If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(Mother Nature Network) Interesting Forget antidepressants and talk therapy. The best way to overcome your depression is a fistful of placebo pills   (mnn.com) divider line 98
More: Interesting, clinical psychologist, placebos  
•       •       •

4049 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 Dec 2011 at 11:14 AM   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»   |    Get this fabulous T-Shirt and impress the methane out of your friends! shirt it!



98 Comments   (+0 »)
   

First | « | 1 | 2 | » | Last | Show all
 
2011-12-24 09:01:44 AM
What a placebo pill might look like:
i1099.photobucket.com

/yes I'm drunk at 7am on xmas eve, what's it to ya'?
 
2011-12-24 10:45:57 AM
walkerhound: What a placebo pill might look like:
[i1099.photobucket.com image 300x300]

/yes I'm drunk at 7am on xmas eve, what's it to ya'?


hey, just sounds like you ae getting into the Christmas spirits.
 
2011-12-24 10:52:32 AM
In related news, I am starting a new pharmaceutical company selling my own antidepressent drug, "Farkall". I plan to contract out the manufacturing process to the makers of Tic-Tacs. BTW, my product has been proven to be as effective as the the most commonly prescribed antidepressent, but costs 20% less!
 
2011-12-24 11:16:43 AM
gwydion56: I am starting a new pharmaceutical company selling my own antidepressent drug, "Farkall".

Wouldn't that "Farkitall" ?
 
2011-12-24 11:18:19 AM
encyclopediaplushuman: gwydion56: I am starting a new pharmaceutical company selling my own antidepressent drug, "Farkall".

Wouldn't that "Farkitall" ?


No, that's the brand of bullets.
 
2011-12-24 11:20:02 AM
Forget antidepressants and talk therapy. The best way to overcome your depression is a fistful of Xanax and Percocet

FTFY
 
2011-12-24 11:21:17 AM
Vicodin is not a placebo!
 
2011-12-24 11:21:49 AM
Stop it!

/$5 please
// I don't make change
 
2011-12-24 11:22:43 AM
Fat-D: Forget antidepressants and talk therapy. The best way to overcome your depression is a fistful of Xanax and Percocet

FTFY


you wash that down with malt liquor, that there is the breakfast of champions
 
2011-12-24 11:22:52 AM
I thought the best way to get over depression was to suck it up, pick yourself up, be a man (or woman) and get the damn job done.
 
2011-12-24 11:23:04 AM
What a fistful looks like...

1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2011-12-24 11:23:10 AM
This is depressing
 
F42
2011-12-24 11:30:40 AM
Talk therapy == placebo;

It only works if you think it'll work.
 
2011-12-24 11:32:02 AM
imagonyx123: What a fistful looks like...

[1.bp.blogspot.com image 400x225]


Our surgeons did what they could, but it took them two hours just to get the smile off his face.
 
2011-12-24 11:33:05 AM
It's all in your head
 
2011-12-24 11:33:44 AM
I love placebos!

/easily entertained
 
2011-12-24 11:36:04 AM
Well, that solves everything. Clearly psychiatry is merely a fraud. Tom Cruise was right all along!

So maniacs, schizophrenics, obsessive-compulsives, stop taking your meds. Cancel your appointments with all those quacks. You're merely differently abled and a bunch of big crybabies who need to suck it up and accept that the man just can't handle the reality that you're a unique and beautiful snowflake with a talking dog and an acute awareness of all the people out there who are trying to hold you down.
 
2011-12-24 11:40:53 AM
There was an article about this in Wired (new window) some time ago. When they do clinical trials of anti-depressants they aren't comparing to not taking anything, they are just trying to beat the placebo.

Placebo isn't just for treating depression either. In the article above they talk about how it works for treating pain and Parkinson's.

It also shows why the attitude the doctor has can even change your outcome. If the doctor makes you think that the pills will work- that could increase the Placebo Effect. And imagine how difficult it would to do a huge study when you have to have all of the doctors using the exact same attitude with each patient?

