ZAZ: It's not about corporations being legally special. It's about Congress retroactively approving the Bush administration's eavesdropping policy.

True...but that doesn't upset the hive nearly as much as CORPORATIONS ZOMGEVIL..

Not so much, Subby. This was about whether FISA is Constitutional. And yeah, it probably is... which begs the question of why the Bush administration had to go around the FISA court.

Diogenes: "It emphasized that electronic intelligence gathering depends in great part on cooperation from private companies ... and that if litigation were allowed to proceed against persons allegedly assisting in such activities, `the private sector might be unwilling to cooperate with lawful government requests in the future,'" Judge M. Margaret McKeown.

I think it's a mighty big presumption that the requests were lawful in the first place. They had the means to make lawful requests with retroactive warrants.

They expanded government power and made it "legal" after the fact.

Utter bullshiat.

Retroactive warrants are constitutionally troublesome.

Theaetetus: Not so much, Subby. This was about whether FISA is Constitutional. And yeah, it probably is... which begs the question of why the Bush administration had to go around the FISA court.

Because they could.

They also get stern warnings and small fines compared to people who commit similar crimes and serve 20 years in prison.
We should have a death penalty for corporations. Seize their assets like we do with drug dealers.
You know, corporations cause more suffering and break up more families than drug dealers due to their pursuit of shareholder pennies. We should be able to dismantle them and take all their assets and put them into the general operating fund for various governments.
Break up a few corporations to make an example and not only will we increase revenue but also scare the rest into behaving.

special20: I don't think it's gonna be in my lifetime, but I'm pretty sure that Americans will not continue to tolerate this kind of crap forever.

That depends. Can we keep our smart phones and our reality television?

special20: I don't think it's gonna be in my lifetime, but I'm pretty sure that Americans will not continue to tolerate this kind of crap forever.

Then you don't know Americans very well. The general public will look at this and go "Huh" and then go back to watching Storage Wars. America will be happy to live in an oligarchy as long as they continue to get their toys and entertainment.

ooga booga abortion
ooga booga gay marriage

So the 9th just legalized...I was only following orders/doing my job?

ooga booga Iran
ooga booga American Idol
ooga booga Super Bowl

special20: I don't think it's gonna be in my lifetime, but I'm pretty sure that citizens won't be considered Americans will not unless they continue to tolerate this kind of crap forever.

FTFM

there's not a prison bug enough in the world able to contain ATT

"We've always been at war with Eastasia"

So, I can't take video of a cop during a routine stop, but the government can request that telecoms turn over all my information?

I think it's time to encrypt everything.

We Americans deserve every future rifle butt to the groin we receive for sitting idly by and letting this happen.

We had it all and sold it to greedy people for cheap electronic trinkets made in foreign lands.

And we had the nerve to laugh at the Manhattan Native Americans ...

rev. dave: They also get stern warnings and small fines compared to people who commit similar crimes and serve 20 years in prison.
We should have a death penalty for corporations. Seize their assets like we do with drug dealers.
You know, corporations cause more suffering and break up more families than drug dealers due to their pursuit of shareholder pennies. We should be able to dismantle them and take all their assets and put them into the general operating fund for various governments.
Break up a few corporations to make an example and not only will we increase revenue but also scare the rest into behaving.

Actually, this should apply to political parties that try to prevent citizens from voting, also. Seize all their assets, everything and deposit it in the treasury.

BudTheSpud: Then you don't know Americans farkers very well. The general Farker will look only at this headline and RAGE UNCONTROLABLY THROUGH TEARS OF IMPOTENT FURY despite the fact that the headline is 100% wrong, pathetically insanely stupidly wrong. Farkers America will be happy to biatch that they live in an oligarchy because they are too stupid to read the god damn article

Don't any of you chicken littles EVER read the actual article?

kahnzo: So, I can't take video of a cop during a routine stop, but the government can request that telecoms turn over all my information?

I think it's time to encrypt everything.

What makes you think you're not legally obligated to turn over the key to said encryption when so ordered?

Diogenes: "It emphasized that electronic intelligence gathering depends in great part on cooperation from private companies ... and that if litigation were allowed to proceed against persons allegedly assisting in such activities, `the private sector might be unwilling to cooperate with lawful government requests in the future,'" Judge M. Margaret McKeown.

I think it's a mighty big presumption that the requests were lawful in the first place. They had the means to make lawful requests with retroactive warrants.

They expanded government power and made it "legal" after the fact.

