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(Huffington Post)   A Girl Scouts troop's decision to admit a 7-year-old transgender child this fall has prompted three leaders to resign and dissolve their troops. Guess they'll all forfeit their tolerance badges   (huffingtonpost.com) divider line 560
    More: Stupid, troops, The Christian Post, prompt corner, inclusion  
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10408 clicks; posted to Main » on 22 Dec 2011 at 6:02 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2011-12-22 09:00:17 AM  

Gdalescrboz: How about "it's none of your farking business, dickwad?"


Gdalescrboz: technicolor-misfit 2011-12-22 06:44:44 AM

Gdalescrboz: The "tolerance" argument is what people use when they can't think of anything to say that makes sense. If your argument is "you are wrong because you are intolerant," then you are wrong.


How about "it's none of your farking business, dickwad?"


If the girl is happier, if her parents are at peace with it, if the GSA is accepting of it, and if if the girls and parents of the troop she belongs to have no problem with it... then how about you take your farking nose out of their business and put in a goddamn book for a few minutes and try to knock some of the steaming pile stupid off your farking noggin.

You also someone is wrong when they turn to insults. On a side note, you complety missed my point. If you can't come up with a better argument that "you are intolerant," then it doesnt sound liek you have a very good argument



No hate like liberal hate...

Liberals have tolerance of other people's views as long as it agrees with theirs or you are labeled a racist, sexist, or whatever ___ist.
 
2011-12-22 09:01:12 AM  
Balloon boy with longer hair.
 
2011-12-22 09:01:18 AM  

Silvara: Gig103: Can a 7 year old be a transgender, if they haven't been through puberty and thus do not have a sexual identity?

FTFA: "I believe he was born in the wrong body,"

Oh, YOU believe? That's okay then, it isn't possible your son is a little effeminate, likes dolls and/or might be gay, he must be transgender. This is a stupid situation to put the GSA in .

I don't think puberty is required for sexual identity. There are plenty of transgender people out there who will tell you they identified as such long before puberty. Sometimes it very specifically comes down to genes.


This is the common but mistaken conflation of gender identity and gender-defined sexual orientation. The two are popularly conflated in the public mind because the gender orientation of affectional attraction, especially sexual attraction, is so deeply ingrained in both the social reality and the popular consciousness, and so often defined in strictly adult terms, that many people find it very difficult to grasp the notion that a person's own gender identity is separate from the gender orientation of their external attractions.

The actual mechanism of gender dysphoria remains poorly understood, but the reality and force of it has been recognised and (not by everyone, to be sure) accepted for much longer than modern medicine has been around. From what I've read so far, and admittedly not that recently (I recommend Dr. Anne Fausto-Sterling's works on this subject, for general readers), current theory revolves around structural and functional differences between 'male' and 'female' typified brains, now much more visible using fMRI and similar techniques. That is, we are the person who lives in our braincase, no matter what the rest of our body suggests. Because the complex biomechanics of neonatal gender differentiation can result in an essentially female brain being placed in an essentially male habitus, or vice versa, it's probably much more common than suspected. Our bodies being much simpler than our brains, but our brains being much more malleable, it's quite likely that borderline gender dysmorphics (who may actually be much more numerous than 'textbook' transgenders) just learn to live with it, one way or another, and may never even figure it out for themselves. But complete dysmorphics don't, and can't.

So yes, it seems very likely that a large number of transgenders already know who they are at a very young age, long before they have any notions or understandings about romance and sex, never mind any considerations of what sort of other people they might be attracted to.

Nevertheless, it's most common for people -- by which I mean adults (if not necessarily grown-ups) -- to conflate these two, in fact considering them part and parcel of the same sphere, and for that inseparable -- in complete defiance of the clinical reality. We say a man is 'effeminate' or a woman is 'masculine' if they don't conform to tightly defined social gender roles, and that's why people consider transgenders 'gay'. Never mind that the very concept of transgenderism begs us to question the rationale behind the inherently derivative concepts of 'gay' and 'straight'. It's perhaps that threat, more than anything else, that gets many people's panties in a twist.

