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(Sun Sentinel)   Gynecologists opening minds, orifices for transgender patients   (sun-sentinel.com ) divider line 277
    More: Interesting, Lesbian Task Force, Hippocratic Oath, gender equality, S.F. Makalani-MaHee, patients, preventive care  
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7214 clicks; posted to Main » on 03 Jan 2012 at 11:12 AM (4 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-01-03 01:08:32 PM  

Theaetetus: Look up XX male syndrome


Ok. Couple of things:

XX male syndrome (also called de la Chapelle syndrome, for a researcher who characterized it in 1972[1]) is a rare sex chromosomal disorder. Usually it is caused by unequal crossing over between X and Y chromosomes during meiosis in the father, which results in the X chromosome containing the normally-male SRY gene. When this X combines with a normal X from the mother during fertilization, the result is an XX male.

Standard XX karyotype in two tissues (with at least one, or both, containing the male SRY gene)

XX males have two X chromosomes, with one of them containing genetic material from the Y chromosome, making them phenotypically male; they are genetically female but otherwise appear to be male.


So, not a normal X chromosome, it actually contains parts of the Y, and thus falls under the umbrella of abnormal chromosomes, which I already mentioned in an earlier post. Also, 10%? You sure about that?


XX male syndrome is listed as a "rare disease" by the Office of Rare Diseases (ORD) of the National Institutes of Health (NIH). This means that XX male syndrome, or a subtype of XX male syndrome, affects less than 200,000 people in the US population.


Current US population is 311 million people.

/It was my understanding that there would be no math.
 
2012-01-03 01:17:01 PM  

FarkinHostile: Also, 10%? You sure about that?


The astute reader will note that the 10% figure did not refer to XX male syndrome, but other syndromes in which SRY (or more properly, the testis-determining factor) can occur on other chromosomes entirely. The studies are in their infancy and to be taken with a grain of salt, but take a look for stories on the disappearing y chromosome - this has been a topic for the past 3-4 years.
 
2012-01-03 01:18:15 PM  
He certainly cuts a ridiculous figure as a woman.
 
2012-01-03 01:18:18 PM  

feffer: It's like people can't wrap their minds around FtM transgendered people.


Yeah. But how much would you like to bet the same folks would comprehend a shemale being treated for having a severed penis?

It's like Misogyny and Homophobia all wrapped up in one neat, appalling little package, innit?
 
2012-01-03 01:25:19 PM  
The article's webpage is not loading for me,but I assume the issue is if Chaz Bono wanted a pap smear, an ethical ob/gyn would be glad to run the procedure without insisting he ID as a proper lady in his office or get out.
 
2012-01-03 01:26:05 PM  

tb tibbles: an ethical ob/gyn


Therein lies the problem.
 
2012-01-03 01:32:02 PM  
The problem with Transgender isn't the morals or the physics, it's the grammar...
 
2012-01-03 01:33:01 PM  
Sweet Jesus on a stick, they found one of the most disfigured TSes out there. She looks worse than Jocelyn Wildenstein.

Need some eye bleach in this thread:

images51.fotki.com
images22.fotki.com
images51.fotki.com
images42.fotki.com

/yes, those are all traps
 
2012-01-03 01:36:20 PM  

Theaetetus: Flakeloaf: Theaetetus: Flakeloaf: No, because people like me know the difference between sex and gender.

Uh, no, you don't: Flakeloaf: Men who are born with a vagina and a cervix are called girls.

So infants have gender identity now?

Your sex and gender don't have to agree, but when you have anatomy that requires attention from a medical specialist then you have to accept certain facts, like how OB/GYNs are qualified to examine and assess the condition of your vagina and uterus regardless of your GLBTWTFBBQ status, like Giltric said:

Giltric: I can call my F350 a Ferrarri but I still have to take it to the Ford dealership.

If you don't have anatomy that would be of interest to an OB/GYN, you don't waste time in their office asking them to examine your nonexistent parts. If the bits you were born with have been adjusted to conform with your gender identity, the doctors responsible will advise you of the right person to talk to about any issues.

