I'm rooting for American unions to organize Chinese workers.

/a man can dream.

Right to work, biatches!
AirForceVet: Typical. Blame the unions for American auto makers manufacturing crappy cars.

Sorry to burst the myth to you, but engineers design the crappy based on what the management directs as crappy. Union workers just put it together, especially when management and engineering ignore their inputs.

You know why the Big 3 have crappy engineers and crappy managers? Because the good managers and engineers went to work for Honda USA in exchange for less pay, more hours, and NO UAW.

Pretty sure there's still plenty of American auto industry left, but admitting it in a headline would draw considerably fewer clicks.

But will unionizing keep them foreign devil auto manufacturing executives out of Alabama jails for not showing proper identification papers to anti-immigrant police force?

Tourney3p0: Pretty sure there's still plenty of American auto industry left, but admitting it in a headline would draw considerably fewer clicks.

True, but all of the American auto industry is now in Mexico.
We only have the Japanese, German, and Korean auto industry here.

Let's not mention that the targeted Volkswagen plant is the company's only manufacturing plant in the world that doesn't have a union.

Or that German manufacturing labor costs are higher on average than the United States (new window).

Let's just turn this back on subby and his Republican cronies: Your man President Bush bailed out the financial firms that were run into the ground by vastly overpaid CEOs. When Obama took office he couldn't stop the enormous bonues doled out to failures because your man Bush didn't put any requirement to forgo bonuses as part of the bailout deal.

Meanwhile, under Obama, the UAW gave huge concessions when Chrysler and GM were bailed out. They now have a tow tier wage system with new hires making $14 an hour, less than half that of veteran workers. Also Obama fired the CEO and put someone new in.

Because Obama demanded concessions, the American auto industry is rebuliding and the UAW is slow rebuilding it's members pay and benefits. However, the big banks have not learned anything. Companies like Bank of America are even trying to shift Trillions of Dollars in liabilities to the tax paye (new window)r.

The labor unions have taken their lumps and are now working more cooperatively with the auto companies. Meanwhile, the Republican favored banks continue to be a parasite that threatens the health of the economy.

Sorry, Euro-trash American car haters and hippies...



But I can't hear you over how awesome 650hp/600lbs of torque sounds while producing it using baby-seal blood, the hoofs of endangered horses, and smog that will hopefully choke and kill your stupid Hybrid hipster/douche-bag rides.

beta_plus: Right to work, biatches!
AirForceVet: Typical. Blame the unions for American auto makers manufacturing crappy cars.

Sorry to burst the myth to you, but engineers design the crappy based on what the management directs as crappy. Union workers just put it together, especially when management and engineering ignore their inputs.

You know why the Big 3 have crappy engineers and crappy managers? Because the good managers and engineers went to work for Honda USA in exchange for less pay, more hours, and NO UAW.

Man, you consume and spew propaganda like a North Korean tour guide.

Unions didn't destroy America, greedy people did.

Why would you invite union organizers into your house? No thank you.

My grandparents were union members. The union bosses and management went on vacations together and apparently raided the pension fund, because with 90 years of work between them they got under $100/month when they retired.

There are probably some good unions out there, but most of them seem to be a pain in the patootie to work for and with.

fatalvenom: Sorry, Euro-trash American car haters and hippies...

[image.motortrend.com image 569x355]

But I can't hear you over how awesome 650hp/600lbs of torque sounds while producing it using baby-seal blood, the hoofs of endangered horses, and smog that will hopefully choke and kill your stupid Hybrid hipster/douche-bag rides.

You know, dear, it's possible to profess enjoyment of sports cars without making the rest of us fans look like douches.

Also, 'Stangs are reasonably fuel-efficient these days. Not so much as a Prius, I'm sure, but I think you'll have to upgrade to a Hummer if you really want douchebag points.

/learned to drive standard on Dad's '95 Mustang
//IT STARTS IN THIRD, POINTING UPHILL!
///laid rubber without meaning to, once

fatalvenom: Sorry, Euro-trash American car haters and hippies...

[image.motortrend.com image 569x355]

But I can't hear you over how awesome 650hp/600lbs of torque sounds while producing it using baby-seal blood, the hoofs of endangered horses, and smog that will hopefully choke and kill your stupid Hybrid hipster/douche-bag rides.

It handles like a pig and the average person will wonder why a grown man is driving a 12 thousand dollar teenage girl car. Whether you're driving it to satisfy yourself or impress others, both scenarios end in disappointment unless incredibly low standards are involved.

Tourney3p0: fatalvenom: Sorry, Euro-trash American car haters and hippies...