The most common reaction is for people to express dismay and confusion, but what they're really expressing is the cognitive dissonance generated by the confrontation of reality with the preconceptions -- the received wisdom, if you will -- that our culture has handed all of us. The fact that those preconceptions happen to be factually incorrect, and incompatible with the deeper and more interesting complexities of reality, is more than a lot of people want to deal with. So to the extent that they can avoid dealing with it by the traditional -- and often socially approved -- methods of denial, denigration, and so on, they often will take the short, low road, rather than the more challenging high road.

All of which is why only a very few lucky kids can have nice things like acceptance and respect.
 
2011-12-22 09:04:08 AM  

SevenizGud: I want to have my stain of bacteria admitted to the girl scouts.

[phil.cdc.gov image 640x428]

Sure, it's a different species, but you would only know that if you observed it.

Whatsamatter? Where's your tolerance?


GNID. Hmm, did you pick gonnococcus or were you born that way?
 
2011-12-22 09:04:39 AM  

Benevolent Misanthrope:

This just in: Christians are a bunch of demented f*ckwit busybodies who tend to cut off their noses to spite other people's faces. Ric Romero reports.


Yep, all of us, every single one of us.
Just like Muslims all blow up markets and white people are all rich plantation owners.
Every single one of them.
 
2011-12-22 09:05:11 AM  

WhyteRaven74: Gig103: Can a 7 year old be a transgender, if they haven't been through puberty and thus do not have a sexual identity?

In a word, yes.

Also, consider that the girl in question was admitted to a troop in Colorado, and the troops that broke up are in Louisiana. That's right, people not even in the same state are so butthurt than instead of be mature adults they have to throw hissy fits.


This is why I like to make it clear that I was born in New Orleans, and not merely "in Louisiana".
 
2011-12-22 09:05:42 AM  

osafer: No. A 7 year old has no clue on what sex they are other then mine is an outtie and her's is an innie. I am not saying the kid can't be effeminate or even gay, but to say he is transgender at this age is crazy . I can almost guarantee that this child's mother is a complete loon...


This. My son likes dolls, but he also likes trucks... he plays with his sisters barbies as often as she plays with his hot wheels. But he hasn't picked or been assigned or reassigned. I don't know how I would address if he constantly wanted to only wear skirts and such - but whatever my choice, it wouldn't be "well, then you're transgender now!". I think that at this age, much like playing "war" and such helps boys "work things out", wearing female clothes might just be how a child works things out. It's not about "I am unhappy as [previous gender]" or "I must be [new gender]". They're just ... figuring it out.

If gender identity is unrelated to sexual identity, then why did the 'good' article linked on the first page have a transgender boy who was physically altered to be a girl? The issues described in that article are how he interacts with material items.

Female clothes look odd on males because they're not tailored for their form. They're different. Men and women are different. When a little boy wants to wear girl clothes, it's not wrong because of who he or she is, it just looks unappealing because the clothes simply aren't intended for that purpose.

Isn't it a spectrum anyway? I've always thought that. If you lay out how you look ('male/female') on one axis and how you act on another - but don't call it 'male' and 'female' is there any purpose to the entire transgender movement at that point? I've always viewed guys who behave more 'like girls' as still guys. But it sounds like the behavior axis is being used as a means to justify an alteration of the appearance axis.
 
2011-12-22 09:05:47 AM  

Sylvia_Bandersnatch: Silvara: Gig103: Can a 7 year old be a transgender, if they haven't been through puberty and thus do not have a sexual identity?

FTFA: "I believe he was born in the wrong body,"

Oh, YOU believe? That's okay then, it isn't possible your son is a little effeminate, likes dolls and/or might be gay, he must be transgender. This is a stupid situation to put the GSA in .

I don't think puberty is required for sexual identity. There are plenty of transgender people out there who will tell you they identified as such long before puberty. Sometimes it very specifically comes down to genes.

This is the common but mistaken conflation of gender identity and gender-defined sexual orientation. The two are popularly conflated in the public mind because the gender orientation of affectional attraction, especially sexual attraction, is so deeply ingrained in both the social reality and the popular consciousness, and so often defined in strictly adult terms, that many people find it very difficult to grasp the notion that a person's own gender identity is separate from the gender orientation of their external attractions.

