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(Huffington Post)   A Girl Scouts troop's decision to admit a 7-year-old transgender child this fall has prompted three leaders to resign and dissolve their troops. Guess they'll all forfeit their tolerance badges   (huffingtonpost.com ) divider line 560
    More: Stupid, troops, The Christian Post, prompt corner, inclusion  
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10427 clicks; posted to Main » on 22 Dec 2011 at 6:02 AM (4 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2011-12-22 04:19:20 PM  
JonnyBGoode: Twenty years ago, people would be taking the child away and slapping the mother.

No they wouldn't.

Contrabulous Flabtraption: Bullshiat.

Sorry to tell you, I knew then.
 
2011-12-22 04:22:28 PM  

Theaetetus: Peekachicka: Taking your 7 year old to Pennys to get new clothes and filling out the paper work to change their name is not understanding, its insane!

The mother in this story hasn't done any such paperwork, so I'm not sure where you're pulling that from.
And for the other - giving your child your shoes is "understanding", but buying the child their own shoes is "insane"?


THIS mother hasnt changed her childs name yes, google "7 year old transgender" and see how many parents actually have done the whole shabang! I also dont know if she took her child to Pennys, she could have taken him to Bon Ton.

That paragraph was a condensed story. Since I did not go into details about the blog and went straight into the "keep em" part I thought there would be a general understanding that there was a civilized conversation about the situation and it came to an accepting conclusion...i was wrong.
 
2011-12-22 04:24:33 PM  

WhyteRaven74: JonnyBGoode: Twenty years ago, people would be taking the child away and slapping the mother.

No they wouldn't.

Contrabulous Flabtraption: Bullshiat.

Sorry to tell you, I knew then.


I think you're lying - even though you might believe (or have convinced yourself) you aren't.
 
2011-12-22 04:28:09 PM  
Peekachicka: about a boy dressed as a girl

Interestingly that's very much tied to time and place. It's not an absolute. Even now, where you are has a lot to do with it. Right now I could walk a few blocks from my place and see plenty of transgender teenagers and around here no one pays them any mind, no matter how they're dressed or how awkwardly they put on their makeup. It's why they hang around this neighborhood. Men in drag, transgendered teens, whatever, no one bats an eyelash. And the lack of caring is spreading. I've lost count of how many times I've gone downtown here in Chicago and seen a man in drag or someone who's transgendered. Well save for the tourists who would turn their heads, but the locals? Don't even notice. People only care about such things because for some reason they choose to care. And how many care depends on where you are. Oh and as for the teens who come hang around my neighborhood, some go to school wearing the same clothes they wear around here. I've seen a good number walking around with their backpacks because they have come over right after school.
 
2011-12-22 04:36:00 PM  

WhyteRaven74: Peekachicka: about a boy dressed as a girl

Interestingly that's very much tied to time and place. It's not an absolute. Even now, where you are has a lot to do with it. Right now I could walk a few blocks from my place and see plenty of transgender teenagers and around here no one pays them any mind, no matter how they're dressed or how awkwardly they put on their makeup. It's why they hang around this neighborhood. Men in drag, transgendered teens, whatever, no one bats an eyelash. And the lack of caring is spreading. I've lost count of how many times I've gone downtown here in Chicago and seen a man in drag or someone who's transgendered. Well save for the tourists who would turn their heads, but the locals? Don't even notice. People only care about such things because for some reason they choose to care. And how many care depends on where you are. Oh and as for the teens who come hang around my neighborhood, some go to school wearing the same clothes they wear around here. I've seen a good number walking around with their backpacks because they have come over right after school.


WhyteRaven74: Peekachicka: about a boy dressed as a girl

Interestingly that's very much tied to time and place. It's not an absolute. Even now, where you are has a lot to do with it. Right now I could walk a few blocks from my place and see plenty of transgender teenagers and around here no one pays them any mind, no matter how they're dressed or how awkwardly they put on their makeup. It's why they hang around this neighborhood. Men in drag, transgendered teens, whatever, no one bats an eyelash. And the lack of caring is spreading. I've lost count of how many times I've gone downtown here in Chicago and seen a man in drag or someone who's transgendered. Well save for the tourists who would turn their heads, but the locals? Don't even notice. People only care about such things because for some reason they choose to care. And how many care depends on where you are. Oh and as for the teens who come hang around my neighborhood, some go to school wearing the same clothes they wear around here. I've seen a good number walking around with their backpacks because they have come over right after school.


