brerrabbit: Actually, she is likely not a lousy gun owner, just one that did not check local gun laws.

Was she a likely threat? Was she going to go gang banging and do some drivebys?

No. She made a mistake and will be villified for it. Because NYC has to enforce its draconian gun laws or appear weak, an otherwise good citizen is taking a ride.

NYC's gun laws don't specify "no possession if you're going to go gang banging or do some drivebys." Either there's one rule that everyone follows and is applied equally, or there's an overreaching authority that determines which laws apply to which citizens. I prefer the former, because although I'm male, white, and wealthy and said authority would give me a pass on every law, I believe in justice.

Already had a thread on this, not going to re argue everything we just spent 350+ posts on.

But a new direction:
Anyone think that they wouldn't care about being lenient on her if she wasn't pretty and white?

Theaetetus: I'm male, white, and wealthy

And straight. Don't forget straight.

I am genuinely surprised. Most cops in NY are usually good at divining your intent and managing the situation.

But this goes to a larger question : how to interact with the legal system in a way least likely to get your ass detained. I was 'arrested' several months ago on a bench warrant. Why?

Because I'd not reported for jury duty in a state I've not lived in for five years.

... and it's not like I could check on line

ME: Hey CO, I just wanted to see if we're good
CO: Hell no we ain't 'good'. Your sad ass owes me two days of Jury duty.
ME: But I moved out five years ago.
CO: Oh? Really? Well, Have OR send me a a statement that you've paid taxes there and been a registered driver there for that period and it'll be taken care of.
ME: Thanks CO. You're so cool.
CO: No problem. It'd really suck if you would get pulled over for making an improper right on red, got arrested, had your car towed, and lost two or three days of vacation because we couldn't figure out that you'd moved out.
ME: You know it would really go a long way if you'd make it so that carrying my OR DL would let the cops waive the warrant.
CO: Wow. That's incredibly insightful! Then we could save lots of money and time.
ME: well, it was just an idea.

RexTalionis: From my earlier post in a redlit thread:

"Shouldn't any responsible gun owner know enough to check the local gun laws of the places they go? I mean, seriously, this a good hour of the NRA certification course I took. It's just one of those things you should know to do, like keeping your fingers off the goddamn trigger unless you're firing or not pointing the barrel at somebody unless you intend to shoot.

It's her fault for being a lousy owner. Ignorantia juris non excusat."

Right, because saying it in Latin makes a 3 1/2 year jail sentence for trying to do the right thing (i.e turn in her gun when she realized her mistake) is totally the right thing to do.

Was she in violation of the law? Yup. Should she be punished? Totally. By a multi-year stint in the pokey? Aw hell naw! A stiff fine would be all that's called for here.

Sometimes I don't think people realize how long a year is when they talk about jail. 3 1/2 years in a *really* long time. Basically a life ruin-er for this poor girl. If anything the dick-wad DA who decided to pursue this should be reprimanded.

Zero tolerance is a plague on the justice system (or wherever it's implemented). It always results in cases like this and you get bleats of "We're just following orders!" from those in power implementing those policies.

Minimum sentences suck too. I know! Lets take all discretion out of the system. Brilliant!

a) it was not a legal gun

b) the law is poorly designed

c) the police handled the situation badly

d) all of the above

rubi_con_man: ME: Hey CO, I just wanted to see if we're good
CO: Hell no we ain't 'good'. Your sad ass owes me two days of Jury duty.
ME: But I moved out five years ago.
CO: Oh? Really? Well, Have OR send me a a statement that you've paid taxes there and been a registered driver there for that period and it'll be taken care of.
ME: Thanks CO. You're so cool.
CO: No problem. It'd really suck if you would get pulled over for making an improper right on red, got arrested, had your car towed, and lost two or three days of vacation because we couldn't figure out that you'd moved out.
ME: You know it would really go a long way if you'd make it so that carrying my OR DL would let the cops waive the warrant.
CO: Wow. That's incredibly insightful! Then we could save lots of money and time.
ME: well, it was just an idea.