The actual mechanism of gender dysphoria remains poorly understood, but the reality and force of it has been recognised and (not by everyone, to be sure) accepted for much longer than modern medicine has been around. From what I've read so far, and admittedly not that recently (I recommend Dr. Anne Fausto-Sterling's works on this subject, for general readers), current theory revolves around structural and functional differences between 'male' and 'female' typified brains, now much more visible using fMRI and similar techniques. That is, we are the person who lives in our braincase, no matter what the rest of our body suggests. Because the complex biomechanics of neonatal gender differentiation can result in an essentially female brain being placed in an essentially male habitus, or vice versa, it's probably much more common than suspected. Our bodies being much ...


Please keep your comments to a paragraph or less, and with more snark, this is fark Christ's sake...
 
2011-12-22 09:05:57 AM  

Silvara: Gig103: Can a 7 year old be a transgender, if they haven't been through puberty and thus do not have a sexual identity?

FTFA: "I believe he was born in the wrong body,"

Oh, YOU believe? That's okay then, it isn't possible your son is a little effeminate, likes dolls and/or might be gay, he must be transgender. This is a stupid situation to put the GSA in .

I don't think puberty is required for sexual identity. There are plenty of transgender people out there who will tell you they identified as such long before puberty. Sometimes it very specifically comes down to genes.


I just wanted to add there seems to be a neurological basis for this "feeling" too, like (to use computer lingo) the wrong hardware drivers were loaded onto the fetal OS while in the womb. I don't "get" TG people but they aren't necessarily snowflake attention whores etc. It's a little bit deeper than mere "feelings".
 
2011-12-22 09:06:26 AM  

lilplatinum: Carth:
If a person can be genetically born to only eat cake than yes. It is like telling your gay son he still has to date females.

Except

1) The extent of genetic to social influence in Genetic Identity Disorder is still largely up to date

and more importantly

2) In this case we are assuming that because a 7 year old wants to be a girl they automatically qualify on the DSM-IV as having it.


I agree. I think the parents should do what is least likely to result in harm to the child. In this case that would be letting him live as a girl if she wants and letting her go back to living as a boy if she wishes.

Forcing a her to live as a boy if she doesn't want to could set up a life long problem with gender identity. Letting her live as a girl if it is only a phase will be an embarrassing thing she did at 7.

Would it be difficult to transition back to living as a boy at 13? probably but switching to a new school after a summer break would solve almost all the problems.

Hopefully the kid is already in therapy because she'll definitely need it in the years to come.
 
2011-12-22 09:06:58 AM  
If a little boy acts like a little girl, that's just fine. If a little boy acts like a little boy that a suspension, some counseling and a prescription for Ritalin.
 
2011-12-22 09:07:14 AM  
How can it be "genetic" if he has an identical twin that doesn't have this issue.

Does a 7 yr old really understand what "being a girl" is? I don't think that wanting long hair, playing with dolls and wearing dresses should equate to my son wants a vagina and to become a girl.

I think that society has given parents a diagnoses that they make happen in their kids sometimes. How much of the parents " Acceptance" maybe caused the child to say HEY I GET MORE ATTENTION doing this. And then it was what got accustomed to.

I didnt know girl from boy at that age and I dont think he does either.
 
2011-12-22 09:08:57 AM  

I Hope Your Plane Crashes Twice: Stop getting hung up on one word out of a long statement there buddy. And by your so carefully executed definition you'd say that me spitting on you for not believing what I believe isn't persecution? Sweet! Come on over and let SpitFest 99' begin!


You let me know when they actually get spit on, and you might have a point.

Don't get pissy because you don't understand the words you're using.
 
2011-12-22 09:08:57 AM  
www.sadanduseless.com
Wow.
 
2011-12-22 09:09:14 AM  

StrangeQ: Same question I posed to platinum: was this kid one of those?


How the hell should I know? I prefer to let this family and this child deal with their own situation as they see fit. And while I do not doubt that there are a great number of things that a 7-year-old does not know, I feel like one's self is something you figure out relatively quickly.
Might she change her mind down the road? Might she regret presenting as a girl through her youth? Perhaps. It has happened before and it will happen again. But it's none of my damn business, and you'll notice that very few if any of those advocating a strict binary of genders have any evidence to support their belief that "This is just mommy wanting a daughter and insisting upon her son."
 
