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(Huffington Post)   A Girl Scouts troop's decision to admit a 7-year-old transgender child this fall has prompted three leaders to resign and dissolve their troops. Guess they'll all forfeit their tolerance badges   (huffingtonpost.com) divider line 560
    More: Stupid, troops, The Christian Post, prompt corner, inclusion  
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10406 clicks; posted to Main » on 22 Dec 2011 at 6:02 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2011-12-22 08:23:15 AM

TravisBickle62: Egoy3k: I am not an expert on gender issues but even if I were without meeting this girl I wouldn't be able to make the sort of definitive 'he's a boy', or 'she's a girl' statements you folks are making. I would hope, though, that we could all agree that the folks putting their views ahead of the troops by disbanding are coonts.

To be definitive you would have to see the kid's genitals and that would land you a visit from "why don't you take a seat right over there" guy


Even then you couldn't be sure. Look at that female sprinter who everyone said what a male. They had to do all kinds of genetic testing a simple "pull down your pants" doesn't always work.
 
2011-12-22 08:23:34 AM

Tigger: In fact it's MORE likely that a transgender individual will report identity issues prior to puberty rather than after.


Considering Gender Identity is a sociological and psychological concept rather than something hard science can deal with, claiming absolute facts is fairly dangerous.

/But seriously, girl scouts, don't you have better things to do than whine about "dangerous" seven year olds that don't fit your repressed little world view?
 
2011-12-22 08:25:03 AM
Kudos to the Girl Scout troop for being accepting. There isn't a real reason to exclude this child other than other people's butthurt. But, this child will never be fully accepted as a girl. This kid can certainly not play on a girl's sports team, nor should she be allowed to. There are physical differences between boys and girls, and unfortunately you can't just let this child play on the girl's team. It is unfair, but to let the child play, it would be unfair to the other girls.

I am completely ignorant of this whole transgender thing. At seven, how do you tell the difference between a boy who just likes pretty things and a boy who believes he should be a girl? I don't think the Boobieser in this thread was being hateful in what he said, he just lacked tact in wondering this same thing.
 
2011-12-22 08:25:34 AM

I_Can't_Believe_it's_not_Boutros: One girl was called Jean Marie,
Another little girl was called Felicity,
Another little girl was Sally Joy,
The other was me, and I'm a boy.


Get your frock on, Jane Marie.
Brush your hair, Felicity.
Paint your nails, little Sally Joy.
Put this wig on, little boy. . . .

Didn't check to see if this got posted already. Hope not.

/LOVE the Who
 
2011-12-22 08:25:37 AM

Silvara: I don't think puberty is required for sexual identity. There are plenty of transgender people out there who will tell you they identified as such long before puberty. Sometimes it very specifically comes down to genes.


You know what? If I'd spent thousands of dollars mutilating myself I might be able to imagine (falsely) that I'd always thought of myself that way. In fact, I could claim that anything anyone doesn't like about me has "always been there" in order to avoid questions about how I got the way I am.

Q: Excuse me, Kal-el. When did you decide to be super-human?
A: Oh, I've been superhuman as along as I can remember. In fact I landed in a spaceship and was found by the Kents, my foster parents.

Yeah, unless you were found in a rocket ship from the planet we-put-spirits-in-the-wrong-body-topia, odds are it's just your selective memory and selective analysis looking at a few choice memories and a few select photographs and reinforcing the facts as you now know them.
 
2011-12-22 08:26:22 AM

Baryogenesis:

Your intelligent and well thought out post astounds me. Transgender == different species. Simply amazing!


It's the GIRL scouts. The person was not a girl, douchenozzle. So if you folks are going to allow people who are not girls into the GIRL scouts, then why stop at this species? Why not horses and bacteria? Why not trees and rocks?
 
2011-12-22 08:26:45 AM

Carth: TravisBickle62: Egoy3k: I am not an expert on gender issues but even if I were without meeting this girl I wouldn't be able to make the sort of definitive 'he's a boy', or 'she's a girl' statements you folks are making. I would hope, though, that we could all agree that the folks putting their views ahead of the troops by disbanding are coonts.