Shockingly, SF and Berkeley are like this too.
 
2011-12-22 04:36:25 PM  
Wow...I couldn't even manage to read all this. And to those who responded to me about the genes comment - notice I said sometimes. Sometimes it's as "cut and dry" as a gene mutation (mutation? I hate that word in regards to this- gene...creativity?), and many times it's not. I'm also amazed at how many people don't even understand the difference between transgender and gay yet they can go ahead and spout bullshiat about knowing absolutely at what age a kid knows gender identity. Kids understand the difference in sexes very early in life, thus games like 'doctor' and such which have no sexual note to them at all, but pure curiosity of what's different. Many transgender kids may just feel "wrong" somehow, like something is off - but not understand exactly what that is. This child has a loving mother who not only recognized it but is allowing him/her to explore those feelings. And I doubt any of the other girls in the troop give a shiat or would have even noticed if not for the parents.
 
2011-12-22 04:38:48 PM  
sorry about the double quote
 
2011-12-22 04:39:33 PM  

WhyteRaven74: Peekachicka: about a boy dressed as a girl

Interestingly that's very much tied to time and place. It's not an absolute. Even now, where you are has a lot to do with it. Right now I could walk a few blocks from my place and see plenty of transgender teenagers and around here no one pays them any mind, no matter how they're dressed or how awkwardly they put on their makeup. It's why they hang around this neighborhood. Men in drag, transgendered teens, whatever, no one bats an eyelash. And the lack of caring is spreading. I've lost count of how many times I've gone downtown here in Chicago and seen a man in drag or someone who's transgendered. Well save for the tourists who would turn their heads, but the locals? Don't even notice. People only care about such things because for some reason they choose to care. And how many care depends on where you are. Oh and as for the teens who come hang around my neighborhood, some go to school wearing the same clothes they wear around here. I've seen a good number walking around with their backpacks because they have come over right after school.


Thats great! Good for Chicago! Here in Pittsburgh, not happening lol. There are lots of people who purposely avoid Liberty Ave because "thats where the gay clubs are." Its really pathetic. People chose to settle here because the three rivers protected them from the outside world and that seems to be the general idea still. Since moving out to the rural area its even worse. Just being bi-racial is an abomination. I really hope my son never tells me he is a girl or that he is gay. He'd be killed out here for sure and Pittsburgh Public schools are some of the worse schools in the North East. I guess we'd be moving to Chicago lol.
 
2011-12-22 04:46:36 PM  

Peekachicka: Thats great! Good for Chicago! Here in Pittsburgh, not happening lol. There are lots of people who purposely avoid Liberty Ave because "thats where the gay clubs are." Its really pathetic. People chose to settle here because the three rivers protected them from the outside world and that seems to be the general idea still. Since moving out to the rural area its even worse. Just being bi-racial is an abomination. I really hope my son never tells me he is a girl or that he is gay. He'd be killed out here for sure and Pittsburgh Public schools are some of the worse schools in the North East. I guess we'd be moving to Chicago lol.


You could move to NYC - they even have a school here that high school kids can choose to transfer to that's for (but not limited to) GLBT kids if they're having too rough a time in school. Hell, the school has something like a 90% graduation rate, far above average for NYC schools.
 
2011-12-22 04:51:27 PM  
Peekachicka: , not happening lol.

Not today, but maybe tomorrow. If you had told someone 30 years ago Atlanta would have one of the largest gay pride parades in America they'd have sent you to the loony bin. People and places change.
 
2011-12-22 04:55:08 PM  

WhyteRaven74: Peekachicka: , not happening lol.

Not today, but maybe tomorrow. If you had told someone 30 years ago Atlanta would have one of the largest gay pride parades in America they'd have sent you to the loony bin. People and places change.


Oddly the progressives want change towards inclusion and the conservatives want to conserve current exclusion.
 
2011-12-22 04:59:57 PM  
Peekachicka: Here in Pittsburgh,

Pittsburgh being the way it is was actually part of why the American version of Queer as Folk was set there. Though the show was actually filmed in Canada.
 
2011-12-22 05:00:25 PM  

Theaetetus: LiquidSky: It's not inconceivable, given that we all carry the genetic instructions for both masculine and feminine development--otherwise every zygote would get 1/2 of the instructions on how to be a boy from Dad and 1/2 of the instructions on how to be a girl from Mom.