2011-12-22 09:10:39 AM  

GAT_00: Gig103: This is a stupid situation to put the GSA in .

Yes, the GIRL SCOUTS are the party in the right here.


GIRL SCOUTS, not TRANSGENDER SCOUTS.

Stupid libs trying to impose yet another tyranny of the minority.
 
2011-12-22 09:12:15 AM  
Funny how upset people want to get about "intolerance" instead of the horrific travesty of what is being done to the child.
 
2011-12-22 09:12:37 AM  

give me doughnuts: So if parents ever come into the workplace trying to fund-raise for their kids in American Heritage Scouts (Boys and Girls), please be so kind as to spit in their eye.


I've always found it important to never stoop to the low tactics one would despise in anyone else. As Ann Magnuson said, when you start thinking like that, you start thinking like them. Or as Gandhi said, BE the change you want to see. Be better -- not for the sake of being better (which itself should be despicable, as any sincere gratuitous self-aggrandisement should be), but to set the example. Just tell them you already gave -- to the Girl Scouts. But do be sure and tell them why.

This can be difficult, but liberating. When confronted by this season's ubiquitous storefront bellringers, I'll tell them (only if asked, mind you) that I already gave to United Way. If pressed, I'll go on to explain that United Way does not discriminate, and leave it at that. Let them research it on their own if they want.
 
2011-12-22 09:12:57 AM  

sgleason818: Jobber8742: Kudos to the Girl Scout troop for being accepting. There isn't a real reason to exclude this child other than other people's butthurt. But, this child will never be fully accepted as a girl. This kid can certainly not play on a girl's sports team, nor should she be allowed to. There are physical differences between boys and girls, and unfortunately you can't just let this child play on the girl's team. It is unfair, but to let the child play, it would be unfair to the other girls.

I am completely ignorant of this whole transgender thing. At seven, how do you tell the difference between a boy who just likes pretty things and a boy who believes he should be a girl? I don't think the Boobieser in this thread was being hateful in what he said, he just lacked tact in wondering this same thing.

How do you tell the difference? You don't. The child tells you. In fact the child keeps telling everyone she or he can, and hopefully someone listens.


Okay, they listen, let him act like a girl for a week, then he changes his mind and wants to be a boy again. That kid will be ruined for life if he stays in the same school. He shouldn't be, but kids are very very very cruel. My point is, seven year olds don't know what they want. They'll go around telling everyone they want this and that, then next week, they don't want it anymore. A decision as serious as changing your gender identity is something I would have a very hard time allowing a seven year old to make. Maybe that makes me a bad person, I don't know? I suppose I would seek advice of several professionals on the subject before I let the child make any crazy life changing decisions.
 
2011-12-22 09:13:18 AM  

Gig103: Can a 7 year old be a transgender, if they haven't been through puberty and thus do not have a sexual identity?

FTFA: "I believe he was born in the wrong body,"

Oh, YOU believe? That's okay then, it isn't possible your son is a little effeminate, likes dolls and/or might be gay, he must be transgender. This is a stupid situation to put the GSA in .


Gender identity is not the same as sexual identity. You knew you were male before you hit puberty, right? Probably even earlier than 7.
 
2011-12-22 09:14:00 AM  
Sounds like the three who quit shouldn't be allowed to poison the minds of children anyway. Evangelical Christian conservatism is becoming indistinguishable from child abuse.
 
2011-12-22 09:16:18 AM  

give me doughnuts: Correction: Just girls. The BSA is already intolerant enough.


It's not quite that simple. The *national* council is the one that went to court for the right to bar gays, and won. And legally, they were correct: as a private organisation, they have that right, just like all the private country clubs that still legally exclude Blacks and Jews, so they're in fine company, to be sure. But that was only a clarification of their right to do so. Local councils make their own rules about it, and many of them don't discriminate. I was living in Rhode Island at the time, and the Narragansett Council publicly affirmed their acceptance of gay Scounts. They were the first, but by no means the only ones.
 
