ZAZ: By law companies have to measure fuel economy the way the federal government says. Your mileage may vary is implied when not explicit. In a real court the case ought to be a loser. In small claims, who knows.

Since the case has already been won in a real court, you might want to rethink that.

Which is different than being a loser in a real court, wouldn't you say?

Also interesting is that America's telemarketers are currently working to be able to move cases out of small claims to prevent people from easily being able to sue when they break the law.

But Justice Stephen G. Breyer said he could think of a good reason to limit suits under the law to state courts. "Congress seemed to want to have ordinary people to be able to go into small claims court in a state and bring an action for $500 because they were pestered by these salesmen on the phone in violation of the act," he said.

If defendants were allowed to move such suits to federal court, Justice Breyer continued, a simple case could easily turn into a complicated and expensive one.

Scott L. Nelson, a lawyer for Mr. Mims, said that situation was unlikely.

Justice Anthony M. Kennedy was not persuaded. "That's exactly what's going to happen," he said.

I suppose our plutocracy will work to get rid of small claims court altogether next. You wouldn't want the little guy to have any rights.

Mark Ratner: He also questioned her criticism of class-action lawyers for the fees they receive. Jacoby, who handles such cases, said lawyers who take on the multiple clients involved do extensive work _ sometimes spanning years _ and are not in it just for money.

No, they aren't in it JUST for they money. They are also in it for the boasting rights. The hookers and blow are a nice side-benefit as well.

How does she prove her gas mileage sucks? Couldn't Honda make the case that she just drives with a heavy foot, and therefore gets lousy mileage?

I love the whining about the lawyers cleaning up in these things.

Joining an existing class action generally requires exactly no more effort than filling out a short application form and putting it back in the mail. You usually don't even have to hunt the form down yourself, it usually gets mailed to you without you having to ask for it.

If you're going to be that epically lazy about collecting your "damages" I fail to see how you're at all justified in whining that all you get are the meager scraps the lawyers choose to throw your way. You literally did nothing more than mail a letter. I'd say two hundred bucks for waddling your fat ass down the driveway and back is a pretty good deal.

/ if you don't like it, feel free to opt out and get your own lawyer or do what this woman did, you're not obligated to join the class action

Zizzowop: How does she prove her gas mileage sucks? Couldn't Honda make the case that she just drives with a heavy foot, and therefore gets lousy mileage?

Small claims courts don't exactly have an enormous burden of proof, but, yes, if Honda showed up and made this argument it's entirely possible her cunning plan could blow up in her face and she'd get nothing or, worse, wind up having to pay Honda's expenses.

That said, it's probably quite unlikely Honda would bother showing up instead of just settling unless they were worried this could turn into a trend and they need to make an example of her to prevent other people from going this route. Sending a $500/hr corporate lawyer on a road trip to represent the company in small claims court isn't exactly a judicious use of resources for a company that large.

This woman sounds like a real coont.

ZAZ: BullBearMS

The case was settled for nuisance value, a fraction of what this woman claims in damages.

It was settled for around $40 million to the class plus $8.5 million to the lawyers. She's asking for $10,000. I guess that 48,500,000/10,000 IS a fraction, but she's quite likely to do better than the $200 she was offered.

I wonder what proportion of that $8.5 million is actually for discovery-related costs?

Splinshints: Zizzowop: How does she prove her gas mileage sucks? Couldn't Honda make the case that she just drives with a heavy foot, and therefore gets lousy mileage?

Small claims courts don't exactly have an enormous burden of proof, but, yes, if Honda showed up and made this argument it's entirely possible her cunning plan could blow up in her face and she'd get nothing or, worse, wind up having to pay Honda's expenses.

That said, it's probably quite unlikely Honda would bother showing up instead of just settling unless they were worried this could turn into a trend and they need to make an example of her to prevent other people from going this route. Sending a $500/hr corporate lawyer on a road trip to represent the company in small claims court isn't exactly a judicious use of resources for a company that large.

