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(Forbes)   Apple Brings Jobs to Texas. Can't you just leave the poor guy in the grave?   (forbes.com) divider line 55
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4356 clicks; posted to Business » on 17 Dec 2011 at 10:27 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2011-12-17 07:07:56 PM
More like Samsung brought more jobs to Texas.
 
2011-12-17 07:41:14 PM
lh4.googleusercontent.com
 
2011-12-17 08:09:18 PM
Maybe they are considering that since Steve Jobs was a Buddhist that they may want to provide the chance for him to come back and live with a level of comfort that approaches human.
 
2011-12-17 09:37:18 PM
That's a poorly planned farewell tour.
 
2011-12-17 10:31:46 PM
Now bringing that kind of good work up to the Manufacturing Belt, the one north of the Mason-Dixon, and east of the Mississippi River.

/Business friendliness means slavery for those that are not business.
 
2011-12-17 10:33:22 PM

Cubansaltyballs: More like Samsung brought more jobs to Texas.


Was it Samsung's doing or did Apple ask them to do it? I wonder if they're shipping the processors to China to assemble.
 
2011-12-17 10:34:27 PM

SockMonkeyHolocaust: Maybe they are considering that since Steve Jobs was a Buddhist that they may want to provide the chance for him to come back and live with a level of comfort that approaches human.


Not going to happen in Texas.
 
2011-12-17 10:39:19 PM

change1211:
I wonder if they're shipping the processors to China to assemble.


...which negates the whole practice of building the chips in the US. What would be the cost of doing the assembly in house by those in the US? It wouldnt seem to add more than a few dollars at the end product price, even if you added well-paid and treated direct hire workers in the North.

Why does business always seek slavery to do their bidding, whether it be the South, Mexico, China or Vietnam?
 
2011-12-17 10:39:25 PM
Americans won't stand for this. They don't want US made products, they want cheap Chinese crap.

USA! USA! USA!
 
2011-12-17 10:43:04 PM
Well played mr. Submitter, sir.
 
2011-12-17 10:43:04 PM

DVOM: Americans won't stand for this. They don't want US made products, they want cheap Chinese crap.

USA! USA! USA!


Since you aren't serious, I'll call that out to preempt anyone else.

Wouldnt mind seeing some numbers on doing it in the US, and for Manufacturing Belt / New England states that could sure use some steady, direct hire employment from a business that considers workers an asset, not as a potential terrorist.
 
2011-12-17 10:46:42 PM

sethstorm: Now bringing that kind of good work up to the Manufacturing Belt, the one north of the Mason-Dixon, and east of the Mississippi River.

/Business friendliness means slavery for those that are not business.


Nerf the unions and they will, just sayin.
 
2011-12-17 10:51:34 PM

change1211: Cubansaltyballs: More like Samsung brought more jobs to Texas.

Was it Samsung's doing or did Apple ask them to do it? I wonder if they're shipping the processors to China to assemble.


Samsung chip packaging was in China when I worked as an engineer at the Samsung Austin plant. The whole wafers from all plants are shipped to a central location for dicing into chips and final electrical test.

The Austin plant is impressive, it really is. This isn't especially new though, if you have an iPhone you've likely got one or more flash chips from Austin TX in there.
 
2011-12-17 10:52:53 PM
Ghost in the machine.
 
2011-12-17 10:54:32 PM
Korean quality engineering put together with American apathy... sounds like a match made in China
 
2011-12-17 10:57:25 PM

sethstorm: change1211:
I wonder if they're shipping the processors to China to assemble.

...which negates the whole practice of building the chips in the US. What would be the cost of doing the assembly in house by those in the US? It wouldnt seem to add more than a few dollars at the end product price, even if you added well-paid and treated direct hire workers in the North.

Why does business always seek slavery to do their bidding, whether it be the South, Mexico, China or Vietnam?


a lot of it comes from foreign competition. If they undercut your price and you don't follow then you lose market share. My mom used to work for a manufacturing plant making boat props. The Chinese started flooding the market with cheaper imports. Their market share started to plummet and they had to reduce costs to try and compete. That meant laying off workers and cutting benefits. They also started to ship more work overseas to help with the costs. Now this company was a small one and worked with the union to figure the best way to achieve this. But they are still struggling and may not survive. They didn't want to move jobs overseas and lay people off but it was either that or fold the company and fire everyone.
 
2011-12-17 10:59:07 PM
what a poorly written article by a clueless git.
 
2011-12-17 10:59:24 PM
Just to add knowledge to the discussion, American companies can't build modern processors in China because of technology export laws. They can build in the EU, Israel, etc but not China.
 