2011-12-22 09:16:29 AM  

lilplatinum: Carth: So if a 7 year old does say "I want to live as a girl" should the parents say no and force them to live as a boy?

If a 7 year old says "I want to eat cake for 3 meals a day" should the parents say no and force him to eat his dinner?


Both scenarios require a conversation with the child about what the consequences of their desired courses of action. Just saying yes or no isn't the answer. The child needs to know why you belive they shouldn't do what they wish. The cake question, the parents should stand firm. The gender question, if after explaining to the child that they will be questioned and unfairly ridiculed by people, that they may have to give up the chance to join gender specific organizations, that their decision will have ramification every moment of their life...if they still want to, the parents should support their child in that choice. I would push for a lets try it out at home and revisit in a few years.

/and don't let the kid listen to any Bill Cosby for a while
 
2011-12-22 09:16:29 AM  
Meh, can't we scrap Girl and Boy scouts and just have scouts?

Keeping the genders socially segregated just don't seem healthy (and I speak as someone who was segregated in an all-male school).
 
2011-12-22 09:17:37 AM  
Only 3 leaders ragequit? I'd imagine the boy scouts would implode if anyone tried something like this.
 
2011-12-22 09:17:39 AM  

lilplatinum: Carth: So if a 7 year old does say "I want to live as a girl" should the parents say no and force them to live as a boy?

If a 7 year old says "I want to eat cake for 3 meals a day" should the parents say no and force him to eat his dinner?


Yeah but in other news sometimes life is a shiat sandwich with no options that aren't bollocks. You pick. Don't imagine yourself as a kid saying that to your parents. Imagine you have a kid who just breaks the fark down crying, begging you to help them out because they hate how they are. You're sitting there, your first thought is "I thought you were upset because I said you couldn't have cake for lunch. fark. Why couldn't you just be upset about not having cake for lunch? I have no farking clue how to deal with you being disgusted with your body. I never had that problem."

I'll tell you this, saying "Man up, Nancy Drew, and put your big boy balls on. You see, you're just 7. So clearly, you're retarded." is going to end up with you being confused 10 years later when you come home and he's blown his head off with a rifle because he couldn't even rely on his own family for help in a constantly difficult aspect of life.

OR you could unnecessarily by encouraging a whim, and after a few years of having life voluntarily STILL suck, they say "You know what, this is bullshiat. I don't even want to be a girl." Except then they get to STOP. Boy, it's a good thing everyone on Fark is still tied down to whatever social roles or stupid shiat they did when they were growing up, too.
 
2011-12-22 09:18:01 AM  
I don't think you've experienced real pettiness until you've had a child in Girl Scouts. I dealt with them and the Boy Scouts and while the BSA's values regarding GLBT and Atheists is plain backwards, they at least didn't have the petty backbiting and martyrdom I saw in the Girl Scouts.
 
2011-12-22 09:20:03 AM  

RminusQ: StrangeQ: Same question I posed to platinum: was this kid one of those?

How the hell should I know? I prefer to let this family and this child deal with their own situation as they see fit. And while I do not doubt that there are a great number of things that a 7-year-old does not know, I feel like one's self is something you figure out relatively quickly.
Might she change her mind down the road? Might she regret presenting as a girl through her youth? Perhaps. It has happened before and it will happen again. But it's none of my damn business, and you'll notice that very few if any of those advocating a strict binary of genders have any evidence to support their belief that "This is just mommy wanting a daughter and insisting upon her son."


You do realize that this attention whore of a mother, has decided her little snow flake is transgender at the tender age of 7 is forcing this issue into the limelight by trying to join the GIRL scouts. The mother wanted to make a stink, pure and simple. She could have joined any number of other groups like the scouts that are gender neutral.
 
2011-12-22 09:20:17 AM  

Jobber8742: Okay, they listen, let him act like a girl for a week, then he changes his mind and wants to be a boy again. That kid will be ruined for life if he stays in the same school. He shouldn't be, but kids are very very very cruel. My point is, seven year olds don't know what they want. They'll go around telling everyone they want this and that, then next week, they don't want it anymore. A decision as serious as changing your gender identity is something I would have a very hard time allowing a seven year old to make. Maybe that makes me a bad person, I don't know? I suppose I would seek advice of several professionals on the subject before I let the child make any crazy life changing decisions.


