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(Fox News) Interesting Will digital projectors take the magic of broken reels, changeover cues, and scratched film out of movies? Here's hoping   (foxnews.com) divider line 60
More: Interesting, Texas Instruments, video projector, movie projectors, Motion Picture Association of America, Kodak, Raging Bull, film studies, changeover cue  
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1733 clicks; posted to Geek » on 25 Dec 2011 at 10:33 AM   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»   |    Get this fabulous T-Shirt and impress the methane out of your friends! shirt it!



60 Comments   (+0 »)
   

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2011-12-25 08:27:57 AM
I only go to digital theaters if I can help it. It's just simply a way better experience.
 
2011-12-25 08:32:42 AM
John Moses, an instructor in Film Studies at Fresno City College, agreed that digital projection tech might take the magic out of the movies.

"There's something maybe magical about the little scratches that cross the celluloid," he told FoxNews.com. "And the colors are going to be a little less vibrant."


Right, and vinyl sounds better.


m0.mattters.com
 
2011-12-25 08:54:35 AM
And you'll no longer see the changeover cues, those black dots that appear in the corner of a film to let a projectionist know when the reels needs to be switched.

or more commonly white circles, if you're watching actual show prints where the cue dot are applied to the positive print.
 
2011-12-25 08:57:37 AM
This thread lacks a fight club reference...

Slipping, guys.
 
2011-12-25 09:26:45 AM
snuff3r: This thread lacks a fight club reference...

Slipping, guys.


celticrebel.files.wordpress.com
 
2011-12-25 10:27:49 AM
Digital projectors make crisper pictures and enable 3D films. But will skipping the celluloid change your experience of watching the new Mission: Impossible or Sherlock Holmes flick? Absolutely, says Michael Harrison, a projectionist at the Tower Theatre in Fresno, Calif.
"The feeling [from a digital projector] is very plain and sort of programmed to me," Harrison told FoxNews.com. "Film itself has an aesthetic and an appeal and vibrancy of color, with some sort of life that's not in digital."


Want to bet this guy uses Monster cables to connect his iPod to his stereo?
 
rpm
2011-12-25 10:36:59 AM
Digital isn't quite there yet. I can still see the pixels in some scenes in a 4K theater.
 
2011-12-25 10:37:15 AM
snuff3r: This thread lacks a fight club reference...

Slipping, guys.


Some production studios still add the cigarette burns to modern movies for theaters.
 
2011-12-25 10:43:36 AM
Despite having shelves full of vinyl records, I still feel compelled to belittle anyone who would argue against digital projectors.

/mostly buy downloads now, though
/vinyl is a pain
 
2011-12-25 10:56:24 AM
FTFA: And the colors are going to be a little less vibrant."

Oh horsesh*t. If anything, they would be more vibrant.
 
2011-12-25 10:57:42 AM
www.omega-level.net
 
2011-12-25 11:11:39 AM
You'll take my cue dot from my cold, popcorn-buttered hands.

banannery.files.wordpress.com
 
2011-12-25 11:13:34 AM
Nina_Hartley's_Ass: [www.omega-level.net image 640x503]

What was most amazing is that the two movies (Hobo With a Shotgun, Machete) which were developed from the fake trailers within Grindhouse were both way farking better than either of the Grindhouse movies themselves.
 
2011-12-25 11:21:28 AM
ArcadianRefugee: Nina_Hartley's_Ass: [www.omega-level.net image 640x503]

What was most amazing is that the two movies (Hobo With a Shotgun, Machete) which were developed from the fake trailers within Grindhouse were both way farking better than either of the Grindhouse movies themselves.


Everyone must watch Hobo with a Shotgun.
 
2011-12-25 11:47:09 AM
ArcadianRefugee: Nina_Hartley's_Ass: [www.omega-level.net image 640x503]

What was most amazing is that the two movies (Hobo With a Shotgun, Machete) which were developed from the fake trailers within Grindhouse were both way farking better than either of the Grindhouse movies themselves.


THIS. They were trying too hard with Grindhouse, so it came across as a fake assed JJ version of classic schlock.
 
2011-12-25 11:53:55 AM
Why bother going to a theater when you can watch movies on your iPhone?
 
2011-12-25 11:57:34 AM
I actually enjoyed Planet Terror.
 
