Nefarious: The TSA agent will probably smack it out of your hand and ask if you're crazy

Only if someone tells them what it is.

/looks like a cell phone, works like a cell phone...
/so string a bunch of these batteries together and make a decent electric car already.

The hydrogen fuel cells, which convert hydrogen and oxygen into water and electrical energy, could be smaller and lighter than batteries, which would result in less bulk devices.

Well, looks like we've found the science-flavored version of the Rainbow Party urban legend, then. Yes, news.com, this is totally a serious patent for a device that's actually possible with present tech and will be built, totally not arbitrary patent-squatting on vague patents designed for maximum lawsuit against potential future designs. For reals, guys.

Another unsubstantiated Apple rumor that all the tech "columnists" will cry bloody murder over when Apple magically doesn't deliver it for them.

/must be a day that ends with a y
//patent applications doesn't mean new products

Must control FIRE!

Weeks of continuous use is appealing but recharge would be a biatch. Gonna be tough to get adoption for anything you can't just plug into a wall.

The original hydrogen fuel cell.

Relax.

simplicimus: Where does the water go?

Depends

Jacobin: simplicimus: Where does the water go?

Depends

ba dum tsssshhhh

Meh, you could get a neutron bomb past the Transportation Sex-offender Administration.

simplicimus: Where does the water go?

It's used to trigger the moisture sensor in the phone, rendering your warranty void.

Just don't try to get an electronic cigarette by them. Those things are sekret turrist devices capable of blowing up airplanes!

Good thing they aren't using something dangerous like cupcakes.

way south: so string a bunch of these batteries together and make a decent electric car already.

Sounds like a nice environmentally friendly idea, but there's also the energy required to produce the hydrogen. Where's that going to come from? It's impossible to produce hydrogen using nothing but hydrogen to provide the needed energy and produce more hydrogen than what is consumed.

Cloudchaser Sakonige the Red Wolf: It's impossible to produce hydrogen using nothing but hydrogen to provide the needed energy and produce more hydrogen than what is consumed.

Sure you can, just not yet.

My current cell phone's battery has a 2.5Ah * 3.7v = (after conversion) 9000 joule capacity.

H2O reaction has an energy of 142 j per gram, meaning it would take a bit over 2 ounces of water to have the equivalent amount of energy.

I don't know the capacity of an iPhone battery, but I'm pretty sure it's not even 2.5Ah. So no problems with the 3 oz rule.

/ math may be off... Still having first cup of coffee.

Why worry?

Cloudchaser Sakonige the Red Wolf: way south: so string a bunch of these batteries together and make a decent electric car already.

Sounds like a nice environmentally friendly idea, but there's also the energy required to produce the hydrogen. Where's that going to come from? It's impossible to produce hydrogen using nothing but hydrogen to provide the needed energy and produce more hydrogen than what is consumed.

Trick is that, unlike oil, hydrogen can be produced by any energy source. It can even be produced from oil or gas. Making it an immediate solution as an energy storage method. It can be produced on site, reducing transport costs.
It's faster to recharge a container with hydrogen and longevity is better than with most batteries.
When battery tech catches up, the cars will already be electric. Ideally they can be designed with a battery swap in mind.

It's better than continuing on a pure oil economy.

Local TV station tried using hydrogen fuel cells on their portable TV cameras for a while. They had some interesting differences. For one, they make a noticeable hissing noise while operating. They also don't work well in midwestern winter conditions. They are only recharged back at the station from a custom-plumbed charging station, you can't recharge them in the field from, say, your car or truck's electrical system, or an AC charger plugged into someone's house power.
They don't use the H2 any more.

I think for portable electronics, the ultracapacitor makes more sense: you could fully recharge it in a minute or less, it will have a decent charge life, requires no new plumbing everywhere you go.

simplicimus: So my device needs a diaper?

It is called steam and it leaks out at such a low rate you won't notice.

"Our country's continuing reliance on fossil fuels has forced our government to maintain complicated political and military relationships with unstable governments in the Middle East, and has also exposed our coastlines and our citizens to the associated hazards of offshore drilling," Apple says in the patent filings.

As opposed to creating a ongoing dependence on China and other debt-slave labor states for consumer goods. The argument for trade used to be so that countries would have economic interests above warfare, now we couldn't get dressed in the morning without the help of China.

Apple, get over the smell of your own farts before making political statements about stability and dependence.

great, the iFanboi legions are going to put platinum prices through the roof before we actually know how to make real useful fuel cells and otherwise useful electrocatalysts?

Sometimes companies come up with crazy ideas and patent them. It's not that they think the tech would be useful any time in the next decade, but if anyone comes up with a similar portable hydrogen fuel cell, they'll have to deal with Apple. That way iHaters, you have your whiny tirades about Apple's patent trolling (while ignoring everyone else's) for the next 30 years.

way south: /so string a bunch of these batteries together and make a decent electric car already.

Fuel cells have bad power density. That's the main drawback at this point. Well, that and cost, of course.

bingethinker: Note the date on the patent, because as soon as these come out, brainwashed douchebags and paid shills will be parroting the propaganda that their company did this first.

And according to the article, they'll have the patent to prove it.

way south: Trick is that, unlike oil, hydrogen can be produced by any energy source.

That's gonna be some trick when the oil runs out. You can also create oil out of anything with enough external energy.

rpm: Cloudchaser Sakonige the Red Wolf: It's impossible to produce hydrogen using nothing but hydrogen to provide the needed energy and produce more hydrogen than what is consumed.

Sure you can, just not yet.