[image.motortrend.com image 569x355]

But I can't hear you over how awesome 650hp/600lbs of torque sounds while producing it using baby-seal blood, the hoofs of endangered horses, and smog that will hopefully choke and kill your stupid Hybrid hipster/douche-bag rides.

It handles like a pig and the average person will wonder why a grown man is driving a 12 thousand dollar teenage girl car. Whether you're driving it to satisfy yourself or impress others, both scenarios end in disappointment unless incredibly low standards are involved.

Do you want to know how I know that you know absolutely nothing about the newest Ford Mustang?

CmndrFish: Tourney3p0: fatalvenom: Sorry, Euro-trash American car haters and hippies...

[image.motortrend.com image 569x355]

But I can't hear you over how awesome 650hp/600lbs of torque sounds while producing it using baby-seal blood, the hoofs of endangered horses, and smog that will hopefully choke and kill your stupid Hybrid hipster/douche-bag rides.

It handles like a pig and the average person will wonder why a grown man is driving a 12 thousand dollar teenage girl car. Whether you're driving it to satisfy yourself or impress others, both scenarios end in disappointment unless incredibly low standards are involved.

Do you want to know how I know that you know absolutely nothing about the newest Ford Mustang?

Is anyone impressed by the new body Ford Mustang anymore?

Those things are a dime a dozen on the streets.

Also: it really is a teenage girl car.

Blabla stupid bullshiat GOP talking point, hand picked by Drew to be both full of shiat, but make anything that helps normal working people look bad.

Simple fact: American car companies make shiatTY PIECE OF shiat CARS with build in, by design fail times designed to force you to constantly sell your life in debt to be in a car that farking works.

When the auto industry in the US designs and builds cars that are designed and built to be tough and last, and be affordable, they will sell them.

But nope, it's 2012 and the same old same old. shiatty MPG. shiatty build quality with high early fail rates. shiatty hard plastics. What little parts of them are steel are shiatty American steel that rusts in about a week.

Sorry guys, it's not my duty to buy your ABJECT shiat. You make shiat cars.. shiat. I wouldn't drive one of those turds if Ford payed me.

TheGreatGazoo: Why would you invite union organizers into your house?

Yeah, the unions long ago destroyed BMW, Mercedes, Audi, Porsche and Volkswagen. Just look at how they ruined the German standard of living.

WTF are you pantywaist whiners insulting Stangs for?

TheGreatGazoo: Why would you invite union organizers into your house? No thank you.

My grandparents were union members. The union bosses and management went on vacations together and apparently raided the pension fund, because with 90 years of work between them they got under $100/month when they retired.

There are probably some good unions out there, but most of them seem to be a pain in the patootie to work for and with.

Just because they have been corrupted by greed does not mean we premises on which they are founded is wrong. Collective bargaining is more important than ever with the rise of the corporatism.

Our government is corrupt and bloated. Would you say that because of this the principles on which it was founded are flawed? No, the implementation has been hijacked by selfish greedy people out to make a buck at the expense of everyone else. Same with unions.

I love how it's always "the unions" fault that the American car companies produce piece of shiat after piece of shiat for 30 years.

It couldn't POSSIBLY be executives that should go back to Riti Sped's tardblog classroom to learn how to wipe their ass. Maybe hire someone that doesn't get chauferred to work by a slave to make executive decisions about automobiles.

Notabunny: TheGreatGazoo: Why would you invite union organizers into your house?

Yeah, the unions long ago destroyed BMW, Mercedes, Audi, Porsche and Volkswagen. Just look at how they ruined the German standard of living.

That's rather harsh. Sure, Greek unions are trying to kill Germany, but they haven't succeeded yet.

Why Yes I Am A Wizard: beta_plus: Right to work, biatches!
AirForceVet: Typical. Blame the unions for American auto makers manufacturing crappy cars.

Sorry to burst the myth to you, but engineers design the crappy based on what the management directs as crappy. Union workers just put it together, especially when management and engineering ignore their inputs.

You know why the Big 3 have crappy engineers and crappy managers? Because the good managers and engineers went to work for Honda USA in exchange for less pay, more hours, and NO UAW.

Man, you consume and spew propaganda like a North Korean tour guide.

Unions didn't destroy America, greedy people did.

Wow, you're incapable of reading anything but the Guardian. The UAW destroyed the Big 3 and foreign car makers make damn sure to avoid it all costs.

At UAW halls, they used to have signs that said only North American-built cars were allowed to park.

Then, the transplant factories arrived. The signs changed to allowing only cars designed and built in North America.

Then, the foreign automakers opened big engineering centers. Now the signs say what they meant all along: only union-built cars allowed.

