And they both charge you an arm and a leg for maintenance and repairs.

Sure, I'll work for those car companies, but I'll keep my Toyota and Ford for when I actually need to go somewhere.

GAT_00: So, the difference is they don't have Republicans in Germany.

THIS

Maybe the difference is in the unions. Here it is protect seniority at all costs, protect the lazy. (Have been in 3 unions and was chastised when I wanted to put a full 8 hours of actual work in) and the goal is seeing what you can get away with not doing. The unavailability of moving you workers around to where you need them, job classification or not. Here it is a method of taking care of only those that have been here the most years, especially in any promotions to better positions, not what you know, or got an education for, but how long you have suckled. That is the problem with unions in America

I work for Toyota and they pay $28 per hour after 5 years. About 40% of workers that build your cars there are "temps" through Aerotek at $16 per hour with no pay raises. That's the secret.

downstairs: Ok, I know. They actually have plants all across the world. As well, all international car companies who sell in the US generally make/assemble most or all their cars in the US.

I saw somewhere (can't find it now) where a Ford SUV was compared to a VW SUV... and the VW was much more "American" than the Ford.

As well, most of the times the "foreign" car your're buying is coming from a US corporataion (American Honda Motor Company, Inc.)

That Honda pretty much a full-on American car.

I love getting into this argument with fellow NASCAR fans who hate that Toyota entered the sport.

The domestic and foreign difference isn't where the car was assembled but who did the design, engineering and development of the car. Sure, there is a Honda of America Inc. but do you think they do primary R&D in the US? Do you think the Honda of America Inc. has any interest in developing new technology centers like the battery centers they are developing in Michigan? Most R&D centers of Toyota and Honda in the US are just outposts. You buy an American car because you want cars to be designed and engineered in the US and not because you want them to be assembled in the US.

So a car is only American where it's incepted? Damn son! I guys all cars are generally American seeing as all of them evolved from an original American design. But, what really makes a car a car are wheels. The wheel was invented in a cave somewhere in Africa...So all my cars are African?! Mind blown!

Weaver95: parties based on ideals of virulent nationalism and torture don't do very well in Germany. its been that way ever since WWII.

Most successful parties in Germany involve copious amounts of beer. It has been that way ever since... ever.

downstairs: violentsalvation: They make up the difference by building plants in right to work states, which subby conveniently left out of the headline. Also, they have a brand reputation that sells, even though it is mostly bullsh*t.

I was sure you were spouting BS, because I figured if German car companies are doing this... why wouldn't Ford and GM move to the south (that's where you find more right to work states.)

But, indeed (via Wikipedia), the southernmost plant I could find for Ford is Kentucky. And the sheer majority are on the great lakes.

No wonder they're bankrupt.

Because there is this little things called the UAW, lol

Because People in power are Stupid: Companies from socialist Germany realize that it takes more than slave wages to make happy, successful employees.

None of this fits into logic. If a company finds that workers in Germany that are paid more work harder (to the point of making more money), why don't they do the same thing in the US?

Here's another hypothesis for you to consider: most of the higher value work for BMW, Mercedes and BMW, like styling, engine design, materials testing, electrics and marketing are done in Germany. And all the lower value work, like being on the production line is done elsewhere.

That might be true for their few permanent employees, i.e. management and engineering.but the actual manufacturing is mostly done by semi-permanent temp workers who get paid a lot less, if it's not outsourced to other countries with much lower wages altogether.

hoosier7400: So a car is only American where it's incepted? Damn son! I guys all cars are generally American seeing as all of them evolved from an original American design. But, what really makes a car a car are wheels. The wheel was invented in a cave somewhere in Africa...So all my cars are African?! Mind blown!

The modern 4-stroke gasoline-powered car was invented in Germany by Karl Benz, dipshiat. So all cars are German. The auto assembly line was perfected in the US by Ford, sure, but the car is not an American invention.

hoosier7400: So a car is only American where it's incepted? Damn son! I guys all cars are generally American seeing as all of them evolved from an original American design.

