No one wants to integrate north korea into their country. Look at west vs east germany, the west is still paying for it.

Old moldy conservative bullsh*t: The NRO

Sanduskyed In The Shower: No one wants to integrate north korea into their country. Look at west vs east germany, the west is still paying for it.

QFT

I spent six years in the ROK and talk of unification was all hunky dory until the Germanys got back together. After seeing how much West Germany had to shell out, no one in the South wants to do the same thing, considering how shiatty the economy and infrastructure is in the North. If the "IMF Era" taught them anything, it's that no one there likes to give up any of their money.

RexTalionis: Here's some relevant Wiki excerpts on the guy.

Gordon G. Chang is a lawyer and author, best known for his book The Coming Collapse of China, in which he argued that the hidden non-performing loans of the "Big Four" Chinese State banks would likely bring down China's financial system and its communist government and China would collapse in 2006.
...
Chang has been criticized after 2006 came and went with China only growing more and more powerful on the world stage. Chang continues to maintain that China is on the brink of collapse and that the people are one step away from revolution.[1]

Not to say that he's wrong, but he doesn't exactly have a great track record for predictions.

If he predicts a revolution in China every day for the rest of his liife, he may be right once.

Irving Maimway: After seeing how much West Germany had to shell out, no one in the South wants to do the same thing, considering how shiatty the economy and infrastructure is in the North.

I doubt you would feel that way if you had family or others related to you living up there.

Will they call it Kim Chi?

nekom: RexTalionis: So it is not inconceivable that, in the next two or three years, Chinese soldiers and the American military will again be face-to-face across the 155-mile Demilitarized Zone.

Hey, Gordon! I'll bet you $10,000 dollars that doesn't come true.

What's it matter if it does? Honestly, how is staring at Chinese troops any worse than staring at Norks? I can see a case for it being better in some ways.

I Would much rather stare at norks

/honk honk

nekom: whidbey: Irving Maimway: After seeing how much West Germany had to shell out, no one in the South wants to do the same thing, considering how shiatty the economy and infrastructure is in the North.

I doubt you would feel that way if you had family or others related to you living up there.

What percentage of the population is still in that boat? The war ended half a century ago, while I'm sure there are SOME in the South with living relatives in the North, I doubt there are many, fewer still who are even aware that they have living relatives in the North.

But we don't know, do we?

I have no reason to doubt it. People might even find out about long-lost family ties.

nekom: We are not going to like Beijing's handiwork.

And exactly what is not to like? An incompetent boob of a madman pulling the strings vs. China, a stable rational government who seems to get an erection for engaging in diplomacy. Someone please explain why Chinese involvement in Best Korea is a bad thing.

It's true; NK is so utterly farked that Chinese control would only be an improvement.

RexTalionis: Isn't Gordon Chang the guy who said that China's government will collapse by the end of 2011?

It was still a lovely fairy tale!

I'm surprised NRO doesn't hire Harold Camping to be an editorial columnist.

Maybe the ATF can give China some tips on how to control the criminal elements in a southern neighbor?

GAT_00: Yes, China really wants to take over a very small land area that has no actual political value except as an independent country pissing off the world, and be responsible for taking said country out of the 1950s and building an entire infrastructure there.

Easy solution: China does the takeover and hands the North to the South for Unification. The South pays for everything the North needs, and China gets to take credit and be a major trading partner an appreciated friend of Korea and gets lots of the infrastructure contracts.

HeartBurnKid: nekom: We are not going to like Beijing's handiwork.

And exactly what is not to like? An incompetent boob of a madman pulling the strings vs. China, a stable rational government who seems to get an erection for engaging in diplomacy. Someone please explain why Chinese involvement in Best Korea is a bad thing.

It's true; NK is so utterly farked that Chinese control would only be an improvement.

Besides, NK is exactly the kind of society that China loves. Death camps, starving people to death, the leaders living in luxury and centralized control. They love that stuff because that is the kind of society that they are. Once China has control, it will just provide them with more profitable slave workers.