Yes, but that has nothing to do with gender.
Contrary to what you said, men who are born with a vagina and a cervix are called men. Their sexual characteristics - which are of importance to the OB/GYN - are independent from their gender - which is not.


Thank you for fighting the ignorant hordes today.

Now, for those of you insisting to the bitter end that, despite everything we know about gender identity, it is and always must be aligned perfectly with physical sex, I wonder why you want to erect barriers around gender to keep some people out. What's in it for you? What's your stake here? Some people live this reality where their mental gender and lifelong sense of self is different from their physical sex, and take steps to bring the two in line, and usually are much happier for it. Now ask yourself why you would even give the slightest fark about that. Or I'll ask you, because I don't understand why you would give the slightest fark about that.
 
2012-01-03 01:38:07 PM  

Theaetetus: FarkinHostile: Also, 10%? You sure about that?

The astute reader will note that the 10% figure did not refer to XX male syndrome, but other syndromes in which SRY (or more properly, the testis-determining factor) can occur on other chromosomes entirely. The studies are in their infancy and to be taken with a grain of salt, but take a look for stories on the disappearing y chromosome - this has been a topic for the past 3-4 years.


None of that invalidates the facts that A) It's conjecture using dubious data and B) Abnormal chromosomes have already been covered.
 
2012-01-03 01:39:19 PM  

bobbette: Now, for those of you insisting to the bitter end that, despite everything we know about gender identity, it is and always must be aligned perfectly with physical sex,


Read the whole thread, must have missed that.
 
2012-01-03 01:39:44 PM  

Dinjiin: Sweet Jesus on a stick, they found one of the most disfigured TSes out there. She looks worse than Jocelyn Wildenstein.

Need some eye bleach in this thread:

[images51.fotki.com image 280x480]
[images22.fotki.com image 280x390]
[images51.fotki.com image 280x420]
[images42.fotki.com image 280x420]

/yes, those are all traps


1 and 2 are definitely traps. 3 and 4 are two-beer-buzz traps.
 
2012-01-03 01:43:01 PM  

FarkinHostile: bobbette: Now, for those of you insisting to the bitter end that, despite everything we know about gender identity, it is and always must be aligned perfectly with physical sex,

Read the whole thread, must have missed that.


Giltric: If he has a vag he is a she.

 
2012-01-03 01:45:18 PM  

tb tibbles: The article's webpage is not loading for me,but I assume the issue is if Chaz Bono wanted a pap smear, an ethical ob/gyn would be glad to run the procedure without insisting he ID as a proper lady in his office or get out.


That is exactly it. And also not make assumptions that people with vaginas, no matter how they identify, must always be having sex with people with penises, no matter how they identify.

This is a huge issue for the queer community as a whole, lesbians are also less likely to go to the gyno because of (too often-realized) fears that medical professionals won't exactly be... professional about sexual orientation. And then there's this really common exchange

Dr. Farking Idiot: Are you sexually active? How about some birth control pills?
A: Actually I'm in a monogamous long-term relationship with a woman so I don't need-
Dr. Farking Idiot: Well, are you using condoms regularly? If not and you don't want to be starting a family yet, birth control pills could be very effective for you.
A: Um, what?
Dr. Farking Idiot: I'll just write you a prescription. I think I saw you're not a smoker, so don't you worry about that risk of stroke
 
2012-01-03 01:46:31 PM  

FarkinHostile: Theaetetus: FarkinHostile: Also, 10%? You sure about that?

The astute reader will note that the 10% figure did not refer to XX male syndrome, but other syndromes in which SRY (or more properly, the testis-determining factor) can occur on other chromosomes entirely. The studies are in their infancy and to be taken with a grain of salt, but take a look for stories on the disappearing y chromosome - this has been a topic for the past 3-4 years.

None of that invalidates the facts that A) It's conjecture using dubious data and B) Abnormal chromosomes have already been covered.