As an Oregon resident, I'd like to say that Oregon is, in fact, a big part of the problem. This state has horrendous common-sense policies regarding warrants, and has a horrible record of communication with authorities (police or otherwise) in other states. Not to mention, the laws here (and everywhere) regarding police impound are absurd, and even worse when it's a private contractor that does the impounding.

Theaetetus: brerrabbit: Actually, she is likely not a lousy gun owner, just one that did not check local gun laws.

Was she a likely threat? Was she going to go gang banging and do some drivebys?

No. She made a mistake and will be villified for it. Because NYC has to enforce its draconian gun laws or appear weak, an otherwise good citizen is taking a ride.

NYC's gun laws don't specify "no possession if you're going to go gang banging or do some drivebys." Either there's one rule that everyone follows and is applied equally, or there's an overreaching authority that determines which laws apply to which citizens. I prefer the former, because although I'm male, white, and wealthy and said authority would give me a pass on every law, I believe in justice.

Your belief in justice is contradicted by pretty much everything else you said.

Tennessee requires that you take a gun safety course before getting a permit to carry. In that course the various state reciprocity agreements are discussed. You are advised to know those before you take your gun out of state. This woman has no excuse for doing what she did.

Does she deserve jail time? No.

Is she an idiot? Yes.

If you don't have a legal permit, and shoot yourself in the leg, you deserve a few years in prison (looking at you, Plax).

If you're caught carrying a weapon from out of state and you don't acknowledge said weapon to an officer, we're talking jail.

If you give your legally registered weapon with out-of-state carry permit to an officer after realizing you are not supposed to have it on your person, you should not be charged with a crime. The weapon should be sent back to your home state by the authorities, at your cost. For turning in the weapon, no possession charges should be brought forth.

"ME: You know it would really go a long way if you'd make it so that carrying my OR DL would let the cops waive the warrant.
CO: Wow. That's incredibly insightful! Then we could save lots of money and time.
ME: well, it was just an idea."

/ why does Maine have an Oregonian driving permit?
// States' Rights and all

I eat mop: a) it was not a legal gun

b) the law is poorly designed

c) the police handled the situation badly

d) all of the above

Pretty much this.

There is a reason why Gun Control is no longer a real concern for the Democratic Party. Idiot laws + Idiot People = Stupid situations.

unyon: I've only driven through Oregon, but from what I've seen your problem might be this: You might want to hire a few more cops to pick up the slack.

No, we don't. We want cops to worry about the dangerous drivers, not the speeders (given Oregon has one of the lowest max speed limits in the west, particularly on non-interstate highways, and probably the lowest speed limit for the population density)... and, sadly, they're all too worried about the speeders, particularly on the freeway.

You know if the NRA/Gun Folks didn't stand up for Gilbert Arenas or plaxico burress or any of the other host of Rappers brought up on gun charges in the NorthEast, why are they fighting for this woman?

Why the hell did a cute girl from TN bring a gun with her on a job hunting trip? If she didn't get teh job, was she going to shoot someone in the face? WTF? She sounds like an idiot, and frankly if she was applying to medical school I wouldn't want someone with that kind of judgment working on me.

I admit the gun laws in NY are pretty stupid but there's no need. I've lived and worked in some of the most dangerous places in the US and I've never felt the need to carry a firearm.

I can't exactly blame the cops for arresting her, though. Who would want to be the guy who let a gun into the 9/11 Memorial? It's not like letting a kid with a gram of pot slide.

RexTalionis: From my earlier post in a redlit thread:

"Shouldn't any responsible gun owner know enough to check the local gun laws of the places they go? I mean, seriously, this a good hour of the NRA certification course I took. It's just one of those things you should know to do, like keeping your fingers off the goddamn trigger unless you're firing or not pointing the barrel at somebody unless you intend to shoot.