China taking control of North Korea, at this point, would only be an improvement for North Koreans.

North Korea from space:



It's to the lower right of the DMZ. The ocean has more lights at night than NK.

One thing that might strike people as worth noting is the Northeast Project of the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences which was the subject of intense criticism from both North and South Korea.

To summarize China tried to depict the Goguryeo kingdom as merely part of China which can be seen as an attempt to lay historic claim to Korean territory. This had an interesting effect of turning South Korea from going pro-china to pro america as China became seen as a threat.

Even North Korea's state run media has denounced Chinese claims(though not too loudly) as "a pathetic attempt to manipulate history for its own interests" or "intentionally distorting historical facts through biased perspectives."

But people, we need another cold war.

Reunification is more likely.

The Kim regime collapsing into a starving military junta if Kim Jong-un proves not to be able to hold on to power is even more likely.

China wants fark all to do with North Korea.

physt: That entire article was pulled from Chang's ass. There isn't a single assertion in there that is backed up by any source.


[cdn2.screenjunkies.com image 512x288]

Well, the NRO is its own source. It is infallible perfect conservative wisdom, after all. It makes or breaks Presidents Popes and Kings. And nations.

Why would anyone want that? Eventually the soldiers will shoot their commanding officers. Just stop sending in food aid.

Am I crazy, or would an outright Chinese annexation of North Korea not be better for pretty much everyone?

-China wouldn't have to worry about an unstable, rogue regime on their doorstep anymore.
-South Korea wouldn't have to worry about an unstable, rogue regime on their doorstep anymore.
-Japan and the US would also benefit from greater regional stability.
-The international community benefits from not having nukes in the hands of a deranged, paranoid regime. The Chinese may be a lot of things, but they're not crazy, and their not going to start a nuclear war for no reason.
-And while China may have its own human rights issues, the North Korean people would almost certainly be better off.

YixilTesiphon: Why would anyone want that? Eventually the soldiers will shoot their commanding officers. Just stop sending in food aid.

So you'd rather people just starve to death?

How compassionate of you.

whidbey: YixilTesiphon: Why would anyone want that? Eventually the soldiers will shoot their commanding officers. Just stop sending in food aid.

So you'd rather people just starve to death?

How compassionate of you.

Food aid to North Korea only feeds the oppressors.

America is gearing up for a new cold war (otherwise known as "The Pacific Century"). There's no way that China will let their one ally puppet in the region collapse and have American troops right on their border.

YixilTesiphon: whidbey: YixilTesiphon: Why would anyone want that? Eventually the soldiers will shoot their commanding officers. Just stop sending in food aid.

So you'd rather people just starve to death?

How compassionate of you.

Food aid to North Korea only feeds the oppressors.

And cutting it off guarantees even more starvation.

Where do you get your inspiration for such immoral ideas?

Bad_Seed: America is gearing up for a new cold war (otherwise known as "The Pacific Century"). There's no way that China will let their one ally puppet in the region collapse and have American troops right on their border.

No. Unlike the first Cold War, China and the US are massive trade partners. China's export economy relies largely on middle-class American consumers buying the crap they make. And China owns a crap-ton of US debt. So the last thing China wants is for the US to collapse. And vice versa.

The two countries are too in bed with each other economically for there to be an actual Cold War.

Doc Daneeka: Bad_Seed: America is gearing up for a new cold war (otherwise known as "The Pacific Century"). There's no way that China will let their one ally puppet in the region collapse and have American troops right on their border.

No. Unlike the first Cold War, China and the US are massive trade partners. China's export economy relies largely on middle-class American consumers buying the crap they make. And China owns a crap-ton of US debt. So the last thing China wants is for the US to collapse. And vice versa.

The two countries are too in bed with each other economically for there to be an actual Cold War.

Exactly. Much to the chagrin of those who think Red Dawn was a manual, you don't go farking around with your best customer because no matter how cheap you produce plastic serving ware, someone else will do it as cheaply.

whidbey: YixilTesiphon: whidbey: YixilTesiphon: Why would anyone want that? Eventually the soldiers will shoot their commanding officers. Just stop sending in food aid.

