bingethinker: Why is this stupid, Subby? My 80 year old parents already have everything they want or need, and I don't really want or need any of the crap they will buy for me. If we just got together and had a nice meal and some wine, that would be fine. And we'd all have a couple of hundred bucks less on our credit card bills.

It's stupid, frankly, because the economist in question is dealing with stuff like "vaporized satisfaction", and is generally equating perceived value inefficiency with wealth destruction, based on the premise that because you don't know exactly what a person's preferences are, the person receiving that gift will not value it as highly as you did when you paid the purchase price.

Even if you are going to make sweeping pronouncements about the amount of "wasted" economic activity based on people's goddamn feelings, which is farking retarded, by the way, it totally ignores the value of the experience of receiving a gift: I buy myself a bottle of Maker's Mark, I go pour myself a drink while watching SportsCenter and go about my existence. If someone else buys me that as a gift, I receive the commodity in question, but also the knowledge that that person cares enough about me to think about what I like and buy me something. If this were a serious field of economic endeavor, that feeling would be quantified right alongside the perceived value of the gift on the part of the recipient.

Like anyone else writing a book with some attention-grabbing facile arguments and an "-enomics" suffix in the title, he may be good at enriching himself, but he's absolute dogshiat at actually being an economist.

/not submitter, btw

I like this guy!

Benevolent Misanthrope: Yknow what really gets me? This guy is the guy who has the say-so in US Economics about whether we're actually in a recession. If someone with this retarded a premise can become a research associate at NBER, who the fark else have they got over there making decisions?

I sincerely hope that all of this is trolling to sell books, and that he doesn't actually believe what he's saying.

What a Scrooge.

How else are you supposed pacify your wife, keep your mistress quiet, and force your kids to wear ridiculous clothing?

While I fully agree you should just randomly buy stupid gift, I think gift giving is great. In particular, you use it as a time to try and get people things they'd like, but aren't aware of or won't get themselves. It's always great when you can find something that delights a person you care about.

How can you write a book on Christmas gift-giving and not understand the goddamn point of gifts? What is it with economists that makes them disregard non-monetary factors like friendship and social cohesion? If you can't put a pricetag on something, it doesn't exist?

What an asshole. Of course, he's probably selling thousands of books from all the publicity he's getting for being such an asshole, so at least he's making his assholishness work for him.

(new window)

From a strict economic standpoint, we should stop having children, as children are a poor investment (typical return is usually financially negative), and the most efficient way to save money on Medicaid and retirement funds is to exterminate everyone at age 60 (minus the unavoidable landfill/sanitary expenses).

Which is why you should regard most economists as psychopaths.

"Why is this stupid, Subby? My 80 year old parents already have everything they want or need, and I don't really want or need any of the crap they will buy for me."

Consider making a donation to a charity in their name. One year I bought a goat for a family from the Heifer project, and it meant more to my parents than some crappy gift from the mall ever could.

What sort of a person wrings their hands over the possibility that a gift given, will be thought by the recipient to have cost only 80% what it actually did?

What if you got a really great deal on something that you knew your friend really wanted, then what?

Mandatory christmas gift-giving is dumb. I buy something for people and its not really what they want, they do the same for me, we both waste money. We MIGHT feel like it was special that we gave/got gifts, except its scheduled on the calendar and its mandatory enough that you get deemed anti-social for suggesting you want out of the gift-giving consumerism, and merely want to enjoy the day together. Enjoying the time together being something that, at least in my experience, has become a shorter period of time every year. So we all work a few extra days to afford crap nobody wants, and then we are all tired because we meet on xmas day and it replaces a normal weekend day and stacks on top of all the normal shiat we have to do. There will be people who are at our christmas gathering for less than 3 hours due to being such busy folks, but they'll look at me like I'm the scrooge if I suggest we could all have more time off if we didn't buy each other garbage each year.

And so I throw my money away once again.

sycraft: While I fully agree you should just randomly buy stupid gift, I think gift giving is great. In particular, you use it as a time to try and get people things they'd like, but aren't aware of or won't get themselves. It's always great when you can find something that delights a person you care about.

See, I agree with this, but I don't think most gifts fall into that special category of "needs but wouldn't have gotten for themself"

I can't remember getting a gift that fit that description.

What an absolute horrible existence it must be to be a conservative, hating everyone, screaming about every little thing, and being stingy all the time.

Giving gifts is fun.
What price is y'all's happiness?
Billions and billions.
-haiku challenge accepted

TV's Vinnie: What an absolute horrible existence it must be to be a conservative, hating everyone, screaming about every little thing, and being stingy all the time.