It's her fault for being a lousy owner. Ignorantia juris non excusat."

Perhaps, but from a proportionality standpoint the punishment doesn't fit the crime.

/I could say the same about our drug laws but that's for another thread.

brerrabbit: Blaming guns for the violence in NYC is much like blaming Rosie O'Donnels fork for her weight. While it's easy to blame the gun, it doesn't address a lot of underlying problems.

Arresting this woman did nothing but show the rest of the US another time how idiotic their gun laws are.

NY cops busted my nephew a few years ago for a gun possession charge. All he had was just the frame for an old revolver for his grandfather. No cylinder,hammer, or trigger assembly. Yup, just a mass shooting waiting to happen.

This. Blaming objects, or sinful "other" people, for the bad actions of people, or your own problems, is a very old superstition.

Violence is related more to cultural and social standards than the existence of any particular kind of object.

But changing culture is hard. Throwing blame around is easy. Just look at all to the various "War on (insert scapegoat here*)" throughout history. Whether objects or people, blaming others for your own failings is as old, and sad, as humanity.

/Eve, snakes, vapors, Jews, Heathens, Infidels, Marijuana, Demon Rum, Obama, Pornography, Birth Control, guns, gambling, Cathar's, Tutsis, Armenians, Red Indians, Bush, Successful-and-attractive-African_Americans, Bolsheviks, Gang of Four, Intellectuals, Gypsy's, Witches,...

This thread is starting to look frighteningly reasonable, with people conceding that both sides made mistakes and showed poor judgment.... I'm feeling lost and confused.

FubarBDilligaf: Theaetetus: brerrabbit: Actually, she is likely not a lousy gun owner, just one that did not check local gun laws.

Was she a likely threat? Was she going to go gang banging and do some drivebys?

No. She made a mistake and will be villified for it. Because NYC has to enforce its draconian gun laws or appear weak, an otherwise good citizen is taking a ride.

NYC's gun laws don't specify "no possession if you're going to go gang banging or do some drivebys." Either there's one rule that everyone follows and is applied equally, or there's an overreaching authority that determines which laws apply to which citizens. I prefer the former, because although I'm male, white, and wealthy and said authority would give me a pass on every law, I believe in justice.

Your belief in justice is contradicted by pretty much everything else you said.

Second definition of justice is the quality of being fair... and reasonable. Minimum judgments tend not be reasonable in some cases, but they are fair.

Don't bring your guns to NYC, it is a place were you can't take a right turn on red unless it the sign specifically gives you that right. It's a fair law, and reasonable when you consider how many NYers walk. NYC is America's attempt at Singapore, you give up rights to live in a gated community.

Anyways, what kind of moron carries a gun on her person in another state? In her trunk, I could understand, though it would still be illegal in NYC. Concealed-carrying permits are state specific.

brerrabbit: Kyle Butler: Tennessee requires that you take a gun safety course before getting a permit to carry. In that course the various state reciprocity agreements are discussed. You are advised to know those before you take your gun out of state. This woman has no excuse for doing what she did.

NYC sets its own gun laws. While I agree to knowing them by state that you are in, allowing cities and towns make their own gun laws makes this difficult.

Then again, whole constitutional argument, 2nd amendment, full faith and credit, yadda yadda yadda.

That's why state preemption has been important for gun rights. It's not always obvious when you're crossing into another town's limits, or even that of a larger city jurisdiction. If every town and city does it's own thing, it becomes a minefield for someone trying to obey the law, and it just discourages them from practicing their rights at all (which is the intent no doubt).

RexTalionis: From my earlier post in a redlit thread:

"Shouldn't any responsible gun owner know enough to check the local gun laws of the places they go? I mean, seriously, this a good hour of the NRA certification course I took. It's just one of those things you should know to do, like keeping your fingers off the goddamn trigger unless you're firing or not pointing the barrel at somebody unless you intend to shoot.

