The show's best characters are a holographic Doctor who spends most of his time confined to sickbay and probably isn't real anyway, an alien explorer who they've decided to stick behind a stove in their kitchen, and a recently liberated, super-hot Borg who spends all her time standing around in a cargo bay or sitting in front of a map somewhere in the bowels of the ship

I'm sorry, but Flotter Neelix really wasn't a very interesting character.

You know who was the most interesting character in Voyager? Annorax. And he only appeared in two episodes. Pretty much everybody else bites.

Neelix is over-eager obnoxious guy. The only good parts about him revolves him being a good godparent to the kid.

Seven of Nine's only function is to direct her breasts at the camera or to function as the show's Deus Ex Machina. Look, Seven of Nine invented a new way to solve the dilemma with her Borg nanoprobes!

The Doctor is an okay character, but when the show writers realized he's popular, they overused him to the point of stupidity. They'd make any excuse to use him, no matter how retarded. For example - let's give him a holographic family to be angsty about!

serial_crusher: I'm sorry, but Flotter Neelix really wasn't a very interesting character.

That's the point, everyone is so bland, he interesting by comparison.

serial_crusher: The show's best characters are a holographic Doctor who spends most of his time confined to sickbay and probably isn't real anyway, an alien explorer who they've decided to stick behind a stove in their kitchen, and a recently liberated, super-hot Borg who spends all her time standing around in a cargo bay or sitting in front of a map somewhere in the bowels of the ship

I'm sorry, but Flotter Neelix really wasn't a very interesting character.

I think Neelix was the reason I stopped watching The Flying Toilet Bowl, though that trajectory was clearly already established.

There were six of those Borg kids?

In fact Voyager spent more time on the holodeck than almost any other Star Trek had before.

Maybe because they were light years from home and were using it to escape and remember the home they lost.

Replicators are used so much they become less technology than magic, they're the instant solution to any problem, problems which might have been a lot more interesting if they couldn't be solved by simply pushing a button.

Uh, they can replicate anything and they're only limited by power.

They don't have any resources, they don't know where they are, and when half their crew is killed they're forced to replace them with bunch of rebellious, borderline space-pirates and make them their bunkmates. How does Voyager respond to this predicament? They decide to pretend they're still in Starfleet and keep doing everything by the book.

One, it was like 15 and 15 replacements, and two, the vast majority of them are Starfleet. The whole point was to be themselves.

By episode two they're virtually indistinguishable from every other Starfleet officer on the ship.

Except for the occasional mutiny they have. It was kind of the focus of the 1st season finale.

While the original Trek included characters based on their share of racial stereotypes, Scotty's obsession with drinking Scotch for instance, it didn't entirely rely on them.

Yes it did, and while Chakotay is a little annoying, he's realistic. If he just used it as an occasional mention, you'd biatch that he is a hollow character. Apparently everyone is either hollow or over the top.

It's the character they came up with for her to play, that never worked.

I don't think you ever watched beyond season 2. All Star Trek has problems early on. Late in the show it was great.

This is a shiatty discussion of problems that are largely invented to biatch about or symptomatic of the all of Star Trek. This guy just didn't like the show or was told he shouldn't like, but doesn't have a clue why.

Not that Voyager wasn't horrible, but its not a "moment".

GAT_00: It's the character they came up with for her to play, that never worked.

I don't think you ever watched beyond season 2. All Star Trek has problems early on. Late in the show it was great.

This is a shiatty discussion of problems that are largely invented to biatch about or symptomatic of the all of Star Trek. This guy just didn't like the show or was told he shouldn't like, but doesn't have a clue why.

I did watch beyond Season 2. Janeway consistently sucked throughout the entire series.

GAT_00: In fact Voyager spent more time on the holodeck than almost any other Star Trek had before.

Maybe because they were light years from home and were using it to escape and remember the home they lost.

Holodeck episodes are the ultimate Trek cliches. While other shows manage to transcend them (I'm looking at you, It's Only a Paper Moon), Voyager seems to try to make its holodeck episodes as cliche as possible.

GAT_00: While the original Trek included characters based on their share of racial stereotypes, Scotty's obsession with drinking Scotch for instance, it didn't entirely rely on them.

Yes it did, and while Chakotay is a little annoying, he's realistic. If he just used it as an occasional mention, you'd biatch that he is a hollow character. Apparently everyone is either hollow or over the top.

Chakotay was bad because Robert Beltran hated the show (and said so as much) and hated his character. He purposely acted wooden.

RexTalionis: You know who was the most interesting character in Voyager? Annorax. And he only appeared in two episodes. Pretty much everybody else bites.