Priorities my friend. Presents for Uncle Bob and family, or bottle of Evan Williams and 8 ball for me.

Smackledorfer: Mandatory christmas gift-giving is dumb. I buy something for people and its not really what they want, they do the same for me, we both waste money.

If you're not sure what someone wants, ask them. If they don't tell you, ask what stores/restaurants they frequent. Give gas station gift certificates. Do meal or cookie swaps. Make donations that fall in line with that person's viewpoint and that don't offend you (i.e. if they're religious fundies and you're not, donate to a local food bank). If all else fails, give cash. Regift what you don't like, or donate to a shelter/food bank/whatever.

TV's Vinnie: What an absolute horrible existence it must be to be a conservative, hating everyone, screaming about every little thing, and being stingy all the time.

Sounds like a Boston Democrat or a Unionist to me.

Duck_of_Doom: Smackledorfer: Mandatory christmas gift-giving is dumb. I buy something for people and its not really what they want, they do the same for me, we both waste money.

If you're not sure what someone wants, ask them. If they don't tell you, ask what stores/restaurants they frequent. Give gas station gift certificates. Do meal or cookie swaps. Make donations that fall in line with that person's viewpoint and that don't offend you (i.e. if they're religious fundies and you're not, donate to a local food bank). If all else fails, give cash. Regift what you don't like, or donate to a shelter/food bank/whatever.

Ask them? Thirty years and I've never heard of these brilliant ideas...

Some people don't know what they want, if anything. Also, if two people ask eachother and get the corresponding gifts, how is that different than not buying anything at all?

Smackledorfer: Ask them? Thirty years and I've never heard of these brilliant ideas...

You said that people get things they don't want, so I offered ideas.

Some people don't know what they want, if anything.

This is true. Some people truly don't want anything. Maybe they're better (or worse) financially than you, maybe they are shy about saying, maybe they get more joy out of giving than receiving, maybe they think you should read their mind.

Also, if two people ask eachother and get the corresponding gifts, how is that different than not buying anything at all?

It's hard to explain. The act of gift giving is more than an exchange of material goods. You're fulfilling a social obligation, or showing tact. By getting what they want exactly, it tells them that you cared enough to a) listen to them, and b) fill their request verbatim. That means a lot more than buying them something because it's something you feel they should have (i.e. putting your ego aside).

Maybe the social aspect is why people balk at opting out of the giving. If you went to your family and said "I will not buy anyone anything next year, so don't buy for me", it may make it awkward for the rest. Do they still buy for you? Do they buy for each other, and open in front of you? Do they hide gift-giving so as not to offend you?

Of course your situation may be people one-upping each other. If that's the case, donations in people's honor can be much more satisfying, if only for the subtle jab.

Smackledorfer: Mandatory christmas gift-giving is dumb. I buy something for people and its not really what they want, they do the same for me, we both waste money. We MIGHT feel like it was special that we gave/got gifts, except its scheduled on the calendar and its mandatory enough that you get deemed anti-social for suggesting you want out of the gift-giving consumerism, and merely want to enjoy the day together. Enjoying the time together being something that, at least in my experience, has become a shorter period of time every year. So we all work a few extra days to afford crap nobody wants, and then we are all tired because we meet on xmas day and it replaces a normal weekend day and stacks on top of all the normal shiat we have to do. There will be people who are at our christmas gathering for less than 3 hours due to being such busy folks, but they'll look at me like I'm the scrooge if I suggest we could all have more time off if we didn't buy each other garbage each year.

And so I throw my money away once again.

You should get new friends or something. Or maybe ask what people actually DO want.

I asked for a new winter coat (a nice one from L.L. Bean). If I receive it, I'm going to be very happy, because it means I'll have a nice coat with working zippers and whatnot probably for at least five years. This whole '80% perceived value' is crap; I value being warm while looking basically presentable and not having random things wrong with the garment... also I pretty much gave things my family members will like, based on lists, and also knowing them well enough to pick things out. It's amazing how that works when you take the time to communicate.

When my grandmother was alive, for her last five years I bought her printer ink for Christmas. She had everything else she needed and printed out photos constantly at home. She loved it. My mother this year requested that I start to give her printer ink for Christmas.
I only give gifts to my mom and my brother. My brother is special needs and is "stuck" at seven so he is super easy to buy for because his likes have not changed in twenty years: superhero coloring books, puzzles, Legos, and action figures.