Funny, and here I thought the car was invented by Carl Benz, of Germany.

GAT_00: So, the difference is they don't have Republicans in Germany.

Well, not outside insane asylums, anyway.

/American Democrats = European right wing conservative
//American Republicans = European involuntary mental asylum inmate

Yeah, but if you have a BMW, you're an asshole.

It's a longish article, so I confess to not reading beyond the first page. But it does note that they are mostly comparing German wages and benefits to US wages and benefits. American-based German plants do show up near the bottom of the page.

Allow me to add something to the equation: Germany has a much more socialized medical system than the US. US companies are paying for stuff German ones don't.

I also suspect that German companies are run with a lot fewer layers of fat, paper shuffling management, but can't prove it.

TeddyRooseveltsMustache: Yeah, but if you have a BMW, you're an asshole.

And if you own a VW you're a nerd.

//own a VW

TeddyRooseveltsMustache: Yeah, but if you have a BMW, you're an asshole.

I have a 135i and an M3. Does that make me a double asshole?

/Trying *NOT* to be an asshole

neilbradley: I have a 135i and an M3. Does that make me a double asshole?

/Trying *NOT* to be an asshole

I think you answered your own question.

violentsalvation: They make up the difference by building plants in right to work states, which subby conveniently left out of the headline. Also, they have a brand reputation that sells, even though it is mostly bullsh*t.

Doesn't matter. They still make cars in Germany where it is heavily unionized. So apparently they can make strong Auto worker unions work in Germany but not here?

So right-to-work means shiat in this case.

Asa Phelps: I Have The Touch of a Shocked Monkey: Luxury cars cost a lot of money, providing much profit to luxury car companies. Ric Romero will give us the full scoop at 11.

a jetta is a luxury car?

Came here to say this; In Europe, VWs, BMWs, amd Mercedes's are just cars. Luxury cars are the exotics.

No mention of the plague that is temp workers?

mr0x: You buy an American car because you want cars to be designed and engineered in the US and not because you want them to be assembled in the US.

You buy American because you want to employ your fellow Americans. Assembly creates many more jobs, even with automation, than design and engineering.

//I don't own a car, but my wife has a 2004 Saturn Ion (with approximately 40,000 miles- we're not car people).

Marcus Aurelius: Sure they're profitable, but their CEOs are horribly underpaid.

Wait, you're telling me there are places in the world where CEO's are underpaid?

Tell me more about this fantasyland. ;)

I know a guy who hates unions in the US, like full on Union Derangement Syndrome. But he loves German Unions to death. I don't get it.

neilbradley: TeddyRooseveltsMustache: Yeah, but if you have a BMW, you're an asshole.

I have a 135i and an M3. Does that make me a double asshole?

/Trying *NOT* to be an asshole

No. That just makes you a farking idiot for buying a even more marked-up Mini Cooper (your 1-series). The M3 I have no problems with, though I do wish they offered it in a 4-door saloon as opposed to the coupé...

Wow, the author really slipped one by there.

"Average compensation (a figure including wages and employer-paid benefits) for autoworkers in Germany was 48.97 Euros per hour ($67.14 US), while compensation for auto work in the United States averaged $33.77 per hour, or about half as much as in Germany"

See what he did? He's comparing ALL benefits in Germany with only hourly wages in the U.S. - if you compare "all benefits" to "all benefits," they're about even. When you see that $33.77, remember that it's based on flat wages with zero benefits cost included, while the German figure specifically DOES include things like pensions and other costs.

When you look at wages versus wages, the difference drops dramatically, too.

It gets even more interesting when you notice that Germany shed a lot of auto manufacturing jobs over the last decade. Most of their subsidiary manufacturing (parts for those big assembly plants) moved to much-cheaper Eastern European plants - which pay even less than those Southern manufacturing plants some people whine about.

t3knomanser: mr0x: You buy an American car because you want cars to be designed and engineered in the US and not because you want them to be assembled in the US.

You buy American because you want to employ your fellow Americans. Assembly creates many more jobs, even with automation, than design and engineering.