But it would be hilarious if hundreds of people started doing it just to waste their resources.

Heather Peters says her car never came close to getting the promised 50 miles per gallon, and as its battery deteriorated, it was getting only 30 mpg.

That is pretty poor mileage for any civic, let alone a hybrid. My 2006 Nissan Sentra consistently gets 34 mpg without being a hybrid. I think the car is either worse than a standard civic or she is a liar/heavy footed driver

Splinshints: I love the whining about the lawyers cleaning up in these things.

Joining an existing class action generally requires exactly no more effort than filling out a short application form and putting it back in the mail. You usually don't even have to hunt the form down yourself, it usually gets mailed to you without you having to ask for it.

If you're going to be that epically lazy about collecting your "damages" I fail to see how you're at all justified in whining that all you get are the meager scraps the lawyers choose to throw your way. You literally did nothing more than mail a letter. I'd say two hundred bucks for waddling your fat ass down the driveway and back is a pretty good deal.

/ if you don't like it, feel free to opt out and get your own lawyer or do what this woman did, you're not obligated to join the class action

Oh, come on, you know as well as anyone that cases like this one are ones where the company that farked up arranges to pay off one token claimant and one law firm in order to buy immunity from a huge class of people who are unlikely to ever hear about the suit until after the opt-out date occurs.

By her math, there are 200,000 potential claimants. That makes the settlement @ $200/owner = $40,000,000 from Honda. $8.5m is 21.25%, which is less than the usual 1/3 contingent type fee. Moreover, typically the attorney fee is negotiated separately from the class recovery and is usually based on the number of hours spent on the case * what the lawyers normally make per hour (i.e. market cost).
The lawyers probably put in a huge number of hours, poring over hundreds of thousands of documents. This woman cannot prove the same things the class attorneys can--she cannot show any pattern or practice of deception. She can only show that her own car did not meet expectations, and there will be questions of how she maintained the vehicle and perhaps a reparable defect. Also, small claims "appeals" are, in most states, retrials, so even if she wins, that is far from the end of it. And, in most states, the small claims cap is far less than 10k and there is no bar to attorney participation.[Also, the court has to find the settlement fair, else the lawyers actually have to bring the case against Honda to trial, where it is possible that Honda could emerge victorious.]
I don't understand the hate on the lawyers. If there are 200,000 potential claimants, only a handful would have actually sued. For the 199000 plus who wouldn't have, they just got $200 in their pockets without lifting a finger. Not too shabby (And $40m is hardly nuisance value).
The whole point of class actions is to help those for whom it isn't worth the cost of suing in small claims.

Unknown to me until a few weeks ago, I was apparently party to a class action lawsuit brought against eBay. I found out about this when I received my settlement check.....my settlement award was 35 CENTS. Yup, 35 cents. Wanna bet the lawyers got more than 35 cents?

If this woman has the time and the wherewithal to put up evidence that her car's mileage is not anywhere near advertised, all power to her.

But demonizing class-action lawyers in this case is silly. The people who remain in the class take no risk and put up no money of their own to litigate the case, and they generally don't even know about the problem until they get a class-action notice in the mail. If they want to litigate it themselves and think they can get more money that way, they're welcome to opt out (although, if the total damages are only a few thousand dollars, best of luck coming out ahead with your own legal fees).

These class actions are enormously expensive - you have numerous attorneys working hundreds of hours and flying around the country consulting with experts, putting on depositions, fighting over disclosure of information, and reading millions of pages of documents. They can take years to litigate, which means that the lawyers who bring the suit are taking an enormous risk, paying hundreds of thousands of dollars up front in costs and foregoing any payout until the case is concluded. And if they lose, they get nothing.

I don't begrudge the lawyers getting their payday. Big risks should come with the potential for reward, lawyers having to pay their bills like any other business, and without class actions very few companies would be held to account for questionable consumer practices.

