mission accomplished

James!: Or not, who knows.

Somacandra: Perhaps, but that's something we'll never know, will we? Its a complete hypothetical.

vernonFL: If my Aunt had balls, she'd be my Uncle.

Somacandra: FTFA: The center-right Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung writes: "During his election campaign, Obama would probably never in his wildest dreams have imagined that in December 2011, he as president would be praising Iraq as a beacon of democracy that shows the way for the troubled Arab world. Neither would he have imagined that he would see Iraq as a model for the peoples of the region who are seeking the right to democratic participation..."

Why not? Usually when you inherit lemons, you work and pray for enough sugar to make lemonade. Whether lefty or righty, these German rags are all about putting complete hypotheticals in other people's heads, aren' they?

If it weren't for Germany bombing Pearl Harbor my penis might be bigger.

SoCalSurfer: James!: Or not, who knows.

Somacandra: Perhaps, but that's something we'll never know, will we? Its a complete hypothetical.

vernonFL: If my Aunt had balls, she'd be my Uncle.

Somacandra: FTFA: The center-right Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung writes: "During his election campaign, Obama would probably never in his wildest dreams have imagined that in December 2011, he as president would be praising Iraq as a beacon of democracy that shows the way for the troubled Arab world. Neither would he have imagined that he would see Iraq as a model for the peoples of the region who are seeking the right to democratic participation..."

Why not? Usually when you inherit lemons, you work and pray for enough sugar to make lemonade. Whether lefty or righty, these German rags are all about putting complete hypotheticals in other people's heads, aren' they?

this, in aggregate

"fark Saddam, we're taking him out!"

-- George W. Bush

If I were born to Bill Gates, I'd have better things to do than post on Fark.

I was assured that Bush was a misunderstood genius that inspired Arabs everywhere with his freedom spreading techniques.

[Ironic]? try [Obvious]...

Some of us have been saying this since before we invaded Iraq and using that for justification as to why the whole premise of an Iraq invasion was stupid to begin with.

Well, aren't we all glad Bush sent 5000+ Americans to get killed so he could strut around like a tough guy and call himself a "war president" on TV?

Are you not entertained?

I said ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED!!!!??!!!

James!: Or not, who knows.

Or the opposite. Speculative BS is speculative.

JohnAnnArbor: James!: Or not, who knows.

Or the opposite. Speculative BS is speculative.

Or the Arab Spring might not have broken out at all. Or we would all be flying unicorns to work.

I doubt the thesis of this article. IMO the most proximate cause of the Arab Spring -- other than that fruit-stand vendor in Tunisia burning himself -- is the economic turmoil of the last few years, which worsened the employment situations in the Arab world, which were already in bad shape.

Jake Havechek: "fark Saddam, we're taking him out!"

-- George W. Bush



Because if there is one thing Bush Corp can not stand, it's insubordinate employees.

Jake Havechek: Well, aren't we all glad Bush sent 5000+ Americans to get killed so he could strut around like a tough guy and call himself a "war president" on TV?

Are you not entertained?

I said ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED!!!!??!!!

So, I suppose the 5000+ Americans are more important that the 500,000+ Iraqis.

Arkanaut: I doubt the thesis of this article. IMO the most proximate cause of the Arab Spring -- other than that fruit-stand vendor in Tunisia burning himself -- is the economic turmoil of the last few years, which worsened the employment situations in the Arab world, which were already in bad shape.

Wikileaks added a few matches to that tinder pile as well. Also serving as a long term aggravating circumstance was the US propping up hated regimes for decades.

Ctrl-F "Spring" - One result under the Tageszeitung quote. Wow, you mean a left-leaning publication has a left-leaning opinion on the war? Really? Good lord that IS surprising! I mean surely they are the only news publication in the world that holds a negative opinion of the Iraq war.

Somacandra: Whether lefty or righty, these German rags are all about putting complete hypotheticals in other people's heads, aren' they?

As are American "rags". As are news publications of various political leanings in pretty much every country on the planet.