If I was an economist and I believed that the market functions rationally and efficiently, and I had some data that I believed showed that Christmas gift-giving is irrational and inefficient, the first question I would ask myself would be:

"Why is the supposedly irrational and inefficient thing the only thing that makes half of the supposedly rational and efficient economy profitable at the end of the year?"

chestylaruegal: superhero coloring books, puzzles, Legos, and action figures.

Wait, people are supposed to grow out of liking legos and coloring books? Damn.

Simple solution:

Two people are brainwashed into buying something for each other because it's "the season for giving". They agree upon an equal dollar limit for each. They can even physically exchange the equal amounts of cash if it makes them feel better. Then each goes out and buys a gift for themselves. They don't have to spend up to the limit if they don't want to. They can also spend more out of their "own pocket" if they do want to. Both get something they actually want at a price they think is fair. Both can opt to just keep the cash and not buy anything.

In essence, they just SKIP THE BULLSHIAT HOLIDAYS COMPLETELY. Simple.

And to those professing some sort of intangible benefit from giving/receiving surprise gifts, there is absolutely no joy in receiving some sort of off the wall bullshiat that you absolutely do not need or want, and that you just can't wait to get to the garbage as quickly as humanly possible. There is also absolutely no joy in the certain knowledge that whatever useless crap you feel obligated to buy and give will undoubtedly be met with the same response.

And on a final note for those of you who consider yourselves rare gems of humanity for taking the time to figure out what that special someone actually needs/wants in order to provide a truly special gift in this oh so special time of year, if you can't muster the effort to do this kind of thing at any other time of year until Walmart finally shames you into it, then maybe you're not so high and mighty as you may think.

/Bah, Humbug to all
//and to all, a Fark you

I think this cartoon from The Oatmeal (new window) pretty much sums up how I feel about Christmas. Giving gifts to other adults who are on the same economic level as you is just a pointless shuffling of resources. You'd be better off just agreeing to keep your money and spend some time together.

Children, poor and struggling family members, and charities--those are the only people worth giving stuff to. Of course, you probably won't get anything back in return but this IS supposed to be the season of generosity, not the season of "Let's play the elaborate game where we all desperately try to buy presents of the exact same value to give to each other."

The War On Christmas takes another Herp towards Derp from Fox?

We must now play the most elaborate game... Christmas. Most dangerous game is down the hall second door on your left.

I await your brilliant and insightful alternate theory with bated breath.

mr. buzz killington.

bet he tells great stories at parties. about economics. thats the joke.

Read the first four comments, and two of them were trolls. I will definitely be looking back here later today for lulz.

Only thing he forgot in his equation was the post-Christmas orgy of returns and exchanges, which brings the waste amount down a notch, and brings us up one notch on the "stupid consumer whores" scale.

hubiestubert: Why is Fox Business hate Christmas?


They don't and the first two posters obviously didn't RTFA. Basically he said people put an estimated value on crappy gifts of 20% less in value. This equates to wasted money. Rather than taking a stab in the dark and buying some $9.99 crappy tool from Walmart that someone doesn't need (no I'm not talking from experience (I swear)), give the person a gift certificate so they can pick something they want (or supplement the cash into something they were looking to buy).

Oh but it's the thought that counts you say? Well then the thought is 20% less than what you expected to get. Either that or tell people what you want for Xmas

yourmomlovestetris:
Children, poor and struggling family members, and charities--those are the only people worth giving stuff to. Of course, you probably won't get anything back in return but this IS supposed to be the season of generosity, not the season of


Careful that is starting to sound like socialism!!

Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: One year I bought a goat for a family from the Heifer project

I knew some guys in college that would have a Heifer Project aka hogging.

My husband and I don't exchange gifts for financial reasons mostly... it started when we were really poor and now that we're only somewhat poor, it continues.

We buy for the kids though and do a gift exchange at each side of the family where we draw names. I ask for a list from everyone - and my parents ask me for one as well. I try to include all sorts of things - from inexpensive to a bit pricey - but they are all things I'd really like. This year I started an ongoing list earlier in the year to jot them down. Things you don't always think of until you want to use them - a pepper grinder or omelet pan for example.

I'm looking forward to tomorrow. Although I was laid off earlier this year, it's allowed me more time to leisurely shop when I felt like it (say mid morning on wednesday - no crowds) and pick out things I think they'll really like. (I hope my daughter is excited about the electric guitar I got used. She plays acoustic well and has been wanting to branch out. And my son will finally have some music with an mp3/video player thingy so - yay!)

And I'm excited to get things too.

It's going to be great - and so is 2012.