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		WTF Ireland (bbc.co.uk)		358
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shivashakti

2011-12-28 09:20:38 AM

I think it's wrong to have treated the returning soldiers poorly, but it's pretty understandable why the Irish people would shun anyone who decided to side with the British or fight in the British Army.

The Irish weren't necessarily pro-Nazi (as far as their goals), they were just extremely anti-British and were happy to see Britain get invaded.

Considering the history of what the British did to Ireland for hundreds of years, there's no mystery why the Irish would rejoice in seeing England getting invaded or attacked.

SecretAgentWoman

2011-12-28 10:12:59 AM

Short sighted shiat. And WHY has this not be addressed by the government yet?

Arkanaut

2011-12-28 10:33:30 AM

What makes a man turn neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or were they just born with a heart full of neutrality?

max_pooper

2011-12-28 10:37:55 AM

Army deserters should be prosecuted. They may have been fighting for what they believed to be a noble cause but they still broke the law.

LewDux

2011-12-28 10:38:57 AM

shivashakti: I think it's wrong to have treated the returning soldiers poorly, but it's pretty understandable why the Irish people would shun anyone who decided to side with the British or fight in the British Army.

The Irish weren't necessarily pro-Nazi (as far as their goals), they were just extremely anti-British and were happy to see Britain get invaded.

Considering the history of what the British did to Ireland for hundreds of years, there's no mystery why the Irish would rejoice in seeing England getting invaded or attacked.

But what about the good things that England did?
/god, save the queen

Summercat

2011-12-28 10:39:52 AM

The Irish:

They'd cut off their nose to spite the English face.

Pythagoras

2011-12-28 10:39:56 AM

shivashakti: Considering the history of what the British did to Ireland for hundreds of years, there's no mystery why the Irish would rejoice in seeing England getting invaded or attacked.

I admit that my WWII history as it pertains to UK is lacking. But I would think that due to the proximity of Ireland to UK, that someone must have though, "We're going to be dragged into war one way or another."

The Swiss was able to hold of the Germans primarily due to their mountains. Their army size and might was a very strong second. But all that separated Ireland from the UK was a small channel.

I wonder what Ireland was thinking when they decided to be neutral...

SevenZarkSeven

2011-12-28 10:41:50 AM

Trouble in the colonies...

Bacon is Meat Candy

2011-12-28 10:42:29 AM

max_pooper: Army deserters should be prosecuted. They may have been fighting for what they believed to be a noble cause but they still broke the law.

But not everyone was punished for that. Those that left to be thieves were not included, for example.

Empanda

2011-12-28 10:44:21 AM

I thought the really screwed up part was that the list didn't included the deserters that didn't fight against Germany. How sour do your grapes have to be for you to show preference for theives over guys who fought against Nazis?

thurstonxhowell

2011-12-28 10:44:37 AM

Pythagoras: I wonder what Ireland was thinking when they decided to be neutral...

fark England.

I'm sure many of them didn't like what Hitler was doing on the continent, but were will to look the other way as long as he kept killing Brits.

no icon tact

2011-12-28 10:44:38 AM

Pythagoras: shivashakti: Considering the history of what the British did to Ireland for hundreds of years, there's no mystery why the Irish would rejoice in seeing England getting invaded or attacked.

I admit that my WWII history as it pertains to UK is lacking. But I would think that due to the proximity of Ireland to UK, that someone must have though, "We're going to be dragged into war one way or another."

The Swiss was able to hold of the Germans primarily due to their mountains. Their army size and might was a very strong second. But all that separated Ireland from the UK was a small channel.

I wonder what Ireland was thinking when they decided to be neutral...

Our island is further away than yours from Germany.

Jerkwater

2011-12-28 10:46:30 AM

Irish hatred of the English at the time trumped all, including Nazi aggression.

That being said, this is (ostensibly, at least) about desertion. Tens of thousands of Irish civilians joined the British forces, and many more moved to Britain and joined the depleted labor force.

ionember

2011-12-28 10:46:39 AM

ireland needs to fix that shiat post haste. let these old codgers finally have some hard won dignity, while the rest of their lame ass-neutral/coward countrymen let the rest of the world do the hard fighting for them.

fark ireland.