Sure, but (i) huge error bars on data does not mean said data doesn't exist, merely that statistics must be taken with a grain of salt; and (ii) this was merely to expand your mind beyond the "all XX are female, all XY are male, and there are some rare abnormalities like XXY and XXX that nonetheless follow the Y=male rule". That "rule" is not a rule at all. The chromosome is a very coarse level of granularity for something that's determined at the gene level.
 
2012-01-03 01:49:59 PM  

Theaetetus: FarkinHostile: bobbette: Now, for those of you insisting to the bitter end that, despite everything we know about gender identity, it is and always must be aligned perfectly with physical sex,

Read the whole thread, must have missed that.

Giltric: If he has a vag he is a she.



Eh, that's a pretty weak interpretation from that post. Sort of says the same thing I did. I have no problems with someone identifying as the opposite sex, but it doesn't change their actual biology. I will call them "He" out of respect and being polite, but to me their are still biologically female. Are they any less of a person? No, not at all. Are they male? No, not at all.

Humans...such hubris.
 
2012-01-03 01:51:35 PM  

Theaetetus: FarkinHostile: bobbette: Now, for those of you insisting to the bitter end that, despite everything we know about gender identity, it is and always must be aligned perfectly with physical sex,

Read the whole thread, must have missed that.

Giltric: If he has a vag he is a she.

Hey Babe, Take A Walk On The Wild Side,
Said Hey Honey, Take A Walk On The Wild Side.

 
2012-01-03 01:53:24 PM  

Dinjiin: Sweet Jesus on a stick, they found one of the most disfigured TSes out there. She looks worse than Jocelyn Wildenstein.

Need some eye bleach in this thread:

[images51.fotki.com image 280x480]
[images22.fotki.com image 280x390]
[images51.fotki.com image 280x420]
[images42.fotki.com image 280x420]

/yes, those are all traps


Damn you! Stop making me gay.
 
2012-01-03 01:54:06 PM  

FarkinHostile: Eh, that's a pretty weak interpretation from that post.


Um. There's nothing left to the imagination there, I'd say. Nothing to "interpret". He said that a man with female bits is a she- end of story.

It's also a lot more complicated than that, even biologically, in truth.

FarkinHostile: Humans...such hubris.


Particularly when defending bogus preconceptions they have, yes.
 
2012-01-03 01:56:54 PM  
The problem I see here isnt that transgendered people are less than people, or immoral in any way, but rather that political correctness has clouded the issue of what is most definitely a legitimate mental illness. Identity is not gender. I am a 19 year-old woman who feels trapped in a 38-year old body. Or wait, do I just wish my body were younger than what it is? We ALL wish our physical appearance were different from what it is at times. When we become obsessed with these differences we aren't bad people, but we need a therapist, not a surgeon.

Check out this site: http://www.sexchangeregret.com/research.

Lots of research shows that this political correctness insanity is hurting transgenders, not helping. I agree that transgenders shouldn't be victims of hate crimes or abuse, but NOBODY on this thread is suggesting that. The fact that so many transgendered consider people pointing out the biological fact that XX = female and XY = male points to a complete break from reality. Nobody cares if an XY biological male acts feminine, is attracted to men, or wants to wear dresses. It's the insistence that we have to lie and call them "she" instead of just being able to accept them as men (usually gay men) with culturally defined feminine tastes that's the problem. You say that body parts don't make the gender, then insist that your body parts be changed to define your gender. This makes no sense!!

Now excuse me while I go demand to get the birthdate on my driver's license and birth certificate legally changed to reflect the teenage body I feel in my mind I am meant to be in, rather than the middle-aged one I have found myself trapped in. Anyone who opposes me will be branded as a bigot and obviously youth-phobic.
 
2012-01-03 01:57:56 PM  

Theaetetus: FarkinHostile: Theaetetus: FarkinHostile: Also, 10%? You sure about that?

The astute reader will note that the 10% figure did not refer to XX male syndrome, but other syndromes in which SRY (or more properly, the testis-determining factor) can occur on other chromosomes entirely. The studies are in their infancy and to be taken with a grain of salt, but take a look for stories on the disappearing y chromosome - this has been a topic for the past 3-4 years.