WTF? Did you somehow skip primary school genetics? Human males are XY. Females are XX. Does that ring any bells?

Same thing. Early on, you were taught that human males are XY and females are XX. Apparently, you never got the more advanced stuff which says, no, there can be XXY, XXX, XYY, XXYY, as well as XY females and XX males. In fact, due to mutations, genes on other chromosomes can activate sexual development, too. Isn't science amazing?


I actually have a degree in molecular genetics. XXY or XO mutations doesn't change the basic science that the default apparant gender is female and apparant males have a Y chromosome (or the specific SRY gene) - note that I did specifically mention XX-SRY mutations which is effectively the same as a full XXY mutation, and vaguely mentioned other developmental problems that can occur.

None of that changes the fact that the OP clearly said: "It's not inconceivable, given that we all carry the genetic instructions for both masculine and feminine development--otherwise every zygote would get 1/2 of the instructions on how to be a boy from Dad and 1/2 of the instructions on how to be a girl from Mom". That is what I was arguing against - that statement is in no way true. It is simply flat out wrong! You simply do not carry "all the genetic instructions for both male and female development" ... explaining the basic version of the XX vx XY difference is enough to prove that idea completely wrong. There is/was no need to get more complicated & go into mutations or lack of phenotypic expression: the basic primary school explanation is detailed enough to disprove the OPs wacky idea.

If someone said there are only 2 colours: black and white, all you need to do to prove them wrong is give a basic proof/example of another colour ... you don't have to define the freakin' colour wheel. Same idea ... the basic XX/XY science is enough to disprove the idea that normal females carry the instructions for masculine development - no need to complicate things with various mutations.
 
2011-12-22 05:11:55 PM  

Silvara: I don't think puberty is required for sexual identity. There are plenty of transgender people out there who will tell you they identified as such long before puberty. Sometimes it very specifically comes down to genes.


The winner is you.
 
2011-12-22 05:14:44 PM  

Silvara: Also, those troop leaders aren't even in the same goddamn state. fark em, let them leave.


THIS.
 
2011-12-22 05:18:47 PM  

give me doughnuts: Correction: Just girls. The BSA is already intolerant enough.


National Council and Mormon units, maybe. But, National's got another thing coming if they honestly think most local councils or more than a marginal number of individual troops/packs/posts/ships are on board with that or even give a shiat.
 
2011-12-22 05:33:30 PM  
But no one would know he's a boy unless they pulled his pants down."

From the stories MrsWambu tells of her Girl Scout camping experiences, this is a likely event.
 
2011-12-22 05:34:48 PM  

HoneyDog: I love the one article the person linked to about the identical twins, one of whom identified as being female. The description of the one who remained male...."he was all boy, liked Spiderman, action figures....." So what type of toys you like defines your gender? I always hated dolls and girl type toys. I was always playing with trucks and boy toys. I always liked sports, caught a lot of crap 30 some years ago for pushing to get girls athletic teams. Hell, I joined the military long before it was common for women to do so. According to what some of you are saying, that makes me male. Not a chance! I prefer being the superior gender.


Reminds me of some of the women back on the rez.
 
2011-12-22 05:39:02 PM  

technicolor-misfit: Hair Salad: Sounds to me like Mommy wanted a girl.


I hope your parents wanted a retard.


4.bp.blogspot.com
 
2011-12-22 05:41:31 PM  

I Hope Your Plane Crashes Twice: Plenty of other clubs that can be joined without controversy. Why pick the hardest (giggity)?


They didn't. I mean, we're not talking about a Mormon-sponsored Boy Scout troop in Salt Lake City.
 
2011-12-22 05:42:41 PM  

o5iiawah: Thats fine, the GSA can do whatever they want in this instance.

but my GIRL SCOUT wont be sharing tents, bathrooms or activities with a girlwithboyparts scout.


I'm surprised you can post from all the way back in the 1950s.
 
2011-12-22 05:47:27 PM  

BraveNewCheneyWorld: A bulldyke would be accepted to girl scouts, because it has a vagina.


They're more likely to join an Explorer post the moment they turn 16, strangely enough.
 
2011-12-22 05:56:54 PM  

Plant Rights Activist: Only 3 leaders ragequit? I'd imagine the boy scouts would implode if anyone tried something like this.


