The few Rabbis who agree with this in Israel have cancelled a demonstration in favor of those signs, because of the overwhelming protests from the rest of the Orthodox world (they would not have cancelled due to protests from the rest of the world).

The Ashkenazi Chief Rabbi has come out and quoted a very clear Talmud that says: If a woman is walking in the street where you are going to synagogue, you have no right to tell her to move, rather you have to change direction yourself. He also condemned attempts at segregation and absolutely condemned any acts of violence and harassment.

One of the biggest deciders of Halacha today has come out to state that there is absolutely no basis in Torah for segregation of the genders in public like this, and especially not for their behavior.


Agudath Israel, the single biggest Ultra-Orthodox organization in the world, has come out with a statement about this:

Reports of recent events in the Israeli town of Beit Shemesh are deeply disturbing.

Violence of any sort, whether physical or verbal, by self-appointed "guardians" of modesty is reprehensible. Such conduct is beyond the bounds of decent, moral - Jewish! - behavior. We condemn these acts unconditionally.

Those who have taken pains to note that the small group of misguided individuals who have engaged in this conduct are not representative of the larger charedi community are to be commended. It is disturbing, though, that some Israeli politicians and secularists have been less responsible, portraying the actions of a very few as indicative of the feelings of the many. Quite the contrary, the extremist element is odious to, and rejected by, the vast majority of charedi Jews.

Lost in all the animus and ill will, unfortunately, is the concept ostensibly at the core of the controversy: the exalted nature of tzenius, or Jewish modesty.

Judaism considers human desires to constitute a sublime and important force, but one whose potential for harm is commensurate with its potential for holiness.

In a society like our own, where the mantra of many is, in effect, "anything goes," many charedi Jews, men and women alike, see a need to take special steps - in their own lives and without seeking to coerce others - to counterbalance the pervasive atmosphere of licentiousness, so as to avoid the degradation of humanity to which it leads.
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It would be tragic were the acts of violence to lead Jews to, G-d forbid, reject the culture of tzenius that has always been the hallmark of the Jewish nation, to regard Jewish modesty as something connected to violence and anger, rather than to refinement and holiness.

Netanyahu himself, while condemning the zealots who do these disgusting things, said that the overwhelming majority of the Charedi public is not like this, and does not support this.

Thousands of people have taken the street, from secular to ultra-Orthodox, to protest against the zealots doing this (the people doing these things are at most 12-24 people in Bet Shemesh)

The biggest decider of Halacha in the Lithuanian non-Chassidic Ultra-Orthodox world has come out and declared there is no right to enforce segregation in public buses.

Even Shimon Peres, certainly not one that would be described as a friend of the Chareidi community, came out to say 'Enough' with the demonization of the whole Chareidi community based on a few zealots.

The majority of Haredim doesn't share such fanatic points of view and would not insist on a gender separation on buses or sidewalks. Those fanatics are a small minority and because it is them causing trouble, the entire haredi society is being doomed.

The RCA and the OU have come out with a statement not too long ago

New York - The Rabbinical Council of America and the Orthodox Union join together to strongly and unambiguously condemn the recent violence and intimidation committed by segments of the Jewish community in Beit Shemesh, Israel. As the largest body of Orthodox Rabbis, and the largest organization of Orthodox Synagogues, respectively, we call upon all involved to return to the peaceful ways of our sacred Torah and to respect the dignity of all human beings. It should be clear to all that this hateful activity does not represent Judaism.

We also urge all observers to recognize that the behavior of these hooligans does not in any way represent the attitude or demeanor of the Charedi community at large. The vast majority of Charedi Jews find these actions abhorrent, and the community should not be judged by the inexcusable conduct of a few.

Finally, as Rabbis and national congregational leaders we support the right and the duty of Israel's police to act with the full force of the law in putting an end to these illegal, and dangerous, activities.

So now that it's clear that not only the Orthodox and Ultra-Orthodox overwhelmingly reject this, condemn this and disagrees with this, and says clearly that there is no basis in Judaism for this, and that even secular figures who vow to fight against this like Shimon Peres and Netanyahu clearly say that the vast majority of the Chareidi world is not like this, and does not support this...