2011-12-17 10:59:49 PM

sethstorm: ...which negates the whole practice of building the chips in the US. What would be the cost of doing the assembly in house by those in the US? It wouldnt seem to add more than a few dollars at the end product price, even if you added well-paid and treated direct hire workers in the North.


No it doesn't. Your average gadget contains materials and parts that are mined or built thousands of miles away from each other. Most likely Apple wanted a secondary facility outside of Asia to produce the chips to prevent interruptions in their supply chain (see: Thailand and flooding)

/and US labor is more than just a few dollars more expensive than Asia
 
2011-12-17 11:22:32 PM

bravian: sethstorm: ...which negates the whole practice of building the chips in the US. What would be the cost of doing the assembly in house by those in the US? It wouldnt seem to add more than a few dollars at the end product price, even if you added well-paid and treated direct hire workers in the North.

No it doesn't. Your average gadget contains materials and parts that are mined or built thousands of miles away from each other. Most likely Apple wanted a secondary facility outside of Asia to produce the chips to prevent interruptions in their supply chain (see: Thailand and flooding)

/and US labor is more than just a few dollars more expensive than Asia


I'd say they can afford it, don't they have the most cash on hand of any company?
 
2011-12-17 11:35:49 PM

Terrified Asexual Forcemeat: Just to add knowledge to the discussion, American companies can't build modern processors in China because of technology export laws. They can build in the EU, Israel, etc but not China.


So its something they had to do and not some grandiose gesture by apple
 
2011-12-17 11:36:01 PM
I seem to recall hearing that Jobs told Obama that we needed better manufacturing in this country, and that manufacturing know-how was a primary reason Apple builds products in China rather than in the US.
 
2011-12-17 11:39:36 PM
This is the thing I really don't get about the "we must revive manufacturing" crowd. We see them, hear them, often enough, telling us all that the US (or the UK) must do more manufacturing, that's the only way to settle and grow the economy. But as this little Apple story tells us, manufacturing seems to come in two kinds at the moment. Lots of jobs but very low wages assembly work, the stuff that is done in China. Or very few jobs indeed high tech stuff. Which is nice, sure, but it just doesn't employ tens of millions of people, not even tens of thousands.

And the actual value isn't in making the things anyway, it's in the designing of them and the selling. Which is the part of the process that America dominates anyway.


I realize he's a Fellow, which means he's mostly useless, but I would think someone with an institute named after Adam Smith would realize that, in a capitalist society, people have to actually do things to earn money, and that you have to earn money to have such frivolities as food and a roof over your head.

Manufacturing used to employ a lot of people in the West. Now, not only is manufacturing losing jobs to cheap overseas labor, darn near every sector is losing out. Oh, and we have fat cats who think all us little people should be willing to live with less, while they should be able to maintain their current standard of living. (It'll come crashing down, eventually, but I'm betting it won't be pretty.)
 
2011-12-17 11:46:13 PM
Manufacturing doesn't just make jobs in the factory itself. It provides jobs to those who need to service the workers who work there. Manufacturing is kind of the center of it all.
 
2011-12-17 11:57:30 PM

sethstorm: Why does business always seek slavery to do their bidding, whether it be the South, Mexico, China or Vietnam?


farm8.staticflickr.com
 
2011-12-17 11:58:53 PM
People manufacturing things is so 1970s.

It's all going to be robots and computer automated tools in the future no matter where you live. We're just going through the convergence of the cost of automation vs. cost of paying people. China is merely a stepping stone.

Design is where the money is at. Keep insisting that your liberal arts degree is worth something when you don't want to struggle for a Mech Eng degree, but reality will catch up with you whether you like it or not.

/not a mech eng
//wishes he had been at a state school
 
2011-12-18 12:00:11 AM
too soon
 
2011-12-18 12:13:59 AM

jtown: sethstorm: Why does business always seek slavery to do their bidding, whether it be the South, Mexico, China or Vietnam?

[farm8.staticflickr.com image 600x500]


you win.
 
2011-12-18 12:15:28 AM

steamingpile: Terrified Asexual Forcemeat: Just to add knowledge to the discussion, American companies can't build modern processors in China because of technology export laws. They can build in the EU, Israel, etc but not China.

So its something they had to do and not some grandiose gesture by apple


steamingpile: Terrified Asexual Forcemeat: Just to add knowledge to the discussion, American companies can't build modern processors in China because of technology export laws. They can build in the EU, Israel, etc but not China.

