FARK.com: (6836513) I'm not saying it was aliens who created this ten-thousand-year-old obsidian bracelet with micrometer precision...but it was aliens

		I'm not saying it was aliens who created this ten-thousand-year-old obsidian bracelet with micrometer precision...but it was aliens (physorg.com)		94
		More: Interesting, micrometre, Journal of Archaeological Science, CNRS, British Museum, Multi, Neolithic, prehistory, symmetry

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Babwa Wawa

2011-12-22 01:53:22 AM

So yeah, aliens are one explanation. Another is our own lack of investigation. We have shiat-tons of hairy pot-smokers building trebuchets according to specs provided in their own language. We have gobs of 25 year old virgins who can tell us all about blacksmithing in the middle ages.

We have considerably fewer people who can tell us authoritatively about prehistoric metalsmithing.

It is not outside the realm of possibility (probability?) that there was a local prehistoric practical genius that could build (and teach the method of building) the primitive centrifuge necessary to produce a nearly circular object.

Math was big in prehistory. Much of what we consider "modern" didn't require the "shoulders of giants". Newton could have had his revelations in 1680 BCE instead of 1680 ACE. He alone could have derived the foundation of his theories. And even if he couldn't, a couple generations of similar thinkers could easily have come up with that sort of mathematics in aggregate.

The point is that we underestimate our ancestors' intelligence and ingenuity simply because it failed to survive to modernity. That's fine, but to attribute said intelligence and ingenuity to aliens is simple blindness.

SoothinglyDeranged

2011-12-22 02:11:21 AM

somebody didn't get the joke...

Relatively Obscure

2011-12-22 02:36:16 AM

I wish I was that unfamiliar with internet memes.

miltonbabbitt

2011-12-22 02:36:21 AM

Wow. 8000BC. Not bad considering most of the world wasn't even farming yet.

Wolf892

2011-12-22 02:46:21 AM

This is the kinda thing just waiting to be stolen by Carmen Sandiago.
And it's up to us gumshoes to make sure that doesn't happen!

Jame5G

2011-12-22 02:46:22 AM

My God, it's full of stars.

Jagernaut

2011-12-22 02:48:39 AM

Damn, that's impressive.

Xyphoid

2011-12-22 02:50:20 AM

A lot of this "Technology of the ancients" is just... practical applications of simple phenomena. Some guy on youtube ("secret of the pyramids" or something) shows how to move multi-ton boulders without machines using blocks of wood and sand. This could just be some sort of work where the guy rolled it in between two flat pieces of granite... or something. The human mind is very, very clever - I don't know why we believe that only now we are capable of any sort of non-shiatty objects. If you want to find out how to make things with really flat surfaces, go find some mercury ore and melt out the mercury, then float some iron on it. Sure, it sounds complex, but when you're dealing with a huge number of people with a whole lot of time on their hands, just about anything is possible.

lucksi

2011-12-22 02:54:13 AM

I was told by Jesus that the world is only 6000 years old, so this article is lying obviously

Atillathepun

2011-12-22 02:55:58 AM

miltonbabbitt: Wow. 8000BC. Not bad considering ~~most of~~ the world wasn't even ~~farming yet~~ created yet..

CygnusDarius

2011-12-22 02:56:10 AM

Giving the 'it was aliens' explanation is to undermine the capability of people that actually made these things.

Calm Down You Spaz

2011-12-22 02:57:37 AM

Relatively Obscure: I wish I was that unfamiliar with internet memes.

Could you explain it to me then? I know it has something to do with the history channel

miltonbabbitt

2011-12-22 02:58:01 AM

Xyphoid: A lot of this "Technology of the ancients" is just... practical applications of simple phenomena. Some guy on youtube ("secret of the pyramids" or something) shows how to move multi-ton boulders without machines using blocks of wood and sand. This could just be some sort of work where the guy rolled it in between two flat pieces of granite... or something. The human mind is very, very clever - I don't know why we believe that only now we are capable of any sort of non-shiatty objects. If you want to find out how to make things with really flat surfaces, go find some mercury ore and melt out the mercury, then float some iron on it. Sure, it sounds complex, but when you're dealing with a huge number of people with a whole lot of time on their hands, just about anything is possible.

But...but....the mathematical precision...the microscopic finish...made in a time before math, before writing, before farming. It is a bit perplexing.

Sleazy_as_Pie

2011-12-22 03:02:03 AM

FTA: "Using high-tech methods developed by LTDS..."