2011-12-25 12:04:04 PM
i44.tinypic.com

In the industry, we call them cigarette burns.
 
2011-12-25 12:08:55 PM
Igor Jakovsky: I actually enjoyed Planet Terror.

Planet Terror was awesome. Death Proof was monotonous crap.
 
2011-12-25 12:13:06 PM
raping my childhood ...
 
2011-12-25 12:15:49 PM
Film only looks better than digital when viewed through the rose-colored glasses of nostalgia. It is a dinosaur. Digital is demonstrably better in every way.
 
2011-12-25 12:21:31 PM
It's better to shoot and edit on video too.
 
2011-12-25 12:25:06 PM
As a person who has been projectionist for 35mm and digital projectors I have to say I miss something about the reliability of 35mm. But digital projectors don't require the time and effort to build a movie. Every week the digital projectors seem to encounter a few problems. Usually decrypter problems, color problems, power problems, or network problems. All those are usually fixed by resetting, but shows get delayed. Show stopping problems are infrequent, but require a technician to come in and usually replace components.

35mm projectors could run years with no problem with regular maintenance and proper film builds. Though building films was time consuming as well as threading each film for each show. Film delays only happened when projectionists weren't paying attention to the clock. Show stopping problems usually only happened with bad builds or bad threading. Broken components usually can be repaired/replaced with nothing but a screw driver.

Basically, projectionist for digital projectors are babysitters, It's out of their hands. Being a projectionist for 35mm required discipline and skill.
 
2011-12-25 12:25:24 PM
uncoveror: Film only looks better than digital when viewed through the rose-colored glasses of nostalgia. It is a dinosaur. Digital is demonstrably better in every way.

Well, as a storage mechanism, sure. But now the output is limited by the quality of the projector, right? I'm sure they're not cheaping out, but before it was just a light source and some lenses, right?

Now, does your theater have the super awesome DLP-SUPER-MEGA or are they still using the equivalent of an old tube TV?
 
2011-12-25 12:38:50 PM
uncoveror: Film only looks better than digital when viewed through the rose-colored glasses of nostalgia. It is a dinosaur. Digital is demonstrably better in every way.

Doesn't matter if it is better. It's easier for the companies to ship, they only need to ship one to a theater no matter how many screens that theater is showing it in, they can easily provide software to track how many times it was shown, and it isn't going to look or sound worse in 1 month, all things you cannot do or are not true with film. On a pristine projector with a new film reel, a good bulb, clean lens and a perfect backscreen then film might be better, and I probably have described one, maybe two commercial film screens tops in North America. The other couple of thousand theaters are going to be mediocre at best, and pathetic at worst.
 
2011-12-25 12:50:08 PM
panax: As a person who has been projectionist for 35mm and digital projectors I have to say I miss something about the reliability of 35mm. But digital projectors don't require the time and effort to build a movie. Every week the digital projectors seem to encounter a few problems. Usually decrypter problems, color problems, power problems, or network problems. All those are usually fixed by resetting, but shows get delayed. Show stopping problems are infrequent, but require a technician to come in and usually replace components.

35mm projectors could run years with no problem with regular maintenance and proper film builds. Though building films was time consuming as well as threading each film for each show. Film delays only happened when projectionists weren't paying attention to the clock. Show stopping problems usually only happened with bad builds or bad threading. Broken components usually can be repaired/replaced with nothing but a screw driver.

Basically, projectionist for digital projectors are babysitters, It's out of their hands. Being a projectionist for 35mm required discipline and skill.


I've been to two movies in the past week, coincidentally using the same projector. It obviously has some sort of color convergence issue that they haven't noticed or fixed. Any time there is a high-contrast scene, you can see a red fringe up top, and a cyan fringe on the bottom. It's painfully obvious.
 
2011-12-25 01:23:00 PM
I love film and I handle quite a bit of it, but now that multiplexes run with one projectionist in charge of multiple films in multiple theaters, moving to digital makes more sense.
 
2011-12-25 01:39:02 PM
The move to digital is fine, if quality is improved along the way.
But like most digital media, it'll grow initially because it's cheaper and easier, like MP3s. Sure, an MP3 sounds "okay" if you listen to it on your iPod and $10 headphones. It sound good in your car at 60 mph with the windows down. But listen to them on a good system in your home and they sound like crap. Thankfully, lossless media is helping to fix that but with every new "improved" digital medium, quality has taken a nose dive in the name of convenience and then has to struggle to reclaim lost ground.