So its something they had to do and not some grandiose gesture by apple


I don't know about "had to do", but Austin is a good place to set up a semiconductor fab all by itself if the engineers are willing to live there and Samsung can recruit enough techs by paying reasonably enough (about $20/hr or so, requires a degree and a good interview).
 
2011-12-18 12:19:28 AM

MrSid: sethstorm: Now bringing that kind of good work up to the Manufacturing Belt, the one north of the Mason-Dixon, and east of the Mississippi River.

/Business friendliness means slavery for those that are not business.

Nerf the unions and they will, just sayin.


Something about this that reminds me of being stuck in an endless programming loop.
 
2011-12-18 12:40:20 AM
steamingpile

Terrified Asexual Forcemeat: Just to add knowledge to the discussion, American companies can't build modern processors in China because of technology export laws. They can build in the EU, Israel, etc but not China.

So its something they had to do and not some grandiose gesture by apple


Apple isn't making any grandiose gesture. Some paid shill is making a big deal out of it. So much for journalistic integrity.
 
2011-12-18 12:52:31 AM
What - was Jobs related to "the Godfather of Soul" James Brown?

They kept that poor bastard on tour for the better part of a year if I remember right


didn't bother to read sorry - late
 
2011-12-18 01:29:01 AM
Hard to hate on them...it's a step in the right direction.

Sure, people will say "Yeah, but it doesn't create THAT many jobs..."

FTFA
"For there aren't many jobs involved with it: 1,100 it seems are all that are required to produce all of the chips that Apple needs. "

That's 1,100 employed Americans. Potentially 1,100 families that can now afford food, housing, and other necessities. If each family supported by these jobs consists of a father, mother and one child, that's 3,300 people who benefit from this.

/YMMV
//Numbers are probably overly optimistic
 
2011-12-18 01:37:33 AM

aspAddict: Hard to hate on them...it's a step in the right direction.

Sure, people will say "Yeah, but it doesn't create THAT many jobs..."

FTFA
"For there aren't many jobs involved with it: 1,100 it seems are all that are required to produce all of the chips that Apple needs. "

That's 1,100 employed Americans. Potentially 1,100 families that can now afford food, housing, and other necessities. If each family supported by these jobs consists of a father, mother and one child, that's 3,300 people who benefit from this.

/YMMV
//Numbers are probably overly optimistic


Yeah, but they're Texan jobs. Which is like half a job. They criminally underpay in the sun belt states.
 
2011-12-18 01:42:16 AM

bravian: /and US labor is more than just a few dollars more expensive than Asia


Once the Chinese stop buying out debt, the dollar will sink and it will be about even.
 
2011-12-18 01:51:48 AM

MrEricSir: I seem to recall hearing that Jobs told Obama that we needed better manufacturing in this country, and that manufacturing know-how was a primary reason Apple builds products in China rather than in the US.


Somehow, I doubt that. I think it has more to do with the fact that Jobs (or any other CEO) can have his gadgets made more cheaply in China than here. I mean, the Chinese may build the things on the factory lines, but the machinery and techniques used to fabricate electronics sounds like something that wouldn't be developed in a country where IP theft is the number one way of getting new ideas through the borders. You'd think that a country with more advanced manufacturing processes than the US would be able to field more of its own ideas more effectively... look at their latest supercomputer, for example. Before, when they were using nVidia and AMD (I think) components, all they had to do was basically read the assembly manual, and ta-da, world's fastest supercomputer. The ones they designed themselves and released recently could easily be smoked by what runs in our national laboratories.

/could be wrong
 
2011-12-18 02:05:08 AM

aspAddict: Sure, people will say "Yeah, but it doesn't create THAT many jobs..."

Potentially 1,100 families that can now afford food, housing, and other necessities. If each family supported by these jobs consists of a father, mother and one child, that's 3,300 people who benefit from this.


And it's not just the family members, it's the restaurants in town and the car dealers in town and the grocery stores in town and the housing people in town. Money doesn't stop, it keeps circulating.
 
2011-12-18 02:17:05 AM

Marine1: MrEricSir: I seem to recall hearing that Jobs told Obama that we needed better manufacturing in this country, and that manufacturing know-how was a primary reason Apple builds products in China rather than in the US.

Somehow, I doubt that. I think it has more to do with the fact that Jobs (or any other CEO) can have his gadgets made more cheaply in China than here. I mean, the Chinese may build the things on the factory lines, but the machinery and techniques used to fabricate electronics sounds like something that wouldn't be developed in a country where IP theft is the number one way of getting new ideas through the borders. You'd think that a country with more advanced manufacturing processes than the US would be able to field more of its own ideas more effectively... look at their latest supercomputer, for example. Before, when they were using nVidia and AMD (I think) components, all they had to do was basically read the assembly manual, and ta-da, world's fastest supercomputer. The ones they designed themselves and released recently could easily be smoked by what runs in our national laboratories.