None of that invalidates the facts that A) It's conjecture using dubious data and B) Abnormal chromosomes have already been covered.

Sure, but (i) huge error bars on data does not mean said data doesn't exist, merely that statistics must be taken with a grain of salt; and (ii) this was merely to expand your mind beyond the "all XX are female, all XY are male, and there are some rare abnormalities like XXY and XXX that nonetheless follow the Y=male rule". That "rule" is not a rule at all. The chromosome is a very coarse level of granularity for something that's determined at the gene level.



Once again, rare chromosomal abnormalities are an exception to the rule, and it is a rule. I see you keep glossing over that even though I have repeated it numerous times.

To my knowledge, the vast majority of transgendered people have a normal 23 pair of either type, including the subject of the article. That is who we are discussing. The next thread that involves ABNORMAL CHROMOSOMES and their bearing on sex and gender identity, bring it up. That will be a good discussion.
 
2012-01-03 01:59:37 PM  

wicked_sprite: but rather that political correctness has clouded the issue of what is most definitely a legitimate mental illness.


Funny, when the ball was in the Psychologist's court (circa-late 1960's- WELL before "politically correct" was even a thing), they deemed that Religious mores were interfering with what they knew to be empirically true.

They were also absolutely right. But anyway...
 
2012-01-03 02:04:56 PM  

SkunkWerks: FarkinHostile: Eh, that's a pretty weak interpretation from that post.

Um. There's nothing left to the imagination there, I'd say. Nothing to "interpret". He said that a man with female bits is a she- end of story.

It's also a lot more complicated than that, even biologically, in truth.



The problem is I agree that regardless of

SkunkWerks: FarkinHostile: Eh, that's a pretty weak interpretation from that post.

Um. There's nothing left to the imagination there, I'd say. Nothing to "interpret". He said that a man with female bits is a she- end of story.

It's also a lot more complicated than that, even biologically, in truth.



The problem is that "She" is gender identity, not biological sex. I disagree that a man with female parts is a male, but I will call them by the "she" pronoun if they so desire. But it doesn't change their biological sex.


Particularly when defending bogus preconceptions they have, yes.


Please. Most of my opinion on this topic has been formulated over the past 10 years or so after hundreds of threads here and many discussions with real live people in the GLBTG community.
 
2012-01-03 02:07:30 PM  

FarkinHostile: The problem is that "She" is gender identity, not biological sex. I disagree that a man with female parts is NOT a male, but I will call them by the "she" pronoun if they so desire. But it doesn't change their biological sex.

 
2012-01-03 02:09:37 PM  
I can't believe these "doctors" actually humor these sexually confused idiots who think they can change their sex without changing their DNA. They should all have their licenses revoked.

God our society is so farked.
 
2012-01-03 02:11:04 PM  

Theaetetus: And that's starting to change, thanks to organizations like the ACOG. Don't want to treat people? Then get the fark out of medicine, dickbag. You have to renew your license sometime, and that may get a wee bit tougher.



The American Congress of Obstetricians and Gynecologists doesn't license anyone. Licensure is done by the individual state medical boards. Heck, the ACOG doesn't even provide board certification, as that falls to the American Board of Obstetricians and Gynecologists.

/knows the difference between professional society, board certification, and medical licensure.
 
2012-01-03 02:13:08 PM  

wicked_sprite: The problem I see here isnt that transgendered people are less than people, or immoral in any way, but rather that political correctness has clouded the issue of what is most definitely a legitimate mental illness. Identity is not gender. I am a 19 year-old woman who feels trapped in a 38-year old body. Or wait, do I just wish my body were younger than what it is? We ALL wish our physical appearance were different from what it is at times. When we become obsessed with these differences we aren't bad people, but we need a therapist, not a surgeon.


Not applicable. Reductio ad absurdum.

Check out this site: http://www.sexchangeregret.com/research.

Incredibly small minority. Outliers. It could be that those individuals weren't screened responsibly. It could be that they don't pass as well as they hoped to and had unreasonable expectations to start with.