Can we stop pretending that the whole Orthodox world, or even a sizeable portion, or even more than 500 to 1,000 out of a 1,000,000 Chareidim are doing any such things?

Not only are those people an incredibly small minority, but those who bear the brunt of their attacks are not secular Jews, but religious Jews. This is who they are attacking in Bet Shemesh. They are attacking other Orthodox Jews they don't consider live up to their standards.

This article pretty much knocks it out of the park:

Many think of Judaism as a single religion, but it has as many denominations and subsets as Christianity does. Orthodox Judaism equally breaks down into countless subsets. Most of the problems in Jerusalem concern 19th century immigrant sects which never reconciled themselves to the creation of the State of Israel, and have in some cases made common cause with Islam.

The Neturei Karta, who have been denounced by every mainstream Orthodox denomination, were friendly with the Ayatollah Khomeini and are friendly with Ahmadinejad. They held prayer vigils for Arafat and took blood money from his kleptocracy. They are best thought of as the Jewish version of the Westboro Baptist Church which pickets military funerals, complete with gloating messages after terrorist attacks and assaults on other Orthodox Jews.

One Neturei Karta leader who was famously photographed in a liplock with Iranian genocidal thug Ahmadinejad also met with Neo-Nazis and his children were expelled from school after being taught to cheer terrorist attacks. Other Neturei Karta leaders have met with Farrakhan and Hamas terrorists. But while some NK leaders forbid traveling to Israel, much of the movement (which despite its small size has its own splinter groups) is still embedded in Jerusalem. There it has engaged in a variety of violent incidents against Jewish businesses and residents. And like their Muslim brethren, their feelings for women mirror their feelings for Zionism.

Leftist media describe Neturei Karta leaders as "Anti-Zionist Jews" when they're doing a story on their participation in an Anti-Israel protest in New York or London, but when they attack bookstores or girls' schools in Israel then they are suddenly "Ultra-Orthodox Extremists" even when the people they are attacking are Orthodox Jews.

The Neturei Karta assaults on Jews and their support for terrorists have been a problem for some time. And the outrageous prayer vigils for Arafat and the harassment of Jewish schoolgirls are all despicable and depraved behavior by a corrupt cult which has engaged in kidnapping and child abuse. The NK are not the only ones involved, but they are at the heart of the problem.

Not only that, but as disgusting as the behavior of these people are, and as far from Torah as they are, how many people have they killed in the last year over religious differences? 0

How many people have they killed in the last 5 years over religious differences? 0
How many people have they killed in the last 10 years over religious differences? 0
How many people have they killed in the last 25 years over religious differences? 0

(and don't bring out Yigal Amir (not Chareidi) or the very rare examples of so-called settlers killing Arabs (again, not Chareidi))

So can we please drop those "chareidi Jews are like the Taliban! like Al Qaeda! like Nazis!" hysteria that plagued the other thread?

Chareidi Jews are like the Taliban! And like Al Qaeda! And like Nazis!

Jew mad?

Tatsuma: Can we stop pretending that the whole Orthodox world, or even a sizeable portion, or even more than 500 to 1,000 out of a 1,000,000 Chareidim are doing any such things?

That'll happen the same day that people stop pretending that all Catholics are kiddie-diddlers.

Let me guess

Benny is going to build a wall around bigotry and intolerance.

And use some white phosphorous to illuminate the problem.

Super Chronic: got me thinking, that it would be much easier to accommodate Tats views on almost anything with more pictures of hot IDF women in this thread

rudemix: How many days did you stay up writing that defensive piece, Tatsuma?

Are you kidding me? I wrote that in about five to ten minutes.

rudemix: You should work so hard to enlighten people about all groups and religions that have fringe elements that suck so bad but don't make up the whole. Muslims, and many other groups would appreciate your understanding

Go back as far as the threads about the danish cartoon and you will see that I was one of the few people saying exactly that

Or go to the recent threads about the headscarves in France, and you will see I was defending French muslims and their religious rights from the French.

Or xians when the Brevik thing happened. Or when a Phelps thread is happening.

And so on and so on and so on.

Arkanaut: 1) Why is that wrong? Usually labeling someone as an "extremist" means they are not a representative member of that group. I don't see a problem with describing (for example) Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia as Muslim extremists, even though the majority of their victims are Muslims.

