Most of the quick lubes around my town have backed off the 3k and gone up to 5k. But every car is different.

Is there going to be a "War on Oil Changes"?

They could make it illegal to change your oil that frequently. Then we could hire more police to get people working.

Shadetree mechanics need to be locked up!

I'm currently a Chrysler owner, and I can tell you that the dealerships tell you that you need an oil change every 5,000km... but the owner's manual from the factory says 10,000km.

Of course the dealers will also try to sell you some kind of engine wash, where they flush detergent through the engine after they drain the old oil and before the put in the new. The service advisor at my local dealership had the decency to look embarrassed when he suggested that service and I laughed at him.

I seem to recall reading somewhere that Jiffy Lube puts 3k stickers in cars, but the average mileage between oil changes is like 9k miles.

Anyway, one can always send an oil sample off to the lab to get an idea for how the car is doing.

Here's a report from my 2006 Toyota Camry 4-cylinder after 14,400 miles on Mobil 1 Extended Performance. (The 2,457 mile report was with Mobil Clean 5000 and the 4,650 mile report was with Mobil 1, both for benchmarks.) All oil was 5W-30. The benchmark reports used OEM oil filters, while the long run used a Mobil 1 filter (came on sale with the oil, so why not?).

In short: modern oils are fantastic. Unless your engine manufacturer calls for synthetic oil or you operate in extreme conditions, there's no sense wasting the money. M1EP can easily go 15,000 miles, which is in line with its marketing, but I'd rather take the car in for the scheduled service every 5,000 miles as described in the owner's manual.

/my mechanic, who runs a great local shop in Tucson, still puts 3k stickers for conventional oil and 5k stickers for synthetic. Other than that, they're the best shop in town.

heypete: The 2,457 mile report was with Mobil Clean 5000

Correction: it was with Mobile Drive Clean 10W-30. It's Mobil's bulk conventional oil for shops, rather than a retail product. My bad.

RTFM

For most cars 7500 miles.

For turbo-equipped cars it will be less.

This depends on where you live. In California, where the temps don't reach below -30 sure extend the oil changes. However that being said any vehicle that does city driving as most of their driving should follow the "severe service" part of the maintenance schedule. City driving is brutal on cars especally transmissions.

Unsung_Hero: I'm currently a Chrysler owner, and I can tell you that the dealerships tell you that you need an oil change every 5,000km... but the owner's manual from the factory says 10,000km.

Of course the dealers will also try to sell you some kind of engine wash, where they flush detergent through the engine after they drain the old oil and before the put in the new. The service advisor at my local dealership had the decency to look embarrassed when he suggested that service and I laughed at him.

I don't like those engine flush additives. Seeing as you will never remove 100% of the old oil in the first place (Its actually around 75-80% for most vehicles) you leave that cleaner in the new oil. The service manual of my Dodge charger says never for any reason let your oil go past 10,000 miles, not that I would anyways. I also feed it a healthy diet of Amsoil products so I don't expect so ever see drive train problems related to lack of lubrication. Now if only these electrical problems were as easy

They have a site set up where you can check the recommended oil change interval for you car.

I have a dodge pickup. They do not even list dodge.

Fail.

/Whether them, or me for owning such a horrible piece of crap is another question.

Recent Hondas have a maintenance minder that tracks your driving characteristics (e.g. stop-and-go vs. long highway cruises, gentle vs. hard acceleration, cold starts, and so on), with a display showing percentage of remaining oil life. With my '10 Fit, my first oil change after the factory fill was with Mobil 1 5W-20, and the next time the minder reached 15% (the "change oil soon" threshold) was 9,000 miles later. Every now and then, I'd check the oil, and the engine hadn't used any - and the oil always looked new, right up to when I had it changed.

It wouldn't surprise me if I could have gone another few thousand miles on Mobil 1 (the minder assumes dino juice instead of synthetic), but 9,000 miles is still kind of a culture shock to me.