/also note that in the small study in the article a different treatment worked best for each group- placebo was best for white men but for African American men talk therapy was better... need more research...
 
2011-12-24 11:46:11 AM
Placebos only work if you're a blithering toe-chewing moron.
 
2011-12-24 11:46:29 AM
These people just need to see their Happiness officer
All hail friend computer
 
2011-12-24 11:48:06 AM
indylaw: Well, that solves everything. Clearly psychiatry is merely a fraud. Tom Cruise was right all along!

So maniacs, schizophrenics, obsessive-compulsives, stop taking your meds. Cancel your appointments with all those quacks. You're merely differently abled and a bunch of big crybabies who need to suck it up and accept that the man just can't handle the reality that you're a unique and beautiful snowflake with a talking dog and an acute awareness of all the people out there who are trying to hold you down.


This article mentioned depression only. Nowhere did it say anything about schizophrenia or obsessive-compulsive disorder.

It's been known for decades that antidepressants are bunk. While normally, drug companies will do medical trials in eastern europe, india, and other exotic locales simply because they're cheaper to perform there, they abandoned doing tests of SSRI inhibitors and other antidepressants there decades ago - because they were getting negative results. In cultures that don't recognize "depression" as a thing, antidepressants have no measurable effect.
 
2011-12-24 11:48:59 AM
And they didn't even use an active placebo. Most antidepressant studies that used an active placebo - a drug that creates some sort of "side effect", rather than just a sugar pill - have found that the placebo effect dramatically increases.
 
2011-12-24 11:50:40 AM
Max Awesome: Placebos only work if you're a blithering toe-chewing moron.

Not really...all they need to work is for you to have some hope faith or belief that you're getting real meds that will have a real effect. The placebo effect is real, and has been getting measurably stronger over the last few decades. It's likely a side effect of the advances science has given us, and public awareness of such.
 
2011-12-24 11:52:21 AM
I find that sex can clear my depression symptoms rather nicely. I've not used the vicodin / xanax approach advocated by others in the thread. I've found that while alcohol doesn't really help the symptoms of depression go away, it does put some distance between myself and those feelings, so that's a plus - and it's easier to obtain than sex (yes, I am a married man, no further explanation necessary) when you need immediate relief. Also, certain herbal remedies can distract me to the point of forgetting about the depression and either make me go to sleep, contemplate, or if it's really good herbal remedy think a long time about things I haven't thought about. Lastly, exercise seems to help quite a bit, but it must be your first option - because if you've had sex, consumed alcohol, or burned some of your favorite herbal supplements, exercise - due to it's requirement that you have the will to accomplish something - will not get done.
 
2011-12-24 11:52:55 AM
img841.imageshack.us

Depression Cured!
 
2011-12-24 11:52:58 AM
walkerhound: What a placebo pill might look like:
[i1099.photobucket.com image 300x300]

/yes I'm drunk at 7am on xmas eve, what's it to ya'?


Nah, that's booze. That's good medicine. This would be the placebo.

2.bp.blogspot.com
 
2011-12-24 11:53:17 AM
Personally,I prefer the 5ft tree mentioned earlier. That and a bottle of 12yo,single malt,Scotch.Of course,at my age,a rip roaring erection would make me smile.
 
2011-12-24 11:56:47 AM
Or get laid.
 
2011-12-24 11:58:38 AM
So people are depressed because of shiat going on in their lives maybe? They have good reason to feel bad - and taking a pill doesn't change those circumstances.
 
2011-12-24 11:59:58 AM
Lexx: It's been known for decades that antidepressants are bunk.

Man, I don't even know if you're trolling or really this stupid. 7/10 I guess.

Anyhoo, randomly assigning one drug to a group of depression patients is usually not going to have a strong positive effect - anyone with knowledge of the mental health field knows there's a lot of trial-and-error with working out what drugs the patient responds well to, what dosage and so on. Even so, it beat both the placebo and the therapy groups, albeit possibly not to a statistically significant degree (irritatingly, the article doesn't actually say).