Yes, vinyl can sound better than a CD, given good quality equipment and a pristine album. CDs are much more consistent and easier to maintain; however. Most people today don't know what they're missing because even on good media, the source material is mixed with everything cranked up to 11, because "louder is better."

I welcome the advantages of digital, but I'm not willing to accept its shortcomings for them.
 
2011-12-25 03:07:09 PM
I just tried to see "Tintin" this past week. It was digital projection, but the bulb or whatever they used was so dim that the movie was impossible to watch in 3D once you subtract the light the glasses eat. It was easier to watch in 2D blur-vision.
 
2011-12-25 03:12:50 PM
Digital Fish in a Barrel: panax: As a person who has been projectionist for 35mm and digital projectors I have to say I miss something about the reliability of 35mm. But digital projectors don't require the time and effort to build a movie. Every week the digital projectors seem to encounter a few problems. Usually decrypter problems, color problems, power problems, or network problems. All those are usually fixed by resetting, but shows get delayed. Show stopping problems are infrequent, but require a technician to come in and usually replace components.

35mm projectors could run years with no problem with regular maintenance and proper film builds. Though building films was time consuming as well as threading each film for each show. Film delays only happened when projectionists weren't paying attention to the clock. Show stopping problems usually only happened with bad builds or bad threading. Broken components usually can be repaired/replaced with nothing but a screw driver.

Basically, projectionist for digital projectors are babysitters, It's out of their hands. Being a projectionist for 35mm required discipline and skill.

I've been to two movies in the past week, coincidentally using the same projector. It obviously has some sort of color convergence issue that they haven't noticed or fixed. Any time there is a high-contrast scene, you can see a red fringe up top, and a cyan fringe on the bottom. It's painfully obvious.


I had an old boardroom digital projector that did the same thing. Since I got it for free, I pulled it apart and gave it a good cleaning. Turns out some of the lens elements were held in place by foam pads, that had broken down over the years of being exposed to high heat. The elements would just sort of rattle around and I had to shim them into place to get it working correctly again.

Worked perfect for about a month. Then something went wrong in the electronics and it started having other problems I was unable to fix.

I'm willing to bet that something similar happened to the projector you were watching. Cineplexes are notorious for doing stupid things in the name of saving money. Things like thinking turning the brightness down will increase bulb life, or not following up on routine maintenance.

I'd find a new place to watch movies. Might I suggest your living room?
 
2011-12-25 03:18:39 PM
Pestifer: I just tried to see "Tintin" this past week. It was digital projection, but the bulb or whatever they used was so dim that the movie was impossible to watch in 3D once you subtract the light the glasses eat. It was easier to watch in 2D blur-vision.

Some cheap places think turning the brightness down on the projector increases lamp life (The bulb is on or off, brightness is controlled by other things). Others run bulbs longer then they should (Projector bulbs can loose something like 30% of their light output over time according to documentation I've read). You're supposed to run them for X number of hours, instead of until they burn out. Your theater could have been doing either of these boneheaded things, or both!

/Oh the reasons I don't go to the movies any more.
//So many reasons...
 
2011-12-25 03:39:57 PM
fluffy2097: Pestifer: I just tried to see "Tintin" this past week. It was digital projection, but the bulb or whatever they used was so dim that the movie was impossible to watch in 3D once you subtract the light the glasses eat. It was easier to watch in 2D blur-vision.

Some cheap places think turning the brightness down on the projector increases lamp life (The bulb is on or off, brightness is controlled by other things). Others run bulbs longer then they should (Projector bulbs can loose something like 30% of their light output over time according to documentation I've read). You're supposed to run them for X number of hours, instead of until they burn out. Your theater could have been doing either of these boneheaded things, or both!

/Oh the reasons I don't go to the movies any more.
//So many reasons...


I also remember reading recently where some theaters were leaving the 3D filters on the projectors when showing 2D movies, which seriously cut down on the brightness. They were leaving them on because they didn't have people who knew how to change the filters properly without triggering the anti-piracy protections and causing it to shut down.
 