It's pretty clear that the engine is burning fuel cleanly and the rings are sealing very well...

The GM at my dealership recently asked us to bump the mileage we write on the stickers from 3k to 5k. No one ever comes in at 3k anyway.

One thing about the 5k number that's good to consider unless you're very good at checking over your car yourself is that it forces you to take your car somewhere where someone else will look at it. You might even have your tires rotated. Then you won't discover at 40k that your tires are about to explode.

/Have a VW, recommended maintenance every 10k
//Had to put all new tires on, but 40k isn't bad for tire lifetime
///Probably should pay more attention to them though

Honda suggested 10K for my 6 yo accord. I had no idea, usually go 6-7 between changes.

OTOH, Ford suggests 5K for the F150, still go 6-7.

firegoat: The GM at my dealership recently asked us to bump the mileage we write on the stickers from 3k to 5k. No one ever comes in at 3k anyway.

I change oil at roughly 5k mile intervals anyway. It's easier to remember that multiple of the 7.5k my manual recommends.

$30 2-3 times a year is not a lot, especially when you do it at the same time as other maintenance, like free tire rotation form the tire dealer.

Oil, filters, and crush washers are cheap enough compared to the current value of a car, I'll change my oil as often as I want. Wasting oil is better then wasting Blue Book Value.

/isn't motor oil supposed to get recycled?
//I'm sure some of what comes back is just sludge but you should get a decent amount of useful motor oil from used stuff with proper filtering and refinement.

spontn80: It is my opinion that all new car owners are suckers. With all the suckers buying new cars every few years there is a shiatload of used cars that look good and run as good as a new one.

There is something wonderful about being the first hand owner of a sports car.

Having my first hand sports car now, I think I've gotten it out of my system and will buy beaters for the rest of my life, unless I become a one percenter.

spontn80: I have had a lot of cars that had the oil changed one quart at a time. Sealed my driveway too.
I'm lazy and would never buy a new car I change the oil in my truck once a year if it needs it or not.

I've never paid more than 1200 bucks for a car. Never. I've had this truck for nearly 10 years. Something like 9 oil changes and tons of miles, about 6k in brakes and misc parts and problems total. Where can I buy a new Ram 4x4 for less than 10k that lasts 10 years? I need a big truck, I don't even look at MPG. I might double my mileage with a newer truck but at the end of the year it is still cheaper than a new truck would be.

It is my opinion that all new car owners are suckers. With all the suckers buying new cars every few years there is a shiatload of used cars that look good and run as good as a new one. Spend 10k on one if you want i don't care. I just don't understand the need for an expensive new car. Should your car be the most expensive thing you own second only to your house? I want my guitar to cost more than my car. priorities man, priorities.

Right now one of my bicycle is worth more than my truck is. Truck is 11 years old, but I did buy it new. Bicycle is 5 years old, and I have not ridden it all year.

Sometimes priorities suck.

Absolutely true. The 3k myth has been around since the late 1970s. It used to be a recommendation for 3k miles back in the '50s and '60s. But as refining technology progressed, the oil would last much longer. The Jiffy Lube, Quick Change, etc places wanted your money and thus would tell you 3k miles.
My 2002 Hyundai Elantra can go 7500 miles between changes on regular oil, and about 10k on synthetic. Since I use synthetic, I change my oil between 7k and 9k miles, depending on usage and time of year.

TwistedIvory: and there is tons of dust in the air

What does this have to do with anything? If ambient dust is getting into your oil system, there's a whole lot of other things wrong with your car.

TwistedIvory: rohar: TwistedIvory: and there is tons of dust in the air

What does this have to do with anything? If ambient dust is getting into your oil system, there's a whole lot of other things wrong with your car.