So you'd rather people just starve to death?

How compassionate of you.

Food aid to North Korea only feeds the oppressors.

And cutting it off guarantees even more starvation.

Where do you get your inspiration for such immoral ideas?

Starvation is guaranteed regardless. Food aid keeps the starvation going.

YixilTesiphon: whidbey: YixilTesiphon: whidbey: YixilTesiphon: Why would anyone want that? Eventually the soldiers will shoot their commanding officers. Just stop sending in food aid.

So you'd rather people just starve to death?

How compassionate of you.

Food aid to North Korea only feeds the oppressors.

And cutting it off guarantees even more starvation.

Where do you get your inspiration for such immoral ideas?

Starvation is guaranteed regardless. Food aid keeps the starvation going.

You're welcome to keep the blinders on.

You just advocated death on a mass scale. Congratulations.

We can't really look at this from Western perspectives, except to plan our own strategy to handle this.

China taking a more assertive role in North Korea is very logical and reasonable from China's point of view.

China for most of its history was a regional economic and military power, however it has been encountering numerous difficulties asserting any sort of power beyond its own borders.

First, look at China's neighbors. It has three undisputed nuclear nations on its borders (Pakistan, India, and Russia). China has had military skirmishes/war with Russia and India since the founding of the PRC era and still has border disputes with India. China has usually been an ally of Pakistan but relations have been strained due to Pakistan's "alliance" with the USA, and recent intelligence suggesting that elements in Pakistan might be training some of the Uighur rebels who have been fighting for Xinjiang independence (East Turkestan). Many of the Central Asian countries show a lot of popular support for Xinijang independence (their governments tend to suck up to China, though). Some Central Asian countries have also allowed Russian and US military on their territories.

As for Afghanistan, I think China knows better than to go there.

Mongolia has okay relations with China, but there is some popular resentment about China's possession of Inner Mongolia, and China's claim to be the resting place of Genghis Khan. Regardless, Mongolia has stronger relations with Russia and the USA.

Japan, well we all know what China's relationship with them are.

China has strong economic ties with South Korea, but that is about where it ends. Many Chinese see Koreans as petulant little children, and there is reciprocal hate and distrust from Koreans. One South Korean friend of mine called Chinese the "Jews of East Asia".

Taiwan...well I won't even bother going there, but they are closer to the USA.

Philippines has excellent relations with the USA.

And, in Southeast Asia, the Vietnamese hate China with a passion (remember China fought a short war with Vietnam in 1979 to "punish" Vietnam for "interference in Cambodian affairs" (since the PRC supported the Khmer Rouge). Other Southeast Asian nations generally have better relations with the USA and Europe than with China.

Myanmar's relations with China are okay, but there are drug/human trafficking issues. Many of China's illegal drugs are smuggled into China over the mountainous border with Myanmar. Plus, with recent political changes in Myanmar, China is nervous about them cozying up more with India and the West.

China's relations with Nepal are pretty decent, I guess.

I am not sure about Bhutan, though. Does anyone here know? I don't think the Bhutanese even recognize China (either PRC or Taiwan), and I have heard that some Chinese consider Bhutan to be a part of Tibet, and therefore China. China's government doesn't seem to say much about this, though.

Getting back to Korea, more problems. Koreans see China as occupying a region called Balhae, which is in Manchuria (NE China), and home to much of China's ethnic Korean minority.

Add to all of this that the USA has a few numbered air forces in South Korea and Japan, and a numbered navy fleet floating around the East China Sea.

China has poor relations with most of its neighbors and North Korea is one country where they can exert some influence. China is also not pleased about the progress North Korea has made it its pursuit of a nuclear weapons stockpile and delivery systems. Lots of big cities including Shanghai and Beijing, and much of China's industrial power are within range of North Korean missiles.