If an idiot throws himself off a bridge because he thought he would "fall up", it is not irony that he plummets to his death.....

wasn't one of the major bush administration selling points (besides WMDs) was that this would promote democracy in other arab countries??


oops

Arkanaut: I doubt the thesis of this article. IMO the most proximate cause of the Arab Spring -- other than that fruit-stand vendor in Tunisia burning himself -- is the economic turmoil of the last few years, which worsened the employment situations in the Arab world, which were already in bad shape.

It's more a summary. The actual "article" just summarizes the response to the end of the war, quote from Panetta, quote from Obama, longer quote from Obama, poses question of whether cost of life/wounded was worth it (something seemingly every article on the Iraq war has done since forever), then pastes snippets from various newspapers and opinion pieces.

But good lord if it didn't twist the panties of a lot of Farkers and drive up a lot of page clic.....ahhhh right. Ad Revenue.

Bad_Seed: Jake Havechek: Well, aren't we all glad Bush sent 5000+ Americans to get killed so he could strut around like a tough guy and call himself a "war president" on TV?

Are you not entertained?

I said ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED!!!!??!!!

So, I suppose the 5000+ Americans are more important that the 500,000+ Iraqis.

That goes without saying, motherfarker, but we have no solid casualty numbers as to civilian deaths, so take your insinuation and shove it up your hemorrhoid ridden ass.

Perhaps. Just as important to the inception of the Arab Spring was a perfect storm of economic hardship. The war may have influenced economic realities, but the system is too complex for us to predict alternative history.

That's a big

Jake Havechek: Bad_Seed: Jake Havechek: Well, aren't we all glad Bush sent 5000+ Americans to get killed so he could strut around like a tough guy and call himself a "war president" on TV?

Are you not entertained?

I said ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED!!!!??!!!

So, I suppose the 5000+ Americans are more important that the 500,000+ Iraqis.

That goes without saying, motherfarker, but we have no solid casualty numbers as to civilian deaths, so take your insinuation and shove it up your hemorrhoid ridden ass.

Last i read it was 100k+, half a million injured, millions displaced.

Jake Havechek: Bad_Seed: Jake Havechek: Well, aren't we all glad Bush sent 5000+ Americans to get killed so he could strut around like a tough guy and call himself a "war president" on TV?

Are you not entertained?

I said ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED!!!!??!!!

So, I suppose the 5000+ Americans are more important that the 500,000+ Iraqis.

That goes without saying, motherfarker, but we have no solid casualty numbers as to civilian deaths, so take your insinuation and shove it up your hemorrhoid ridden ass.

I agree! How dare he quote such a low number!

750k+ is much more a realistic tally given 2nd hand tragedies like orphaned children

WomenInThoseMiddleEasternCountriesBefore200X.png

It's hard to say, but I think Bush's tactic did indeed do more harm then good. It turned Iraq into a battleground for several years, and caused all the hardliners in the area to solidify their rule, and suppress any dissent in the ranks.

Obama's approach was more hands off. When he saw something good happening, he tried to keep it a local revolt, rather then a US backed one. That I think will result in a much more complete, lasting change then one nation overthrowing another and installing a government.

indylaw: Perhaps. Just as important to the inception of the Arab Spring was a perfect storm of economic hardship. The war may have influenced economic realities, but the system is too complex for us to predict alternative history.

it's just as easy to say that the rise of competing political parties and political freedom in Iraq inspired others in the region to demand the same. People were inspired by those purple fingers.

Just as easy, which is to say, completely baseless speculation.

lennavan: JohnAnnArbor: James!: Or not, who knows.

Or the opposite. Speculative BS is speculative.

Or the Arab Spring might not have broken out at all.

Probably more likely than the scenario presented by Spiegel

We need to keep them from uniting and treating oil like jews treat diamonds. So its a shell game of which muslim nation to support and which to demonize next.

LarryDan43: We need to keep them from uniting and treating oil like jews treat diamonds. So its a shell game of which muslim nation to support and which to demonize next.