2) Why the focus on Neturei Karta? Are they the sect that's been involved in these attacks?

1. It's wrong because they are only calling them extremists when it suits their purposes. It'd be like lehavdil calling Al Qaeda a political group on one hand, and a terrorist group on the other based on how politically expedient it is

2. Yes, mostly

shpritz: Let's admit that this isn't about "modesty". It's about property values and staying in the ghetto. It's about creating cheap ultra-orthodox-only neighborhoods where young couples with tons of children but little to no income can buy houses and raise their kids without being afraid that anyone will expose them to anything resembling critical thinking. Something the the ultra-orthodox establishment went along with happily until the bad press got to be a little too much. Something secular right-wing parties go along with gladly because it helps them stay in power.

Yeah except that these zealots are attacking other Orthodox Jews, and are already living in an exclusively Orthodox neighborhood, next to other Orthodox neighborhoods.

So, yeah.

Tatsuma: So now that it's clear that not only the Orthodox and Ultra-Orthodox overwhelmingly reject this, condemn this and disagrees with this, and says clearly that there is no basis in Judaism for this, and that even secular figures who vow to fight against this like Shimon Peres and Netanyahu clearly say that the vast majority of the Chareidi world is not like this, and does not support this...

Can we stop pretending that the whole Orthodox world, or even a sizeable portion, or even more than 500 to 1,000 out of a 1,000,000 Chareidim are doing any such things?

Not only are those people an incredibly small minority, but those who bear the brunt of their attacks are not secular Jews, but religious Jews. This is who they are attacking in Bet Shemesh. They are attacking other Orthodox Jews they don't consider live up to their standards.

This article pretty much knocks it out of the park:

Many think of Judaism as a single religion, but it has as many denominations and subsets as Christianity does. Orthodox Judaism equally breaks down into countless subsets. Most of the problems in Jerusalem concern 19th century immigrant sects which never reconciled themselves to the creation of the State of Israel, and have in some cases made common cause with Islam.

The Neturei Karta, who have been denounced by every mainstream Orthodox denomination, were friendly with the Ayatollah Khomeini and are friendly with Ahmadinejad. They held prayer vigils for Arafat and took blood money from his kleptocracy. They are best thought of as the Jewish version of the Westboro Baptist Church which pickets military funerals, complete with gloating messages after terrorist attacks and assaults on other Orthodox Jews.

One Neturei Karta leader who was famously photographed in a liplock with Iranian genocidal thug Ahmadinejad also met with Neo-Nazis and his children were expelled from school after being taught to cheer terrorist attacks. Other Neturei Karta leaders have met with Farrakhan and Hamas terr ...

Love, you Tats, I really do, but I would place more faith in all these condemnations if they had A) happened BEFORE all the negative Publicity and B) If amost the exact same behavior hadn't occured in other places where ultra-orthodox Judaism was prominent like The controversy in NY over a Bike path on Beford Ave where the Hasidic community took it upon themselves to block off the path because they decided that women bikers were too immodestly dressed (new window)

The Simple truth is that theocrats are theocrats the world over be the Muslims like the Taliban, Christian evangelicals and Dominionists or Jewish like some of the Ultra-Orthodox sects in the US and Israel. They'd never realize it, but they actually have more in common with each other than they do with mainstream adherents of their own religion. All want to force their narrow view of how the world works upon the rest of the world whether the world wants them to or not

So a broad brush only works one way. I get it.

spicorama: "We won't accept spitting on people in the street just because someone doesn't approve of their apparel," the PM said, adding that the "public sphere is open and safe and will remain so."

The fact this happens at all speaks volumes about their values and culture. If they had their way, they would be no different than the saudis in terms of their treatment of women.

/Oh but the women want it this way! its you that want force your culture on them.
//They LIKE that they are not allowed to shake hands with a man, seriously.

So Netanyahu is saying that there isn't a problem but there really is? Interesting. Men and women are not equal in Israel. Just wait until an ultra-orthodox woman has her period or a baby and you'll find out how unclean the menfolk think we are.

I really wonder how many of you people are claiming that Haredim are the same also vehemently point out that lehavdil the overwhelming majority of Muslims are peace-loving and have nothing to do with their extremists.