To be definitive you would have to see the kid's genitals and that would land you a visit from "why don't you take a seat right over there" guy

Even then you couldn't be sure. Look at that female sprinter who everyone said what a male. They had to do all kinds of genetic testing a simple "pull down your pants" doesn't always work.


It may not always work but in 99.9% of the cases it will
 
2011-12-22 08:27:09 AM

Silvara: Gig103: Can a 7 year old be a transgender, if they haven't been through puberty and thus do not have a sexual identity?

FTFA: "I believe he was born in the wrong body,"

Oh, YOU believe? That's okay then, it isn't possible your son is a little effeminate, likes dolls and/or might be gay, he must be transgender. This is a stupid situation to put the GSA in .

I don't think puberty is required for sexual identity. There are plenty of transgender people out there who will tell you they identified as such long before puberty. Sometimes it very specifically comes down to genes.


You're right. XY or XX, take your pick (actually don't: you don't have a choice in the matter)
 
2011-12-22 08:28:24 AM

I Hope Your Plane Crashes Twice:
I know what you're saying, but it's the fundamentalists in LA's choice how they want to align and represent themselves. Why should people persecute them because they didn't want to be associated with a group that no longer represents them in the way they wanted it to? People are saying how we should be tolerant, but where's the tolerance for the LA's groups choice to disband?



They weren't being persecuted, they resigned their positions. They weren't being persecuted, they were the persecutors who would not have been allowed to march with their agenda which is bigoted, selfish and unhealthy for children to be around.

They shouldn't be scout leaders unless they can show tolerance for diverse situations.
 
2011-12-22 08:28:54 AM

StrangeQ: You're right. XY or XX, take your pick (actually don't: you don't have a choice in the matter)


What about XXY or various other trisomys?
 
2011-12-22 08:30:32 AM

SevenizGud: Baryogenesis:

Your intelligent and well thought out post astounds me. Transgender == different species. Simply amazing!

It's the GIRL scouts. The person was not a girl, douchenozzle. So if you folks are going to allow people who are not girls into the GIRL scouts, then why stop at this species? Why not horses and bacteria? Why not trees and rocks?


Do you understand the difference between sex and gender?

People who care that much about 7 year olds' sex organs have problems.
 
2011-12-22 08:31:16 AM
I'm not against living-and-letting-live. I've known a couple of transfolk ("Tranny" is considered derogatory these days.) and had no particular problem with them. People are who they are. The people in question pay taxes, vote, etc. and are entitled to conduct their lives without being f*cked with.

That said, I DO think that at some point everyday reality has to kick in. If I employ someone who thinks he's really a cat, am I morally obliged to provide him with a litter box?
 
2011-12-22 08:31:20 AM
Little brown boy girls aren't the answer.
 
2011-12-22 08:31:33 AM

haemaker: Genevieve Marie: Tatsuma: Gig103: Can a 7 year old be a transgender, if they haven't been through puberty and thus do not have a sexual identity?

A gender identity is not the same thing as a sexual identity.

Yea, it would be awesome if she is transgender AND lesbian! That would really freak them out.


Like one of my good friends is?
 
2011-12-22 08:32:44 AM

Marcintosh: Can't figure out if it's hate disguised as fear
or
fear disguised as hate

Not suuuuure . . .

well anyway, just keep being good christians and uh, drop dead as soon as you can, mmmkay?


Mensa doesn't hate or fear you, you just didn't meet the criteria. You'll get over it.
 
2011-12-22 08:32:56 AM

Baryogenesis: Baryogenesis: Remind me which group made the big stink about the transgender girl. Was it the family who just wanted their daughter to be allowed in the Girl Scouts? Or was it the 3 butt hurt troop leaders in another state that resigned and disbanded their troops in protest?

I would say trying to getting a male in a group with is primarily defined as a group that is made up of no males is making a stink.

The scout troop ended up welcoming the transgender child. Yes, quite the uproar.


The fact remains that this all started with a family wanting a male in an all-female group. I think the peopel from LA are asshats, but don't pretend thay are the only ones making afuss.
 
