Of course, if they had worked with the EPA to make these changes in an incremental fashion over the last 30+ years, instead of paying billions of dollars to lobbyists to fight it at every turn, plant operators could have spread the costs out over the long term and still turned a healthy profit.

Now, they get to deal with it all at once, and they're upset that they finally ran out of stalling tactics. Of course, I'm sure we can all trust the veracity of their industry sponsored study that calls for 1.4M lost jobs....expect to hear that number of Fox within the hour.

Of course the EPA doesn't care that their actions will cause Electric prices to rise - some estimates say 30% in the next three years.
Prevent childhood asthma? If this were true, every person that lived in a big city in the 40s, 50s & 60s should have asthma.
Prevent 11,000 premature deaths? If people can't afford to heat their homes, how many will die?
De-fund the EPA.

"Much is made of the current debate over extending the payroll tax holiday," he told msnbc.com. "The irony is that a middle class family may end up giving that entire tax benefit back in the form of higher utility bills."

That's not remotely ironic. I fully expect any utility company to try and fark me.

adiabat: Of course the EPA doesn't care that their actions will cause Electric prices to rise - some estimates say 30% in the next three years.
Prevent childhood asthma? If this were true, every person that lived in a big city in the 40s, 50s & 60s should have asthma.
Prevent 11,000 premature deaths? If people can't afford to heat their homes, how many will die?
De-fund the EPA.

1. Prices would have gone up in much less dramatic fashion if operators had worked with the EPA to make these changes in small chunks over time. Costs could have been amortized over 10-20 year spans, and any cost increases to the consumer would have been 1-2% at a time, instead of the larger number we may see now.

2. Tons of people from the 40s-60s did have asthma. It just went undiagnosed or treated with home remedies, thus depressing the historical figures. A lot of people didn't go to the doctor for every little thing back then, and effective treatments for asthma were not as cheap to come by if they did.

3. The estimated healthcare savings will more than cover the extra few dollars to pay the power bill. Not having to treat chronic asthma or other ailments adds up very fast.

4. Sure, let's defund the EPA. I'm sure Ron Paul has a magic solution for this too.

I think the important question that needs to be asked is, does this help fetuses or rich people?

Grand_Moff_Joseph: Now, they get to deal with it all at once, and they're upset that they finally ran out of stalling tactics. Of course, I'm sure we can all trust the veracity of their industry sponsored study that calls for 1.4M lost jobs....expect to hear that number of Fox within the hour.

There are some really older plants that will be closed, they just aren't going to last long enough to be worth the investment.

That said, those plants will be replaced by something newer (thus creating even more jobs, construction, permanent workers, etc), it's not like the "electricity fairy" is going to step in and fill the void.

Power bills will rise, but that's a constant, and these looming regs were probably already factored into current pricing (they have known this was coming for nearly a decade), but yeah it wont stop them from raising the rates again with this as the reason

Eddie Adams from Torrance: I think the important question that needs to be asked is, does this help fetuses or rich people?

BOTH!

Fetuses grow healthier with good air, rich people always figure out a way to profit on shiat like this...

martissimo: Eddie Adams from Torrance: I think the important question that needs to be asked is, does this help fetuses or rich people?

BOTH!

Fetuses grow healthier with good air, rich people always figure out a way to profit on shiat like this...

OK, that's a start, but if you want me to support this, I'd like to understand if/how it farks over the poors.

Eddie Adams from Torrance: OK, that's a start, but if you want me to support this, I'd like to understand if/how it farks over the poors.

You're not even trying are you?

The new power plants will cost so much the poor will have to live in the dark...

Eddie Adams from Torrance: OK, that's a start, but if you want me to support this, I'd like to understand if/how it farks over the poors.

They will finally have to pay their "Fair Share" for power!

7of7: Why are we still allowing utilities to be private, for profit entities? If they spent half as much money on creating clean energy as they do on marketing, lobbying, lawyers, and bonuses for their executives we wouldn't be worried about them all of a sudden having to comply with regulations because they would've done it incrementally over the past decades.

Because socialism.

The market will figure this out without regulation.

/derp

martissimo: Eddie Adams from Torrance: OK, that's a start, but if you want me to support this, I'd like to understand if/how it farks over the poors.

You're not even trying are you?

The new power plants will cost so much the poor will have to live in the dark...

what new power plants?!?
what possible incentive is there to build a $1B new plant when they can simply charge more with a restricted supply?

sno man: what new power plants?!?
what possible incentive is there to build a $1B new plant when they can simply charge more with a restricted supply?

If they shutter old plants you can bet new ones will come online, there just isn't enough power not to, some places already buy power from halfway across the country just to try and avoid rolling blackouts.