Utter bullshiat.

So the people really at fault is the government but people want to biatch about the large corporations and how evil they are.

LouDobbsAwaaaay: kahnzo: So, I can't take video of a cop during a routine stop, but the government can request that telecoms turn over all my information?

You can't even bring a camera into the WI state capitol building anymore. It might accidentally go off and catch a republican breaking the law. You can bring a concealed handgun, though. Because that's safe. Unlike a camera.

You sure about that?

You are still limited as to where you can carry concealed.........do you have a citation or is this another one of your lies......

steamingpile: So the people really at fault is the government but people want to biatch about the large corporations and how evil they are.

Making a distinction between the two, I see. Cute.

Hypothetical Imperative: kahnzo: So, I can't take video of a cop during a routine stop, but the government can request that telecoms turn over all my information?

I think it's time to encrypt everything.

What makes you think you're not legally obligated to turn over the key to said encryption when so ordered?

"legal obligations" don't mean what they used to.

Diogenes: "It emphasized that electronic intelligence gathering depends in great part on cooperation from private companies ... and that if litigation were allowed to proceed against persons allegedly assisting in such activities, `the private sector might be unwilling to cooperate with lawful government requests in the future,'" Judge M. Margaret McKeown.

I think it's a mighty big presumption that the requests were lawful in the first place. They had the means to make lawful requests with retroactive warrants.

They expanded government power and made it "legal" after the fact.

Utter bullshiat.

To be fair, retroactive ratification of presidential actions to preserve national security aren't unprecedented. In 1861, the Maryland legislature was contemplating seceding from the union. Obviously, that posed an immediate threat to Washington D.C. itself. Lincoln had certain members of the Maryland legislature arrested, and he unilaterally suspended the writ of habeas corpus. The problem is that the Constitution expressly grants the power to suspend habeas corpus to Congress, but is silent on whether or when the president may do so. It wasn't until three years later that Congress passed a law retroactively ratifying Lincoln's suspension of habeas corpus.

BudTheSpud: special20: I don't think it's gonna be in my lifetime, but I'm pretty sure that Americans will not continue to tolerate this kind of crap forever.

Then you don't know Americans very well. The general public will look at this and go "Huh" and then go back to watching Storage Wars. America will be happy to live in an oligarchy as long as they continue to get their toys and entertainment.

Historically, I think that's true for almost any system of government that's in transition. As long as the people don't see to big a disruption in their daily lives, they'll ignore a lot of what goes on in politics. This is reinforced by a continuation of existing norms and homage to traditional processes; observe that the Roman emperors kept the Senate around and didn't start calling themselves "emperor" until quite some time after Augustus, who styled himself "first citizen".

The people, in general, simply don't care and just want to live their lives.

Diogenes: Scerpes: Retroactive warrants are constitutionally troublesome.

Considering the alternative, I'll take them. At least there's a paper trail.

You assume the choice is retroactive warrant or no warrant. I disagree.

The very nature of a warrant is to get judicial authority for a place to be searched and items to be searched for. If you're doing it after the fact, you're not getting authority for the search. You're reporting what you did.

The choice is warrant or no warrant.

bugontherug: The problem is that the Constitution expressly grants the power to suspend habeas corpus to Congress, but is silent on whether or when the president may do so. It wasn't until three years later that Congress passed a law retroactively ratifying Lincoln's suspension of habeas corpus.

At least the Constitution is clear about the circumstances under which habeas may be suspended, and in 1861 the United States was clearly in a state of insurrection.

sheilanagig: I'm already looking into countries which are actually democracies to depart to when the shiat hits the fan here. I'm guessing it will probably not be long now.

American democracy was great while it lasted. Now we have a group of marionettes running for president and corporate feudalism. It is no longer the land of opportunity unless you're willing to give up more than you could possibly gain.

You actually have to seek out opportunity.....you can't sit around and wait for opportunity to come looking for you.

It also helps if you have the ability to deal with opportunity as it presents itself.

sheilanagig: I'm already looking into countries which are actually democracies to depart to when the shiat hits the fan here. I'm guessing it will probably not be long now.

American democracy was great while it lasted. Now we have a group of marionettes running for president and corporate feudalism. It is no longer the land of opportunity unless you're willing to give up more than you could possibly gain.

gilgigamesh: Aarontology: At least they're being honest about huge companies being above the law as long as they serve the interests of the state against the people.

If only there were a word to describe this trend in America of the melding of corporate and state interests against those of the people.

Lobbying?