2011-12-22 08:33:04 AM
gender & sexual identity is not a choice.

And neither is a binary proposition. There is a gender continuum. This kid feels that she is a girl regardless of the physical display of male sex organs. Just like I feel like a straight male.

I didn't choose to be a straight male, I was born that way...most lucky people are born with the physical & emotionally gender aligned - it helps keep the species going. Others are not, but it is in no way a choice.
 
2011-12-22 08:33:58 AM

Benevolent Misanthrope: Soooo, a Colorado troup admits the kid, and that makes a bunch of stick-up-their-ass Louisiana Christians think it's their farking business and take the entire experience of scouting away from the girls in their troup. Got it.


Or you know, since the leaders are generally volunteers, they may have quit because not getting paid to have crazies scream at them doesn't seem like a fun way to spend their free time. It's possible the leaders are intolerant farkwards, but it's also possible they just didn't want to be stuck in the middle of the mess.
 
2011-12-22 08:34:08 AM

Carth: Do you understand the difference between sex and gender?

People who care that much about 7 year olds' sex organs have problems.


Well, technically, if it is Girl Scouts it would be referring to sex and not gender.

Dictionary defines Girl as "a female child, from birth to full growth."

and female as "a person bearing two X chromosomes in the cell nuclei and normally having a vagina, a uterus and ovaries, and developing at puberty a relatively rounded body and enlarged breasts, and retaining a beardless face; a girl or woman."

Regardless of what you want to call yourself in the social construct of gender, under a strict reading, Girl scouts are based on sex...
 
2011-12-22 08:36:28 AM
The controversy began when Felisha Archuleta protested against a Denver troop's decision to not initially allow her transgender daughter, Bobby Montoya, to join the group. "I believe he was born in the wrong body," Archuleta, who also confessed to having difficulty switching from male to female pronouns when discussing her child, told ABC. "But the Girl Scout leader told us he can't join because he has 'boy parts.'... But no one would know he's a boy unless they pulled his pants down."

Your child is a boy who is farked in the head because of YOU.
He's not "transgendered," just confused as hell.
 
2011-12-22 08:36:38 AM

FaceRape: This kid feels that she is a girl regardless of the physical display of male sex organs.


The word "girl" in girl scouts is a word that denotes sex, not gender. A bulldyke would be accepted to girl scouts, because it has a vagina. This isn't a difficult concept...
 
2011-12-22 08:36:53 AM

FaceRape: I didn't choose to be a straight male, I was born that way...most lucky people are born with the physical & emotionally gender aligned - it helps keep the species going


Interesting that you have solved the nature/nuture debate - you should call the psychologists and sociologists of the world and tell them that you've got that one off their plate for them..
 
2011-12-22 08:41:05 AM

keylock71: I Hope Your Plane Crashes Twice: Maybe you aren't seeing the same comments I am about how we should all spit on the group from LA when we see them? And yeah, I'd say spitting on someone for disagreeing is 100% persecution.

per·se·cute
: to harass or punish in a manner designed to injure, grieve, or afflict;

douch.baggery
: to act like or imitate Keylock71.

Stop getting hung up on one word out of a long statement there buddy. And by your so carefully executed definition you'd say that me spitting on you for not believing what I believe isn't persecution? Sweet! Come on over and let SpitFest 99' begin!

 
2011-12-22 08:41:19 AM
Am I the only one who reads "transgendered 7 year old" as "parents wanted a girl?"
 
2011-12-22 08:41:21 AM

lilplatinum: Carth: Do you understand the difference between sex and gender?

People who care that much about 7 year olds' sex organs have problems.

Well, technically, if it is Girl Scouts it would be referring to sex and not gender.

Dictionary defines Girl as "a female child, from birth to full growth."

and female as "a person bearing two X chromosomes in the cell nuclei and normally having a vagina, a uterus and ovaries, and developing at puberty a relatively rounded body and enlarged breasts, and retaining a beardless face; a girl or woman."

Regardless of what you want to call yourself in the social construct of gender, under a strict reading, Girl scouts are based on sex...


I think that would depend on the girl scouts charter or at least the legal definition not the one in merriam webster. The legal definition of female is a lot more involved.
 