Pontious Pilates

2011-12-28 10:48:17 AM

At that point the Republic of Ireland had been independent for less than 30 years after centuries of brutal treatment by the crown. Plenty of western European countries stayed officially neutral in WWII. Ireland probably had the best reason of any of them.

chaddsfarkprefect

2011-12-28 10:49:42 AM

The enemy of my enemy often can also kiss my ass, as in this case.

Spade

2011-12-28 10:52:27 AM

He was one of about 5,000 Irish soldiers who deserted their own neutral army to join the war against fascism and who were brutally punished on their return home as a result.

Important word in Bold.

When Ian Malone was killed in Iraq with the British Army's Irish Guards, British soldiers carried his casket at his funeral in Dublin and a British Army and Irish Defense Force pipe played.

Lots of Irishmen left Ireland to go fight for the Allies in WW2. Some of them probably faced discrimination for fighting with England, but only these 5000 deserters (traitors, really) got officially blacklisted. Which is completely fair. They deserted. That's a crime.

Pockafrusta

2011-12-28 10:52:57 AM

With "leaders" like that, it isn't hard to reason why Ireland is in a financial crisis now. There is a vacuum of leadership that continues to this day. I'm just happy that my Irish ancestors decided to move to America in the 19th century.

SevenZarkSeven

2011-12-28 10:53:32 AM

ionember: ireland needs to fix that shiat post haste. let these old codgers finally have some hard won dignity, while the rest of their lame ass-neutral/coward countrymen let the rest of the world do the hard fighting for them.

Engagement with war memorial causes and suchlike has skyrocketed in the UK in the last decade or so. People are really possessive and precious about certain things that they believe should never change. People wearing white poppies, for example, were assaulted, vilified and publicly harassed and humiliated. I think it is ridiculous, and I have a feeling that similar motives are at work here.

ElFugawz

2011-12-28 10:54:12 AM

Pythagoras:
I wonder what Ireland was thinking when they decided to be neutral...

Something along the lines of: we are a poor ass country that was recently colonized for centuries and this is one of those Germany-France-Britain-Russia things that we don't need to be drug into any more and never really gave a shiat about. Also, fark the English.

/hehe, his name is stout

shivashakti

2011-12-28 10:55:26 AM

LewDux: But what about the good things that England did?
/god, save the queen

Heh. And what about all the good Nazi Germany did?
I mean, all we hear about is the Holocaust, but I'm sure they did good things, right?

Sorry, but once you commit genocide, which the English did to the Irish, it's not easily forgotten.

spacelord321

2011-12-28 10:55:27 AM

Empanda: I thought the really screwed up part was that the list didn't included the deserters that didn't fight against Germany. How sour do your grapes have to be for you to show preference for theives over guys who fought against Nazis?

It helps if your understanding of WWII goes beyond high school textbooks and the history channel.

Fark the English. Fark the Nazis. Fark ALL imperialists.

youmad.jpg/oblig

ignatius_crumbcake

2011-12-28 10:56:37 AM

Pythagoras: I wonder what Ireland was thinking when they decided to be neutral...

The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Or, at the very least, don't help those who have been stepping on you for centuries.

To quote Eamon de Valera:

"I would like to put a hypothetical question-it is a question I have put to many Englishmen since the last war. Suppose Germany had won the war, had invaded and occupied England, and that after a long lapse of time and many bitter struggles, she was finally brought to acquiesce in admitting England's right to freedom, and let England go, but not the whole of England, all but, let us say, the six southern counties.

These six southern counties, those, let us suppose, commanding the entrance to the narrow seas, Germany had singled out and insisted on holding herself with a view to weakening England as a whole, and maintaining the securing of her own communications through the Straits of Dover.