Sometimes that means that you're going to be scratching your head when you get voucher for $200 while the law firm that litigated the case gets a 7-figure payday. But your $200 is multiplied over tens of thousands of claimants, and it's not like you could have done better without the class action jerks.

@Fissile:
Was your claim worth more than $0.35? Would you have brought suit yourself?
Why didn't you opt out?
Basically, you got $0.35 more than you otherwise would have, so why does it matter that the lawyers got paid for the time and expense they put in on your behalf?

badhatharry: Good luck fighting a system that is set up by lawyers. And judges will always be lawyers.

===========


"A judge is a law student who marks his own examination papers."

-- H.L. Mencken

It should be illegal to include anyone in a class action lawsuit unless they agree and provide the lawyers with a signed and notarized statement attesting to such. As is stands now, all the lawyers need to do to include you in the class action suit is to notify you that you can opt out. That's BS.

indylaw: I don't begrudge the lawyers getting their payday. Big risks should come with the potential for reward, lawyers having to pay their bills like any other business, and without class actions very few companies would be held to account for questionable consumer practices.

Is it really that risky though? I'm not trying to be a smart ass, I really don't know the answer.

AFAIK, you never hear stories about lawyers losing large sums of money in class action lawsuits. Does that happen very often?

Fissile: Unknown to me until a few weeks ago, I was apparently party to a class action lawsuit brought against eBay. I found out about this when I received my settlement check.....my settlement award was 35 CENTS. Yup, 35 cents. Wanna bet the lawyers got more than 35 cents?


But they were fighting for YOU! They were only in it to do what's right, and they worked so very very hard on getting you that $0.35. It mattered to them. The millions of dollars they could get for their firm had nothing to do with it.

/sarcasm off

Here's how it works in America. Large companies say Buy my snake oil, it will cure all. People rush out and buy it. They find out it's just extract of vanilla in water and coloring. They decide to class action sue. Large legal firm takes case and get millions. People get satisfaction of thinking they were bonified heroes by showing the courts who was wrong, the big company that sold the snake oil
Americans are idots. They have no idea they are the butt of the joke as consumers.
But more stuff, eat more food. That makes them happy. They have no idea (except the large corporations, pharmaceutical companies, and legal firms) how to be happy.
You have to be a flim flam artist.
A grifter.
Sell snake oil and lawyer up first.

Splinshints: That said, it's probably quite unlikely Honda would bother showing up instead of just settling unless they were worried this could turn into a trend and they need to make an example of her to prevent other people from going this route. Sending a $500/hr corporate lawyer on a road trip to represent the company in small claims court isn't exactly a judicious use of resources for a company that large.

Firm that large has lawyers on salary that they can use for this.

The Homer Tax: Is it really that risky though? I'm not trying to be a smart ass, I really don't know the answer.

AFAIK, you never hear stories about lawyers losing large sums of money in class action lawsuits. Does that happen very often?

It happens. I don't have figures for you, but "Class Action Thrown Out At Summary Judgment" doesn't make for sexy headlines like "Honda to Pay $50m in Mileage Lawsuit."

Like most things in law, though, it's usually not a black and white proposition. Most cases, class action or not, settle before they reach trial. Sometimes class action firms go into a case thinking that they've got the upper hand, but discovery doesn't turn up the smoking gun they were looking for or the judge hands the plaintiffs some tactical upset that slashes the likelihood of winning big. What may have started as a $200m potential judgment gets settled for $20m because, although there's still a chance that the plaintiffs could win, that chance has diminished or the amount of damages has been revised.

If a firm estimates that they're going gross $8 million in a case, they may budget $4 million for costs, overhead and wages. If they settle a case for a value that only gets them $2 million, that sounds like a lot of money, but the firm's partners have taken a hit.