2011-12-22 08:43:27 AM
To repeat the title of Lord Bertrand Russell's book. "Why I Am Not A Christian".
 
2011-12-22 08:45:39 AM
Call it the pussy scouts. Then if your son wanted to join, then you could argue that he is a pussy.
 
2011-12-22 08:45:55 AM

IAMTHEINTARWEBS: According to the prevailing attitude of those professing tolerance in these threads that pen1s cannot/does not define you.

So why hate it so much?


Because others use the penis to define you, whether you want them to or not. It's like if you're born with a third hand. You might not consider that the most important thing about you, and you might not want people to consider that the most important thing about you, but damn if there won't be some school kids who call you "Three-hand, three-hand, lalalala mutant three-hand".

I Hope Your Plane Crashes Twice: Maybe you aren't seeing the same comments I am about how we should all spit on the group from LA when we see them? And yeah, I'd say spitting on someone for disagreeing is 100% persecution.


Doing a search through this thread for "spit" produces two results. One saying you should spit on anyone selling goods for BSA/GSA, and the other calling the first one intolerant.
 
2011-12-22 08:46:43 AM

Jobber8742: Kudos to the Girl Scout troop for being accepting. There isn't a real reason to exclude this child other than other people's butthurt. But, this child will never be fully accepted as a girl. This kid can certainly not play on a girl's sports team, nor should she be allowed to. There are physical differences between boys and girls, and unfortunately you can't just let this child play on the girl's team. It is unfair, but to let the child play, it would be unfair to the other girls.

I am completely ignorant of this whole transgender thing. At seven, how do you tell the difference between a boy who just likes pretty things and a boy who believes he should be a girl? I don't think the Boobieser in this thread was being hateful in what he said, he just lacked tact in wondering this same thing.


How do you tell the difference? You don't. The child tells you. In fact the child keeps telling everyone she or he can, and hopefully someone listens.
 
2011-12-22 08:47:51 AM

Baryogenesis: HoneyDog: You answered your own question. It's not about liking certain toys or playing sports. It's just your preference.

But from what others have said above, my preference of activities makes me male. I get along and relate better to males. No chick flicks or romance novels for me.

But you still identify as female and that's the point. It's only a matter of what you prefer to identify as, male or female. Someone can identify as a girl and still not like stereotypically girl things as you have shown.


I believe her point is that at age 7, children are remarkably malleable towards echoing their parents' wishes. In her case, because of her outwardly male social orientation, had her parents decided she was transgendered, she likely would have gone along with it -- despite her not actually being transgendered; merely tomboyish.

7 year olds aren't old enough to choose their own bed times. It's somewhat ridiculous to simultaneously believe they can understand the ramifications of reassigning their gender.
 
2011-12-22 08:49:02 AM

This text is now purple: Baryogenesis: HoneyDog: You answered your own question. It's not about liking certain toys or playing sports. It's just your preference.

But from what others have said above, my preference of activities makes me male. I get along and relate better to males. No chick flicks or romance novels for me.

But you still identify as female and that's the point. It's only a matter of what you prefer to identify as, male or female. Someone can identify as a girl and still not like stereotypically girl things as you have shown.

I believe her point is that at age 7, children are remarkably malleable towards echoing their parents' wishes. In her case, because of her outwardly male social orientation, had her parents decided she was transgendered, she likely would have gone along with it -- despite her not actually being transgendered; merely tomboyish.

7 year olds aren't old enough to choose their own bed times. It's somewhat ridiculous to simultaneously believe they can understand the ramifications of reassigning their gender.


So if a 7 year old does say "I want to live as a girl" should the parents say no and force them to live as a boy?
 
2011-12-22 08:49:36 AM
What the fark? So they don't think that a child with a penis and no female sex organs should be joining the Girl Scouts? Whats wrong with these people.
 
2011-12-22 08:50:05 AM

Carth: lilplatinum: Carth: Do you understand the difference between sex and gender?

People who care that much about 7 year olds' sex organs have problems.

Well, technically, if it is Girl Scouts it would be referring to sex and not gender.