Only in Utah.
 
2011-12-22 06:00:29 PM  

Silvara: This child has a loving mother who not only recognized it but is allowing him/her to explore those feelings

on CNN for a national tv audience

The fact that she put/paraded her kid on TV makes her lose a lot of credibility to me as a parent.
 
2011-12-22 06:01:35 PM  

PsiChick: Sometimes the wrong brain gets stuck in the body.


Forgive my inner pendant again: Right brain, discrepancy between brain and dangly bits, near-fanatically inflexible and willfully ignorant society that's been defiantly wrong on every human rights issue since... ever.

/ I find it very telling that so many in this thread obsessively prioritize the pecker over the brain.
 
2011-12-22 06:08:52 PM  

MooseUpNorth: I find it very telling that so many in this thread obsessively prioritize the pecker over the brain.


The body does have relevance in some circumstances - for example, if this child is 6'4" and 220 lbs and wants to play center for the freshman girls high school basketball team there is a safety issue for the other children that have the body of girls.
 
2011-12-22 06:10:17 PM  

keylock71: We try to squeeze kids into these narrowly defined gender roles and it's so ridiculous when you stop and think about it.


IF they stop and think about it. My experience is that most people don't most of the time. Which explains a lot.

ThrobblefootSpectre: So this made me wonder


Have fun with your thought experiments, but remember that real life doesn't work like computer programming.

Peekachicka: Im all for tolerance of gender and sexual preference but this is not good. A child this age is certainly not mature enough to decide that they want to be another gender. Children change their minds like their socks, daily. Most children this age still refuse to eat their vegetables because they smell "funny."

I understand this is not my child, but any parent that wouldnt say to their child "lets wait another few years and see if you still feel this way" and instead buys them different clothes, and changes their hair is much more immature than their child. I honestly wonder what sort of conversation this mother had with her child that the child actually proposed a good enough argument for their decision that made her think "well i can't argue against that!"

This child's mother should undergo psychological evaluation to determine if she should be allowed to hold custody of her child. Tolerance or not, this child is just way too young to understand the rough road of life ahead being "different."


"What a distressing contrast there is between the radiant intelligence of the child and the feeble mentality of the average adult." - Sigmund Freud

It might not occur to most people, but the better part of the experience of 'mature' people coming to terms with their own reality is the undoing of the years of brainwashing they've gotten from growing up in whatever society they did. Anyway, this kid didn't decide she was transgender, she only asserted her own gender identity -- which is a right we all have, at every age.

Theaetetus: Should we return to the age when all children below a certain age, regardless of gender, wore dresses and had their hair long?


What? Would that be some kind of irreversible disaster in your mind? What difference does it make? It sounds to me like you're trying very hard to enforce the same constructed social gender 'norms' that got us all into this mess in the first place. Just let kids be whatever they want, and stop worrying about it.

doubled99: I'm guess WhyteRaven74's comment is going to be met with a chorus of *crickets* from folks who just know a 7 year old is too young to think this way...



Yep. One individual's personal experiences trump all others' arguments


I knew by 9. Are we voting on this? Cuz I'll need to make some phone calls, if we're deciding on reality by a simple vote of anonymous people online.

Pechorin: At the age of 7 I knew I was really an elephant. Therefore, I am an elephant.


You misspelled "loser".

WhyteRaven74: Interestingly that's very much tied to time and place.


I'm glad someone else made this point, in more and better words than I'm feeling up to right now.
 
2011-12-22 06:16:23 PM  
Shouldn't a parent be open to the fact that the 7 year old may be mistaken? Rather than demand that everyone treat the child as a girl and throw the child in front of tv cameras, I think the parent should be a little less militant than involving a 7 year old child in a media circus.

Later, when the child nears an age where it is better able to participate in decisions, then be as militant as you and the young teen/young adult mutually agree upon. At 7? No freaking way.
 
2011-12-22 06:20:11 PM  

rinasaunce: Shouldn't a parent be open to the fact that the 7 year old may be mistaken?


You mean the same way you're open to the fact that the 7 year old might be right? Sure. I'd say that would be a fair expectation.
 
2011-12-22 06:31:34 PM  

MooseUpNorth: rinasaunce: Shouldn't a parent be open to the fact that the 7 year old may be mistaken?

You mean the same way you're open to the fact that the 7 year old might be right? Sure. I'd say that would be a fair expectation.