I'd really like to read the original study, and not a piece by "Mother Nature Network", which doesn't seem to be the most scientifically rigorous or unbiased of publications.
 
2011-12-24 12:01:44 PM
F42: Talk therapy == placebo;

It only works if you think it'll work.


This is a good point. Also explains why the placebo vs Prozac is more or less effective in different regions of the world. If the people are suspicious about taking a pill to cure something it won't be as effective. In the US, where we are used to popping pills for everything, love them, and think they can fix all of our problems- they are more effective.
 
2011-12-24 12:07:19 PM
Gunther: Lexx: It's been known for decades that antidepressants are bunk.

Man, I don't even know if you're trolling or really this stupid. 7/10 I guess.

Anyhoo, randomly assigning one drug to a group of depression patients is usually not going to have a strong positive effect - anyone with knowledge of the mental health field knows there's a lot of trial-and-error with working out what drugs the patient responds well to, what dosage and so on. Even so, it beat both the placebo and the therapy groups, albeit possibly not to a statistically significant degree (irritatingly, the article doesn't actually say).

I'd really like to read the original study, and not a piece by "Mother Nature Network", which doesn't seem to be the most scientifically rigorous or unbiased of publications.


Ok, MY judgement is "antidepressants are bunk". I'm making this judgement based on the fact that, outside of the western world, they don't farking work. Which means that there's some socio/cultural factors at play, which means placebo effect. I should limit my condemnation of antidepressants to SSRI reuptake inhibitors. Other classic antidepressants like lithium pretty much work wherever you go. I remember reading of one township in Japan whose water is tainted with lithium...and has a statistically anomalously low suicide rate.
 
2011-12-24 12:07:53 PM
Then why do some antidepressants work better in certain people than others? i.e., why do some people respond to Celexa but not Prozac?
 
2011-12-24 12:12:32 PM
WARNING: Not a Placebo!

images.fanpop.com

Treats my depression just fine, Roy. And my insomnia. And my arthritis. AND my...
 
2011-12-24 12:13:31 PM
Lexx: This article mentioned depression only. Nowhere did it say anything about schizophrenia or obsessive-compulsive disorder.

But you know that there are many who would use this as "evidence" that mental illness is nonexistent and Big Pharma/Big Psych are in a conspiracy to medicate us all.

It's been known for decades that antidepressants are bunk.

Your creative use of the passive voice leads me to use the Wiki edit tag [who?]

While normally, drug companies will do medical trials in eastern europe, india, and other exotic locales simply because they're cheaper to perform there, they abandoned doing tests of SSRI inhibitors and other antidepressants there decades ago - because they were getting negative results.

Citation?

In cultures that don't recognize "depression" as a thing, antidepressants have no measurable effect.

I don't think there's a single major culture that doesn't recognize depression as a "thing" or otherwise. There may differences among the medical establishments of various countries on its definition, but sadness or numbness that has no obvious situational cause is a universal phenomenon.

Now, you could say that a lot of people in the United States and Western Europe push a depression diagnosis for themselves because we conflate depression with sadness in general, and that many psychiatrists will simply check the box and prescribe Zoloft, but that's a different thing.
 
2011-12-24 12:17:33 PM
elchip: Then why do some antidepressants work better in certain people than others? i.e., why do some people respond to Celexa but not Prozac?

Well, let's consider:
-you can't actually get a measure of someone's dopamine, serotonin, etc levels directly. You have to ask them survey questions about their state of mind.
-their state of mind is influenced by every external input and stimulus in their lives, including the pill they're taking. It's impossible to fully separate those.
-You can't fully separate neuro chemistry and psychology. There's a feedback loop going on there.

With what we know of the placebo effect and how powerful the mind's expectations of a drug can be, it could simply be that one drug has more noticeable side effects than the other, and simply being aware of the side effects makes the mind experience a strong primary effect.

So let's see...