Mark Ratner: FTA: Aaron Jacoby, a Los Angeles attorney who heads the automotive industry group at the Arent Fox law firm, said Peters' strategy, while intriguing, is unlikely to change the course of class-action litigation.

"In the class-action, the potential claimants don't have to do anything," Jacoby said. "It's designed to be an efficient way for a court to handle multiple claims of the same type."

He also questioned her criticism of class-action lawyers for the fees they receive. Jacoby, who handles such cases, said lawyers who take on the multiple clients involved do extensive work _ sometimes spanning years _ and are not in it just for money.

[troll.me image 286x305]

CSS?

I'm a class representative in a case involving a debt management company. There's not any money in being a class member, that's for sure. Moral of the story: Keep all your documentation if you feel you've been wronged, and you can be a representative instead of just a member.

/Class rep check $45,000, two all expense paid trips to NYC and one to Baltimore. Class xlaimant check: $54.

Splinshints: I love the whining about the lawyers cleaning up in these things.

Joining an existing class action generally requires exactly no more effort than filling out a short application form and putting it back in the mail. You usually don't even have to hunt the form down yourself, it usually gets mailed to you without you having to ask for it.

If you're going to be that epically lazy about collecting your "damages" I fail to see how you're at all justified in whining that all you get are the meager scraps the lawyers choose to throw your way. You literally did nothing more than mail a letter. I'd say two hundred bucks for waddling your fat ass down the driveway and back is a pretty good deal.

/ if you don't like it, feel free to opt out and get your own lawyer or do what this woman did, you're not obligated to join the class action


I love understand the whining about the lawyers cleaning up in these things.

Getting others to Joining join an existing class action generally requires exactly no more effort than having them filling fill out a short application form and putting it back in the mail. You usually don't even have to hunt the form meet with the client down yourself, it you usually get something mailed to you without you having to ask for it.

Satanic_Hamster: Splinshints: That said, it's probably quite unlikely Honda would bother showing up instead of just settling unless they were worried this could turn into a trend and they need to make an example of her to prevent other people from going this route. Sending a $500/hr corporate lawyer on a road trip to represent the company in small claims court isn't exactly a judicious use of resources for a company that large.

Firm that large has lawyers on salary that they can use for this.


Actually, it seems not. FTFA:

The upside of Peters' unusual move, she says, is that litigants are not allowed to have lawyers argue in small claims court in California. This means any award will not be diluted by attorney's fees. Honda would have to appoint a non-lawyer employee to argue its side in court.

Mark Ratner: He also questioned her criticism of class-action lawyers for the fees they receive. Jacoby, who handles such cases, said lawyers who take on the multiple clients involved do extensive work _ sometimes spanning years _ and are not in it just for money.

Only a lawyer (or a politician I guess) can lie like that. Takes years of training.

indylaw: If a firm estimates that they're going gross $8 million in a case, they may budget $4 million for costs, overhead and wages. If they settle a case for a value that only gets them $2 million, that sounds like a lot of money, but the firm's partners have taken a hit.

Meh I wish you had some actual numbers. I disagree with your assertion that a law firm losing their ass in a class action suit wouldn't make for a good story.

I don't really have a feeling either way about class action lawsuits and the payouts thereof, I'm just critiquing your argument. I would stick to the "hard work" angle over the "risk angle." I have a feeling that most firms don't engage in these things until they're pretty sure it's a slam dunk. I believe that there is probably some risk, but think the risk reward ratio is so far off as to not make that a good argument.

Your federal government sets fuel economy numbers for ALL vehicles in America - NOT HONDA. So, sue the federal government for overstating the mpg - not Honda for lobbying (aka: paying off) government officials to overstate the fuel economy of their hybrid. Oh yeah, that's absolutely legal in your "land of the free" country. So suck it like the rest.

Class Action Lawsuits = Fill up the courts and fill the pockets of dirtbag lawyers: That point is spot on.