Exactly. So this parent seems to be so certain of the gender identity of a 7 year old that she has encouraged and participated in a media circus and involved her child in such circus.

Which makes me kinda sad.
 
2011-12-22 06:32:51 PM  

SevenizGud: Baryogenesis:

Your intelligent and well thought out post astounds me. Transgender == different species. Simply amazing!

It's the GIRL scouts. The person was not a girl, douchenozzle. So if you folks are going to allow people who are not girls into the GIRL scouts


There was a boy in my Girl Scout troop. 20 years ago, no one cared. His sister was in the troop, and his mom was one of the troop leaders. I think he got to sell cookies one year, and I vaguely recall that he went to camp with us.

Face it, the GSA is pretty tolerant and easy going. Local troop wants to do something a little different, normally not a problem. It takes uptight idjits a thousand miles away to complain, "take a stand", and ruin things for their own kids. But if that's what they want, hell, I won't miss them.
 
2011-12-22 06:35:47 PM  
I'm... just plain not touching this issue with a ten foot pole. I tried to learn in one of these threads. Asked some questions, ended up "the bigot." So hell with it. No comment.
 
2011-12-22 06:54:17 PM  

Sylvia_Bandersnatch: doubled99: I'm guess WhyteRaven74's comment is going to be met with a chorus of *crickets* from folks who just know a 7 year old is too young to think this way...



Yep. One individual's personal experiences trump all others' arguments

I knew by 9. Are we voting on this? Cuz I'll need to make some phone calls, if we're deciding on reality by a simple vote of anonymous people online.


Looking back, I knew by 5, but I didn't have the words to express it.

It must be a hard thing, knowing at that age, then being forced to pretend for decades until finally hearing the word 'transgender' and having an ah-ha! moment.
 
2011-12-22 07:06:34 PM  

TheOmni: Gig103: Can a 7 year old be a transgender, if they haven't been through puberty and thus do not have a sexual identity?

FTFA: "I believe he was born in the wrong body,"

Oh, YOU believe? That's okay then, it isn't possible your son is a little effeminate, likes dolls and/or might be gay, he must be transgender. This is a stupid situation to put the GSA in .

Short answer, yes. Check out this article. It's a pretty positive article about identical twin boys that turned out to be a brother and sister,and it lets you know exactly how early this realization can occur.

And I'm assuming the mother knows her daughter somewhat better than us folks reading about it on the internet.


Seriously, READ THIS ARTICLE. It will make you weep, and smile, and maybe feel a little better about this screwed up world we live in. Sincerely, thank you for sharing this.
 
2011-12-22 07:38:54 PM  

Mock26: MannaxOne: Got nuts... go to the boy scouts.
Got no nuts... Go to the girl scouts.

Quit using your children to push your social/political agenda.

And what if the child has both nuts and a coont? What then, of great fountain of wisdom?

(Yeah, yeah, know the child in question is not a hermaphrodite, but just wondering what you have to say on this.)


why then you kill the mutant, pay attention
 
2011-12-22 07:42:13 PM  
"Golly, everybody... Look how farking stupid I am! Aren't I clever?"

Golly, you like being an arse don't you. Here I was trying to calmly discuss something.
 
2011-12-22 07:50:23 PM  

Gig103: Can a 7 year old be a transgender, if they haven't been through puberty and thus do not have a sexual identity?

FTFA: "I believe he was born in the wrong body,"

Oh, YOU believe? That's okay then, it isn't possible your son is a little effeminate, likes dolls and/or might be gay, he must be transgender. This is a stupid situation to put the GSA in .


Done in one.
 
2011-12-22 07:52:20 PM  
I believe her point is that at age 7, children are remarkably malleable towards echoing their parents' wishes. In her case, because of her outwardly male social orientation, had her parents decided she was transgendered, she likely would have gone along with it -- despite her not actually being transgendered; merely tomboyish.

Thank you!

I have a transgender child. I have no problem with it. I do question a child knowing this already at the age of 7. Especially after the mom saying she always thought he was born in the wrong body. I'm wondering the kid really is, or if he's being pushed pretend he's a girl to satisfy mommy.
 
2011-12-22 07:52:39 PM  

ykarie: Sylvia_Bandersnatch: doubled99: I'm guess WhyteRaven74's comment is going to be met with a chorus of *crickets* from folks who just know a 7 year old is too young to think this way...