2011-12-25 03:58:15 PM
fluffy2097: Digital Fish in a Barrel: panax: As a person who has been projectionist for 35mm and digital projectors I have to say I miss something about the reliability of 35mm. But digital projectors don't require the time and effort to build a movie. Every week the digital projectors seem to encounter a few problems. Usually decrypter problems, color problems, power problems, or network problems. All those are usually fixed by resetting, but shows get delayed. Show stopping problems are infrequent, but require a technician to come in and usually replace components.

35mm projectors could run years with no problem with regular maintenance and proper film builds. Though building films was time consuming as well as threading each film for each show. Film delays only happened when projectionists weren't paying attention to the clock. Show stopping problems usually only happened with bad builds or bad threading. Broken components usually can be repaired/replaced with nothing but a screw driver.

Basically, projectionist for digital projectors are babysitters, It's out of their hands. Being a projectionist for 35mm required discipline and skill.

I've been to two movies in the past week, coincidentally using the same projector. It obviously has some sort of color convergence issue that they haven't noticed or fixed. Any time there is a high-contrast scene, you can see a red fringe up top, and a cyan fringe on the bottom. It's painfully obvious.

I had an old boardroom digital projector that did the same thing. Since I got it for free, I pulled it apart and gave it a good cleaning. Turns out some of the lens elements were held in place by foam pads, that had broken down over the years of being exposed to high heat. The elements would just sort of rattle around and I had to shim them into place to get it working correctly again.

Worked perfect for about a month. Then something went wrong in the electronics and it started having other problems I was unable to fix.

I'm willing to ...


This.

I used to work for an AV company. We carried the full line of Christie projectors, which seems to be the projector most of these movie houses are moving towards. Roadies 10 and 12K, Roadsters 4,6 and 8, all for quick install corporate event AV. We had a guy full time who's sole purpose was to clean and hot rod those projectors.

Digital is better than film, it is just the projectors require a ton of maintenance to keep them tight.

oh and all of those Christies suck compared to the Panasonic 10Ks for rig, fly, converge time.
 
2011-12-25 04:59:04 PM
"And you'll no longer see the changeover cues, those black dots that appear in the corner of a film to let a projectionist know when the reels needs to be switched. "

I have never, ever seen any such "black dots in the corner" while watching a film. Has anyone? Methinks the article's author is pulling a big one out of their ass.
 
2011-12-25 05:07:01 PM
TV's Vinnie: "And you'll no longer see the changeover cues, those black dots that appear in the corner of a film to let a projectionist know when the reels needs to be switched. "

I have never, ever seen any such "black dots in the corner" while watching a film. Has anyone? Methinks the article's author is pulling a big one out of their ass.


I have. It happens VERY quickly, and they'd tend to hide it in a darkish scene. It was usually a black dot, rarely the white ring seen in Fight Club.

They'd generally time the changeover to happen after a scene fadeout/before a fadein, too.
 
2011-12-25 05:12:16 PM
TV's Vinnie: I have never, ever seen any such "black dots in the corner" while watching a film. Has anyone? Methinks the article's author is pulling a big one out of their ass.

Not for a very long time but they did exist.
 
2011-12-25 05:13:08 PM
TV's Vinnie: I have never, ever seen any such "black dots in the corner" while watching a film. Has anyone? Methinks the article's author is pulling a big one out of their ass.

I notice them every time.

fluffy2097: I'd find a new place to watch movies. Might I suggest your living room?

Yeah, as I'm sitting there noticing that the color convergence is still off, and the fact that they left the light on in the projection booth, one of my hearing aid batteries died. I'm thinking, "if I were at home none of this would be a problem." But I'm a sucker for first-run movies.
 
2011-12-25 05:13:43 PM
fluffy2097: Pestifer: I just tried to see "Tintin" this past week. It was digital projection, but the bulb or whatever they used was so dim that the movie was impossible to watch in 3D once you subtract the light the glasses eat. It was easier to watch in 2D blur-vision.

Some cheap places think turning the brightness down on the projector increases lamp life (The bulb is on or off, brightness is controlled by other things). Others run bulbs longer then they should (Projector bulbs can loose something like 30% of their light output over time according to documentation I've read). You're supposed to run them for X number of hours, instead of until they burn out. Your theater could have been doing either of these boneheaded things, or both!

/Oh the reasons I don't go to the movies any more.
//So many reasons...