...Are you serious???? Why is there so much stupid in energy threads? If we could turn stupid into kerosene, you morons could launch your own Apollo mission.

Quantum Apostrophe: rpm: Cloudchaser Sakonige the Red Wolf: It's impossible to produce hydrogen using nothing but hydrogen to provide the needed energy and produce more hydrogen than what is consumed.

Sure you can, just not yet.

...Are you serious???? Why is there so much stupid in energy threads? If we could turn stupid into kerosene, you morons could launch your own Apollo mission.

Are you saying energy positive fusion won't happen? Got a cite for that?

Quantum Apostrophe: way south: Trick is that, unlike oil, hydrogen can be produced by any energy source.

That's gonna be some trick when the oil runs out. You can also create oil out of anything with enough external energy.

Fortunately, that big fireball in the sky should continue raining energy down on us for a few billion more years.

rpm: Are you saying energy positive fusion won't happen? Got a cite for that?

You aren't talking about positive energy fusion. You're talking about free energy.

Hydrogen atoms fuse together into helium in a fusion reactor. It doesn't make hydrogen as a byproduct, and you aren't going to be able to run a reactor on it's own waste products and get more fuel out then you put in. It's against the laws of all known and accepted physics.

You might be able to get helium to fuse in a star, but it's not going to work in a hydrogen fusion reactor. (Or any fusion reactor as they still do not exist yet despite well over 20 years of research).

Patent question: If they patent this idea without actually being able to execute it in a working model, can they still sue future engineers who make this idea actually work?

fluffy2097: rpm: Are you saying energy positive fusion won't happen? Got a cite for that?

You aren't talking about positive energy fusion. You're talking about free energy.

Hydrogen atoms fuse together into helium in a fusion reactor. It doesn't make hydrogen as a byproduct, and you aren't going to be able to run a reactor on it's own waste products and get more fuel out then you put in. It's against the laws of all known and accepted physics.

You might be able to get helium to fuse in a star, but it's not going to work in a hydrogen fusion reactor. (Or any fusion reactor as they still do not exist yet despite well over 20 years of research).

So we all need to have our own stars?

LawyersRock: fluffy2097: rpm: Are you saying energy positive fusion won't happen? Got a cite for that?

You aren't talking about positive energy fusion. You're talking about free energy.

Hydrogen atoms fuse together into helium in a fusion reactor. It doesn't make hydrogen as a byproduct, and you aren't going to be able to run a reactor on it's own waste products and get more fuel out then you put in. It's against the laws of all known and accepted physics.

You might be able to get helium to fuse in a star, but it's not going to work in a hydrogen fusion reactor. (Or any fusion reactor as they still do not exist yet despite well over 20 years of research).

So we all need to have our own stars?

Even stars aren't self sustaining. What they do have is the heat, pressure, and magnetic fields necessary to create fusion down to the point where you're left with heavy elements like Iron and such. Which is about the best you're going to do in terms of a self sustaining fusion reaction.

Barakku: Patent question: If they patent this idea without actually being able to execute it in a working model, can they still sue future engineers who make this idea actually work?

Yes. They can and will. You haven't had to produce a working model of your patent for decades now. The thing to do I suppose, would be to wait for someone to get it right, Reverse engineer it, then sue the bejesus out of them to put them out of business. Then you use their hardware for your own patented devices.

fluffy2097: rpm: Are you saying energy positive fusion won't happen? Got a cite for that?

You aren't talking about positive energy fusion. You're talking about free energy.

Hydrogen atoms fuse together into helium in a fusion reactor. It doesn't make hydrogen as a byproduct, and you aren't going to be able to run a reactor on it's own waste products and get more fuel out then you put in. It's against the laws of all known and accepted physics.

" In this house, we obey the laws of thermodynamics! "

fluffy2097: You aren't talking about positive energy fusion. You're talking about free energy.

No, he's quite clearly talking about using fusion to provide the energy to crack water. Some of that hydrogen can remain input fuel for fusion reactors, some of it could be stored for fuel for other purposes. It's not free energy, since you've turned hydrogen into helium, with all the entropy effects of that.

This is actually quite good for us: a) hydrogen is exceedingly common and we could lop H₂ off of all sorts of things for ages, and b) helium is exceedingly rare and we're going to run out quite soon, actually.

maxheck: My current cell phone's battery has a 2.5Ah * 3.7v = (after conversion) 9000 joule capacity.

/ math may be off... Still having first cup of coffee.

2.5Ah * 3.7v * 3600 seconds = 33.3 kJ

/good morning

Not so much free energy as open source. (Apple fans might need to go to wikipedia to find the difference...)

As long as it's not covered with frosting, you'll be fine.

simplicimus: maniacbastard: simplicimus: So my device needs a diaper?

It is called steam and it leaks out at such a low rate you won't notice.

Cool, a steam powered cell phone.

That would be a cool shop thread. Steam punk cell phones.

I get the green for it if it flies as I have patented the idea.

quizzical: [imgs.xkcd.com image 345x478]

We had better hope the turrurists never discover nitrocellulose, or the Testical Sack Analysts will be forcing people to fly naked.

Quantum Apostrophe: way south: Trick is that, unlike oil, hydrogen can be produced by any energy source.

That's gonna be some trick when the oil runs out. You can also create oil out of anything with enough external energy.

Making hydrogen requires water and energy. The equipment is fairly well known.
Any source will do. No need to convert food or haul trash and final product around in big trucks.

It's not better than batteries, but it's a workable interim step until batteries can push a car for five hundred miles a shot.