The UAW built their reputation with their attitude, especially in the '70s and '80s. They've got decades to live down around here. Work rules enfaced inefficiency and strategic laziness. Manager touches a wrench: GRIEVANCE! Machine breaks? Can't fix it. That requires an electrician to flip the switch to turn the machine off. He'll be by in four hours while everyone else is paid to do nothing. (And if a manager dares try to, you know, just turn the stupid thing off and get on with it, GRIEVANCE! If not a fist to the mouth.)

Until the bailouts, they forced GM to keep thousands of workers on full pay to do nothing. It was a "jobs bank," you see. They'd show up for eight hours, play cards, and go home: full pay and benefits. (The cooler ones would clock in, then do charity work somewhere else during the work time.) And yes, it was forced; the UAW perfected a method of striking at only a few key, critical-component plants to get their way throughout the big 3. Since the companies had no real option of replacement workers (legally they could, but imagine the uproar if they actually tried), it was just legalized extortion.

Personally, I'd join a union if I worked the assembly line of an automaker. But I wouldn't want that union to be the UAW or the IAM.

beta_plus: Why Yes I Am A Wizard: beta_plus: Right to work, biatches!
AirForceVet: Typical. Blame the unions for American auto makers manufacturing crappy cars.

Sorry to burst the myth to you, but engineers design the crappy based on what the management directs as crappy. Union workers just put it together, especially when management and engineering ignore their inputs.

You know why the Big 3 have crappy engineers and crappy managers? Because the good managers and engineers went to work for Honda USA in exchange for less pay, more hours, and NO UAW.

Man, you consume and spew propaganda like a North Korean tour guide.

Unions didn't destroy America, greedy people did.

Wow, you're incapable of reading anything but the Guardian. The UAW destroyed the Big 3 and foreign car makers make damn sure to avoid it all costs.

No greedy people destroyed those companies. Their other affiliations are unrelated, despite what you have been indoctrinated to believe.

AirForceVet: Typical. Blame the unions for American auto makers manufacturing crappy cars.

Sorry to burst the myth to you, but engineers design the crappy based on what the management directs as crappy. Union workers just put it together, especially when management and engineering ignore their inputs.

And so the logical thing to do is organize the competition to fix the problem. Uh huh. Funny, I don't remember a single UAW strike that had the demand, "We want to build better cars!" nor does your explanation account for why it only seems to be the companies organized by the UAW that design these crappy vehicles that nobody wants.

Snarfangel: I'm rooting for American unions to organize Chinese workers.

/a man can dream.

I say we paradrop some teamsters into deep China with English-Chinese dictionaries.

Sarah Palin's Conscience: CmndrFish: Tourney3p0: fatalvenom: Sorry, Euro-trash American car haters and hippies...

[image.motortrend.com image 569x355]

But I can't hear you over how awesome 650hp/600lbs of torque sounds while producing it using baby-seal blood, the hoofs of endangered horses, and smog that will hopefully choke and kill your stupid Hybrid hipster/douche-bag rides.

It handles like a pig and the average person will wonder why a grown man is driving a 12 thousand dollar teenage girl car. Whether you're driving it to satisfy yourself or impress others, both scenarios end in disappointment unless incredibly low standards are involved.

Do you want to know how I know that you know absolutely nothing about the newest Ford Mustang?

Is anyone impressed by the new body Ford Mustang anymore?

Those things are a dime a dozen on the streets.

Also: it really is a teenage girl car.

You're really fun at parties I bet. Well, if you get invited to one which I doubt.

Notabunny: TheGreatGazoo: Why would you invite union organizers into your house?

Yeah, the unions long ago destroyed BMW, Mercedes, Audi, Porsche and Volkswagen. Just look at how they ruined the German standard of living.


And as this article states none of these companies want anything to do the American UAW and for good reason. When you make no distinction between building cars and setting car factories on fire just to watch them burn it's no surprise that car manufacturers don't want to work with you. The destruction of the Detroit automakers was a joint effort between corrupt Management and corrupt Union Bosses extracting every last dime out of failing companies that spent 30 years coasting on inertia circling the drain. Anyone who suggested fixing anything was shouted down by both sides while the workers were just pawns and bargaining chips. Even in the article Bob King admits the UAW's it's past sins in hastening the demise of Detroit are a huge obstacle to what he's trying to do today.

If German Unions are examples of what organized labor should aspire to then American Unions are what we should run away from at all costs.

Decade after decade of short-sighted management? Yeah, we can blame that on the unions. Why not?

AirForceVet: Typical. Blame the unions for American auto makers manufacturing crappy cars.

