not be allowed to have such absurd terms of service but until republicans stop screaming socialism at every attempt to regulate some sanity into the system we are not going to get anywhere

Yes, those eeeeeeevil republicans enjoy going around, smashing violins. Get the fark over yourself.

Several years ago I adopted a baby from an orphanage through one of those online discount baby sites. Since I was excited to meet my new child, I decided to pay via Paypal rather than wait for a money order to arrive by mail.

Two days later, a knock on my door and UPS handed me a box with several air holes poked in the side. I excitedly rushed back inside and tore into the box. Just imagine my disappointment when I found out the baby was a counterfeit Caucasian baby! It was a brown kid dipped in baby powder!

So I contacted Paypal to tell them I'd been conned by a fake product and asked if I should mail the baby back to the orphanage. They told me it was their policy to destroy the item in question, and if I wanted to get my money back, I would have to provide proof that I'd done so.

So I fired up my barbeque and tossed the little brown bastard on. I had to use the fork a few times to turn him over and make sure he got thoroughly cremated.

Anyway, I eventually got my money back, and now Quinn sits atop my piano.

hailin: Sheesh, Paypal is fail all the way around. We bought a tv series off of Ebay and the dumbass seller sent it to an invalid address, the post office kept is for 7 days (wouldn't release it to us even though it had our name and a close address on it), and then sent it back. We disputed with Paypal and sent them a screenshot of the entire mailing fiasco. They told us they would attempt to contact the sender. Anyway, fast forward seven days and Paypal claims the seller never got his item back (not our fault) so they would not make him refund our money. WTF?! I had to escalate twice until I finally got someone who READ the post office tracking log and then issued our refund. Such a farking failure.

Also the last two items I sold on Ebay the buyer claimed "item not as described" (even though I had screenshots of the auction and detailed pictures of the item). Paypal doesn't care even when one box i got back contained shredded newspaper and the other item didn't need to be sent back according to Paypal because it was "counterfeit" (which it was not, I bought it directly from a Sample sale at the store).

Basically if you like constantly getting screwed over, use Ebay for buying and selling things.

Hell, even when the transaction goes through swimmingly, Ebay and PayPal (which is owned by Ebay) are still going to raep you for their fees. Last time I sold an item on Ebay, the vig on those sales came out to just over 31%. Which is why I usually only go through my local consignment shop, who only charges 18.5% AND does all the work of selling for me.

The seller never took payment and the buyer destroyed the item. I'm sure there are laws already on the books regarding destruction of property. The mere fact that paypal told the buyer to do so does not shield him from state law.

wrs1864: The mere possession of counterfeit goods is a crime. Paypal can not legally condone counterfeit goods to be shipped back to the seller. Since it is too expensive to determine if something is actually counterfeit or not, Paypal assumes that the buyer's claim is accurate.

Is it right to hate Paypal for following a screwed up law?

Last time I checked, the law says innocent of selling counterfeit goods until proven guilty of selling counterfeit goods.

The purfling (it's the black inlay around the edge of the instrument) looks crappy, as does the scroll (fancy top part) and the corners. In other words, it's probably a cheap, factory made violin that the seller was trying to pass off as something else, just a guess. They might not have known what it was, which is very unfortunate. Why yes, I'm a pro violinist.

The funny part is the "$2,500 antique violin". In violin terms, that would be like buying a car for $130. Violins by that maker typically sell for 10-12K, so the buyer thought he was getting an amazing deal and could flip it. Paypal was totally wrong and it's a ridiculous outcome, but it's probably a pawn shop fiddle.

Slartibartfaster: Minimally Hairy Beer-Powered Simian: why not just send the thing back to the seller?

... a corporation based on the sale of intellectual property being anal about counterfeiting policies.

As the violin in question (or at least the original) survived World War II and is quite old, I'd say that IP laws would not apply.

tankjr: The seller never took payment and the buyer destroyed the item. I'm sure there are laws already on the books regarding destruction of property. The mere fact that paypal told the buyer to do so does not shield him from state law.

Sending the photo to the seller was a classy touch too.
The buyer got the money back and felt the desire to send photos of the destroyed item to the seller.
Does not sound like anyone Id like to hear playing a violin.

/// Im kinda fussy on who I want playing violin
// 99% of them suck
/ I AM THE 99% !!!!

It does seem highly unlikely the violin was legit.

Also Paypal might have access to someone who could verify whether it was a legit, I once sent Polaroids of a mobile to Christy's auction house and they were able to confirm just from the photos that it was a legit Calder and provide an estimate of its value.