-you can't measure the brain's chemical balance directly
-you can't standardize someone's psyche, so for a single patient there can be no scientific "control" as someone's state of mine today, not on drugs, might be wildly different from last year, also, not on drugs.
-placebo effect

Honestly it might just be a per-patient crap shoot. Get them at the right psychological state, right place in their lives, with the right drug (or any drug) with enough side effects to convince them it's working, and the right doctor bedside manner to reinforce the placebo.
 
2011-12-24 12:19:27 PM
Depression is a chemical imbalance in the brain but when it goes beyond the normal factor of 'the blues' and becomes a chronic, long lasting condition accompanied by a host of secondary characteristics, then it involves the thought processes and emotional structure.

Placebos have been known to work for mild depression, but the conditions known as major depression, manic depression and bipolar depression are considered much more serious and more deeply rooted. They tend to periodically affect the thought processes, can be caused by changes in chemicals in the brain and secondary symptom logy can include Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, suicidal thoughts or tendencies, lethargy, agoraphobia, rapid mood swings and/or violent tendencies.

It can also include visual and auditory hallucinations along with a withdrawal from society.

Previous cures for depression have been observed like major life changes. Winning the lottery has a great potential as a cure. Landing your dream job, moving to a better neighborhood, surrounding yourself with friends who are caring, supportive and concerned, getting out of major debt or even finding that special someone you've been looking for all of your life -- and have him/her respond.

One of the problems with chronic depression is that it takes a long time to form and become deep rooted. Basically, your brain learns to be depressed and you wind up fighting yourself to get back to normal, but your brain knows every secret weakness you have and uses them against you.

A major amount of alcoholics are self medicating depressives. So are many hard core drug users. Suicide rates among depressives tend to be high.

Depression, in the majority of it's forms, is curable, but it is usually a lengthy process, increasing with the amount of time the person has been affected and the version of depression they have.

Around 30 years ago, a group of psychiatry students performed and experiment at the college they attended. They selected a specific group of students to study and work with without their knowledge. These students were under achievers, wall flowers, shy, had few friends, kept to themselves a lot and some had symptoms of depression and anxiety. These were the people who sat in the back of the class, didn't attend parties, had low self confidence, avoided sports events and didn't join clubs or organizations.

The psychology majors used 'supportive' therapy. They started praising the experimental group, taking an interest in them, accenting their good points, including them in social activities, watching out for them, being encouraging, sympathetic and caring.

The end result was a nearly 98% change in the subject group. They became more confident, more outgoing, happier, performed better, made more friends and in many cases, those with depression returned to normal. Those with anxiety became much less anxious. The shy ones fit in better.

It was a spectacular success for non-pharmaceutical therapy.

However, nothing was mentioned as to what happened to the test group once the experiment was over and most of the support withdrawn. I assume there was a high rate of recidivism. Still, there would have been a large percentage who would have their lives changed for the better.

While interesting, this form of therapy isn't practical since it involves a large group of people working almost around the clock to reinforce the desired changes in the subject group. Today, such a therapy would be tremendously expensive.

However, it did show what could happen if you lived in a supportive area with people you got along with and who were not preoccupied with their own personal problems and gripes.

The rates of chronic depression would be low, which would also improve the general health of the people.

Though, good luck in finding such a supportive area. Until then, pharmaceuticals are the best bet. They offer a cheaper way to change the chemical imbalance of the brain and combined with talk therapy, can dramatically reduce or alleviate the depression in many cases.

Remember, it usually takes years for a person to develop severe depression, meaning it can also take years for them to recover from it.
 
2011-12-24 12:22:43 PM
indylaw: Lexx: This article mentioned depression only. Nowhere did it say anything about schizophrenia or obsessive-compulsive disorder.

But you know that there are many who would use this as "evidence" that mental illness is nonexistent and Big Pharma/Big Psych are in a conspiracy to medicate us all.

It's been known for decades that antidepressants are bunk.

Your creative use of the passive voice leads me to use the Wiki edit tag [who?]

While normally, drug companies will do medical trials in eastern europe, india, and other exotic locales simply because they're cheaper to perform there, they abandoned doing tests of SSRI inhibitors and other antidepressants there decades ago - because they were getting negative results.