Farking this. Thank you.

Everyone is so convinced that their little snowflake is so perfect and special that they forget something very important - kids are stupid. They don't know what the hell they're doing. That's what being a kid is. Your job as a parent is to protect them until they're old enough to make their own decisions. Your job is not to indulge their every whim. And your job is certainly not to create a publicity stunt and hold them up as a public spectacle.
 
2011-12-22 09:20:42 AM  
So, lets see if i have this right. /dnrtfa Some boy wants to join the Girl Scouts?

Um No, you have the wrong equipment.

Some people should never breed. In this case it was his parents.
 
2011-12-22 09:21:25 AM  

Billified: lilplatinum: Carth: So if a 7 year old does say "I want to live as a girl" should the parents say no and force them to live as a boy?

If a 7 year old says "I want to eat cake for 3 meals a day" should the parents say no and force him to eat his dinner?

Both scenarios require a conversation with the child about what the consequences of their desired courses of action. Just saying yes or no isn't the answer. The child needs to know why you belive they shouldn't do what they wish. The cake question, the parents should stand firm. The gender question, if after explaining to the child that they will be questioned and unfairly ridiculed by people, that they may have to give up the chance to join gender specific organizations, that their decision will have ramification every moment of their life...if they still want to, the parents should support their child in that choice. I would push for a lets try it out at home and revisit in a few years.

/and don't let the kid listen to any Bill Cosby for a while


Kids can't comprehend the outcomes of decisions. This is why we treat kids who commit crimes differently than we do adults. I kid will say, "I don't care if I get sick and fat, I want to eat cake for every meal". Then two weeks down the road, they will regret the decision. You can sit a kid down and explain to them how hard it would be to change gender association, but they most likely will not comprehend what in the world you are talking about.
 
2011-12-22 09:22:13 AM  

SevenizGud: I have a 7 year old son who thinks he is an armed and legged person in a quadruple amputee's body. And I agree with him.

Should we have his arms and legs cut off, or have him live a lie, doing untold psychological trauma, and scarring him for life?


That's called Body integrity identity disorder, and people who are affected by it can improve their mental/ emotional states by amputating the offending body part. Medical science does not approve of course, so people will self amputate.

See also (new window).
 
2011-12-22 09:22:45 AM  

Gig103: Can a 7 year old be a transgender, if they haven't been through puberty and thus do not have a sexual identity?

FTFA: "I believe he was born in the wrong body,"

Oh, YOU believe? That's okay then, it isn't possible your son is a little effeminate, likes dolls and/or might be gay, he must be transgender. This is a stupid situation to put the GSA in .


Speaking of stupid, look at your post.
 
2011-12-22 09:23:29 AM  
I don't think this kid has any idea what he wants
pretty much like any 7 year old.

But parents registering their protest by yanking their kids out
IN ANOTHER FRIGGIN" STATE
is just...moronic
 
2011-12-22 09:23:40 AM  

evilmrsock: Yeah but in other news sometimes life is a shiat sandwich with no options that aren't bollocks. You pick. Don't imagine yourself as a kid saying that to your parents. Imagine you have a kid who just breaks the fark down crying, begging you to help them out because they hate how they are. You're sitting there, your first thought is "I thought you were upset because I said you couldn't have cake for lunch. fark. Why couldn't you just be upset about not having cake for lunch? I have no farking clue how to deal with you being disgusted with your body. I never had that problem."


And you fix that by pretending they are somthing else?
 
2011-12-22 09:24:23 AM  

give me doughnuts: So if parents ever come into the workplace trying to fund-raise for their kids in American Heritage Scouts (Boys and Girls), please be so kind as to spit in their eye.


You want to do that to the parents, fine, but don't hassle the kids.

I was at a local grocery with my son and a couple other Cub Scouts while they were selling popcorn for their Pack fund raiser. They asked this one dude if he wanted to buy any and he started into this whole angry spiel about how he won't give any money to Scouts because they don't support gay rights. He was getting so wound up he was actually starting to scare the boys.

I finally had to cut him off and tell him "Dude, they're nine years old. They didn't make the policy."
 