The incentive will be there

I remember these exact same Concerns™ about pollution controls destroying jobs back in the early 90's, right before we went on to have one of the most prosperous decades in our nation's history. Scott Segal, an energy industry lobbyist at Bracewell & Giuliani, is full of shiat.

sno man: martissimo: Eddie Adams from Torrance: OK, that's a start, but if you want me to support this, I'd like to understand if/how it farks over the poors.

You're not even trying are you?

The new power plants will cost so much the poor will have to live in the dark...

what new power plants?!?
what possible incentive is there to build a $1B new plant when they can simply charge more with a restricted supply?

When you restrict supply and the value of each energy unit* goes up, someone will step in to fill the gap in order to make money on the new value. Supply will increase and prices will go up.

Got you there, didn't I? Yeah, up, they always go up.
"People are using too much energy and it's cutting into our profits, what do we do?"
"Raise prices!"
"We're not making as much money because people are using less of our energy, what do we do?"
"RAISE PRICES!!!"



*unit in this case referring to an arbitrary amount of energy supplied by any available generating source.

timujin: sno man: martissimo: Eddie Adams from Torrance: OK, that's a start, but if you want me to support this, I'd like to understand if/how it farks over the poors.

You're not even trying are you?

The new power plants will cost so much the poor will have to live in the dark...

what new power plants?!?
what possible incentive is there to build a $1B new plant when they can simply charge more with a restricted supply?

When you restrict supply and the value of each energy unit* goes up, someone will step in to fill the gap in order to make money on the new value. Supply will increase and prices will go up.

Got you there, didn't I? Yeah, up, they always go up.
"People are using too much energy and it's cutting into our profits, what do we do?"
"Raise prices!"
"We're not making as much money because people are using less of our energy, what do we do?"
"RAISE PRICES!!!"



*unit in this case referring to an arbitrary amount of energy supplied by any available generating source.

In a functional monopoly no new plants, price goes up more.
I like the idea that someone will step up and jump in there, but the deck is so stacked against it.

martissimo: sno man: what new power plants?!?
what possible incentive is there to build a $1B new plant when they can simply charge more with a restricted supply?

If they shutter old plants you can bet new ones will come online, there just isn't enough power not to, some places already buy power from halfway across the country just to try and avoid rolling blackouts.

The incentive will be there

from or by whom?

sno man: from or by whom?

The federal government provides billions in subsidies and loan guarantees, and many states also have their own programs.

BigTuna: sno man: from or by whom?

The federal government provides billions in subsidies and loan guarantees, and many states also have their own programs.

Yea Free Market^tm(!) and
To existing players... new guys are persona non grata.

sno man: BigTuna: sno man: from or by whom?

The federal government provides billions in subsidies and loan guarantees, and many states also have their own programs.

Yea Free Markettm(!) and
To existing players... new guys are persona non grata.

To requote martissimo, the incentive will be there.

BigTuna: sno man: BigTuna: sno man: from or by whom?

The federal government provides billions in subsidies and loan guarantees, and many states also have their own programs.

Yea Free Markettm(!) and
To existing players... new guys are persona non grata.

To requote martissimo, the incentive will be there.

If that's the case, that incentive is already there, and current producers are not falling all over themselves to build new plants....

Scott Segal, an energy industry lobbyist at Bracewell & Giuliani, said the rules will result in the loss of more than 1.4 million jobs by 2020 as utilities are forced to shutter old coal-fired plants.

Hey, jackass, can you tell me how horrible this will be in 9/11's (new window)?

A half dozen or so? 9/11 times a million? I need this metric in order to be afraid and concerned!

Le Geno Vert: you know who else was crazy for charcoal briquettes?

/henry ford, that's who

He was also the first 'captain of industry' to employ outsourcing.

FTFA:The administration was under court order to issue a new rule, after a court threw out an attempt by the Bush administration to exempt power plants from toxic air pollution controls.

Nice

Le Geno Vert: sno man: Le Geno Vert: you know who else was crazy for charcoal briquettes?

/henry ford, that's who

He was also the first 'captain of industry' to employ outsourcing.

yeah, but I was trying to use the briquette/charles kingsford/henry ford/nazi sympathizer formula to insource a godwin and you went and ruined it...

/this is why we can't have nice things

sorry 'bout that... I waited... over 30 mins.. there didn't seem to be any takers...

The treehuggers are ruining this country. Pollution is a small price to pay for jobs.

adiabat: Of course the EPA doesn't care that their actions will cause Electric prices to rise - some estimates say 30% in the next three years.
Prevent childhood asthma? If this were true, every person that lived in a big city in the 40s, 50s & 60s should have asthma.
Prevent 11,000 premature deaths? If people can't afford to heat their homes, how many will die?
De-fund the EPA.

Damn you're good!