Good to see those Mormons embracing science for once...

Also, coolface.jpg

studebaker hoch

2011-12-22 03:12:29 AM

I'm not saying it was a fark thread, but it was a fark thread.

GranoblasticMan

2011-12-22 03:18:51 AM

Babwa Wawa basically summed up exactly how I feel every time I hear someone tell me that the accomplishments of our ancestors were impossible because they "didn't have the technology."

You think people were any less creative or ingenuitive 10000 years ago? Very egocentric.

Stibium

2011-12-22 03:24:40 AM

It's not all that mind blowing, well other than the fact is was all done by hand. Give me three pieces of some seasoned cast iron and I can make you three plates flatter than glass using a bit of paste and a hardened piece of steel. Originating precision instruments was clearly an understood phenomena even then.

All we have done since the invention of the boring mill is bootstrap our metallurgical knowledge and ingenuity to make more and more precise machines. It's no different than what they did, we just do it on an industrial scale and with more knowledge of metal.

For an example of originating precision, high precision leadscrews are made many times over on a lathe. Make one, lap it, and put it on the machine to make another. Make it, then lap that one. Put that one in the machine, and so on and so forth. Several turn-of-the-century manufacturers were able to guarantee error under 50 (25 in some cases) millionths of an inch over an entire leadscrew length, which could be feet long in some machines. It's not magical once you understand the secret element is human ingenuity.

Researcher

2011-12-22 03:25:29 AM

Basically just agreeing with the rest of the thread. There's a good show on the Science channel "What the Ancients Knew" or something like that. It's pretty cool, and no mention of aliens.

droosan

2011-12-22 03:27:12 AM

In Search Of... was one of my favorite shows, as a kid. So, I 'get' the popularity of Ancient Aliens. I really do,

But -- as 'out there' as In Search Of... often got -- Leonard Nimoy would begin and end each episode with an admonishment that "we don't have all of the answers. These are just some of the possibilities." (or something to that effect). And at least some of the 'talking heads' on the show were actual respected scientists.

Ancient Aliens, by contrast, seems to be all 'crackpot', all the time. @_@

Mad_Radhu

2011-12-22 03:33:59 AM

miltonbabbitt: But...but....the mathematical precision...the microscopic finish...made in a time before math, before writing, before farming. It is a bit perplexing.

Creating mathematically precise objects doesn't always require modern super-science. For example, you can create a rather large mathematically precise circle with a stake, a rope, and something to draw with.

karl2025

2011-12-22 03:38:04 AM

gopher321

2011-12-22 03:38:59 AM

4 words: Giant. Alien. Cock. Ring.

Relatively Obscure

2011-12-22 03:48:37 AM

Calm Down You Spaz: Relatively Obscure: I wish I was that unfamiliar with internet memes.

Could you explain it to me then? I know it has something to do with the history channel

Here you go, courtesy of the Internets. (new window)

It's pretty stupid, just so you know. But yeah, there it is.

Jim_Callahan

2011-12-22 03:51:37 AM

Yo, subby:

to the nearest degree and nearest hundred micrometers

is not micrometer precision, it's tenth of a millimeter precision, which is not in any way outside the realm of hand tools and eyeball/visible ruler gradation measurement. The nature of obsidian means that the polish finish is well within the realm of possibility if you've a lot of time on your hands, as well.

This is not to say the processes used aren't impressive, they are. But they in no way transcend the technologies available to contemporary civilizations.

Aidan

2011-12-22 03:52:25 AM

gopher321: 4 words: Giant. Alien. Cock. Ring.

Apropos of nothing, I just found a great new unforgettable password.

Zalan

2011-12-22 05:30:40 AM

The only thing I see when I go to the article is a chunk of the bracelet about an inch long and a computer reconstruction of what it might have looked like complete. For all we know the rest of the bracelet was all wonky. It's cool but without the rest, I'm less impressed since we are just assuming what the rest of the bracelet looked like from a small piece.

gopher321: 4 words: Giant. Alien. Cock. Ring.

Since it predates the creation of the earth by 2000 years, maybe it's God's cock ring? I mean, he had to do something before he created the world. (note, I do not believe that the world is 6000 years old)

drake113

2011-12-22 05:33:51 AM

It's been a while since my Archeology days, but I didn't think Obsidian Hydration Dating (which I'm guessing is what they're using to date the artifact) was that all that precise. I seem to remember that it was accurate to within a few thousand years, but not nearly as precise as something like Archaeomagnetic dating.