I don't know how Jews treat diamonds but Diamond is a Jewish last name. Maybe that's what you meant, stupid?

edmo: Eventually we'll all settle on why we went and what we accomplished and we'll look back on this with pride

Just like we do Vietnam.

One tiny difference: We got our asses kicked in Vietnam. No regime change, no new government, just our enemy taking over the entire country. No Ho Chi Min at the gallows. Other than that, your point is spot on.

"If it hadn't been for the US intervention in Iraq, the 'Arab Spring' might have broken out years earlier" . . . according to 4 op-eds written by germans who almost entirely opposed the war.


Next up: the economy would have recovered immediately if it weren't for the stimulus . . . according to a teaparty representative, Newt Gingrich, and Foxnews.

skullkrusher: it's just as easy to say that the rise of competing political parties and political freedom in Iraq inspired others in the region to demand the same. People were inspired by those purple fingers.

The thing is, though - how long ago was the purple fingers? 5 years? They all waited 5 years after being so inspired by purple fingers and all started having revolutions at the same time? It just doesn't make sense logically.

Which is why the "hands-off' aproach Obama took to the whole thing looks like the much better solution. Some people in one country start revolting. We don't step in. Shiat starts happening, other people in other countries go "Hey maybe we don't need the US Military to do this for us," then they start revolting, etc...

I have literally been saying this for 8 years - for a revolution to truly be effective, it has to be earned. The people have to want it, the people have to fight for it, and the people have to sacrifice for it. That's the only way a revolution can truly be successful.

When you want to look at the proper method for affecting change in places like the middle east, "doing something (i.e. invading/war) is a tough case to pull considering it took almost 10 years for that to theoretically result in anything, where "doing nothing" was theoretically almost immediately productive.

Considering that the Arab Spring was in part a function of

+ global climate change
+ 24x7 internet
+ facebook/twitter

maybe not.

In reading Ali Soufan's book, The Black Banners, he recounted how after 9/11 and before Iraq, many of the al Qaeda members we captured in Afghanistan seemed to have a total fixation on Iraq. Whenever they were interrogated by the FBI (prior to the Bush admin's push to have CIA takeover and use enhanced interrogation techniques EITs, or torture for short) many continually asked if the US had invaded Iraq yet. The reason: Many said that some in al Qaeda claimed that it was prophecied that the US would fall in Mesopotamia. It was a very end of the world view, which they thought would foreshadow the establishment of a global caliphate, in the same way Christian extremists think that Israel taken full control over historical Judea will bring about the end of times. Soufan said he argued with them about why the US should invade Iraq, given that they were busy fighting al Qaeda, and was dumbstruck when the administration moved in that direction.

It's a great, albeit, infuriating read, especially once you find out how the EITs came to be. Short story, 2 quack psychologists w/ no experience dealing with Islamic terrorists, or any understanding of the region, or even terrorism were tasked with reading al Qaeda's manuals (captured by the US) on what to expect upon being captured by the US, and came to the conclusion that the best way to get terrorists to break was to give them exactly what they were told to expect. FACEPALM.

This, even though Soufan, and others at the FBI and many at the CIA, proved that it was much more efficient to establish a rapport with these terrorists as a means of getting them to talk. Time and again they got information, as professional interrogators do that those using EITs could never get, even in the oft quoted "imminent attack" scenarios pushed by the Bush admin. Yet, the people who pushed for these, continually claimed credit for information obtained by professional interrogators as being those gotten from torture.

It might have been interesting if they'd actually interviewed some protesters and asked them if knowing that the US had troops in Iraq made them yearn for freedom and prosperity a little less than they would have if those troops were back home.

"Gaddafi killed my whole family and oppressed my people. And I really wanted him gone from 2001 to 2008. But I couldn't help but think 'man, Bush invaded Iraq'. And that made it all ok somehow. I kept waiting for them to withdraw so I could rise up with my countrymen against this dictator. But you know, with Iraq in a transitional state hundreds of miles away and in no way affecting me how could I in good conscious rebel against my government?"

Good old German Hindsight speculation love it.