2011-12-22 09:24:39 AM  

imontheinternet: RminusQ: iNo, there are plenty of other douchebags who got here before you.

A boy who likes to play with dolls and act feminine isn't necessarily a girl. He might just be gay.


The problem that I see is people's social norms don't extend to having as wide a range of behaviors in males and females as to encompass the actual population. Being feminine on the masculine/feminine scale doesn't make a boy gay or a woman straight, any more than being masculine makes a woman gay and a man straight. Young kids don't even have a gender identity, and anyone who thinks his 4 year old is gay or transgendered because he likes to walk around in his mother's heels and play with dolls is projecting their own fears.

I really hope what happened is this boy liked to play with dolls and dress up in dresses, very common if you observe day care, and his parents decided his was a girl because of course BOYS can't play with dolls.
 
2011-12-22 09:24:40 AM  

Sylvia_Bandersnatch: I was living in Rhode Island at the time, and the Narragansett Council publicly affirmed their acceptance of gay Scounts. They were the first, but by no means the only ones.


True... They're an excellent organization. I've done some pro bono work for them and the leadership is made up of some intelligent, rational individuals, who realize the good they do in the community is more important than outdated religious dogma. All kids, regardless of whether they fit the narrow gender definitions some folks like to cling to, can benefit from groups like this.
 
2011-12-22 09:25:38 AM  
Can someone explain what is different about girls and boys besides the obvious physical attributes and the generalized stereotypical roles?

It's got to be something more than just wanting to play with dolls vs. wanting to play with....whatever it is boys play with at that age.
 
2011-12-22 09:26:02 AM  
Everyone here who believes a 7 year old has the mental capacity to decide they should be a different gender would sign off on that 7 year old having gender reassignment surgery, right? They absolutely "know" by age 7, so there should be no problem with taking away his boy parts.
 
2011-12-22 09:26:56 AM  

Gothnet: Meh, can't we scrap Girl and Boy scouts and just have scouts?

Keeping the genders socially segregated just don't seem healthy (and I speak as someone who was segregated in an all-male school).


Lots of politics behind that, dating all the way back to Juliette Lowe.

Suffice to say, it will never happen.
 
2011-12-22 09:26:58 AM  

Baryogenesis: HoneyDog: You answered your own question. It's not about liking certain toys or playing sports. It's just your preference.

But from what others have said above, my preference of activities makes me male. I get along and relate better to males. No chick flicks or romance novels for me.

But you still identify as female and that's the point. It's only a matter of what you prefer to identify as, male or female. Someone can identify as a girl and still not like stereotypically girl things as you have shown.


I don't really "get" gender identity. I understand that other people will stereotype you and expect certain behaviours, but that's just other people labelling you: what I don't understand is the intense personal identification that trans people seem to have. Obviously it's hard to imagine being something you're not, but I honestly don't think I'd care if I was the other gender ... I'd still be me.

Say it was racial identity: I could understand not wanting to be race-X, because of racism, or perhaps feeling marginalised because you don't like the standard things that race-Y likes. But that's a problem with the culture, not with you or your race. Society should be more accepting, you shouldn't feel like you're wrong. Flip it back into gender identity: I don't understand how someone can feel like they're in the wrong gender: you are who you are, society should accept that ... why is it the individual who is "wrong", not society?

But instead of telling society to go fly a kite, trans people seem to end up saying "I'm not doing it for society, I'm doing it for me" (obviously I'm generalising here). That's the bit I don't get ... how/why is it for you? Why is the shape of your pink-bits so important that you'd risk major surgery to change? I just don't think gender is that big of a deal once you strip the culturally imposed aspects away.
 
2011-12-22 09:28:58 AM  
Maybe he should start his own Transgendered Scouts!
 
2011-12-22 09:29:42 AM  

agoodz: Everyone here who believes a 7 year old has the mental capacity to decide they should be a different gender would sign off on that 7 year old having gender reassignment surgery, right? They absolutely "know" by age 7, so there should be no problem with taking away his boy parts.


You realize people don't get to just decide when you have gender reassignment surgery right? You need a professional to sign off on it, take hormones for a certain length of time and live as the other gender for at least one year. Since you can't take the medication until puberty I'm pretty sure that isn't a real problem to worry about.
 