Let us suppose further, that after all this had happened, Germany was engaged in a great war in which she could show that she was on the side of freedom of a number of small nations, would Mr. Churchill as an Englishman who believed that his own nation had as good a right to freedom as any other, not freedom for a part merely, but freedom for the whole-would he, whilst Germany still maintained the partition of his country and occupied six counties of it, would he lead this partitioned England to join with Germany in a crusade? I do not think Mr. Churchill would.

Would he think the people of partitioned England an object of shame if they stood neutral in such circumstances? I do not think Mr. Churchill would."

roughridersfan

2011-12-28 10:57:13 AM

You know who else wanted England to lose the war?

SevenZarkSeven

2011-12-28 10:58:03 AM

shivashakti: LewDux: But what about the good things that England did?
/god, save the queen

Heh. And what about all the good Nazi Germany did?
I mean, all we hear about is the Holocaust, but I'm sure they did good things, right?

Sorry, but once you commit genocide, which the English did to the Irish, it's not easily forgotten.

This type of argument is about as productive/useful as a shiat on a plate.

Empanda

2011-12-28 10:58:09 AM

Spade: He was one of about 5,000 Irish soldiers who deserted their own neutral army to join the war against fascism and who were brutally punished on their return home as a result.

Important word in Bold.

When Ian Malone was killed in Iraq with the British Army's Irish Guards, British soldiers carried his casket at his funeral in Dublin and a British Army and Irish Defense Force pipe played.

Lots of Irishmen left Ireland to go fight for the Allies in WW2. Some of them probably faced discrimination for fighting with England, but only these 5000 deserters (traitors, really) got officially blacklisted. Which is completely fair. They deserted. That's a crime.

Ireland didn't punish all deserters in this way, just those who fought with the British. If you deserted at the same time and became a thief, your name isn't on the list.

Pockafrusta

2011-12-28 10:58:35 AM

Spade: He was one of about 5,000 Irish soldiers who deserted their own neutral army to join the war against fascism and who were brutally punished on their return home as a result.

Important word in Bold.

When Ian Malone was killed in Iraq with the British Army's Irish Guards, British soldiers carried his casket at his funeral in Dublin and a British Army and Irish Defense Force pipe played.

Lots of Irishmen left Ireland to go fight for the Allies in WW2. Some of them probably faced discrimination for fighting with England, but only these 5000 deserters (traitors, really) got officially blacklisted. Which is completely fair. They deserted. That's a crime.

Funny that YOU mentioned fair when these men didn't get their day on court to defend themselves. WTF is your definition of "fair" (rhetorical, don't answer) But, I'm sure that you believe everything you're told, too. Just calling a Spade, a spade?

Thorndyke Barnhard

2011-12-28 10:58:53 AM

Jerkwater: Irish hatred of the English at the time trumped all, including Nazi aggression.

That being said, this is (ostensibly, at least) about desertion. Tens of thousands of Irish civilians joined the British forces, and many more moved to Britain and joined the depleted labor force.

Whether or not the principle of punishing desertion is legitimate is not what's relevant here at not exclusively or even mostly. What is is whether or not it is justifiable in these particular circumstances and in the hindsight context.

At this point the government should apologize for condemning its own so blindly and with regard only to the partisan concerns of the prewar time.

hasty ambush

2011-12-28 11:00:22 AM

They did not "swap uniforms" they were guilty of desertion. However in this case the punishment certainly outweighed the severity of the crime.

Spade

2011-12-28 11:02:01 AM

Pythagoras: I wonder what Ireland was thinking when they decided to be neutral...

They didn't think it was their problem since they weren't being attacked. Plus most people didn't like the Brits. Same as the United States right up until when we got attacked (majorly attacked, since we'd already lost ships before Pearl).

Anyway, Irish neutrality tended to benefit the allies more than the Germans. And the Irish tended to freely pass intel to the Allies and collaborate in other ways.

spacelord321

2011-12-28 11:02:03 AM

Empanda: Spade: He was one of about 5,000 Irish soldiers who deserted their own neutral army to join the war against fascism and who were brutally punished on their return home as a result.