It's her fault for being a lousy owner. Ignorantia juris non excusat."

I have to agree. I don't pack heat in Ann Arbor or Chicago because of the gun laws (if you stray onto University property in AA with a concealed carry you can get in trouble). I strongly disagree with their laws and want to see them changed, but the gun stays home when I go to those places. Any responsible gun owner (who bothers to read even the basic news) should realize by now that large cities are assholes about carrying a gun. Same with state and federal property (wilderness parks being the exception). Don't carry it or leave it secured in your vehicle.

Jail and the like seems like a waste of society's resources, but she should eat a fine to remind to her to read the local laws. Possibly also for buying a Keltec (*starts gun nut flamewar*)

When I think Communist, I think of New York City.

I also have brain damage damage damamagegeg

Meredith Graves, 39, based on the fuzzy picture in the article, I'd like to show her my 9mm... I mean my 38...

She can only hope the DA will provide her with a good plea bargain, or the judge dumps the case.

phygz: [fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net image 600x450]

Silly woman doesn't know that a knife, such as the kitchen varieties she is most familiar with, is much better to have in a close-quarters combat situation with a rapist.

Eddie Adams from Torrance: 1. She's a farking moran for not bothering to check the law.

2. Zero tolerance / Minimum sentencing laws are bullshiat. Jail time for this woman is obviously overkill... make her pay a fine and clean up the garbage in the snow.

So you're saying that ... I should check all the laws all the time of every place I want to go? Holy crap. that's a lot of time wasted.

How about people just not be jackasses?

DarwiOdrade: phygz: [fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net image 600x450]

Great thought - it works for so many things: gay marriage, abortion, gun ownership. The list goes on and on.

That's the big difference between New York and Tennessee. In New York you can get an abortion within and hour but you can't own or carry a gun. In Tennessee any law abiding citizen can carry a gun but just try to get an abortion anywhere in the state.

"Under Mayor Bloomberg, New York's nothing like the Bible Belt, of course - it's much less civilized and much more repressive. And just like black people visiting the South in the 1930s, gun owners today need to realize that irrational prejudice and legal persecution are a risk when visiting these benighted places."

As long as some states look the other way at unregulated gun shows (where illegaly purchased guns often end up on the streets of cities like NYC) states like NY will go out of their way to arrest people from said pro-gun states for not following the law.

Ive never felt the need to assault, rape, or murder anyone. If obly everyone was like me, nobody would carry a gun. Unfortunately, not everyone is like me, just like not everyone is like you.

brerrabbit: Blaming guns for the violence in NYC is much like blaming Rosie O'Donnels fork for her weight. While it's easy to blame the gun, it doesn't address a lot of underlying problems.

Arresting this woman did nothing but show the rest of the US another time how idiotic their gun laws are.

NY cops busted my nephew a few years ago for a gun possession charge. All he had was just the frame for an old revolver for his grandfather. No cylinder,hammer, or trigger assembly. Yup, just a mass shooting waiting to happen.

Not so much blaming guns, as reducing the availability of tools that increase the effectiveness of violence.

Some percentage of people in every population are violent. Might be mental illness, drug use, or desperation caused by their socioeconomic status. It can never be fixed. If they can't get firearms, they will be less effective at harming others.

These laws won't stop people who want to cause a crime. Gun laws are pretty easy to go around if you put some thought into it. But it probably stops more random acts.

Kyle Butler: DarwiOdrade: phygz: [fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net image 600x450]

Great thought - it works for so many things: gay marriage, abortion, gun ownership. The list goes on and on.

That's the big difference between New York and Tennessee. In New York you can get an abortion within and hour but you can't own or carry a gun. In Tennessee any law abiding citizen can carry a gun but just try to get an abortion anywhere in the state.

Point gun at uterus. Take up slack. Problem solved.