Citation?

In cultures that don't recognize "depression" as a thing, antidepressants have no measurable effect.

I don't think there's a single major culture that doesn't recognize depression as a "thing" or otherwise. There may differences among the medical establishments of various countries on its definition, but sadness or numbness that has no obvious situational cause is a universal phenomenon.

Now, you could say that a lot of people in the United States and Western Europe push a depression diagnosis for themselves because we conflate depression with sadness in general, and that many psychiatrists will simply check the box and prescribe Zoloft, but that's a different thing.


I'm trying to find the articles I read (several years ago) to cite. Honestly I doubt I'll be able to back it up with numbers. The article wasn't trying to debunk, it was actually discussing the real difficulties in running international drug trials of any psychoactive agent, because the results aren't predictable from culture to culture. It said SSRI re-uptake inhibitors were the trickiest of all to study abroad.
 
2011-12-24 12:22:45 PM
Wear headphones in bed to keep the voices at bay.
 
2011-12-24 12:23:13 PM
Stone Meadow: WARNING: Not a Placebo!

[images.fanpop.com image 640x607]

Treats my depression just fine, Roy. And my insomnia. And my arthritis. AND my...


You cured me!
 
2011-12-24 12:24:03 PM
Lexx: Ok, MY judgement is "antidepressants are bunk". I'm making this judgement based on the fact that, outside of the western world, they don't farking work.

You keep saying that, and yet I've yet to see a citation, and my googling skills haven't found anything but crackpot anti-psych pages to back it up.

Do you also think vaccines cause autism? That aids can be cured with diet changes?
 
2011-12-24 12:24:27 PM
If you want to see the face of depression...
virgins-until-marriage.eu
http://virgins-until-marriage.eu/virginity_and_personal_health.htm
 
2011-12-24 12:27:01 PM
Unbelievers!
 
2011-12-24 12:27:19 PM
Bacon is Meat Candy: So people are depressed because of shiat going on in their lives maybe? They have good reason to feel bad - and taking a pill doesn't change those circumstances.


I know people call depression a complex disease but I wonder if the source of the problems usually the same. When I was younger, depression always meant girl problems. As I got older, it was always due to money problems or by career choices that weren't what I really wanted. I always wondered if it was the same for most people.

As I solved my problems, I was able to cure my depression. If a girl is getting you depressed, then improve your game and have options open so that something pans out. If you have money problems, budget and become a tight-wad until it's solved. If you're unhappy about your career choices, plan for it and quit your job and go start a job in what you really want to do. Why isn't curing depression solving your underlying problem?

I was diagnosed with depression, saw counselors and took pills but it didn't help. Taking the pill does make you a little relaxed but you are in the same shiatty situation you were in yesterday. You can talk and explain your situation to a counselor but all I felt was that I was doing was going around in big fat circles and coming up with pointless conclusions that didn't help. I just think pills and counseling is a bit waste of time, time you could use to solve your problems.
 
2011-12-24 12:27:19 PM
Rik01: Depression is a chemical imbalance in the brain but when it goes beyond the normal factor of 'the blues' and becomes a chronic, long lasting condition accompanied by a host of secondary characteristics, then it involves the thought processes and emotional structure.

Placebos have been known to work for mild depression, but the conditions known as major depression, manic depression and bipolar depression are considered much more serious and more deeply rooted. They tend to periodically affect the thought processes, can be caused by changes in chemicals in the brain and secondary symptom logy can include Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, suicidal thoughts or tendencies, lethargy, agoraphobia, rapid mood swings and/or violent tendencies.

It can also include visual and auditory hallucinations along with a withdrawal from society.

Previous cures for depression have been observed like major life changes. Winning the lottery has a great potential as a cure. Landing your dream job, moving to a better neighborhood, surrounding yourself with friends who are caring, supportive and concerned, getting out of major debt or even finding that special someone you've been looking for all of your life -- and have him/her respond.