/could be wrong


Yes, but not very long

For the longest time, the best chip designs have been made in the US. I don't keep up with non-X86 architectures, but the Chinese (Read:Loongson) have reached computing parity with Intel's best. AT THE FARKING 65NM NODE. To simplify, they're making chips that are on par with current chips, with a fab that debuted in 2006. x86(AMD and Intel) and PPC (IBM), have been the dominant archs of the last decade. But MIPS, ARM, and SPARC are making a comeback, and Windows 8 will have an ARM build.

TL;DR:
If I were you, I'd stay FAR away from AMD and Intel for investment purposes.
 
2011-12-18 02:23:34 AM

Marine1: Somehow, I doubt that. I think it has more to do with the fact that Jobs (or any other CEO) can have his gadgets made more cheaply in China than here. I mean, the Chinese may build the things on the factory lines, but the machinery and techniques used to fabricate electronics sounds like something that wouldn't be developed in a country where IP theft is the number one way of getting new ideas through the borders. You'd think that a country with more advanced manufacturing processes than the US would be able to field more of its own ideas more effectively... look at their latest supercomputer, for example. Before, when they were using nVidia and AMD (I think) components, all they had to do was basically read the assembly manual, and ta-da, world's fastest supercomputer. The ones they designed themselves and released recently could easily be smoked by what runs in our national laboratories.

/could be wrong


I think it also has a lot to do with the exchange rate and various import/export taxes. (But I could also be wrong.) Seems to me China's corruption leads to an economy where IP theft is a more marketable skill than innovation, since manufacturing is a prized industry but so-called "knowledge work" is not.
 
2011-12-18 02:24:36 AM
Aside from the whole evil gubermint regulations and high costs that people say keep us from setting up manufacturing in the U.S., I'm more curious about the other reason....that our raw engineering talent is just no longer there anymore. It's true more young people are avoiding the hard sciences these days. That's a huge thing. That and our inability to streamline visas for smart foreigners will have a huge negative impact on us in the long run.
 
2011-12-18 03:06:35 AM

thy crotch: jtown: sethstorm: Why does business always seek slavery to do their bidding, whether it be the South, Mexico, China or Vietnam?

[farm8.staticflickr.com image 600x500]

you win.


Well, technically, he doesn't. Essentially, the pyramids were a form of "workfare", and building could only be done outside of the planting and harvest seasons, when the workforce was available. It wasn't slaves that built the pyramids, it was a combination of skilled and unskilled labour that was essentially paying "sweat taxes".
 
2011-12-18 03:52:59 AM

SmitetheRighteous: Aside from the whole evil gubermint regulations and high costs that people say keep us from setting up manufacturing in the U.S., I'm more curious about the other reason....that our raw engineering talent is just no longer there anymore. It's true more young people are avoiding the hard sciences these days. That's a huge thing. That and our inability to streamline visas for smart foreigners will have a huge negative impact on us in the long run.


When your society venerates those who makes money from doing nothing and knowing nothing (except the arcane fairytale world in which they operate), who wants to do the hard work to actually do something useful to society?
 
2011-12-18 04:02:42 AM

MrSid: Nerf the unions and they will, just sayin.


Only if the unionbusters are nerfed at the same time. What happens to yes voters must be equal to what happens with no voters.


video man: Yeah, but they're Texan jobs. Which is like half a job. They criminally underpay in the sun belt states.


Thank all the bad practices towards regular individuals that RTW seems to bring along for the ride. The only way it took hold is that the South was a natural blank slate for non-agricultural industry, such that one could potentially indoctrinate a natural aversion to worker friendliness (and thus preempt unions). About the only way you're going to kill RTW is with a federal law that sets things straight while making sure the lobbyists are far from any Congressman(only if one is willing to invoke the portion of the current NDAA that would risk impeachment).

Without a moderating influence on business, slavery is proven to be more market-friendly than freedom.
 
2011-12-18 04:13:24 AM

SmitetheRighteous: Aside from the whole evil gubermint regulations and high costs that people say keep us from setting up manufacturing in the U.S., I'm more curious about the other reason....that our raw engineering talent is just no longer there anymore. It's true more young people are avoiding the hard sciences these days. That's a huge thing. That and our inability to streamline visas for smart foreigners will have a huge negative impact on us in the long run.