With Kim Jong-un being so young and inexperienced, it is logical that they are going to keep North Korea on a short leash, and influence events within North Korea. They will never give North Korea to South Korea. China's foreign policy has usually been to "divide and dominate". China's former Prime Minister Zhou Enlai was the mastermind behind the North-South partition of Vietnam in 1954(?), as China knew that if there was a war there, the USA and South Vietnam wouldn't win (however they did not expect the USA and South Vietnam to lose...this was a big factor in the warming of USA-PRC relations in the 70s...Vietnam was an irritant to China and China wanted Vietnam permanently split).

In fact, one of China's only military/foreign policy success was Korea. China does not want to see a unified Korea. Unified Korea could have the potential to develop into an economic power to rival Japan (although not for a long time, I understand that). Another top-tier economic power on China's borders is not in China's interests.

China is going to keep a close eye on and a guiding hand in North Korea first to make sure tabs are kept on their nukes at all time, and to keep the Kim dynasty from collapsing. North Korea is too valuable to China, given how much the NorKs annoy SK, Japan, and the USA.

Umh China doesn't like crazy North Korea. Crazy North Korea does things like cause weird swings on the local stock markets and cause large American carrier battle groups to patrol uncomfortably close to Beijing.

China has in the past deployed a quarter million troops on their border with North Korea and said "Don't make us come over there and shut you up...".

Chinese biggest concern is that reunification means the RoK takes over the entire peninsula and all that military hardware on the DMZ moves north and sits on the border with China. That's their big issue, having a land border with a pro US nation (also there are millions of ethnic Koreans in Manchuria that might develop ties across an open border and create issues).

I'm pretty sure China is making moves, but those moves are to make sure Beijing controls the North Korean strategic rocket forces and avoid North Korea getting its ass kicked by a combined RoK, Japanese, and American force.

/beside how could the North Korean regime get any more hostile?
//the only thing they haven't done is a popped off a nuke and China doesn't want to be standing on their side of the Yellow Sea and watching American IBCMs land on Pyongyang as a counterstrike

Doc Daneeka: Bad_Seed: America is gearing up for a new cold war (otherwise known as "The Pacific Century"). There's no way that China will let their one ally puppet in the region collapse and have American troops right on their border.

No. Unlike the first Cold War, China and the US are massive trade partners. China's export economy relies largely on middle-class American consumers buying the crap they make. And China owns a crap-ton of US debt. So the last thing China wants is for the US to collapse. And vice versa.

The two countries are too in bed with each other economically for there to be an actual Cold War.

Clinton's been running around Asia shoring up military alliances, creating a new trade pact (that pointedly excludes China) and talking about "American Interests" in the region. In the last few months there's been a real shift in American diplomacy. Now, impossible to tell exactly how things will develop, but the ante has been upped.

This is a pretty good summary of what's been happening:

Relations between China and the United States have taken a confrontational turn in the wake of a series of initiatives taken by President Barack Obama in his recent trip to Hawaii and Asia. While taking part for the first time in the East Asia Summit in Bali, Obama and his aides reiterated the U.S. commitment to ensuring freedom of navigation in the South China Sea. They stressed that settlement to sovereignty rows in the area must be in accordance with international law, including the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS). Obama approved the sale of 24 F16-C/D jetfighters to Indonesia, which-together with the Philippines, Vietnam, Brunei, Malaysia and Taiwan-has disputed China's claims to the entire South China Sea. During a stopover in Australia, Obama announced that up to 2,500 marines would be stationed at Darwin, North Australia. Given that Darwin is a mere 600 miles from the southern tip of the Sea, the move is interpreted as an effort to boost U.S. ability to intervene in the flashpoint zone. Meanwhile, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton is scheduled to visit Burma next month in an apparent effort to improve ties with China's long-standing client state. Finally, at the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation (APEC) Forum in Hawaii, Obama made a big push for the Transpacific Partnership (TPP), a potential free trade area for some ten nations that do not include China. All these measures seem to exacerbate what Beijing perceives as an "anti-China containment policy" spearheaded by Washington (Washington Post, November 15; Associated Press, November 17; Wall Street Journal, November 18).