Lots of research shows that this political correctness insanity is hurting transgenders, not helping. I agree that transgenders shouldn't be victims of hate crimes or abuse, but NOBODY on this thread is suggesting that. The fact that so many transgendered consider people pointing out the biological fact that XX = female and XY = male points to a complete break from reality. Nobody cares if an XY biological male acts feminine, is attracted to men, or wants to wear dresses. It's the insistence that we have to lie and call them "she" instead of just being able to accept them as men (usually gay men) with culturally defined feminine tastes that's the problem. You say that body parts don't make the gender, then insist that your body parts be changed to define your gender. This makes no sense!!

It doesn't "make" the gender, it helps the body (and society) conform to one's true gender. It is true that political correctness is a double-edged sword and open to misuse and abuse.

Protip: "Transgendered" is a bogus word, despite what the dictionaries say. "Transgender" is already an adjective. Would you call someone "homosexualed"? Further, it is insulting to to use transsexual or transgender as a noun, it's akin to saying "he's a Chinese."

Now excuse me while I go demand to get the birthdate on my driver's license and birth certificate legally changed to reflect the teenage body I feel in my mind I am meant to be in, rather than the middle-aged one I have found myself trapped in. Anyone who opposes me will be branded as a bigot and obviously youth-phobic.

[Babble]
 
2012-01-03 02:14:30 PM  
Hey, it's a TS thread on Fark, and as usual Theaetetus is destroying a lot of people who are too dumb to know they're being destroyed. Awesome.
 
2012-01-03 02:14:43 PM  

Theaetetus: Defining sex by the 26th chromosome is equally simplistic. It's mostly correct and a good teaching tool for high school biology, but if you get further in your studies, you find that it's really down to certain hormones, which can be activated either by the 26th chromosome or via genes on other chromosomes. Best guess based on small studies is that about 10% of XX people have male genitals, but you'd never know it unless you do a DNA test... which most people never do.


If we want to get technical, the status of chromosome 26 is one definition of sex ("chromosomal sex"). It may or may not match with homonal sex and phenotypic sex. Of course those may or may not match with gender. Thankfully, all 4 of those do normally match.
 
2012-01-03 02:15:59 PM  

FarkinHostile: Theaetetus: FarkinHostile: /XX? Female.
//XY? Male.

You know how when you started math in elementary school, they told you you couldn't take a big number from a small number, and then a few years later, they taught you about negative numbers? Or you know how they told you that you couldn't take a square root of a negative number, and then a few years later, they taught you about imaginary numbers?
Defining sex by the 26th chromosome is equally simplistic. It's mostly correct and a good teaching tool for high school biology, but if you get further in your studies, you find that it's really down to certain hormones, which can be activated either by the 26th chromosome or via genes on other chromosomes. Best guess based on small studies is that about 10% of XX people have male genitals, but you'd never know it unless you do a DNA test... which most people never do.


Here is the deal: As open minded as I am regarding GLBTG, in no way shape of form does identity trump biology. None, and I really don't care what the community wants or thinks about it. Think me a bigot if it makes you feel superior, but I have had this conversation face to face with my gay friends of both genders, as well as crossdressers who I know. It is very simple, if you have XX chromosomes in the 23rd pair, you are a female, ambiguous genitalia notwithstanding. XY? Male. Yes, there are very rare exceptions with abnormal chromosomes and/or ambiguous genitalia, and for them a simple male/female label is problematic, but for the VAST majority of transgendered people it is as simple as that.

I understand what they want, and I sympathize, but IMNSHO, if you are BORN male/female, no amount of surgery/treatment can change that. I will respect their wishes and call them by their preferred gender identity, but it is nothing more than that: an identity, similar to the Lizard man and Cat dude I posted. They are not cats, they are not lizards, and they are not their desired sex, no matter how much they wish i ...