Dictionary defines Girl as "a female child, from birth to full growth."

and female as "a person bearing two X chromosomes in the cell nuclei and normally having a vagina, a uterus and ovaries, and developing at puberty a relatively rounded body and enlarged breasts, and retaining a beardless face; a girl or woman."

Regardless of what you want to call yourself in the social construct of gender, under a strict reading, Girl scouts are based on sex...

I think that would depend on the girl scouts charter or at least the legal definition not the one in merriam webster. The legal definition of female is a lot more involved.


Legally speaking it simply depends on the state's application of civil rights legislation. Federal civil rights legislation does not prevent private clubs from discrimination while some states do, and even in those that do you have to be one of the ones that includes "gender identity" as a protected class.

Also from a non law but just legal definition of girl concept, I suppose it would depend on if his family got the gender changed on the birth certificate - not sure what the requirements of that are since I don't care enough to look.
 
2011-12-22 08:50:46 AM

Carth: So if a 7 year old does say "I want to live as a girl" should the parents say no and force them to live as a boy?


If a 7 year old says "I want to eat cake for 3 meals a day" should the parents say no and force him to eat his dinner?
 
2011-12-22 08:51:34 AM

imontheinternet: Am I the only one who reads "transgendered 7 year old" as "parents wanted a girl?"


Perhaps they just wanted a unique hobby.

Some people collect snakes. Some people collect commemorative plates. These people decided to screw up their child's life.
 
2011-12-22 08:52:05 AM

imontheinternet: Am I the only one who reads "transgendered 7 year old" as "parents wanted a girl?"


No, there are plenty of other douchebags who got here before you.

lilplatinum: StrangeQ: You're right. XY or XX, take your pick (actually don't: you don't have a choice in the matter)

What about XXY or various other trisomys?


Or persons with XY and female genitalia. Or XX and male genitalia. They are rare, but they occur.
 
2011-12-22 08:52:54 AM

Charles Martel: Perhaps they just wanted a unique hobby.

Some people collect snakes. Some people collect commemorative plates. These people decided to screw up their child's life.



You should pray for them.
 
2011-12-22 08:53:13 AM

imontheinternet: Am I the only one who reads "transgendered 7 year old" as "parents wanted a girl?"


imontheinternet: Am I the only one who reads "transgendered 7 year old" as "parents wanted a girl?"


No. A 7 year old has no clue on what sex they are other then mine is an outtie and her's is an innie. I am not saying the kid can't be effeminate or even gay, but to say he is transgender at this age is crazy . I can almost guarantee that this child's mother is a complete loon...
 
2011-12-22 08:53:13 AM
There is a strong current of Fundies isolating themselves from the communities as a whole. They have separate Scout like organizations, they home school, their social excursions are to church related functions, and they go to schools/colleges/media that only reinforce their narrow world views.

No wonder that they are constantly shocked and appalled when they run into something that does not fit with their paradigm.

No wonder younger evangelicals are abandoning the cloister.
 
2011-12-22 08:53:50 AM
technicolor-misfit 2011-12-22 06:44:44 AM

Gdalescrboz: The "tolerance" argument is what people use when they can't think of anything to say that makes sense. If your argument is "you are wrong because you are intolerant," then you are wrong.


How about "it's none of your farking business, dickwad?"

If the girl is happier, if her parents are at peace with it, if the GSA is accepting of it, and if if the girls and parents of the troop she belongs to have no problem with it... then how about you take your farking nose out of their business and put in a goddamn book for a few minutes and try to knock some of the steaming pile stupid off your farking noggin.


You also someone is wrong when they turn to insults. On a side note, you complety missed my point. If you can't come up with a better argument that "you are intolerant," then it doesnt sound liek you have a very good argument
 
2011-12-22 08:55:56 AM

lilplatinum:

Legally speaking it simply depends on the state's application of civil rights legislation. Federal civil rights legislation does not prevent private clubs from discrimination while some states do, and even in those that do you have to be one of the ones that includes "gender identity" as a protected class.