Important word in Bold.

When Ian Malone was killed in Iraq with the British Army's Irish Guards, British soldiers carried his casket at his funeral in Dublin and a British Army and Irish Defense Force pipe played.

Lots of Irishmen left Ireland to go fight for the Allies in WW2. Some of them probably faced discrimination for fighting with England, but only these 5000 deserters (traitors, really) got officially blacklisted. Which is completely fair. They deserted. That's a crime.

Ireland didn't punish all deserters in this way, just those who fought with the British. If you deserted at the same time and became a thief, your name isn't on the list.

Because you were just a thief, not a traitor.

Crewmannumber6

2011-12-28 11:02:05 AM

ionember: ireland needs to fix that shiat post haste. let these old codgers finally have some hard won dignity, while the rest of their lame ass-neutral/coward countrymen let the rest of the world do the hard fighting for them.

fark ireland.

Irish hatred of the crown in todays context may be hard to justify, but pre WW2, only 30 years since the Easter Rebellion it's a little more understandable, given the 800 years of events that came before
Link (new window)
A lot of progress has been made to have a lasting peace by both sides, and that peace is still very fragile. I'm sure now only the most militant would begrudge these men the decisions they made.

and fark you too

part of the problem

2011-12-28 11:03:06 AM

I understand why, but the rage has become a freakin' cancer. I spend most Feasts of our Blessed St. Patrick sayng "Let it go, man, just let it go." over and over.

I hope these men get some justice.

angrymacface

2011-12-28 11:04:40 AM

So they really liked the nazis, then?

hasty ambush

2011-12-28 11:04:54 AM

shivashakti: I think it's wrong to have treated the returning soldiers poorly, but it's pretty understandable why the Irish people would shun anyone who decided to side with the British or fight in the British Army.

The Irish weren't necessarily pro-Nazi (as far as their goals), they were just extremely anti-British and were happy to see Britain get invaded.

Considering the history of what the British did to Ireland for hundreds of years, there's no mystery why the Irish would rejoice in seeing England getting invaded or attacked.

Which was stupid no their part. What reason did they have to beleive that Hitle would have setteld for just occupying the UK and Northern Ireland?

Given their country's ties to the catholic church they also must have been aware fo the NAZIs treatment of catholics and their religion as a whole.

ArgusRun

2011-12-28 11:05:04 AM

Spade: He was one of about 5,000 Irish soldiers who deserted their own neutral army to join the war against fascism and who were brutally punished on their return home as a result.

Important word in Bold.

When Ian Malone was killed in Iraq with the British Army's Irish Guards, British soldiers carried his casket at his funeral in Dublin and a British Army and Irish Defense Force pipe played.

Lots of Irishmen left Ireland to go fight for the Allies in WW2. Some of them probably faced discrimination for fighting with England, but only these 5000 deserters (traitors, really) got officially blacklisted. Which is completely fair. They deserted. That's a crime.

Except that the punishment was unofficial and ongoing. They could have imprisoned them for three years then made an official announcement of reconciliation once the knowledge of Nazi atrocities came to light and let them get on with their lives. Instead it was decades of fear, repression and generational poverty.

The Irish govt. learned a lot from the Brits.

Crewmannumber6

2011-12-28 11:07:49 AM

angrymacface: So they really liked the nazis, then?

They didn't like the nazis nearly as much as they hated the English. If it wouldn't have severed ties with the diaspora in America, Ireland may have fought on the German side.

Spade

2011-12-28 11:08:53 AM

Empanda:
Ireland didn't punish all deserters in this way, just those who fought with the British. If you deserted at the same time and became a thief, your name isn't on the list.

Uh, same thing happens here really.

If you desert from the US Army and rob somebody (which happens) you will get arrested and go to jail for a bit.
If you desert from the US Army and join a foreign military then you're going to get stripped of your citizenship on top of a shiatload of other charges.
Hell, you can get stripped of your citizenship for fighting in any foreign army. The Irish government pointedly did not do that to regular Irish civilians who joined up and were complemented for that by the British government.