//I don't own a car, but my wife has a 2004 Saturn Ion (with approximately 40,000 miles- we're not car people).

Screw those assholes, I don't care if some dickweed in Kentucky has a job

Coelacanth: GAT_00: So, the difference is they don't have Republicans in Germany.

THIS

The manufacturing facilities for BMW, Mercedes-Benz, Volkswagen: South Carolina, Alabama, Tennessee. All are RED STATES.

hicksfa2: neilbradley: TeddyRooseveltsMustache: Yeah, but if you have a BMW, you're an asshole.

I have a 135i and an M3. Does that make me a double asshole?

/Trying *NOT* to be an asshole

No. That just makes you a farking idiot for buying a even more marked-up Mini Cooper (your 1-series). The M3 I have no problems with, though I do wish they offered it in a 4-door saloon as opposed to the coupé...

Funny you should say that - I owned a 2006 Mini S and the 135i is 10X the car the Mini was, especially in the engine department. Better interior, better handling, and almost double the power.

The M3 is offered in a 4 door - that's what I have (2011 M3). Maybe it's a regional thing?

And they make crap that only a fool would purchase. Few cars more expensive to own than a three-five year old German car.

German cars were really good, back when they could charge fark-you money for them. Then the Japanese companies shifted upmarket with Lexus/Infiniti/Acura and they had to cut costs and add gimmicky crap.

/owner of a 25 year old German car
/cost of ownership in the past 60k: $300 for tires. And it's got 340k on it. Miles.

lwpengy: Maybe the difference is in the unions. Here it is protect seniority at all costs, protect the lazy. (Have been in 3 unions and was chastised when I wanted to put a full 8 hours of actual work in) and the goal is seeing what you can get away with not doing. The unavailability of moving you workers around to where you need them, job classification or not. Here it is a method of taking care of only those that have been here the most years, especially in any promotions to better positions, not what you know, or got an education for, but how long you have suckled. That is the problem with unions in America

thats the problem with America as a whole. Virtually everyone in the whole country is a humongous self-entitled asshole who can't view past their own family. Everyone is only out for themselves and fark everyone else, even if it means hurting themselves, which it always does. The entire culture is just plain selfish in the worst of ways. fark, the Romans had better income equality including the slaves. And the people that are worse off than Roman slaves will defend their status to the death.

cirby: Wow, the author really slipped one by there.

"Average compensation (a figure including wages and employer-paid benefits) for autoworkers in Germany was 48.97 Euros per hour ($67.14 US), while compensation for auto work in the United States averaged $33.77 per hour, or about half as much as in Germany"

See what he did? He's comparing ALL benefits in Germany with only hourly wages in the U.S. - if you compare "all benefits" to "all benefits," they're about even. When you see that $33.77, remember that it's based on flat wages with zero benefits cost included, while the German figure specifically DOES include things like pensions and other costs.

When you look at wages versus wages, the difference drops dramatically, too.

It gets even more interesting when you notice that Germany shed a lot of auto manufacturing jobs over the last decade. Most of their subsidiary manufacturing (parts for those big assembly plants) moved to much-cheaper Eastern European plants - which pay even less than those Southern manufacturing plants some people whine about.

.....no it quite clearly says compensation for both. Also, most of the german cars are produced in germany.

Here's the thing, socialism is fine. Capitalism is fine. Communism is fine. Any of these make great options when you stick to the ideology. The problem with the US -- on all fronts -- is the "capitalism/free market/low taxes when things are fine, socialism/too big to fail/lower their taxes when things go south". When you don't stay on the message -- things go to shiat.

Germany is an example of a country who handles their shiat in both good and bad times. The US lets corporations gouge us with loopholes, incentives, and tax breaks as if trickle down was honestly a reasonable expectation.

Unions in the US, for that matter, are a part of the problem. They play the game and support the status quo. Why wouldn't they? Their leaders are set so long as things don't change in their lifetimes.

But by all means, stay divided and arguing over petty shiat like h car makers run their businesses.

/Hijacked Airliners + Capitol = Solution?