That's great you feel so strongly about biology, because transsexuality IS biological: Link (new window)
 
2012-01-03 02:16:05 PM  

JPINFV: Theaetetus: And that's starting to change, thanks to organizations like the ACOG. Don't want to treat people? Then get the fark out of medicine, dickbag. You have to renew your license sometime, and that may get a wee bit tougher.


The American Congress of Obstetricians and Gynecologists doesn't license anyone. Licensure is done by the individual state medical boards. Heck, the ACOG doesn't even provide board certification, as that falls to the American Board of Obstetricians and Gynecologists.

/knows the difference between professional society, board certification, and medical licensure.


Never said they did, Sparky. They're advocating for changes in standards, which will eventually influence the state medical boards. That's why I said "starting to change" rather than "is now completely changed".

/also knows the difference, and doesn't automatically assume that no one else does
 
2012-01-03 02:18:28 PM  

wicked_sprite:
You say that body parts don't make the gender, then insist that your body parts be changed to define your gender. This makes no sense!!


Sex is defined by your physical makeup, if you have male parts, you are physically male. Gender is not defined in any way by your physical makeup. Gender is how your identify internally and is NOT binary. Gender is not male or female, but a composite of your characteristics.

Want to know something interesting, I happen to have an Identity disorder similar to GID. My sex is male (I have a penis). However, my gender is neutral and I would prefer to have neither male nor female parts... So what does that make me?
 
2012-01-03 02:18:43 PM  

elffster: At least they are not furries..

/yes I hate furries


We hate you too.
 
2012-01-03 02:18:55 PM  

Theaetetus: JPINFV: Theaetetus: And that's starting to change, thanks to organizations like the ACOG. Don't want to treat people? Then get the fark out of medicine, dickbag. You have to renew your license sometime, and that may get a wee bit tougher.


The American Congress of Obstetricians and Gynecologists doesn't license anyone. Licensure is done by the individual state medical boards. Heck, the ACOG doesn't even provide board certification, as that falls to the American Board of Obstetricians and Gynecologists.

/knows the difference between professional society, board certification, and medical licensure.

Never said they did, Sparky. They're advocating for changes in standards, which will eventually influence the state medical boards. That's why I said "starting to change" rather than "is now completely changed".

/also knows the difference, and doesn't automatically assume that no one else does


Also, it's "College," not "Congress."
 
2012-01-03 02:20:12 PM  

FarkinHostile: But it doesn't change their biological sex


Specify. Biology refers to a lot of things aside from genetics. If you want to get technical, having organs/structures that aren't biologically male may make a semantic difference there- regardless of how they got there.

If you want to say their "genetic" sex. Okay. fine. I gather you'll be blood-testing a lot of folks before assigning proper pronouns to them, but whatever floats your boat.

FarkinHostile: formulated over the past 10 years or so


Preconceptions don't have to be held for long to be preconceptions. They also don't have to be held long to be incorrect...

FarkinHostile: and many discussions with real live people in the GLBTG community.


A credit to you, to be sure, but once again: an independent factor from whether or not you are actually giving those people a fair shake. Being sympathetic is something many can manage, reserving judgement is a talent I find few can master, regardless of how much contact they've had with the parties they are to be reserving judgement regarding.
 
2012-01-03 02:22:49 PM  

The Kitchen Ninja: That's great you feel so strongly about biology, because transsexuality IS biological: Link (new window)



Ah. A Youtube video. That 's well over an hour long. And doesn't address anything in the first 2 minutes I have talked about.

Yes, I know peoples brains are wired differently. That's not what the discussion is about.
 
2012-01-03 02:25:14 PM  
Transgenderism is an Affectation
 
2012-01-03 02:27:36 PM  

Miss Nova: Hey, it's a TS thread on Fark, and as usual Theaetetus is destroying a lot of people who are too dumb to know they're being destroyed. Awesome.


I know, isn't it great?
 
2012-01-03 02:30:08 PM  

FarkinHostile: And doesn't address anything in the first 2 minutes I have talked about.

Yes, I know peoples brains are wired differently. That's not what the discussion is about.