Splinshints: That said, it's probably quite unlikely Honda would bother showing up instead of just settling unless they were worried this could turn into a trend and they need to make an example of her to prevent other people from going this route. Sending a $500/hr corporate lawyer on a road trip to represent the company in small claims court isn't exactly a judicious use of resources for a company that large.

More likely than not, Honda's in-house legal department will contact a firm it has on retainer in whatever state the small claims action is brought and outsource the defense to a defense lawyer doing commodity work - $150/hour for easy volume work in his own town. He'll put in maybe 10 billable hours including phone calls and the small claims trial. Most of the research work is done for him in defense of the big class action, so he files a few essentially boilerplate motions to get the case dismissed and shows up at court if necessary to be the face.

These companies don't sent out their big law firm affiliates to deal with everyday repos and collection cases. They reach out to a mercenary army of local law firms that do simple work for peanuts.

Splinshints: Zizzowop: How does she prove her gas mileage sucks? Couldn't Honda make the case that she just drives with a heavy foot, and therefore gets lousy mileage?

Small claims courts don't exactly have an enormous burden of proof, but, yes, if Honda showed up and made this argument it's entirely possible her cunning plan could blow up in her face and she'd get nothing or, worse, wind up having to pay Honda's expenses.

That said, it's probably quite unlikely Honda would bother showing up instead of just settling unless they were worried this could turn into a trend and they need to make an example of her to prevent other people from going this route. Sending a $500/hr corporate lawyer on a road trip to represent the company in small claims court isn't exactly a judicious use of resources for a company that large.

Can't have representation in small claims court.

Honda will just send some hottie with big tits. Judges like big tits.

meanmutton: Oh, come on, you know as well as anyone that cases like this one are ones where the company that farked up arranges to pay off one token claimant and one law firm in order to buy immunity from a huge class of people who are unlikely to ever hear about the suit until after the opt-out date occurs.

I fail to see where you think you're going with this argument. If you thought you were damaged and didn't know about the class action you'd have sued on your own anyway. If you couldn't sue on your own and didn't hear about the class action in time the whole thing was a push. The worst that happens, assuming your unsupported assertion is even true, is that people who were never going to try and get anything anyway don't get anything.

And it has little do with the comment I made anyway because I didn't say anything about the defendant's motivation in these suits, I commented on the absurdity of people whining about the take of the lawyers when all the plaintiffs who join have to do is mail a letter to collect their award.

Oh yeah, give me the name of that $500/hr lawyer. Our corporate lawyer charges $700/hr, with a three hour minimum.

Shazam999: Can't have representation in small claims court.

You can in every place I'm aware of. The little guys usually don't because it doesn't make sense to hire a lawyer over a $5000 claim when it will likely cost twice that to put on a strong case from scratch.

I've represented a Florida town in small claims in defense against a frivolous housing authority lawsuit. It's silly, but the town needs someone in court.

Business entities and municipalities can't even represent themselves without an attorney, whether in small claims or federal district court.

Shazam999: Can't have representation in small claims court.

I don't think that's true in every jurisdiction, but even if it is, the company has to send someone to represent them if they intend to defend themselves, who would it be if not somebody from the legal team? They're not going to send the CEO's secretary.

indylaw: Shazam999: Can't have representation in small claims court.

You can in every place I'm aware of. The little guys usually don't because it doesn't make sense to hire a lawyer over a $5000 claim when it will likely cost twice that to put on a strong case from scratch.

I've represented a Florida town in small claims in defense against a frivolous housing authority lawsuit. It's silly, but the town needs someone in court.

Business entities and municipalities can't even represent themselves without an attorney, whether in small claims or federal district court.

FTA:

"The upside of Peters' unusual move, she says, is that litigants are not allowed to have lawyers argue in small claims court in California. This means any award will not be diluted by attorney's fees. Honda would have to appoint a non-lawyer employee to argue its side in court."