Also from a non law but just legal definition of girl concept, I suppose it would depend on if his family got the gender changed on the birth certificate - not sure what the requirements of that are since I don't care enough to look.


Federally it goes by your birth certificate I didn't care enough to look into what CO's requirements were to change it.

lilplatinum: Carth: So if a 7 year old does say "I want to live as a girl" should the parents say no and force them to live as a boy?

If a 7 year old says "I want to eat cake for 3 meals a day" should the parents say no and force him to eat his dinner?


If a person can be genetically born to only eat cake than yes. It is like telling your gay son he still has to date females.
 
2011-12-22 08:56:38 AM

RminusQ: imontheinternet: Am I the only one who reads "transgendered 7 year old" as "parents wanted a girl?"

No, there are plenty of other douchebags who got here before you.

lilplatinum: StrangeQ: You're right. XY or XX, take your pick (actually don't: you don't have a choice in the matter)

What about XXY or various other trisomys?

Or persons with XY and female genitalia. Or XX and male genitalia. They are rare, but they occur.


Same question I posed to platinum: was this kid one of those?
 
2011-12-22 08:57:43 AM
I have a 7 year old son who thinks he is an armed and legged person in a quadruple amputee's body. And I agree with him.

Should we have his arms and legs cut off, or have him live a lie, doing untold psychological trauma, and scarring him for life?
 
2011-12-22 08:57:55 AM

liverleef: What the fark? So they don't think that a child with a penis and no female sex organs should be joining the Girl Scouts? Whats wrong with these people.


Here on fark, if a group of Christians thinks or does something, many farkers will generally take an opposing position. It doesn't even matter if they have to take an obviously falsifiable position either, as long as they can feel secure in knowing they didn't agree with a Christian.
 
2011-12-22 08:58:11 AM

StrangeQ: RminusQ: imontheinternet: Am I the only one who reads "transgendered 7 year old" as "parents wanted a girl?"

No, there are plenty of other douchebags who got here before you.

lilplatinum: StrangeQ: You're right. XY or XX, take your pick (actually don't: you don't have a choice in the matter)

What about XXY or various other trisomys?

Or persons with XY and female genitalia. Or XX and male genitalia. They are rare, but they occur.

Same question I posed to platinum: was this kid one of those?


If you want to pay for the genetic testing you can make the offer to the parents.
 
2011-12-22 08:58:18 AM
The child has every right to be what they want to be but trying to join an organization that by definition excludes you is just making a nuisance of yourself. THAT being said, the chapter she joined let her in. So the real problem here is with the other stuckup coonts that give a shiat.
 
2011-12-22 08:59:26 AM

Carth:
If a person can be genetically born to only eat cake than yes. It is like telling your gay son he still has to date females.


Except

1) The extent of genetic to social influence in Genetic Identity Disorder is still largely up to date

and more importantly

2) In this case we are assuming that because a 7 year old wants to be a girl they automatically qualify on the DSM-IV as having it.
 
2011-12-22 08:59:54 AM
So, what happens in 7 years when "she" wants to join the Girl's Volleyball/Soccer Team in school? Is it competative fairness? As a parent of a 14, 15, 16 year year old girl are you ok letting your daughter shower with "her"? If she's successful, does she get a spot on the Women's Olympic Team?

At what point do we begin telling the kid, "Sorry honey, you have a penis and we don't accept those in this organization"?

Personally, I think boys should be allowed to join Girl Scouts, and vice versa. The organizations teach two different sets of activities and in todays society it's not a profound statement if a man wants to cook/sew or a woman wants to hunt/fish/camp.
 
2011-12-22 09:00:06 AM

RminusQ: iNo, there are plenty of other douchebags who got here before you.


A boy who likes to play with dolls and act feminine isn't necessarily a girl. He might just be gay. Why are you so prejudiced against gay people that you would force them to be something they're not, i.e. straight females? Do gay people scare you? Do you also think black people should be raised as whites if they show an affinity for polka music and mayonaise at a young age?

You're clearly a bigot. I'm reporting you to the Liberal Butthurt Brigade.
 
2011-12-22 09:00:07 AM
Why do you want to be Loretta, Stan?
 
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