Not journalists subby journals. The primary peer-reviewed scientific literature. This article has nothing to do with media bullshiat but a government SAB trying to censor the actual literature out of fear that the data could be used for bio-terrorism, which is a hell of a lot worse. Complete farking bullshiat. There's a lot of scientific data that gets published everyday that could be used for nefarious purposes if someone was so inclined.

This strain is being stored just down the hall from me.

/CSB

Snitches get stitches.

Waitaminute, WTF? What kind of idiot decides "Hey, I know. Let's take this legitimately dangerous virus that doesn't really transfer from person-to-person much and make it much easier to transfer between people."

Dreamy LaTwitch: Waitaminute, WTF? What kind of idiot decides "Hey, I know. Let's take this legitimately dangerous virus that doesn't really transfer from person-to-person much and make it much easier to transfer between people."

It won't make much of a weapon if it's not communicable, now will it?

The walkin dude is coming.

/my life for you!

All hail the Crimson King.

Dreamy LaTwitch: Waitaminute, WTF? What kind of idiot decides "Hey, I know. Let's take this legitimately dangerous virus that doesn't really transfer from person-to-person much and make it much easier to transfer between people."

The question is more "I wonder if there's actually any chance bird flu could be made into anything dangerous", which has been a major question for years now.

Censorship... What a fantastic solution to a problem that should never have existed in the first place!

/My favorite phrase this week.
/James May at his most succinct.
/Would science please stop trying to kill us and get back to working on that "Cancer" thing.

What happens if the captain trips?

way south: Censorship... What a fantastic solution to a problem that should never have existed in the first place!

/My favorite phrase this week.
/James May at his most succinct.
/Would science please stop trying to kill us and get back to working on that "Cancer" thing.

Screw cancer, where ma Lightspeed you slackers??!??

M-O-O-N spells trouble.

Dreamy LaTwitch: Waitaminute, WTF? What kind of idiot decides "Hey, I know. Let's take this legitimately dangerous virus that doesn't really transfer from person-to-person much and make it much easier to transfer between people."

Identifying potential genetic substitutions in the lab that increase person-to-person transmission allows us to then monitor for those in the naturally circulating population of H1N1 strains. Of course these may not be the ONLY set of substitutions that will increase the effectiveness of transmission, but at least it is something. The flu virus genome is small and pretty easy to quickly sequence, so monitoring it effectively is an area where the new sequencing technologies have really come in handy.

Some of the people I work with have done bioinformatics related work on geo-monitoring of flu using phylogenetic techniques to see how populations evolve in time and space. I know some other people involved with various monitoring efforts as well, especially in wild sea birds. The more data we have to work with the better our monitoring can be, which lets us react that much quicker to potentially pandemic strains.

way south: /Would science please stop trying to kill us and get back to working on that "Cancer" thing.

Plenty of resources are already dedicated to cancer research, which is why survival rates, early detection technologies, and new treatments are constantly getting better for a broad spectrum of cancers. There is a lot of other shiat out there to work on too, including studying and accumulating knowledge just for the sake of accumulating knowledge.

Just like the media blackout of coverage on NDAA and SOPA. Secondary media and blogs are the only entities covering both.

Fourth estate my ass.

This research will be made available to other scientist, and other countries. It will be so out there, everywhere. I can't imagine if the wrong people wanted it, they still couldn't get it. The whole NEWs cover up of it is just window-dressing to make us potential victims feels a bit safe and secure.

Maybe if should be stated that if this strain ever shows up on the outside, the scientist who thought they had to go there, will be put into a closed environment with their invention.... I'm all for science, but this was so reckless and stupid.

Having just read "The Great Influenza", may I just say

OHMYFRAKKINGGAWD WE'RE ALL GONNA DIIIIEEEEEEEEEEE!

/seriously. read that book. it is the scariest thing I've ever read

Happy Hours: ELF Radio: All hail the Crimson King.

The Black Queen chants the funeral march
The cracked brass bells will ring

I understand that larks' tongues in aspic are better than chicken soup for this.

entropic_existence: There is a lot of other shiat out there to work on too, including studying and accumulating knowledge just for the sake of accumulating knowledge.

I agree there is alot of stuff to be done (and the "Cure cancer" remark was mostly in jest) but science just for the sake of science is wasteful.
Especially when you are dealing with deadly globe ending things like flu viruses or dicking around trying to make black holes. You need to have some kind of end game in sight rather than risking all of humanity so you can fill out reports.

To that end, censorship is a necessary evil... albeit a futile one.

/The only thing that wont escape Pandora's box is hope.
/They keep that locked away tight.

Call me chicken but I think I could have gone the rest of my life without knowing about this lab-made virus.



/buk buk

Olympus Mons: Maybe if should be stated that if this strain ever shows up on the outside, the scientist who thought they had to go there, will be put into a closed environment with their invention.... I'm all for science, but this was so reckless and stupid.

No it wasn't reckless and stupid. There are lots of pathogens out there that are both transmissible and deadly. That isn't even the real hard part of identifying a good bio-terror weapon. Actually weaponizing a pathogen is incredibly difficult.

Also the research was actually done specifically at the request of the US government for the monitoring reasons I outlined in my previous post. This is incredibly valuable information to have from a monitoring and prevention standpoint. People who immediately jump to the "ZOMG zombie apocalypse!" type reactions are more of a problem than bio-terrorists.

way south: but science just for the sake of science is wasteful.

No, it really isn't. For one thing, accumulating knowledge is a good thing in and of itself. Secondly targeted and directed research doesn't actually have a higher pay-off in terms of future benefits than does curiosity-driven research. Basic research provides the foundation on which later directed-driven research often depends and you can't discount serendipity. Fleming's discovery of penicillin being probably the most well known example but there are tons more, and not just in the life sciences.

way south: Especially when you are dealing with deadly globe ending things like flu viruses or dicking around trying to make black holes. You need to have some kind of end game in sight rather than risking all of humanity so you can fill out reports.

Hyperbole like this is one of the reasons I despair at the future of scientific funding in western civilization. The LHC isn't "dicking around trying to make black holes" for instance and we study deadly viruses so that we are prepared for potential future pandemics (which aren't world ending). This specific research was done for very good reasons, and by specific request of US government institutions so that we would know what sorts of things to look for in potentially pandemic H1N1 flu strains so we could quickly react to prevent pandemics. Despite what people may think there aren't crazy or totally oblivious scientists sitting around in labs dicking around with insane things that could wipe out human civilization just for the fun of it.

Quiefenburger: entropic_existence: Basic research provides the foundation on which later directed-driven research often depends and you can't discount serendipity.

I bet you're a peach at cocktail parties.

Not exactly a topic that typically comes up at parties except ones with fellow scientists.

mitEj: is this the strain that they reverse engineered to be similar the the 1918 strain that instigated cytokine storms in healthy immune systems ?

No. That was, IIRC, a case where they actually isolated and "resurrected" the 1918 flu from bodies buried in the permafrost. In this case they took the H1N1 flu and started tinkering to see what changes would be necessary to make it more transmissible from human to human.

Quiefenburger: entropic_existence: Basic research provides the foundation on which later directed-driven research often depends and you can't discount serendipity.

I bet you're a peach at cocktail parties.

Really? Someone shows insight and intelligence, and you call them boring? I'm a lot of fun at parties, provided you don't bring up energy research or analytical chemistry, though if you did I would assume you actually enjoyed that conversation.

/Wecome to Fark, I know....

entropic_existence: Quiefenburger: entropic_existence: Basic research provides the foundation on which later directed-driven research often depends and you can't discount serendipity.

I bet you're a peach at cocktail parties.

Not exactly a topic that typically comes up at parties except ones with fellow scientists.

mitEj: is this the strain that they reverse engineered to be similar the the 1918 strain that instigated cytokine storms in healthy immune systems ?

No. That was, IIRC, a case where they actually isolated and "resurrected" the 1918 flu from bodies buried in the permafrost. In this case they took the H1N1 flu and started tinkering to see what changes would be necessary to make it more transmissible from human to human.

Next they can combine the deadliest elements of various flu's with the most virulent elements! You know for the Lulz; The boys can see just how farked up and scary they can make things.

BigBooper: Next they can combine the deadliest elements of various flu's with the most virulent elements! You know for the Lulz; The boys can see just how farked up and scary they can make things.

If only we could get research grants to be mad scientists...

Of course one of the inbuilt safeguards with this sort of research is that there tends to be a natural trade-off between virulence and transmissability. Even in the lab it may be difficult to optimize both effectively. Killing your host too quickly tends to limit how many additional people you can spread to.

Dreamy LaTwitch: Waitaminute, WTF? What kind of idiot decides "Hey, I know. Let's take this legitimately dangerous virus that doesn't really transfer from person-to-person much and make it much easier to transfer between people."

It's not a matter of making it more transmissible. It's a matter of finding out what makes it more transmissible so they better understand the threat posed by natural mutations.

entropic_existence: BigBooper: Next they can combine the deadliest elements of various flu's with the most virulent elements! You know for the Lulz; The boys can see just how farked up and scary they can make things.

If only we could get research grants to be mad scientists...

Of course one of the inbuilt safeguards with this sort of research is that there tends to be a natural trade-off between virulence and transmissability. Even in the lab it may be difficult to optimize both effectively. Killing your host too quickly tends to limit how many additional people you can spread to.


I'm sure they'll keep at it so that they can create an early and extended period of tranmissability, followed by a short sharp period of extreme virulence.

Who the fark decided to even do something like that? And who the fark approved and funded it?

Loren: Dreamy LaTwitch: Waitaminute, WTF? What kind of idiot decides "Hey, I know. Let's take this legitimately dangerous virus that doesn't really transfer from person-to-person much and make it much easier to transfer between people."

It's not a matter of making it more transmissible. It's a matter of finding out what makes it more transmissible so they better understand the threat posed by natural mutations.

So to investigate it, they caused the thing to happen that they're afraid of happening. That seems smart.

Dictatorial_Flair: Loren: Dreamy LaTwitch: Waitaminute, WTF? What kind of idiot decides "Hey, I know. Let's take this legitimately dangerous virus that doesn't really transfer from person-to-person much and make it much easier to transfer between people."

It's not a matter of making it more transmissible. It's a matter of finding out what makes it more transmissible so they better understand the threat posed by natural mutations.

So to investigate it, they caused the thing to happen that they're afraid of happening. That seems smart.

If you know all of your enemy's available moves, you can determine the best counter move for every possibility.

It is better to be able to say "This could happen, and we can fix it by doing this" than say "Uhh, something could happen, but we don't know how to fix it if it does"

Guelph35: If you know all of your enemy's available moves, you can determine the best counter move for every possibility.

It is better to be able to say "This could happen, and we can fix it by doing this" than say "Uhh, something could happen, but we don't know how to fix it if it does"

I seriously doubt they found all of the possible mutations that could make it more communicable. I also doubt they managed to find a counter to all of the mods they made before publishing the study. They essentially created a bioweapon in the name of maybe being able to respond if somebody creates the same bioweapon. If somebody was able to "sneak" weaponized anthrax out of a government lab ten years ago, I imagine somebody nefarious could get their hands on this shiat.

I see the reasoning behind doing it, I just think the reasoning is kind of short-sighted.

Dictatorial_Flair: So to investigate it, they caused the thing to happen that they're afraid of happening. That seems smart.

The US government requested it specifically, and two different labs did the research. It was done because no one knew what it would take to make transmission easier, so we had no idea what sorts of things to be on the lookout for in wild strains of the virus. And monitoring for early detection is a big deal in influenza research and pandemic prevention.

This was a big deal because we assumed it would actually take many more mutations than what it did. Now that doesn't mean the set of mutations produced in the lab was the only solution to the problem, but it is A solution and now people can be on the lookout.

So no it wasn't stupid, and it isn't dangerous. The lab safety protocols that are followed today means that this accidentally being released is near zero.

Dictatorial_Flair: They essentially created a bioweapon in the name of maybe being able to respond if somebody creates the same bioweapon.

They didn't create a bio-weapon. This is pure unadulterated hyperbole. They created a strain that is human-to-human transmissible. We don't actually know how transmissible, just more transmissible than it was currently which was, as far as we know, basically zero.

It takes a hell of a lot more than just having a transmissible and virulent pathogen to have a bioweapon.

There is still considerable controversy over whether the anthrax mailings were actually weaponized (the initial reports of silica content are being debated). It would actually be WAY easier to get your hands on a nasty anthrax strain currently then it would be to reverse engineer this flu strain even if you had the data. And even then it isn't weaponized. That involves lots of chemistry to make some sort of appropriate delivery mechanism.

Dictatorial_Flair: Guelph35: If you know all of your enemy's available moves, you can determine the best counter move for every possibility.

It is better to be able to say "This could happen, and we can fix it by doing this" than say "Uhh, something could happen, but we don't know how to fix it if it does"

I seriously doubt they found all of the possible mutations that could make it more communicable. I also doubt they managed to find a counter to all of the mods they made before publishing the study. They essentially created a bioweapon in the name of maybe being able to respond if somebody creates the same bioweapon. If somebody was able to "sneak" weaponized anthrax out of a government lab ten years ago, I imagine somebody nefarious could get their hands on this shiat.

I see the reasoning behind doing it, I just think the reasoning is kind of short-sighted.

I'm pretty sure they have a hotline and a big red "fire ze missiles"/sterilization button for unfortunate situations.

entropic_existence: The US government requested it specifically, and two different labs did the research. It was done because no one knew what it would take to make transmission easier, so we had no idea what sorts of things to be on the lookout for in wild strains of the virus. And monitoring for early detection is a big deal in influenza research and pandemic prevention.

A huge benefit I could see is that they'd have immediate suspicions if they saw such a setup elsewhere. Like during a raid on a terrorist compound or something.
Of course, they'd know right away that there was something going on, but this adds another one to the list of "they were making really deadly shiat" things to look out for

tomcatadam: Dictatorial_Flair: Guelph35: If you know all of your enemy's available moves, you can determine the best counter move for every possibility.

It is better to be able to say "This could happen, and we can fix it by doing this" than say "Uhh, something could happen, but we don't know how to fix it if it does"

I seriously doubt they found all of the possible mutations that could make it more communicable. I also doubt they managed to find a counter to all of the mods they made before publishing the study. They essentially created a bioweapon in the name of maybe being able to respond if somebody creates the same bioweapon. If somebody was able to "sneak" weaponized anthrax out of a government lab ten years ago, I imagine somebody nefarious could get their hands on this shiat.

I see the reasoning behind doing it, I just think the reasoning is kind of short-sighted.

I'm pretty sure they have a hotline and a big red "fire ze missiles"/sterilization button for unfortunate situations.

Actually one of the five scientists has to insert his key into the computer locks on the fourth or fifth levels.

/got any squeeze?

tomcatadam: A huge benefit I could see is that they'd have immediate suspicions if they saw such a setup elsewhere. Like during a raid on a terrorist compound or something.
Of course, they'd know right away that there was something going on, but this adds another one to the list of "they were making really deadly shiat" things to look out for

Yeah, that's a good benefit too. To be honest I'm a little doubtful that anyone wanting to commit bio-terrorism right now would take this sort of approach. The paper obviously hasn't been published so I don't know all the details but it is entirely likely that while they introduced mutations that made it transmissible between human cell lines or between mammals it may have also compromised its virulence. Flu also mutates really quickly in wild populations so a lot of the time you see a lot higher virulence early in a pandemic compared to later on when what is being passed around is something like the 3 billionth generation of virus and it has ameliorated to its host. The guys that spread the most in terms of transmission also tend to make you less sick. You want a fairly low grade infection going for wide spread. That way you have people walking around coughing and sneezing and going to work, not in the hospital where there are good protocols for quarantine.

And of course if you are interested in bioterrorism you want shock value more than anything. You could go out today and get some Giardia intestinalis and dump it in unprotected rural water supplies and you would get a lot of people sick in small town america. Hell it is trivial to get your hands on or make some really nasty enteropathogenic strains of E. coli and introduce that into the food or water supply. We've seen how that happens naturally all on its own, a deliberate contamination would be worse.

The likelihood of a natural pandemic outbreak of H5N1 is probably a good million times more likely than a bio-terror event. Which is why research like this is so helpful. And why it was specifically requested in the first place.

entropic_existence: They didn't create a bio-weapon. This is pure unadulterated hyperbole. They created a strain that is human-to-human transmissible. We don't actually know how transmissible, just more transmissible than it was currently which was, as far as we know, basically zero.

It takes a hell of a lot more than just having a transmissible and virulent pathogen to have a bioweapon.

There is still considerable controversy over whether the anthrax mailings were actually weaponized (the initial reports of silica content are being debated). It would actually be WAY easier to get your hands on a nasty anthrax strain currently then it would be to reverse engineer this flu strain even if you had the data. And even then it isn't weaponized. That involves lots of chemistry to make some sort of appropriate delivery mechanism.

Oh fine. I'll stop screaming doom and stocking the shelter. Why do you have to ruin everything that's fun?

I wonder if the fact that I've been getting flu vaccinations for the last ten years will help at all if this version of bird flu starts murdering people left and right.

Dictatorial_Flair: I wonder if the fact that I've been getting flu vaccinations for the last ten years will help at all if this version of bird flu starts murdering people left and right.

Probably not

Obligatory:

entropic_existence: Dictatorial_Flair: I wonder if the fact that I've been getting flu vaccinations for the last ten years will help at all if this version of bird flu starts murdering people left and right.

Probably not

Yeah, probably not.