Yep. One individual's personal experiences trump all others' arguments

I knew by 9. Are we voting on this? Cuz I'll need to make some phone calls, if we're deciding on reality by a simple vote of anonymous people online.

Looking back, I knew by 5, but I didn't have the words to express it.

It must be a hard thing, knowing at that age, then being forced to pretend for decades until finally hearing the word 'transgender' and having an ah-ha! moment.


Yeah, that's pretty much exactly how it was, and I think that may be fairly common. It would be interesting to collect a lot of stories and compare them. I remember that I definitely knew by 9, but logically, I had to have had some inkling before that. It certainly didn't all come together in one lazy summer afternoon, but was a gradual realisation over time, like so many other things.

Whenever people point out how 'few' people dare to speak out, as if that was some kind of evidence of how few concerned people there are, I always want to ask how many Confederate slaves spoke out about slavery.
 
2011-12-22 08:03:33 PM  

Loreweaver: lohphat:
Whatever appended to teaching kids to be good people first notepad of tribal tools?

Did you... have a stroke right there?
Might want to get that looked at.

/Sorry, couldn't resist


Frikkin autocorrect.
 
2011-12-22 08:41:05 PM  

Sylvia_Bandersnatch: This is the common but mistaken conflation of gender identity and gender-defined sexual orientation.
...
(and a lot of other good stuff in the post)




This post was much too knowledgeable, well written, POLITE - Are you sure you posted on the correct web site?

/Thanks for the post by the way. Well said. Well thought out!
 
2011-12-22 09:06:27 PM  
Good point.

There is no such thing as a "transgendered person."

It's just some psuedo-science made by some (Jewish) psychologist.

Millions of years of vvolution says there are males and females.

Why are liberals so intolerant of people who believe in science and evolution?
 
2011-12-22 09:40:22 PM  

Genevieve Marie: No one's suggesting anyone have surgery as a kid, but they should be able to dress and present as whatever gender they identify with.


Honestly, kids should be able to dress up for the lulz of that's what they want to do and know they'll have to deal with some teasing, but not too much if they fit in in other ways. Crossdressing won't make a kid gay, it's not the start of a disorder, like wearing a suit and tie won't make him straight. There are also plenty of boys who would appreciate girl scouts more than boy scouts, and vice versa. The girl scouts in general is already a ridiculously tolerant agency, especially compared to the BSA, so I picture it becoming more integrated over the years even if the name doesn't change.
 
2011-12-22 10:32:49 PM  

fark80: Good point.

There is no such thing as a "transgendered person."

It's just some psuedo-science made by some (Jewish) psychologist.

Millions of years of vvolution says there are males and females.

Why are liberals so intolerant of people who believe in science and evolution?


We don't necessarily agree that all living things have evolved.
 
2011-12-22 10:44:12 PM  
Personally I'd have no problem with a 7 year old boy who identifies as a girl in the Girl Scouts so long as the Girl Scouts didn't engage in any activities that might expose a daughter in a way that's not proper to have a male witness. (I have no idea what Girl Scouts do honestly.)

My problem is this line: The controversy began when Felisha Archuleta protested against a Denver troop's decision to not initially allow her transgender daughter, Bobby Montoya, to join the group. "I believe he was born in the wrong body,"

What do you mean you believe? You're his parent ffs. You're not supposed to believe anything. You're supposed to offer support, mentor, and ensure the child doesn't do anything harmful to himself or others. Not guide him or influence him into these choices, choices he is supposed to make for himself when he's mature enough to do so. This line makes it seem like this woman has been manipulating a child into this behavior due to some deranged mental issue she suffers from to me.
 
2011-12-22 10:44:25 PM  
I'd just like to ask the question - what if it is the mother?

Take aside the rest of the debate for a minute, lets accept (for the sake of this argument) that it's perfectly possible for children to be fully aware transgendered individuals at 7 years old.

What if that's not the case?
Can we not also investigate the idea that mommy does suffer from Munchausen's by proxy?
Or that Mommy really did just want a little girl and the boy is being forced to live that way?

Why is discussion of these possibilities (very rare) alongside the possibility of genuine gender dysphoria (also rare) offensive to some?
Surely it's just as offensive to force a non-dysphoric individual into a trans role?
 
2011-12-22 11:48:06 PM  

Gothnet: I'd just like to ask the question - what if it is the mother?