Larva Lump

2011-12-22 07:15:49 AM

Dunno about ancient precise ring manufacture, but purty damn good sphere makin', aka Mountain Marbles, jes require runnin' water, stones an' patience.

// Jes sayin'.

PC LOAD LETTER

2011-12-22 07:41:47 AM

This is the intersection of lots of free time and OCD.

rocky_howard

2011-12-22 07:52:34 AM

So we can invent iPhones and send a man to the Moon, but the ancients couldn't polish a simple bracelet, so therefore Aliens?

There's no facepalm big enough for me to have.

xanadian

2011-12-22 07:53:36 AM

SoothinglyDeranged: somebody didn't get the joke...

Yeah, but who would want to? I hear it causes a severe skin rash.

fustanella

2011-12-22 08:00:13 AM

Does the material itself lend to such precision, I wonder. If so, then a big 'meh' to the aliens-created-this idea.

I think of the Giants' Causeway in Eire - such magic! No, actually, geological formation that looks created.

SevenizGud

2011-12-22 08:12:00 AM

It's not even close to perfect in ANY sense, and you can tell that with even a cursory observation. Look at the left image, how the ridge is mis-shapen bending to the left near the bottom.

cdn.physorg.com

I could get better precision blindfolded.

Next they'll tell me my GM car's dashboard is the work of superior engineering.

J. Frank Parnell

2011-12-22 08:14:33 AM

Not aliens, just more evidence to support humans being technologically advanced in prehistory.

dittybopper

2011-12-22 08:15:55 AM

miltonbabbitt: But...but....the mathematical precision...the microscopic finish...made in a time before math, before writing, before farming. It is a bit perplexing.

Anyone who has worked with obsidian knows that it *WANTS* to be that way. It breaks in a way called a 'conchoidal fracture'. Mostly it doesn't because of stress fractures within the rock, and imprecise working, but every so often even a novice will flake off that perfect flake.

Even someone who had just learned how to knap flint/obsidian/etc. can make a tool with edges sharper than is possible with the best steel.

My guess is that it was a happy concurrence of a relatively stress free piece of obsidian, a skilled knapper, and a lucky hit.

Oh, and that 'reconstruction': It's bullshiat.

LewDux

2011-12-22 08:25:36 AM

J. Frank Parnell: Not aliens, just more evidence to support humans being technologically advanced in prehistory.

I'm not saying it's Ancients of Mu Mu, but it's Ancients of Mu Mu

Babwa Wawa

2011-12-22 08:33:15 AM

karl2025: Not saying that you're wrong about the abilities of our precursors, but this isn't metalworking. It's obsidian. Having a centrifuge would not be useful in creating a perfectly circular bracelet out of obsidian.

Dammit, you're right - good point. It's still a big leap to say it's aliens.

It's far more likely that they developed techniques and technologies that are lost to us. There is SO much we don't know about prehistoric humans.

Occam's razor, right?

J. Frank Parnell

2011-12-22 08:41:16 AM

dittybopper: Anyone who has worked with obsidian knows that it *WANTS* to be that way. It breaks in a way called a 'conchoidal fracture'.

A lucky conchoidal fracture only explains the edges of the item, before the reconstruction. And to have the same luck on both sides is pretty unlikely, but remotely possible.

Like someone else mentioned, although sarcastically, if you take this item along with the plethora of other pieces of evidence supporting advanced civilizations in prehistory, occams razor suggests there's something to it, because it's simpler than having to accept a new unlikely thing to explain each one away individually.

Smidge204

2011-12-22 08:41:27 AM

LewDux: I'm not saying it's Ancients of Mu Mu, but it's Ancients of Mu Mu

www.game-ost.com

Babwa Wawa

2011-12-22 08:44:49 AM

YixilTesiphon

2011-12-22 08:48:11 AM

Obsidian often takes the form of "bodies of rotation" (quasi-spheres, dumbbells, etc) and can be incredibly smooth. Maybe the person just found a really nice piece of obsidian to make the crafts out of.

advex101

2011-12-22 08:51:11 AM

Who knew that the metric system was that old?

//the real question is were their instruments calibrated and traceable? Had Ogg the caveman done sufficient R&R studies?

exparrot

2011-12-22 08:52:38 AM

Smidge204: LewDux: I'm not saying it's Ancients of Mu Mu, but it's Ancients of Mu Mu

So you're saying it's the K, the L, the F, and the ology?

/basic, basic, elemental.