"Here's really where the confusion begins-what constitutes severe operating conditions?

frequent short trips
sustained high speeds in hot or cold weather
severe dusty conditions
extremely humid conditions
trailer towing
mountainous or steep terrain "

(http://alternativefuels.about.com/od/vehiclemaintenanceguide/a/oilch a ngedebate.htm)

The way I see it, an air filter isn't going to capture 100% of the fine particulate matter in the air and there's always going to be a small amount of it reaching the combustion chamber. In very dusty conditions, this problem is exacerbated. Dust acts as a friction surface suspended in the oil (though much of it is probably captured after first circulation through the oil filter), but small bits do add up.

I was with you right up to this part. Even if particulate matter reaches the combustion chamber, it's not likely to be in contact with your engine's oil. The tolerances on modern valves and rings are just too tight to let it through. The only way you could get contamination of this type is if something was terribly wrong with the engine. You'd notice that though, because if matter can go from the combustion chamber to the crank case, matter can go from the crank case to the combustion chamber and you'd be burning a lot of oil.

I would suggest a more rapid air filter schedule in such conditions though.

I just take my vehicles to Wheel Works every 5000 miles and get a tire rotation and oil change. Kill two birds with one stone.

It's not the fact the oil breaks down, it's that it gets full of shiat.

Err.........Subby:

Hand-me-down from the in-laws a decade ago. Got 206,000 miles on it before trading it in.

TwistedIvory: rohar: Even if particulate matter reaches the combustion chamber, it's not likely to be in contact with your engine's oil. The tolerances on modern valves and rings are just too tight to let it through.

I think that's true in a perfect world and on some vehicles that may be true. My wife's car doesn't use much oil -- less than a quart between oil changes, unless we've gone on a trip with lots of elevation gain and that little four cylinder's working away -- but it uses some, which leads me to believe that some (not much, but some) oil is making it past the piston rings into the chamber. Wouldn't the converse be true, that intake particulate could make it into the crankcase, then?

If not, why is dust always such a prominent factor in determining severe service guidelines?

There's any number of routes between the intake and the combustion chamber. I'm guessing the important route, in this case, is the crankcase vents. There's one in the block and one on the head. There's a pair of pipes that go from the crank/head to the intake track after the filter and most likely before the throttle (some manufacturers do vent directly to the intake manifold, but this can be problematic). There's a one way valve in the vents called a PCV valve that allows gasses and a little oil to flow from the crank case to the intake track. Since the intake track is under vacuum, this removes any positive pressure from the crank case which would be bad. If the filter is restricted due to high volumes of dust, more vacuum is generated at this point pulling more gasses/oil from the crank case.

I'd bet dollars to doughnuts a larger air filter or increased air filter schedule would reduce oil consumption. Between that and verifying the PCV valves I'd bet oil consumption could be completely eliminated.

TwistedIvory I just realized how timely this discussion is. I'm working on an Audi 2.8v6 right now. PCVs and air filter were obviously ignored for many miles. I'm guessing they weren't so good with oil changes either. The engine has 130k on it, but a compression test shows rings/valves are actually pretty good. Blowby can't be an issue with these numbers.

Here's the intake manifold though:



You'll notice the inside is black from all the oil it ate.

Will California be paying for your repairs when the manufacturer voids your warranty for not following the manufacturer reccomended oil change time table?

Giltric: Will California be paying for your repairs when the manufacturer voids your warranty for not following the manufacturer reccomended oil change time table?

The warranty can only be voided if the cause of the warranty repair is a failure to do the suggested maintenance on the manufacture's timeline.

Giltric: Will California be paying for your repairs when the manufacturer voids your warranty for not following the manufacturer reccomended oil change time table?

Do you know how I know you didn't RTFA?

You'll notice the inside is black from all the oil it ate.

I think not, Rohar. How would oil stain the intake manifold? Do you have soem kind of oil operated carburettors or fuel injection system?

The only way oil could get there is a PCV valve fail or really bad valve seals/valves(my guess) or some backfiring through the intake.

Ah, PCV mentioned. I fail at reading.

My Apologies.

I change my oil when I change the clocks and smoke alarm batteries.