Those guest worker visas are not used for any purpose other than fraud. Thank 20 CFR 655 and 20 CFR 656, the regulations that Grigsby & Cohen were caught trying to circumvent. Yup, that guest worker visa. That other one too.


For the Utah Farkers, your legislature had some Arizona-based employer group(AZEIR) advise them to pick a similarly fraud-prone bill(warning: PDF) that covers the unskilled end too. Congratulations, you get farked at any skill level.

The talent still exists, it's just that business wants a more pliant audience with the same skillset. If one were to go with your conclusion of a reduced talent level, you can thank businesses again for making it an undesired practice.
 
2011-12-18 04:17:55 AM

Terrified Asexual Forcemeat: I don't know about "had to do", but Austin is a good place to set up a semiconductor fab all by itself if the engineers are willing to live there and Samsung can recruit enough techs by paying reasonably enough (about $20/hr or so, requires a degree and a good interview).


How about require Samsung to do training the non-degreed and are required to have a long-term commitment with the company? Oh, wait - that would actually mean that a company adapts to the people around them, and that said company treats them like a valued investment. Quelle horror!
 
2011-12-18 04:23:55 AM

bravian: /and US labor is more than just a few dollars more expensive than Asia


I'd still call bullshiat, even with all the regulations out there. For what it would do to the price of the end product, US labor's cost wouldn't cause it to skyrocket like business keeps saying it would.


Tellingthem: sethstorm: change1211:
I wonder if they're shipping the processors to China to assemble.

...which negates the whole practice of building the chips in the US. What would be the cost of doing the assembly in house by those in the US? It wouldnt seem to add more than a few dollars at the end product price, even if you added well-paid and treated direct hire workers in the North.

Why does business always seek slavery to do their bidding, whether it be the South, Mexico, China or Vietnam?

a lot of it comes from foreign competition. If they undercut your price and you don't follow then you lose market share. My mom used to work for a manufacturing plant making boat props. The Chinese started flooding the market with cheaper imports. Their market share started to plummet and they had to reduce costs to try and compete. That meant laying off workers and cutting benefits. They also started to ship more work overseas to help with the costs. Now this company was a small one and worked with the union to figure the best way to achieve this. But they are still struggling and may not survive. They didn't want to move jobs overseas and lay people off but it was either that or fold the company and fire everyone.


When the Chinese manipulate their currency to be always below the US, while manipulating their people to not seek freedom and asking the US to appease them, you're going to get dumping of massive amounts of product.
 
2011-12-18 05:28:59 AM

sethstorm: Terrified Asexual Forcemeat: I don't know about "had to do", but Austin is a good place to set up a semiconductor fab all by itself if the engineers are willing to live there and Samsung can recruit enough techs by paying reasonably enough (about $20/hr or so, requires a degree and a good interview).

How about require Samsung to do training the non-degreed and are required to have a long-term commitment with the company? Oh, wait - that would actually mean that a company adapts to the people around them, and that said company treats them like a valued investment. Quelle horror!


But if require Samsung to do training the non-degreed and are required, how is do way to instain mother who kill her babbys?
 
2011-12-18 08:33:40 AM

sethstorm: Why does business always seek slavery to do their bidding, whether it be the South, Mexico, China or Vietnam?


Really ?
2/10
 
2011-12-18 11:10:34 AM

sethstorm: Terrified Asexual Forcemeat: I don't know about "had to do", but Austin is a good place to set up a semiconductor fab all by itself if the engineers are willing to live there and Samsung can recruit enough techs by paying reasonably enough (about $20/hr or so, requires a degree and a good interview).

How about require Samsung to do training the non-degreed and are required to have a long-term commitment with the company? Oh, wait - that would actually mean that a company adapts to the people around them, and that said company treats them like a valued investment. Quelle horror!


Um, they do. Nobody comes out of college (the engineers) or tech-school/military (most of the technicians) or high school (the operations people) knowing how the steps in semiconductor manufacturing work and knowing how to operate a bay full of various types of plasma etch chambers at maximum productivity. Samsung trains its employees well; they have to. They also pay quite well, especially when you consider the cost of living.

Samsung isn't a worker's paradise or anything because the hours can be long and the stress high. But they do invest in their employees. I knew of many people who started work at Samsung without a degree just moving wafers around but Samsung helped get a tech degree and they are now technicians making much more than $20 per hour. I think this push comes from their Korean operations where Samsung literally has a university on site, training people to be engineers.
 
2011-12-18 11:23:22 AM

theflatline: what a poorly written article by a clueless git.


aptly said, thank you.
 
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