Sorry to burst the myth to you, but engineers design the crappy based on what the management directs as crappy. Union workers just put it together, especially when management and engineering ignore their inputs.

Failure to re-structure assembly lines without first consulting and getting consent has led to moronic designs as well, its why every car looked the same in the 80s-90s. To save farking money.

The UAW had a direct hand in almost killing auto makers after electively striking against each if the big 3 in succession and forcing the makers to make bad deals through extortion.

Why Yes I Am A Wizard: Unions didn't destroy America, greedy people did.

Which includes greedy union leaders who agreed to put pensions in place that were underfunded and kicked the real costs down the road.

Helen_Arigby: /learned to drive standard on Dad's '95 Mustang
//IT STARTS IN THIRD, POINTING UPHILL!
///laid rubber without meaning to, once


The guy who got me really good at using stick took me out into the mountains, pointed me up hill on a 10% grade in a F-150 and made me do ten foot start and stops back and forth starting in 1st then starting in 2nd then 3rd...

Piss on your mustang -- starting in third pointing uphill is driver skill rather than the vehicle your in. Ford is an easy way to say more money for less power / style.

Teachers making 70 grand a year is greedy unions but autoworkers making 80 grand with a high school education is the union protecting American jobs? Wow -- i dont know what you easterners put in the great lakes but it seems anyone within 500 kilometers of the damn things has mush between the ears.

aurorous: Notabunny: TheGreatGazoo: Why would you invite union organizers into your house?

Yeah, the unions long ago destroyed BMW, Mercedes, Audi, Porsche and Volkswagen. Just look at how they ruined the German standard of living.


And as this article states none of these companies want anything to do the American UAW and for good reason. When you make no distinction between building cars and setting car factories on fire just to watch them burn it's no surprise that car manufacturers don't want to work with you. The destruction of the Detroit automakers was a joint effort between corrupt Management and corrupt Union Bosses extracting every last dime out of failing companies that spent 30 years coasting on inertia circling the drain. Anyone who suggested fixing anything was shouted down by both sides while the workers were just pawns and bargaining chips. Even in the article Bob King admits the UAW's it's past sins in hastening the demise of Detroit are a huge obstacle to what he's trying to do today.

If German Unions are examples of what organized labor should aspire to then American Unions are what we should run away from at all costs.

I took TheGreatGazoo's question to be a more general one about unionization in general. My response was a little snarkful. Virtually all Germany's car workers are members of IG Metall, the country's equivalent of the United Automobile Workers. My point was that Germany's auto manufacturers, and their employees, are doing just fine with a unionized labor force.

aurorous: If German Unions are examples of what organized labor should aspire to then American Unions are what we should run away from at all costs.

Agreed. There was an article a few days ago on Fark that highlighted the differences between German and American unions. In short: the former actually work together in a way that is beneficial to both sides. The latter are a bunch of obstructionist thugs who'd cut their nose off to spite the other side - who feel and act similarly.

However, the article did mention that German labor laws force companies and unions to work together. American labor laws just seem to be a tool that each side can use to snipe each other.

Dinjiin: aurorous: If German Unions are examples of what organized labor should aspire to then American Unions are what we should run away from at all costs.

Agreed. There was an article a few days ago on Fark that highlighted the differences between German and American unions. In short: the former actually work together in a way that is beneficial to both sides. The latter are a bunch of obstructionist thugs who'd cut their nose off to spite the other side - who feel and act similarly.

However, the article did mention that German labor laws force companies and unions to work together. American labor laws just seem to be a tool that each side can use to snipe each other.

I missed that earlier article. Did it also mention that the German constitution allows for "works councils" in every factory, where management and employees work together on matters like shop floor conditions and work life?

Notabunny: Did it also mention that the German constitution allows for "works councils" in every factory, where management and employees work together on matters like shop floor conditions and work life?

It sure did.

Dinjiin: Notabunny: Did it also mention that the German constitution allows for "works councils" in every factory, where management and employees work together on matters like shop floor conditions and work life?

It sure did.

Thanks. I bookmarked it. I thought this sentence was a concise summary:

fta Maibach told a very similar story: unlike in Germany, where unionization and high wages are normalized by law and custom, "the U.S. has a different tradition"

Right....

Because organized labor ruined the US auto industry - shaitty product? Nope, that's not the reason.

Intoxoman: Sarah Palin's Conscience: CmndrFish: Tourney3p0: fatalvenom: Sorry, Euro-trash American car haters and hippies...

[image.motortrend.com image 569x355]

But I can't hear you over how awesome 650hp/600lbs of torque sounds while producing it using baby-seal blood, the hoofs of endangered horses, and smog that will hopefully choke and kill your stupid Hybrid hipster/douche-bag rides.