Chrysler PT Cruiser: 151,000 miles

Oil changed every 8k-10k miles

Still running strong and no mechanical failures.

loki see loki do: Ah, PCV mentioned. I fail at reading.

My Apologies.

No worries :)

tomWright: They have a site set up where you can check the recommended oil change interval for you car.

I have a dodge pickup. They do not even list dodge.

Fail.

I guess they figure it'll leak out fast enough on its own, so just keep it topped off.
=Smidge=

RTFM

Mine says 7500 miles.

I will probably push it to 5000.

Does anyone know if wet clutch motorcycles can push that kind of mileage? I know some of the more modern varieties recommend an oil change every 8000 miles or so, but is that strictly model / engine specific?

I need to replace the transmission fluid on my 1996 Saturn SL2, got the reverse slam going on for some time and if I'm not careful it'll start doing it while in drive.

/site says to replace oil every 3k miles
//same as the manual
///probably about 1k over

Fubegra: the minder assumes dino juice instead of synthetic

Are you sure? If so, that's wasteful, considering how big the difference is.

I don't know anything about car computers, but in this day and age I would've figured it assumed synthetic, and the car manual would say synthetic required (or use regular at your own risk). Or, there would be a way to specify the oil type when resetting the computer.

In 1982 I bought a big block Chevy 454 from a friend and managed to squeeze it into the engine compartment of my '73 El Camino. I drove that car every day for ten years, changing the oil every 6k miles. I used full synthetic motor oil (Mobile One). I sold the car in '93 to a guy that really only wanted the engine for a dragster he was building. When he tore down the engine for rebuilding and installing high performance parts the block and heads were darn near pristine ! As far as I know, he is still running that same engine, but the block may well be the only origonal part by now.

rohar: TwistedIvory I just realized how timely this discussion is. I'm working on an Audi 2.8v6 right now. PCVs and air filter were obviously ignored for many miles. I'm guessing they weren't so good with oil changes either. The engine has 130k on it, but a compression test shows rings/valves are actually pretty good. Blowby can't be an issue with these numbers.

Here's the intake manifold though:

[i910.photobucket.com image 405x720]

You'll notice the inside is black from all the oil it ate.

Looks like normal carbon deposits to me. Never seen an intake that wasn't black. If it were oil, it would be wet and sticky.

As for oil change intervals, use what is recommended by the car's manufacturer, or else stick with a 5,000 mile oil change. Older Volvos had 10k oil change intervals for naturally- aspirated models, and 5k for turbocharged models. Now, they split the difference for both with a 7,500 mile interval. I use synthetic on my turbocharged Volvos, and change when the manufacturer says to do so- 5k for my car, and 7.5k for my wife's car, even though they both have essentially the same engine.

The oil life minder systems on some cars are great... IF you actually pay attention to them, because when time is up... time is up, if you're using the type of oil its calibrated for.

spontn80: I have had a lot of cars that had the oil changed one quart at a time. Sealed my driveway too.
I'm lazy and would never buy a new car I change the oil in my truck once a year if it needs it or not.

I've never paid more than 1200 bucks for a car. Never. I've had this truck for nearly 10 years. Something like 9 oil changes and tons of miles, about 6k in brakes and misc parts and problems total. Where can I buy a new Ram 4x4 for less than 10k that lasts 10 years? I need a big truck, I don't even look at MPG. I might double my mileage with a newer truck but at the end of the year it is still cheaper than a new truck would be.

It is my opinion that all new car owners are suckers. With all the suckers buying new cars every few years there is a shiatload of used cars that look good and run as good as a new one. Spend 10k on one if you want i don't care. I just don't understand the need for an expensive new car. Should your car be the most expensive thing you own second only to your house? I want my guitar to cost more than my car. priorities man, priorities.

So much this.

/none of mine leak oil however and idle like they were new.
//have a large Johnson, so I already got a chick-magnet
///and by Johnson, I mean a outboard motor on my boat
////slashies!!