Ah yes, the "I can't be bothered to learn facts, so my opinions are the only thing that count" argument. You brought up biology, and this is a lecture about biology, and the video is even set to start at the relevant point. So if this discussion is not about biology, why did you bring it up?
 
2012-01-03 02:30:19 PM  

letrole: Transgenderism is an Affectation


Affectation recapituates phylogeny.
 
2012-01-03 02:30:33 PM  

SkunkWerks: FarkinHostile: But it doesn't change their biological sex

Specify. Biology refers to a lot of things aside from genetics. If you want to get technical, having organs/structures that aren't biologically male may make a semantic difference there- regardless of how they got there.

If you want to say their "genetic" sex. Okay. fine. I gather you'll be blood-testing a lot of folks before assigning proper pronouns to them, but whatever floats your boat.


Read my posts. I've been clear, and don;t feel like repeating myself.

Preconceptions don't have to be held for long to be preconceptions. They also don't have to be held long to be incorrect...

Nor does having a different opinion mean you are correct. You have just as many "preconceptions" as I, it seems, just with a different conclusion.


A credit to you, to be sure, but once again: an independent factor from whether or not you are actually giving those people a fair shake. Being sympathetic is something many can manage, reserving judgement is a talent I find few can master, regardless of how much contact they've had with the parties they are to be reserving judgement regarding.

Well, as I done my share of thought on the topic, I have read a bit on it, I have discussed the topic with people here and IRL, and I have an opinion. I understand that you don't agree, and that's fine. Just don't think because you have a different opinion about such a complicated topic that you or anyone else is superior. It seems the only ones taking that kind of stance are those on your side, like Miss Nova.
 
2012-01-03 02:32:00 PM  

elffster: At least they are not furries..

/yes I hate furries


www.acparadise.com
th08.deviantart.net
www.motifake.com

Good God, man, all you had to do was ask. You don't have to play it off like that. We understand.
/Furry thread!
//At least a furry won't give you a sausage surprise when you get her back to the hotel.
///Not in my experience anyway...
 
2012-01-03 02:32:17 PM  

The Kitchen Ninja: Ah yes, the "I can't be bothered to learn facts, so my opinions are the only thing that count" argument. You brought up biology, and this is a lecture about biology, and the video is even set to start at the relevant point. So if this discussion is not about biology, why did you bring it up?


Did you bother to read my posts? Address a point, don't link to an hour and a half long lecture from some obscure professor.

YOU make a point. Lets see what YOU got.
 
2012-01-03 02:35:38 PM  

Theaetetus: Also, it's "College," not "Congress."


That's what I originally thought before I Googled it to make sure that I got the syn-text for the OB (i.e. obstetrics vs obstetricians) right.

Link (new window)
 
2012-01-03 02:36:00 PM  
halotosis Sex is defined by your physical makeup, if you have male parts, you are physically male. Gender is not defined in any way by your physical makeup. Gender is how your identify internally and is NOT binary. Gender is not male or female, but a composite of your characteristics.

So gender is how you feel about your biological sex? By your definition that is culturally defined. I am a biological XX woman but I don't like diamonds, chick flicks, or white wine. Should I have my clit surgically altered into a pseudo penis, or just accept the fact that I don't fit all of the culturally sanctioned stereotypes of what a woman should be. If you are a man and you like diamonds, chick flicks, and white wine, then enjoy them! Don't have surgery and call anyone who doesn't go along with your self-proclaimed she-ness a bigot for stating the obvious. I just love how when it comes to pink dolls and toy trucks it's all "gender is a social construct that's forcing our children into constricting gender roles" - unless apparently you are transgendered. Than gender is somehow innate and immune from criticism.

Want to know something interesting, I happen to have an Identity disorder similar to GID. My sex is male (I have a penis). However, my gender is neutral and I would prefer to have neither male nor female parts... So what does that make me?

In need of a therapist. Seriously, if you wish you be a eunich you probably have a whole slew of issues and while you are probably a great person, you are in need of help. If you wanted your arm removed instead of your penis nobody would deny that you need therapy. Why is it when genitalia is involved it's suddenly different?
 