Pockafrusta: Funny that YOU mentioned fair when these men didn't get their day on court to defend themselves.

You don't always get that. They should be grateful they weren't arrested and shot.

Empanda

2011-12-28 11:12:54 AM

Spade: Empanda:
Ireland didn't punish all deserters in this way, just those who fought with the British. If you deserted at the same time and became a thief, your name isn't on the list.

Uh, same thing happens here really.

If you desert from the US Army and rob somebody (which happens) you will get arrested and go to jail for a bit.
If you desert from the US Army and join a foreign military then you're going to get stripped of your citizenship on top of a shiatload of other charges.
Hell, you can get stripped of your citizenship for fighting in any foreign army. The Irish government pointedly did not do that to regular Irish civilians who joined up and were complemented for that by the British government.

Pockafrusta: Funny that YOU mentioned fair when these men didn't get their day on court to defend themselves.

You don't always get that. They should be grateful they weren't arrested and shot.

Yes I know the same thing would happen here. I even understand why the Irish in general were so anti-British. That doesn't make the punishment any less screwed up.

tomcatadam

2011-12-28 11:14:23 AM

Spade: You don't always get that. They should be grateful they weren't arrested and shot.

And therefor their children should be diseased and live in poverty, for The Law is always Correct and Just and Right by virtue of it being The Law.
So vote Neutralian.

The Repeated Meme

2011-12-28 11:15:53 AM

Well done trollmitter. Kudos to you and your excellent skills.

SevenZarkSeven

2011-12-28 11:17:53 AM

Crewmannumber6: angrymacface: So they really liked the nazis, then?

They didn't like the nazis nearly as much as they hated the English. If it wouldn't have severed ties with the diaspora in America, Ireland may have fought on the German side.

Nonsense. The Irish would have fought with the NAZIs? I think you're in need of a reality check.

Bennie Crabtree

2011-12-28 11:18:36 AM

I guess (from this thread) that many North Americans simply have no idea how brutal English control of Ireland has been, or how repressive and exploitative the early 20th century English rule was.

Empanda: I even understand why the Irish in general were so anti-British. That doesn't make the punishment any less screwed up.

I agree that the best thing to do would've been to exile the soldiers to England, or to some other country that would patriate them for their service. But then, maybe the English exploited the soldiers and did not want to treat them like citizens just for fighting in a war. I'd love to learn more about the Irish government's debates over what to do with these men.

OnlyM3

2011-12-28 11:19:13 AM

Pockafrusta

With "leaders" like that, it isn't hard to reason why Ireland is in a financial crisis now.

isn't that the truth

2.bp.blogspot.com

Flakeloaf

2011-12-28 11:20:01 AM

DammitIForgotMyLogin

2011-12-28 11:20:05 AM

Jan 27, 1945 Auschwitz liberated
Apr 4, 1945 Buchenwald liberated
Apr 15, 1945 Bergen-Belsen liberated

May 1, 1945 Announcement of Hitler's death

So, when the Irish Prime Minister at the time sent his condolences on the event of Hitler's death, what the Nazis had been doing to the Jews,Gypsies, Homosexuals et al was already well known.

hurdboy

2011-12-28 11:20:19 AM

Pockafrusta: I'm just happy that my Irish ancestors decided to move to America in the 19th century.

This. The only real Irish relative in my family was one of my great-grandfathers. His parents were born in Ireland. He fought in WWI. For the US in France, alongside the British, while his cousins were killing the British in Ireland.

The twisted political alliances for the two world wars are interesting research topics.

SnakeMan

2011-12-28 11:21:13 AM

The Irish: proof that the white man can also be racist against other white people.

LewDux

2011-12-28 11:23:00 AM

SnakeMan: The Irish-English history: proof that the white man can also be racist against other white people.

FTFY

SnakeMan

2011-12-28 11:24:09 AM

LewDux: SnakeMan: The Irish-English history: proof that the white man can also be racist against other white people.

FTFY

Well, yeah, that's what I meant.

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