RminusQ

2011-12-22 08:56:52 AM

LewDux: J. Frank Parnell: Not aliens, just more evidence to support humans being technologically advanced in prehistory.

I'm not saying it's Ancients of Mu Mu, but it's Ancients of Mu Mu

I prefer the ancients of snu-snu.

Gordon Bennett

2011-12-22 09:06:21 AM

Zalan: The only thing I see when I go to the article is a chunk of the bracelet about an inch long and a computer reconstruction of what it might have looked like complete. For all we know the rest of the bracelet was all wonky. It's cool but without the rest, I'm less impressed since we are just assuming what the rest of the bracelet looked like from a small piece.

gopher321: 4 words: Giant. Alien. Cock. Ring.

Since it predates the creation of the earth by 2000 years, maybe it's God's cock ring? I mean, he had to do something before he created the world. (note, I do not believe that the world is 6000 years old)

kunochan.com

What does God need with a cock ring?

dittybopper

2011-12-22 09:08:23 AM

J. Frank Parnell: A lucky conchoidal fracture only explains the edges of the item, before the reconstruction.

The reconstruction itself is bullshiat. The only way to get something like that from a piece of glass (which is what obsidian is: Volcanic glass) is to mold it that way, or to use some other technique like glass-blowing.

They are assuming that that piece of obsidian is a fragment from a much larger piece, and having actually worked with obsidian myself, I'm saying that they have their heads up their asses. Obsidian just won't work like that, but I can easily see how that single 'fragment' could have been made.

pjbreeze

2011-12-22 09:15:32 AM

I think this article proves that aliens came to the Earth and gave us the technology to build street lights.

bhcompy

2011-12-22 09:30:59 AM

GranoblasticMan: Babwa Wawa basically summed up exactly how I feel every time I hear someone tell me that the accomplishments of our ancestors were impossible because they "didn't have the technology."

You think people were any less creative or ingenuitive 10000 years ago? Very egocentric.

Even recent ancestors. We're scared to death of sending another man to the moon because it's so goddamned dangerous. Yet, we sent a bunch of men to the moon in what amounts to a tin can sealed with ducttape and a 2mhz computer to provide guidance. There is no reason to suspect that humanity was any less ingenious back then, but one also must factor in slave labor as well in order to accomplish what ingenious humans come up with. The pyramids may be marvels of engineering, but without slave labor do they get built?

Slaves2Darkness

2011-12-22 09:32:26 AM

Babwa Wawa: So yeah, aliens are one explanation. Another is our own lack of investigation. We have shiat-tons of hairy pot-smokers building trebuchets according to specs provided in their own language. We have gobs of 25 year old virgins who can tell us all about blacksmithing in the middle ages.

We have considerably fewer people who can tell us authoritatively about prehistoric metalsmithing.

It is not outside the realm of possibility (probability?) that there was a local prehistoric practical genius that could build (and teach the method of building) the primitive centrifuge necessary to produce a nearly circular object.

Math was big in prehistory. Much of what we consider "modern" didn't require the "shoulders of giants". Newton could have had his revelations in 1680 BCE instead of 1680 ACE. He alone could have derived the foundation of his theories. And even if he couldn't, a couple generations of similar thinkers could easily have come up with that sort of mathematics in aggregate.

The point is that we underestimate our ancestors' intelligence and ingenuity simply because it failed to survive to modernity. That's fine, but to attribute said intelligence and ingenuity to aliens is simple blindness.

If only ancient man had some means to record and mass producing his ideas for easy dissemination. Man's greatest invention is the printing press, because it allowed man to distribute his knowledge and science far and wide.

Slaves2Darkness

2011-12-22 09:34:58 AM

bhcompy: GranoblasticMan: Babwa Wawa basically summed up exactly how I feel every time I hear someone tell me that the accomplishments of our ancestors were impossible because they "didn't have the technology."

You think people were any less creative or ingenuitive 10000 years ago? Very egocentric.

Even recent ancestors. We're scared to death of sending another man to the moon because it's so goddamned dangerous. Yet, we sent a bunch of men to the moon in what amounts to a tin can sealed with ducttape and a 2mhz computer to provide guidance. There is no reason to suspect that humanity was any less ingenious back then, but one also must factor in slave labor as well in order to accomplish what ingenious humans come up with. The pyramids may be marvels of engineering, but without slave labor do they get built?

Umm...you might want to check that. Leading theories are that the pyramids were not built by slaves, but as giant jobs programs for free men.

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