One of the problems with chronic depression is that it takes a long time to form and become deep rooted. Basically, your brain learns to be depressed and you wind up fighting yourself to get back to normal, but your brain knows every secret weakness you have and uses them against you.

A major amount of alcoholics are self medicating depressives. So are many hard core drug users. Suicide rates among depressives tend to be high.

Depression, in the majority of it's forms, is curable, but it is usually a lengthy process, increasing with the amount of time the person has been affected and the version of depression they have.

Around 30 years ago, a group of psychiatry students performed and experiment at the college they attended. They selected a specific group ...


So...depression is really then just a failure to cope with being mediocre?
 
2011-12-24 12:29:55 PM
I am in no way an expert but from my life experience it seems that there are a lot of people who need to be "depressed" to be happy. They seem to actively seek out soap opera type drama. They also seem to like to post about the self imposed drama on facebook. So in my non-expert opinion the depression is the "drug" for these people.
 
2011-12-24 12:31:07 PM
Best cure for depression:

12 bottles Heineken;
4 shots good bourbon;
1 pipeful top grade schwag.

------------- works for me.
 
2011-12-24 12:31:55 PM
Lexx: I'm trying to find the articles I read (several years ago) to cite. Honestly I doubt I'll be able to back it up with numbers. The article wasn't trying to debunk, it was actually discussing the real difficulties in running international drug trials of any psychoactive agent, because the results aren't predictable from culture to culture. It said SSRI re-uptake inhibitors were the trickiest of all to study abroad.

Aside from cultural factors, I think it's worth considering that there are different socio-economic factors at issue. Depression as it is often understood in the West is often diagnosed because a person who is expected to function at a high level of alertness and performance for indefinite periods of time find themselves suddenly crippled by anxiety. People that seek out psychiatric help for themselves tend to have the means to pay for a psychiatrist. As a result, a lot of people in the United States and similar Western countries who come in for symptoms which fall within the checkboxes of DSM-IV major depression or anxiety disorders are professionals or university students who are constantly basking in job stress and find themselves unable to cope with pressures which are quite different from the pressures other people in developing countries face from actual dangers of starvation or violence.

Turns out that if you only sleep for four hours a day and feel under constant scrutiny to work 70 hours a week at a high-stakes job and maintain a family and take care of personal needs and appear to all who observe you as a superhuman, you can wear your brain out.
 
2011-12-24 12:32:32 PM
Gunther: Lexx: Ok, MY judgement is "antidepressants are bunk". I'm making this judgement based on the fact that, outside of the western world, they don't farking work.

You keep saying that, and yet I've yet to see a citation, and my googling skills haven't found anything but crackpot anti-psych pages to back it up.

Do you also think vaccines cause autism? That aids can be cured with diet changes?


Bah, I'm trying and failing to find the damn article. No, I understand the science of vaccines, have a good grasp of the multiheaded monster that is autism, and no, I don't think a suppressed immune system can be cured with dietary modulation.

The vexing fact of psychiatry is that you can't separate neuro chemistry from psychology, so there's really no clean way to study a brain. You study the highly abstracted self-reported mental state of the high level mind sitting atop the brain. Placebo effect is measurably stronger in cultures that do a lot of antidepressant treatments. I can't say there's a causation but there's definitely a correlation.
 
2011-12-24 12:32:44 PM
StoPPeRmobile: Stone Meadow: WARNING: Not a Placebo!

[images.fanpop.com image 640x607]

Treats my depression just fine, Roy. And my insomnia. And my arthritis. AND my...

You cured me!


Oh, and my California-licensed primary-care physician concurs, and recommended this treatment to me in accordance with state law. To comply with his recommendation I purchased 4 plants last spring from a state-licensed dispensary to grow in my back yard garden, which in time produced just over 2 pounds of medicine. At my present rate of usage that should just last me until next year's harvest. *twothumbsup.jpg*
 
Displayed 50 of 98 comments

First | « | 1 | 2 | » | Last | Show all


This thread is closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »