is there some sort of religious reason for making a woman sit in the back of a bus? I don't understand what this has to do with orthodox judasim.

Jewish peoples problems.

Hasidim but I don't believe em.

Weaver95: is there some sort of religious reason for making a woman sit in the back of a bus? I don't understand what this has to do with orthodox judasim.

Jewish men are afraid of women, so they do their best to stack the deck in their favor.

itazurakko: It's only a certain small slice of the Orthodox. Those who think it's necessary, the usual justification is they can't pray or read prayer books while looking at women (same reason there's dividers in synagogues, which are designed for praying) and they want to be able to pray and read prayer books on the bus too, because time's a wastin', might as well be productive, and so... women in the back.

Dude should probably not spend a half hour in a bus doorway, then. Heh.

good for her.

shivashakti: itazurakko: It's only a certain small slice of the Orthodox. Those who think it's necessary, the usual justification is they can't pray or read prayer books while looking at women (same reason there's dividers in synagogues, which are designed for praying) and they want to be able to pray and read prayer books on the bus too, because time's a wastin', might as well be productive, and so... women in the back.

This has been going on for a quite a while, and yeah, it's controversial. There's certain routes that are "known" by the community to be these "extra kosher" buses (you can google "mehadrin lines" or "mehadrin bus" if you want to read various commentary) but as far as I know now, and TFA seems to agree, they can't officially segregate a bus, it has to be voluntary. Which doesn't avoid the conflict, because you can have a bunch of people who get on first all voluntarily split up and then someone else gets on, etc.

The obvious answer is "get your own line if you want it split" but the thing is, the Egged bus company has a monopoly there, they can't do that.

I think there's a town in New York state in a very strongly Orthodox community that has this issue. However, it cannot be legally enforced because it's a city bus or something like that.

Probably Kiryas Joel or Monsey.

Ok I live in the heart of one of the most religious parts of Jerusalem, which means I basically live in what is probably the most ultra-orthodox part of the world:

The vast majority of us have nothing to do with this man. Even the man who is considered to be the Litvish (meaning, non-Chassidic, about half of the Ultra-Orthodox world) Posek HaDor (meaning the leading scholar of the generation in terms of Jewish Law) ruled last week that it was absolutely forbidden to enforce such things on public buses (and I believe any public space but I could be wrong on the latter).

As you can read in this article, it was one man who was acting up because of it, while the rest of the people on the bus were complaining about it and not happy about the delay, not the fact that this woman was sitting where she was sitting.

Also, the reason the policeman told her to go to the back was not because it's the law, it was just to calm the other guy and to defuse the situation rather than to keep it like this.


The overwhelming majority of us want nothing to do with the handful of extremists who behave like this. And they really are a handful of extremists, the sikrim are probably 30-40 at most where I live, but they make a LOT of noise.



Oh and on a last note, on the yartzeit of Rochel Imeinu, me and four other guys sat in the front of the bus when we were coming back from her Kever in Beth Lechem. We were quickly told by a group of women to go to the back of the bus, as the front was the women's section. Yes, they wanted us to move and "segregate" that bus. We complied.

I personally have no problem using the train and non-"segregated" buses, as does 99% of the Ultra-Orthodox world.

There is a separation of sex in Judaism, but we're not Saudi Arabia either, and any Jew who tries to make us go in the direction is going against Torah.

Weaver95: is there some sort of religious reason for making a woman sit in the back of a bus? I don't understand what this has to do with orthodox judasim.

In Judaism we do enforce a certain separation of sexes, more or less rigorous depending on how observant you are. There's always been such a thing.

The place where the women sit is irrelevant. Could be at the front, could be at the back, really. I've seen buses where it's women in front, families in the middle and men at the end, and vice-versa.

I do not believe that those rules should be enforced on public buses, what happens on private buses is none of my business (or anyone else's) and neither do the majority of the Orthodox world.

itazurakko: It's only a certain small slice of the Orthodox. Those who think it's necessary, the usual justification is they can't pray or read prayer books while looking at women (same reason there's dividers in synagogues, which are designed for praying) and they want to be able to pray and read prayer books on the bus too, because time's a wastin', might as well be productive, and so... women in the back.

While it's true that you generally cannot pray certain prayers if there are women around (unless there's no way around it), there is absolutely no issur to studying when women are present.

Also these people would no be praying on the bus.

Tatsuma: Ok I live in the heart of one of the most religious parts of Jerusalem, which means I basically live in what is probably the most ultra-orthodox part of the world:

The vast majority of us have nothing to do with this man. Even the man who is considered to be the Litvish (meaning, non-Chassidic, about half of the Ultra-Orthodox world) Posek HaDor (meaning the leading scholar of the generation in terms of Jewish Law) ruled last week that it was absolutely forbidden to enforce such things on public buses (and I believe any public space but I could be wrong on the latter).

As you can read in this article, it was one man who was acting up because of it, while the rest of the people on the bus were complaining about it and not happy about the delay, not the fact that this woman was sitting where she was sitting.

Also, the reason the policeman told her to go to the back was not because it's the law, it was just to calm the other guy and to defuse the situation rather than to keep it like this.


The overwhelming majority of us want nothing to do with the handful of extremists who behave like this. And they really are a handful of extremists, the sikrim are probably 30-40 at most where I live, but they make a LOT of noise.



Oh and on a last note, on the yartzeit of Rochel Imeinu, me and four other guys sat in the front of the bus when we were coming back from her Kever in Beth Lechem. We were quickly told by a group of women to go to the back of the bus, as the front was the women's section. Yes, they wanted us to move and "segregate" that bus. We complied.

I personally have no problem using the train and non-"segregated" buses, as does 99% of the Ultra-Orthodox world.

There is a separation of sex in Judaism, but we're not Saudi Arabia either, and any Jew who tries to make us go in the direction is going against Torah.

Gotta be careful with wisdom like that. You'll ruin your reputation.

Do you know what would REALLY solve this problem? Put the dumb farktards who dont want to be with women in the back of the bus.

TADA problem solved!!
When your religion allows you to be an asshole to other people, well fark you are your POS religion.

AbbeySomeone: SilentStrider: good for her.

Yeah this and f*ck whatever religious zealot that tried to tell her what to do.

I hope the bus was filled with lawyers so they can each bill that guy half an hour of billable time at their standard rates. That could get expensive quickly.

itazurakko: namatad: Do you know what would REALLY solve this problem? Put the dumb farktards who dont want to be with women in the back of the bus.

TADA problem solved!!
When your religion allows you to be an asshole to other people, well fark you are your POS religion.

Problem is, they'd have the wimmin in front.

If they reversed direction of the back seats, it'd work. Also there's other buses that have segregated across the aisle (so, left for men, right for women, divider down the middle). This has come up in threads about this elsewhere, already. It's not a new topic by ANY means, nor is this the only place it's come up.

But reversed seats would mean a non-standard bus, so cost extra money. Plus I think the whole "back of the bus" thing is sensitive in the US, but the main issue is separation (that and the idea of having to pay at the front, get off, then re-board from the back, which granted also happened in the Jim Crow South).

Personally I get pukey riding backwards on the train, I always pick the forward facing seats (though on trains I use sometimes you can flip the seat direction) if possible, else I'd rather stand really.

Talk about missing the point.

Tatsuma:

Oh and on a last note, on the yartzeit of Rochel Imeinu, me and four other guys sat in the front of the bus when we were coming back from her Kever in Beth Lechem. We were quickly told by a group of women to go to the back of the bus, as the front was the women's section. Yes, they wanted us to move and "segregate" that bus. We complied.


What the what of what? Maybe you could explain that in english what a yartzeit of Rochel etc etc is because I only got Beth Lechem which would be "Bethlehem" in the pronounciation here.

itazurakko: But you know what? While it's nice to know that...

No offense, but I actually live here, I'm an ultra-Orthodox Jew, everyone around me is. This story might not be all about me (and it isn't), but also all of this just might possibly mean that I have an insight into our own society, our own views and our own neighborhood. More than what you read off the random blog or article from the other side of the world, seeing as you are neither in Israel or an Orthodox Jew (or Jewish, for that matter).

namatad: Do you know what would REALLY solve this problem? Put the dumb farktards who dont want to be with women in the back of the bus.

As I said, this happens as well.

itazurakko: I'd like to see some cites for any actual "mehadrin" bus (accepted as such by the people riding it) that has the women at the front.

Every instance I've ever seen reference to has always had women at the back.

I've BEEN on those.

See the difference between what you read on the internet, and what you live in your own life, and how that might be more valuable in terms of inside and actual knowledge of what's actually happening around here?

MadSkillz: What the what of what? Maybe you could explain that in english what a yartzeit of Rochel etc etc is because I only got Beth Lechem which would be "Bethlehem" in the pronounciation here.

On the anniversary celebrating the life of the Biblical Matriarch Rachel, me and four men lowered ourselves on plastic-made benches at the beginning of a motorized public transport vehicule when we were coming back from her resting place in Bethlehem. With speed, we were told by a group of female persuasion to go and sit at the end of the motorized public transport vehicule, as the beginning of said vehicule was in fact the portion designated for those of a female persuasions. Indeed, they desired for us to move our physical bodies in order to separate the bus according to gender. We ran to avoid getting cooties from them.

namatad: Do you know what would REALLY solve this problem?

Glass parking lot...

itazurakko: You're not the only frum Jew on the internet. Don't let it get to your head.

And don't let it get to your head that reading a few wikipedia pages and a few articles on ynet and haaretz makes you a specialist of Jewish affairs from halfway around the world.

Especially when discussing with people who are, and actually live there, and speak the language. Or make blatant errors in your descriptions of what is happening or why we do what we do.

By the way, not only was your 'usual justification' wrong in the details on almost everything, but it's not even the 'usual justification'.

Oh yeah and one reason why it's good to actually be part of a community and know what you are talking about, rather than just reading some articles on the net and discussing it?

A few days ago in Meah Shearim there was a protest against an Egged bus, there were protesters who stopped it from going through the neighborhood. It was described by ynet and haaretz as a protest against the fact it's not a segregated bus.

Well that's completely false. The protest is that those buses go through the neighborhood in the middle of rush hour really fast, at there same time when there are literally hundreds of children in the cramped streets, that there have been very serious accidents in the past and that ch"vs people want to avoid any accident especially for the children, that Egged had negotiated a deal with them, and that they immediately reneged on the deal and keep going through the neighborhood really fast rather than taking an extra 5-10 minutes to go outside of the neighborhood during those hours, in order not to endanger the children.

That's why people were protesting. Which you wouldn't know if you only read the internet. In English at least.

itazurakko: zuboshi ka...

hachelev edom ochel dag.

/hapara tzochech.

itazurakko: Except that was on the internet. In English. With arguments. I read them too.

I wasn't talking specifically about you. That was a general you. And please where did you read about that? Because the actual reason wasn't mentioned in Haaretz YNet or IsraelHaYom.

itazurakko: I don't claim to be an authority on anything.

I'm sorry but on the subject of Orthodox Jewry, you certainly do love to come out of your way and present things as if you really had a grasp. Which you clearly do not. Better than most people here? Yes, sure.

Actual grasp and insight? Sorry, but no. Far from it, as demonstrated with this:

itazurakko: Those who think it's necessary, the usual justification is they can't pray or read prayer books while looking at women (same reason there's dividers in synagogues, which are designed for praying) and they want to be able to pray and read prayer books on the bus too, because time's a wastin', might as well be productive, and so... women in the back.

Again, this is not a bad thing. We have a very complex and dynamic world and you really really need not only know a lot to be able to make sense of it, but really live with us to get it. You don't. It's fine.

itazurakko: And meanwhile, using jargon words and foreign words that have a normal standard English translation used all over the place when your own first language is English, on a majority English board that is not expected to know the jargon, ends up making you look like a weeaboo. Just sayin'.

For things like Litvak Posek HaDor, there are no actual translation that truly give their meaning over, which is why I wrote them as they are with the explanations.

As for using 'jargon' when discussing a very precise subject, I can't wait for you to stumble into food threads:

"Gee, I mean stop calling it sushi it's cold fish, speak american! Bouillabaisse?! IT'S FARKING FISH SOUP"

I have a feeling that Tatsuma is about to pronounce itazurakko to be not Jewish enough or something.

Feb 2007 Women in Israel are fighting a Rosa Parks-style campaign for the right to sit in the front of buses. Israeli Taliban threaten and beat women who refuse (130)

Feb 2007 Woman refuses to move to the back of the bus, Supreme Court to review segregated bus policy (162)

Tatsuma: MadSkillz: What the what of what? Maybe you could explain that in english what a yartzeit of Rochel etc etc is because I only got Beth Lechem which would be "Bethlehem" in the pronounciation here.

On the anniversary celebrating the life of the Biblical Matriarch Rachel, me and four men lowered ourselves on plastic-made benches at the beginning of a motorized public transport vehicule when we were coming back from her resting place in Bethlehem. With speed, we were told by a group of female persuasion to go and sit at the end of the motorized public transport vehicule, as the beginning of said vehicule was in fact the portion designated for those of a female persuasions. Indeed, they desired for us to move our physical bodies in order to separate the bus according to gender. We ran to avoid getting cooties from them.

Okay I only asked for a translation of the items you so pretentiously posted in Hebrew (knowing none of us knew what a yartzeit was). You then proceeded to act like a complete farking ass. Apologize.

MadSkillz: Tatsuma: MadSkillz: What the what of what? Maybe you could explain that in english what a yartzeit of Rochel etc etc is because I only got Beth Lechem which would be "Bethlehem" in the pronounciation here.

On the anniversary celebrating the life of the Biblical Matriarch Rachel, me and four men lowered ourselves on plastic-made benches at the beginning of a motorized public transport vehicule when we were coming back from her resting place in Bethlehem. With speed, we were told by a group of female persuasion to go and sit at the end of the motorized public transport vehicule, as the beginning of said vehicule was in fact the portion designated for those of a female persuasions. Indeed, they desired for us to move our physical bodies in order to separate the bus according to gender. We ran to avoid getting cooties from them.

Okay I only asked for a translation of the items you so pretentiously posted in Hebrew (knowing none of us knew what a yartzeit was). You then proceeded to act like a complete farking ass. Apologize.

Ha, apologies from Tatsuma. Don't hold your breath.

MadSkillz: Okay I only asked for a translation of the items you so pretentiously posted in Hebrew (knowing none of us knew what a yartzeit was). You then proceeded to act like a complete farking ass. Apologize.

Oh come on, you really didn't get I was joking around? I translated the actual parts that would have needed translation, but decided to also have fun with it.

The part where I translated 'we complied' to 'we ran to avoid getting cooties from them' wasn't clear enough to show that?

I mean, I'm sorry you took it the wrong way, but I was in no way trying to insult you. Seriously, the cooties part, or description of the bus, didn't strike you as me joking around rather than making fun of you? seriously?

/and guess what, it wasn't 'pretentiously in Hebrew' even if I knew what most of you are not saying, this is literally how I speak all day long, and so does everyone around me, so unless I turn it off consciously that's how i'm gonna sound. let's not pretend that this is anything. mamash i've been vorting like a shuckling yekke by this place for years, it's davka not a chiddush.

Tatsuma: MadSkillz: Okay I only asked for a translation of the items you so pretentiously posted in Hebrew (knowing none of us knew what a yartzeit was). You then proceeded to act like a complete farking ass. Apologize.

Oh come on, you really didn't get I was joking around? I translated the actual parts that would have needed translation, but decided to also have fun with it.

The part where I translated 'we complied' to 'we ran to avoid getting cooties from them' wasn't clear enough to show that?

No, see I understood that. I didn't understand the stuff posted in Hebrew/Yiddish and had a curiousity about it from a sociological perspective. I know you've embraced an insular culture with some distinct flavours of racism and xenophobia, but when you come on here and 'talk' like that, you can expect significant blowback.

MadSkillz: I know you've embraced an insular culture with some distinct flavours of racism and xenophobia

So not only you were completely humorless and got offended by a clearly harmless joke, but then you proceed to describe me as a quaint sociological topic to study, as well as accusing me of racism and xenophobia?

And you asked me to apologize?

Welp, I guess people do change.

FTFA: Egged bus 451

The bus got egged? Huh?

Bucky Katt: The bus got egged? Huh?

Egged is the name of the company that controls all the buses in Israel. It has a pretty socialist monopoly going on. Which would confuse lots of GOP leaders, I guess.

Just to show how violent, rude and dangerous those 'segregated buses' are to women, and how they are at risk of violence, a JPost contributor has been sitting at the front of one of those buses for weeks now, risking her life every day.

Here's the article she wrote about it

No news from the front of the bus
By ESTHER SCHEINER
12/12/2011 22:14

Sitting at the front of a 'mehadrin' bus was the ultimate anti-climax: No violence, no rude comments and no harassment.

I've been freedom-riding the No. 418 "Mehadrin" bus between Ramat Beit Shemesh and Jerusalem for a few weeks, and here's what's been happening to me: nothing. I get on, pay my fare, sit down in the front of the bus, and then - that's it.

I haven't encountered one instance of physical violence, verbal threats or otherwise obnoxious harassment. There has been an occasional "Mehadrin!" muttered quietly by some men, but they gave up quickly when I ignored them. One man told me I was supposed to move to the back, as per the custom, but when I asked him if he could read the sign which states that riders can sit wherever they choose, he said, "I'm just telling you that this is the custom, you can do whatever you want."

One bearded, black-coated man announced that women should move to the back, and when a secular-looking, jeans-wearing woman challenged him by asking if that was the law, he said, "No, but I am requesting that you do it." We women stayed in our seats and didn't hear another word from him or anyone else.

Once a man asked the bus driver to tell the women to move to the back, which I thought was a nice touch, as I don't think it is modest for a man to begin a conversation with a random woman on a bus, even to discuss seating arrangements. For the record, the driver said in response: "I don't know anything about this."

On the 417, the non-segregated bus which essentially covers the same route as the 418, the passengers are almost all ultra-Orthodox. It is accepted practice that if two sets of seats are each half-occupied, with one man at each window seat, women riders will not sit down next to a man, but will instead politely ask one man to move next to the other man to free up seats for women (or vice-versa, with a male rider asking a female rider to move).

In almost all cases, when a man and woman are sitting next to each other, they appear to be married (although nobody asks to see their ketubah, or marriage contract). There are fewer screaming babies on the regular bus because families sit together and a man can hold his baby instead of forcing his wife to juggle an infant and a toddler.

Most of the men on the 417 study, work on their laptops or chat with the men sitting next to them during the ride. I have yet to see any inappropriateness borne of the mixed-sex environment. Everyone on the 417 bus has been exceedingly polite and modest. What behaviors are so offensive that a segregated bus is needed to save passengers from sin?

I AM offended that a public bus would discriminate against women, when there is no reason, ruling, or precedent for the practice in Jewish or secular law. I respect the men who avoid sitting down right next to me, to prevent accidental touching, but I do not understand why my mere presence in a nearby seat bothers a man. He has the option of closing his eyes or looking away, just as he may do when he walks on a sidewalk or goes to the bank. Actually, on a bus it is fairly easy to keep your eyes on a holy book.

For the record, I am a descendent of a Hassidic family and value the modesty practiced in the private lives of many communities in Jerusalem and Ramat Beit Shemesh. I'm an Orthodox Jew and I dress accordingly, in a skirt that covers my knees and a shirt that covers my elbows and collarbone and a kerchief that covers all my hair. The reports of violence and intimidation against women who are exercising their legal right to sit in the front of the bus horrified me, and that is what prompted me to become a freedom rider.

Relegating women to the back of the bus, burka-wearing, and the disappearance of images of women and even young girls from newspapers are things that can quickly become customary in a community that treasures traditions. This is why we must speak up and make it clear that these things were not part of the Judaism of our grandparents.

Since there is a lack of data on how many women sit in the front on "segregated" buses without facing any antagonism, we have no way of determining whether the reported violence is typical or atypical.

While I would rather not hear any grumbling or helpful suggestions when I choose a seat on a bus, I can't say I have faced any unpleasantness at all, so I conclude that the violent episodes were very rare, and do not represent the reactions of the vast majority of men who choose to ride on a "segregated" bus. Hilary Clinton can now focus on women's rights in Saudi Arabia; we are doing just fine here!

There is no reason for incidents like this to become internationally known stories. This is just ridiculous.

Tatsuma: There is no reason for incidents like this to become internationally known stories. This is just ridiculous.

Except that they happen. Apparently, because..

Tatsuma: There is a separation of sex in Judaism

Tatsuma: The place where the women sit is irrelevant. Could be at the front, could be at the back, really. I've seen buses where it's women in front, families in the middle and men at the end, and vice-versa.

Tatsuma: In Judaism we do enforce a certain separation of sexes, more or less rigorous depending on how observant you are. There's always been such a thing.

People who act like primitives should be shamed for it. I've done it, and when I have, I should have been shamed. And was. Barbarity shouldn't be excused because of tradition.