Actually, those people who think 'turning the lamp brightness down' will extend the life are technically correct. Xenon lamp brightness is primarily controlled via current, and lowering the current will result in slightly slower degradation of the elements. This has been common practice at many theaters; most are able to get away with it because most people simply don't notice the difference, especially on a 2D presentation.

However with 3D you lose a significant amount of light even before you hit the screen because of the additional processing, and lowering the light source on top of that just makes things drastically worse. Many exhibitors still feel it's worth it though, as the lamps typically run far upwards of $1500 apiece (not including ant costs incurred should a tech be needed to do the replacement) and squeezing an extra 50-60 hours out of a 2K (the most common to my knowledge) lamp can mean a lot to the bottom line when they generally only last about 1500 hours. 50 hours means another 16 shows (averaging 3 hours for preshow ads, trailers, and feature); with 30 people per show (averaging weekends with slower weekdays) and $3 per person, the theater can just about pay for that new lamp.

Still no excuse for a crappy image though.

/DC operations tech
//forcefed most of this info by manager whose family ran large theater chain for 40 years and helped pioneer DC
///number of dispatches for 'dark images on 3D' that turn out to be running lamp in '2D' mode or @80% voltage is just depressing
 
2011-12-25 05:47:44 PM
Mad_Radhu: I also remember reading recently where some theaters were leaving the 3D filters on the projectors when showing 2D movies, which seriously cut down on the brightness. They were leaving them on because they didn't have people who knew how to change the filters properly without triggering the anti-piracy protections and causing it to shut down.

Theaters that leave the 3D lenses or filters in place for 2D shows are either cheap, understaffed, or have very lazy projectionists. As far as I've ever seen there are no copy protection systems for 3D lenses or filters because there's really no need for them a this point. It's not really feasible to record a 3D presentation that isn't being projected properly because the resulting image will be terrible.. polarized systems will be out of convergence and give just about anyone a throbbing migraine or motion sickness from the non-aligned parallax and double images, and alternating frame systems tend to look like it's being projected through a shower curtain. A dirty shower curtain at that.

According to a friend and former co-worker who deals with this stuff for a living, it's theoretically possible to design a camera that could capture and process a properly projected 3D image in 3D, but the technical requirements would be astounding, and pirates aren't known for doing things the hard way when they don't have to. There are far simpler and more convenient points of attack.

/no, I'm not going to tell you about them
//that's where the most protections are anyway
///'people' are still the weakest link
 
2011-12-25 07:37:43 PM
ArcadianRefugee: Nina_Hartley's_Ass: [www.omega-level.net image 640x503]

What was most amazing is that the two movies (Hobo With a Shotgun, Machete) which were developed from the fake trailers within Grindhouse were both way farking better than either of the Grindhouse movies themselves.


Those are good, but personally, I'm still waiting for "Werewolf Women of the SS"
:D
 
2011-12-25 07:59:57 PM
TV's Vinnie: "And you'll no longer see the changeover cues, those black dots that appear in the corner of a film to let a projectionist know when the reels needs to be switched. "

I have never, ever seen any such "black dots in the corner" while watching a film. Has anyone? Methinks the article's author is pulling a big one out of their ass.


I've seen them. One movie I don't know if they were changeover cues specificly, they looked like braille characters, but I saw like 4 or 5 of them in one movie. It was kind of annoying.
 
2011-12-25 08:18:16 PM
Great Porn Dragon: Those are good, but personally, I'm still waiting for "Werewolf Women of the SS"

Or Thanksgiving. It's really the only American Holiday without its own horror movie.

/doesn't want to be snarky and say which is Easter's
 
2011-12-25 08:18:26 PM
BStorm: with 30 people per show (averaging weekends with slower weekdays) and $3 per person, the theater can just about pay for that new lamp.

BStorm, indeed. It's $6 for "matinees," $9 for regular, and $12 for 3D where I live. Some second/third rate theaters can charge $3, but not any built in recent decades, especially near a mall... and they are all near a mall.
 
2011-12-25 08:19:54 PM
Mugato: doesn't want to be snarky and say which is Easter's

Donny Darko?
 
2011-12-25 08:22:11 PM
Ambivalence: TV's Vinnie: "And you'll no longer see the changeover cues, those black dots that appear in the corner of a film to let a projectionist know when the reels needs to be switched. "

I have never, ever seen any such "black dots in the corner" while watching a film. Has anyone? Methinks the article's author is pulling a big one out of their ass.