2011-12-22 09:29:53 AM  
"7 - year old transgender" - that has to be the most retarded thing I've ever heard. Every kid at 7 says "I wonder what it would be like to be a girl/boy. . . "

Sounds more like bad parenting.
 
2011-12-22 09:30:15 AM  

Sylvia_Bandersnatch: Silvara: Gig103: Can a 7 year old be a transgender, if they haven't been through puberty and thus do not have a sexual identity?

FTFA: "I believe he was born in the wrong body,"

Oh, YOU believe? That's okay then, it isn't possible your son is a little effeminate, likes dolls and/or might be gay, he must be transgender. This is a stupid situation to put the GSA in .

I don't think puberty is required for sexual identity. There are plenty of transgender people out there who will tell you they identified as such long before puberty. Sometimes it very specifically comes down to genes.

This is the common but mistaken conflation of gender identity and gender-defined sexual orientation. The two are popularly conflated in the public mind because the gender orientation of affectional attraction, especially sexual attraction, is so deeply ingrained in both the social reality and the popular consciousness, and so often defined in strictly adult terms, that many people find it very difficult to grasp the notion that a person's own gender identity is separate from the gender orientation of their external attractions.

The actual mechanism of gender dysphoria remains poorly understood, but the reality and force of it has been recognised and (not by everyone, to be sure) accepted for much longer than modern medicine has been around. From what I've read so far, and admittedly not that recently (I recommend Dr. Anne Fausto-Sterling's works on this subject, for general readers), current theory revolves around structural and functional differences between 'male' and 'female' typified brains, now much more visible using fMRI and similar techniques. That is, we are the person who lives in our braincase, no matter what the rest of our body suggests. Because the complex biomechanics of neonatal gender differentiation can result in an essentially female brain being placed in an essentially male habitus, or vice versa, it's probably much more common than suspected. Our bodies being much ...


Thanks for reminding me as to why I have your name favourit'd!! :-)
 
2011-12-22 09:32:01 AM  

PunGent: duffblue: I had hope for fark before I realized it's just another hugbox for people who think trannies are something other than mentally ill.

You seem to be unfamiliar with prenatal brain development...I recommend suing whoever taught you high school biology.

Or sue your Intelligent Designer...he's probably got deeper pockets.


Funny thing, though, every time I turn around, someone god is begging for money. Of course, I'm never sure which specific avatar of the divine it is. Who was it who said, "the God I know isn't short on cash"?
 
2011-12-22 09:32:48 AM  

Carth: agoodz: Everyone here who believes a 7 year old has the mental capacity to decide they should be a different gender would sign off on that 7 year old having gender reassignment surgery, right? They absolutely "know" by age 7, so there should be no problem with taking away his boy parts.

You realize people don't get to just decide when you have gender reassignment surgery right? You need a professional to sign off on it, take hormones for a certain length of time and live as the other gender for at least one year. Since you can't take the medication until puberty I'm pretty sure that isn't a real problem to worry about.


You know you have made his argument, right?
 
2011-12-22 09:34:39 AM  
Isn't this what the Quasi Pan-sexual Genderless Scouts are for? Somewhere between this kids parents and the other kids' parents lies the truth. What a farking hassle for everybody involved.

/snowflakes
 
2011-12-22 09:34:40 AM  
It is the Girl Scouts, not to be confused with the Boy Scouts, Transgender Scouts or Hermaphrodite Scouts.

Sometimes clubs want to be exclusive, and that's OK. If you have a problem with that, make up your own damn club and have at it. Women that insist on be allowed to join men's clubs, men that insist on being allowed to be Hooter's waitresses, or men that protest Ladies Nights, it's all ridiculous. Men and women, boys and girls are different, and it is OK if they want some personal time apart from people with different parts.

Sure it sucks to be the kid not welcome in such famously intolerant groups such as the GSA & BSA. I question why anyone would want to join either group, particularly someone with identity issues. It's not fair to the uptights, who have a right to be uptight, just as we have a right to roundly mock them for it.

The real headscratcher is how people a 1000 miles away got all butthurt by someone else's decision to NOT be so uptight.
 
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