The Chinese Communist Party (CCP) leadership has taken multiple steps to counter the fusillades unleashed by the United States' first "Pacific President." At the rhetorical level, commentators in the state media as well as semi-official academics have warned Washington's bid to be "back in Asia" may endanger regional peace and stability in addition to harming Sino-U.S. relations. In a strongly worded commentary, the Xinhua News Agency asserted the Obama administration's maneuvers were geared toward imposing U.S. leadership in Asia for the self-serving goal of rendering the 21st century "America's Pacific century." "If the United States sticks to its Cold War mentality and continues to engage with Asian nations in a self-assertive way, it is doomed to incur repulsion in the region," Xinhua warned. The party mouthpiece added that recent U.S. policies could result in "sparking disputes and encroaching on others' interests," which might in turn jeopardize "the region's stability and prosperity" (Xinhua News Agency, November 19; Agence France-Presse, November 19). According to Renmin University's U.S. specialist Shi Yinhong, Sino-U.S. relations have entered a "very important new stage." "It is very obvious that the United States is aiming to contain and constrain China," he said. Tsinghua University international affairs expert Sun Zhe noted the U.S. gambit in Asia "has gone from the level of slogans to diplomatic action in a speedy and effective manner." He expressed fears that contention between China and the United States "has gone from under the table to center stage" (Ming Pao [Hong Kong], November 20; Chinadigitaltimes.net, November 19).

Kim Jong-il: We can't really look at this from Western perspectives, except to plan our own strategy to handle this.

China taking a more assertive role in North Korea is very logical and reasonable from China's point of view.

China for most of its history was a regional economic and military power, however it has been encountering numerous difficulties asserting any sort of power beyond its own borders.

First, look at China's neighbors. It has three undisputed nuclear nations on its borders (Pakistan, India, and Russia). China has had military skirmishes/war with Russia and India since the founding of the PRC era and still has border disputes with India. China has usually been an ally of Pakistan but relations have been strained due to Pakistan's "alliance" with the USA, and recent intelligence suggesting that elements in Pakistan might be training some of the Uighur rebels who have been fighting for Xinjiang independence (East Turkestan). Many of the Central Asian countries show a lot of popular support for Xinijang independence (their governments tend to suck up to China, though). Some Central Asian countries have also allowed Russian and US military on their territories.

As for Afghanistan, I think China knows better than to go there.

Mongolia has okay relations with China, but there is some popular resentment about China's possession of Inner Mongolia, and China's claim to be the resting place of Genghis Khan. Regardless, Mongolia has stronger relations with Russia and the USA.

Japan, well we all know what China's relationship with them are.

China has strong economic ties with South Korea, but that is about where it ends. Many Chinese see Koreans as petulant little children, and there is reciprocal hate and distrust from Koreans. One South Korean friend of mine called Chinese the "Jews of East Asia".

Taiwan...well I won't even bother going there, but they are closer to the USA.

Philippines has excellent relations with the USA.

And, in Southeast Asia, the Vietnamese ...

Dude, you're dead. Stop posting.

Philip Francis Queeg: Dude, you're dead. Stop posting.

See? More Western imperialist lies!

RexTalionis: Aren't you dead?

Nope, I am a TFer.

/so this is what hell looks like.
//thanks again, anonymous sponsor!
///not ronery anymore...at least for a month.

Kim Jong-il: RexTalionis: Aren't you dead?

Nope, I am a TFer.

/so this is what hell looks like.
//thanks again, anonymous sponsor!
///not ronery anymore...at least for a month.

Hey, since you're not dead, could you stop pointing all that artillery at Seoul, at least until my brother moves back to Canada? Thanks, broseph.

A Dark Evil Omen: Kim Jong-il: RexTalionis: Aren't you dead?

Nope, I am a TFer.

/so this is what hell looks like.
//thanks again, anonymous sponsor!
///not ronery anymore...at least for a month.

Hey, since you're not dead, could you stop pointing all that artillery at Seoul, at least until my brother moves back to Canada? Thanks, broseph.

Nope, China just said no. Call Hu Jintao. He isn't dead.