Take aside the rest of the debate for a minute, lets accept (for the sake of this argument) that it's perfectly possible for children to be fully aware transgendered individuals at 7 years old.

What if that's not the case?
Can we not also investigate the idea that mommy does suffer from Munchausen's by proxy?
Or that Mommy really did just want a little girl and the boy is being forced to live that way?

Why is discussion of these possibilities (very rare) alongside the possibility of genuine gender dysphoria (also rare) offensive to some?
Surely it's just as offensive to force a non-dysphoric individual into a trans role?


No, we really cannot investigate that, because we are in no position to. Yes, of course it's possible. It's also possible that HuffPo et al are pulling our leg, and that none of this actually happened. It's possible that the child is insane. Or the mother. A great many things are possible that are not mentioned in TFA, but that and related stories are all we have to go on. To the extent that we care to discuss anything at all, we're limited to accepting, at some point, things that we cannot investigate or verify. Alternatively, we could speculate every single thing that appears on Fark into epistemological fog. It's certainly been done enough times on here before, and metadisco seems very popular, where direct discussion flags.

So, yes, anything you might speculate is possible. But so what? Is it really necessary to go that route, just because this story is so unusual? Must we thoroughly vet the principals in absentia, only because the topic is sensitive? Because I'm really not up for a gratuitous witch hunt, if that's all right with you, just for the sake of it. Let's just assume, for now, that the facts are complete and accurate as provided in TFA. Elsewise, there's nothing to prevent the thread from careening off into pure speculation about absolutely anything and everything (more than it has already).

I'll tell you one thing that's notably rare, for sure: Any public discussion around transgender issues that doesn't involve suspicions or allegations of mental problems on the part of those asserting it about themselves or someone close to them. I personally feel like I've had enough of that. But knock yourself out if you want; it's a free country.
 
2011-12-23 12:24:56 AM  
There was no transgender child. There was a little boy whose parents raised him as a girl. I would not have let him into the girl scouts. Nothing wrong with the boy and if he wants to live life as a girl when he is older well that is his choice and it wouldn't bother me.

Still, he is NOT transgendered.
 
2011-12-23 01:20:36 AM  

Terrible Old Man: Personally I'd have no problem with a 7 year old boy who identifies as a girl in the Girl Scouts so long as the Girl Scouts didn't engage in any activities that might expose a daughter in a way that's not proper to have a male witness. (I have no idea what Girl Scouts do honestly.)

My problem is this line: The controversy began when Felisha Archuleta protested against a Denver troop's decision to not initially allow her transgender daughter, Bobby Montoya, to join the group. "I believe he was born in the wrong body,"

What do you mean you believe? You're his parent ffs. You're not supposed to believe anything. You're supposed to offer support, mentor, and ensure the child doesn't do anything harmful to himself or others. Not guide him or influence him into these choices, choices he is supposed to make for himself when he's mature enough to do so. This line makes it seem like this woman has been manipulating a child into this behavior due to some deranged mental issue she suffers from to me.



It doesn't make it seem like anything of the sort. A statement of support does not indicate a statement of control.

"I believe the dog ate my son's homework" doesn't suggest that the parent concocted the notion that the dog ate their child's homework... For all we know the mother has wrestled with this and took many years and much conflict with her child to come to grips with it... and has now reached the point where she is advocating for her child to people who are as skeptical as she was.

I believe all you people who keep seeing this as some sort of smoking gun that the mother is driving the whole thing are simply allowing your own biases to color your interpretation.
 
2011-12-23 02:35:07 AM  

Sylvia_Bandersnatch: No, we really cannot investigate that, because we are in no position to.


We are in a position to investigate the ideas, that's called a discussion.

Sylvia_Bandersnatch: Elsewise, there's nothing to prevent the thread from careening off into pure speculation about absolutely anything and everything (more than it has already).


I thought that was the point of fark?

Seriously, half of your post there seems just to say "well we could discuss what we think, but what would be the point in that?"


Sylvia_Bandersnatch: Any public discussion around transgender issues that doesn't involve suspicions or allegations of mental problems on the part of those asserting it about themselves or someone close to them. I


Can you really blame people for that when a mother is claiming it for her seven year old? As many have pointed out, seven year olds don't know anything, it's perfectly reasonable to raise suspicions about the mother at this point.
 
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