2012-01-03 02:36:50 PM  
And let me put this up here before we go any further with people muddying the waters to push an agenda:

sex
[seks] Show IPA
noun
1.
either the male or female division of a species, especially as differentiated with reference to the reproductive functions.
2.
the sum of the structural and functional differences by which the male and female are distinguished, or the phenomena or behavior dependent on these differences.
3.
the instinct or attraction drawing one sex toward another, or its manifestation in life and conduct.
4.
coitus.
5.
genitalia.
 
2012-01-03 02:38:16 PM  
I should have posted this in the NZ tampon ad thread-

"Where's it gonna gestate, Reg, in a box?"
 
2012-01-03 02:38:29 PM  

JPINFV: Theaetetus: Also, it's "College," not "Congress."

That's what I originally thought before I Googled it to make sure that I got the syn-text for the OB (i.e. obstetrics vs obstetricians) right.

Link (new window)


Huh. Conceded. Article is wrong.
 
2012-01-03 02:44:54 PM  

Miss Nova: Hey, it's a TS thread on Fark, and as usual Theaetetus is destroying a lot of people who are too dumb to know they're being destroyed. Awesome.


bobbette: Theaetetus: Flakeloaf: Theaetetus: Flakeloaf: No, because people like me know the difference between sex and gender.

Uh, no, you don't: Flakeloaf: Men who are born with a vagina and a cervix are called girls.

So infants have gender identity now?

Your sex and gender don't have to agree, but when you have anatomy that requires attention from a medical specialist then you have to accept certain facts, like how OB/GYNs are qualified to examine and assess the condition of your vagina and uterus regardless of your GLBTWTFBBQ status, like Giltric said:

Giltric: I can call my F350 a Ferrarri but I still have to take it to the Ford dealership.

If you don't have anatomy that would be of interest to an OB/GYN, you don't waste time in their office asking them to examine your nonexistent parts. If the bits you were born with have been adjusted to conform with your gender identity, the doctors responsible will advise you of the right person to talk to about any issues.

Yes, but that has nothing to do with gender.
Contrary to what you said, men who are born with a vagina and a cervix are called men. Their sexual characteristics - which are of importance to the OB/GYN - are independent from their gender - which is not.

Thank you for fighting the ignorant hordes today.

Now, for those of you insisting to the bitter end that, despite everything we know about gender identity, it is and always must be aligned perfectly with physical sex, I wonder why you want to erect barriers around gender to keep some people out. What's in it for you? What's your stake here? Some people live this reality where their mental gender and lifelong sense of self is different from their physical sex, and take steps to bring the two in line, and usually are much happier for it. Now ask yourself why you would even give the slightest fark about that. Or I'll ask you, because I don't understand why you would give the slightest fark about that.


I don't care what you call yourself. This isn't a case of I was born with a vag but choose to live life as a man and want to use the male restrooms at school. This is a case of people with this plumbing and people with that plumbing have different things that can affect them....swallow your pride and go see the proper Dr.

Cervical cancer doesn't know to refer to you as a man....and prostate cancer doesn't know you prefer to be called a woman. Wouldn't you feel much safer in regards to treatment if you had a vag but dressed like a man and had a OBGYN treat you instead of a Urologist?
 
2012-01-03 02:45:29 PM  
haotosis Want to know something interesting, I happen to have an Identity disorder similar to GID. My sex is male (I have a penis). However, my gender is neutral and I would prefer to have neither male nor female parts... So what does that make me?

As an afterthought, seriously should this really matter? I mean, much like my desire to be in a younger body than my actual one, what's stopping you from just living with it. Why not just act gender neutral? If you want to live like "Pat" from Saturday Night Live than just do it! If anyone gives you crap just tell them to go fark themselves. I mean, it's your life. It's the obsession over genitals that made me suggest a therapist, not your lack of identification with either male or female stereotypes. I don't feel like any less of a woman for hating "Pretty Woman" anymore than the stacks of stiletto heels and little black dresses in my closet make me feel like more of one.
 
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