Dunno if that's right or not. You 'mericans with your "constitutions" and "amendments".

satanorsanta: Heather Peters says her car never came close to getting the promised 50 miles per gallon, and as its battery deteriorated, it was getting only 30 mpg.

That is pretty poor mileage for any civic, let alone a hybrid. My 2006 Nissan Sentra consistently gets 34 mpg without being a hybrid. I think the car is either worse than a standard civic or she is a liar/heavy footed driver

This, Hell i get 34 mpg in my 20 yr old civic and get pasted by lead footed hybrid drivers all the time.

Shazam999: "The upside of Peters' unusual move, she says, is that litigants are not allowed to have lawyers argue in small claims court in California. This means any award will not be diluted by attorney's fees. Honda would have to appoint a non-lawyer employee to argue its side in court."

Dunno if that's right or not. You 'mericans with your "constitutions" and "amendments".

Sounds like something that is determined by the state.

The Homer Tax: indylaw: If a firm estimates that they're going gross $8 million in a case, they may budget $4 million for costs, overhead and wages. If they settle a case for a value that only gets them $2 million, that sounds like a lot of money, but the firm's partners have taken a hit.

Meh I wish you had some actual numbers. I disagree with your assertion that a law firm losing their ass in a class action suit wouldn't make for a good story.


I can think of two good books that deal with this off the top of my head...

Shazam999: FTA:

"The upside of Peters' unusual move, she says, is that litigants are not allowed to have lawyers argue in small claims court in California. This means any award will not be diluted by attorney's fees. Honda would have to appoint a non-lawyer employee to argue its side in court."

Dunno if that's right or not. You 'mericans with your "constitutions" and "amendments".

That's why I said "states I'm aware of." I don't know how things are run in America's hat (a very snazzy and friendly hat, BTW. Thank you for Tim Horton's and Kids in the Hall), but each state, the District of Columbia, overseas territory, possession and commonwealth (i.e., Puerto Rico) has its own judicial system in parallel to the federal system of courts. Each state (etc.) gets to decide the structure of its courts and the procedures followed by those courts (unless something violates the federal right to due process). What's true in Florida courts may not be in California.

It surprises me that California mandates that someone who is not a hired attorney appear on behalf of a corporation or a town in small-claims court. The general rule in most states is that the only people that can appear in court to argue your case are attorneys (practicing law without a license is generally a felony), or yourself, if you're an individual.

satanorsanta: Heather Peters says her car never came close to getting the promised 50 miles per gallon, and as its battery deteriorated, it was getting only 30 mpg.

That is pretty poor mileage for any civic, let alone a hybrid. My 2006 Nissan Sentra consistently gets 34 mpg without being a hybrid. I think the car is either worse than a standard civic or she is a liar/heavy footed driver


I wouldn't be surprised about the poor mileage. Batteries and complicated power trains (and most people drive automatic cars, so add in all the weight for the automatic transmission) add a lot of weight and often the car companies use an really small, underpowered engines in the hybrids. This is generally ok becuase people don't expect great performance when trading in for gas mileage.

If the battery doesn't work..... then you're stuck with all this dead weight and an underpowered engine that struggles just to get the car moving. You could easily see sub-par performance compared to a similar manual transmission model.

StephenFalken: @Fissile:
Was your claim worth more than $0.35? Would you have brought suit yourself?
Why didn't you opt out?
Basically, you got $0.35 more than you otherwise would have, so why does it matter that the lawyers got paid for the time and expense they put in on your behalf?

When did me start @@ing.

/bad @titude

Shazam999: Oh yeah, give me the name of that $500/hr lawyer. Our corporate lawyer charges $700/hr, with a three hour minimum.

You sound like you're in New York.

Wait a second, is she suing HONDA over the numbers the EPA ASSIGNED to the car? What kind of bulldonkey is that?

She must be driving like an absolute tard to get 30mpg, I get nearly that in my 21 year old BMW.