I've seen them. One movie I don't know if they were changeover cues specificly, they looked like braille characters, but I saw like 4 or 5 of them in one movie. It was kind of annoying.


Did they appear in the middle of the screen? If so, that's not a changeover cue, that's a "watermark" of sorts. They're unique to the print, and it allows the MPAA to track the source of a pirated copy to a theater. It's also annoying as hell.
 
2011-12-25 09:11:40 PM
Mugato: TV's Vinnie: I have never, ever seen any such "black dots in the corner" while watching a film. Has anyone? Methinks the article's author is pulling a big one out of their ass.

Not for a very long time but they did exist.


The last time I remember seeing them in a theater was while I was in college in the mid-90s. The Student Activity Committee ran films every week, and the film would come in on several reels, requiring the projectionist to switch over at the end of every reel, just like in the old days (even by that point, all the commerical theaters had gone to splicing films and puttting them onto a platter so there was no need for change-over).

That said, I still see the marks from time to time on DVDs, when the film's been dubbed from whatever print was on hand (or in some cases, the only surviving print), rather than making a new positive.
 
2011-12-25 09:38:38 PM
With film projectors all I got at my local theaters were out of focus overly bright films that were washed out.

It looked often like someone had cleaned the lens of the projector with steel wool.

With Digital projectors I get a perfect in focus image everytime and don't have to worry about it.

Maybe in Big City america where big fancy theaters can afford to hire fancy projectionists 35 mm may be superior.

But in suburban america where the majority of films are featured theaters wont take the time nor spend the money to keep those machines actually running correctly.

Hence digital cinema is a godsend.
 
2011-12-25 10:38:43 PM
TV's Vinnie: "And you'll no longer see the changeover cues, those black dots that appear in the corner of a film to let a projectionist know when the reels needs to be switched. "

I have never, ever seen any such "black dots in the corner" while watching a film. Has anyone? Methinks the article's author is pulling a big one out of their ass.


If you can happen to find a theater playing actual film instead of digital, pay attention about 15-20 minutes starting from probably the last trailer (the reason is most film prints come with one trailer attached to the film, while the rest of the trailers are manually attached by the projectionist who built the print.) Normal film reels can hold up to 20 minutes' worth of film, so most reels have, roughly, 15-18 minutes of film (they're not usually completely full). Pay attention to the upper right hand side and you will likely see the cigarette burns, one about eight second before the reel change, and the other about one second before the reel change. This will almost always happen at a scene change, although sometimes it will be just a cut from one shot to another (only once or twice have I seen two reels split in the middle of a shot.)

Also as mentioned above, if you watch an older movie that was taken directly from an old print, you will see the cigarette burns there as well. I seem to recall watching National Lampoon's Vacation and seeing cigarette burns on the DVD.
 
2011-12-25 11:40:39 PM
Heh...flashback time

Used to work in TV Master Control and we had some late night movies (and the original Spiderman & Rocket Robin Hood) on film.

When the telecine woud jam, I'd go flying from my booth, cursing like a one-eyed carpenter all the while, and franticly try to fix the film or projector. When you fingers like Kubasa there's not much room in them projectors.

/can I get a CSB?
 
2011-12-25 11:48:15 PM
Fish in a Barrel: Ambivalence: TV's Vinnie: "And you'll no longer see the changeover cues, those black dots that appear in the corner of a film to let a projectionist know when the reels needs to be switched. "

I have never, ever seen any such "black dots in the corner" while watching a film. Has anyone? Methinks the article's author is pulling a big one out of their ass.

I've seen them. One movie I don't know if they were changeover cues specificly, they looked like braille characters, but I saw like 4 or 5 of them in one movie. It was kind of annoying.

Did they appear in the middle of the screen? If so, that's not a changeover cue, that's a "watermark" of sorts. They're unique to the print, and it allows the MPAA to track the source of a pirated copy to a theater. It's also annoying as hell.


I saw that done as bloodstains on the screen during a fade after they found the empty grave in Sherlock Holmes a few years ago. They can find an artsy way to do it if they arnt lazy.

/Plus, like Dr. Venture always said
//If you want to hide something, leave it where everybody can see it.
 
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