It handles like a pig and the average person will wonder why a grown man is driving a 12 thousand dollar teenage girl car. Whether you're driving it to satisfy yourself or impress others, both scenarios end in disappointment unless incredibly low standards are involved.

Do you want to know how I know that you know absolutely nothing about the newest Ford Mustang?

Is anyone impressed by the new body Ford Mustang anymore?

Those things are a dime a dozen on the streets.

Also: it really is a teenage girl car.

You're really fun at parties I bet. Well, if you get invited to one which I doubt.

Sorry that your butt hurts so much.

beta_plus: Big 3 have crappy engineers

The big 3 have good engineers, it's just that the engineers aren't really allowed to do anything.

DarkLancelot: I believe that is because German companies are stakeholder focused,

ding, ding, ding

Dinjiin: However, the article did mention that German labor laws force companies and unions to work together. American labor laws just seem to be a tool that each side can use to snipe each other.

It's not a matter of law as much as it is custom. In America we see management and labor as antagonistic, in Germany they don't.

AirForceVet: Typical. Blame the unions for American auto makers manufacturing crappy cars.

Sorry to burst the myth to you, but engineers design the crappy based on what the management directs as crappy. Union workers just put it together, especially when management and engineering ignore their inputs.

Go to a union auto plant on a normal week and count the cars in the 'fix' lot, where cars are stored and problems fixed over the weekend by the same workers but on OT. Now go back and count the cars on a 4 days week. Somehow in 4 days the workers made the same mistakes as they normally do in a 5 day week, just enough to justify all the OT they want.

The union is looking to increase its members in the short term to pay for the current pension obligations. Long term the workers in the south realize they don't want part of that ponzi scheme.

Lt_Ryan: Go to a union auto plant on a normal week and count the cars in the 'fix' lot,

Perhaps if the workers felt a bit more connected to what they're doing and who they're working for the issues would go away. Just a thought.

neaorin: It's funny seeing so many people defend the UAW when even their president admits their past mistakes contributed to the disaster. You know, right in TFA.

Yes, the US automakers are making a comeback. That's also because UAW finally decided that cutting off their nose to spite their face was counterproductive. The new deals with Ford and GM feature less fixed pay raises (new window) and more profit sharing.

Now, do VW and Daimler workers in the US need a union (possibly the UAW)? I don't know. I do know that if VW and Daimler are smart about it, their workers won't demand one. Never mind the Japanese companies, that's a mountain to climb for UAW right now.

Yea, but the partisan trolls and retarded ideologues that infest FARK can't seem to comprehend that most of the bigger issues our country is facing were created by both sides of the ideological aisle and are incapable to discussing any topic without their "it's all their fault" goggles on. It's like watching four year olds fight. Funny at first, tiresome and cringeworthy after a while.....

One of my favorite "This American Life" episodes talked about the NUMI auto plant. The workers admited to leaving bolts out of cars, doing drugs, and drinking on the job. Heh, the American automotive workforce was and still is a joke.

Why Yes I Am A Wizard: beta_plus: Right to work, biatches!
AirForceVet: Typical. Blame the unions for American auto makers manufacturing crappy cars.

Sorry to burst the myth to you, but engineers design the crappy based on what the management directs as crappy. Union workers just put it together, especially when management and engineering ignore their inputs.

You know why the Big 3 have crappy engineers and crappy managers? Because the good managers and engineers went to work for Honda USA in exchange for less pay, more hours, and NO UAW.

Man, you consume and spew propaganda like a North Korean tour guide.

Unions didn't destroy America, greedy peopleunion bosses did.

Teamsters won't let you get gear off your own truck in Chicago, Boston, etc. Instead they charge you an arm and a leg. Three guys you have to pay for, for the day. Two stand around, one works. Them's the rules.

During the Big Dig in Boston, I would frequent a small chinese bar where union workers would drink while they were supposed to be on the clock working. They openly bragged about it. When they would ask how I felt about unions, I would tell them that they would be a lot more appreciated by the people who pay them, if they would put the beer down and get the fark back to work until their alloted break time.

UAW contributed to more than half the car's overall cost of building in the USA. Ask old GM how they felt paying for guys to sit in the break rooms watching movies all day, because of a twisted contract.
Some unions have outlived themselves. Sure, they were needed to prevent gross abuses like that was happening in the 1920s and '30s. But now they are no longer needed here. Maybe they can go to China and fight for the rights of workers over there. Oh yeah, not as much profit for the union boss.
UAW, DIAF. Teamsters, keep it going. Just relax a little. :-)



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