The best character in that show - by far - was Tuvok. And he was completely sidelined once Seven of Nine came on board because every plot which would have made sense for Tuvok was given to her instead.

GAT_00: Maybe because they were light years from home and were using it to escape and remember the home they lost.

This is true, but that doesn't make it good storytelling. Using the holodeck so much was simply a way for the writers to escape the premise of the show. That's bad writing.

GAT_00: I don't think you ever watched beyond season 2. All Star Trek has problems early on. Late in the show it was great.

Wait - are you saying the late seasons of Voyager were "great"? I've literally never heard anyone claim this.

Voyager Doesn't Fully Utilize Its Premise


This x1000. They threw away the greatest possible storyline at the very beginning by making the 'Maquis' (?) into regular starfleet. What was the goddamn point in having them in the first place?

More Rick Berman = Less Good.

Plus my fav character was Ensingn Kim and he was just used as a dumbed-down Wesley and sidekick to Paris, who I just loathed...

He was just like that asshole engineer in "Enterprise"

gopher321: Voyager Doesn't Fully Utilize Its Premise



+

PREMISE

=

DamnYankees: RexTalionis: You know who was the most interesting character in Voyager? Annorax. And he only appeared in two episodes. Pretty much everybody else bites.

The best character in that show - by far - was Tuvok. And he was completely sidelined once Seven of Nine came on board because every plot which would have made sense for Tuvok was given to her instead.

Tuvok was trying too hard. I didn't like him.

Actually, now that I think about it a little bit more, you know who was a better character? Lon Suder, played by Brad Dourif. He was a psychopath who used the Maquis to feed his need to kill, but reformed after mild meld therapy by Tuvok, became a gardener, and then finally save the entire crew from a Kazon takeover in a heroic sacrifice.

I had a drunken encounter with Kate Mulgrew at a political fundraiser a few years ago.

RexTalionis: Tuvok was trying too hard. I didn't like him.

I didn't necessarily "like" him either, but he was interesting and well acted, IMO.

RexTalionis: Actually, now that I think about it a little bit more, you know who was a better character? Lon Suder, played by Brad Dourif.

Well duh. It's farking Brad Dourif. Of course he was awesome.

DamnYankees: Wait - are you saying the late seasons of Voyager were "great"? I've literally never heard anyone claim this.

I liked Voyager. I think it's been consistently shortchanged for whatever reason. Of course, the terrible finale didn't help.

DamnYankees: Using the holodeck so much was simply a way for the writers to escape the premise of the show.

And they were using it to escape. That fits.

RexTalionis: Janeway consistently sucked throughout the entire series.

Janeway was great later. She pissed me off early.

GAT_00: RexTalionis: Janeway consistently sucked throughout the entire series.

Janeway was great later. She pissed me off early.

You and I will just have to agree to disagree, then. When it was running, I would often turn the TV off after DS9 and ignore Voyager. When I went back to Voyager years later, it took a lot of effort to get through the series (skipping over the most insanely bad episodes like Threshold). I never had the same problem with any of the other Trek series.

RexTalionis: GAT_00: RexTalionis: Janeway consistently sucked throughout the entire series.

Janeway was great later. She pissed me off early.

You and I will just have to agree to disagree, then. When it was running, I would often turn the TV off after DS9 and ignore Voyager. When I went back to Voyager years later, it took a lot of effort to get through the series (skipping over the most insanely bad episodes like Threshold). I never had the same problem with any of the other Trek series.

Agreed. Even the much hated Enterprise is, IMO, much better than Voyager.

rickythepenguin: the relatively unknown Obama was appointed to his seat,

Not quite. Her husband, Jack Ryan, was going to run against Obama, and was going to be formidable. When he dropped out, Alan Keyes stepped in. Obama wasn't "appointed" to the seat, it's just that his competition went from "tough" to "circus clown".

rickythepenguin: she's farking hot.

She is very beautiful and kind in person. I was nervous meeting her. A friend of mine in college was related to Tim Hagan, who was running for Governor of Ohio and also happens to be Kate Mulgrew's husband. My friend asked me if I wanted to go to a fundraiser because I love politics and I asked her if "the Captain" was going to be there. She reminded me multiple times that Kate despises Star Trek fans and not to bring it up. I wasn't counting on there being an open bar, though, so I definitely went full-blown Trekkie on her as my friend dragged me away, apologizing, heh.

I can tell you when I realized that Voyager utterly blows.

I was a massive Star Trek nerd as a kid. I was a huge fan of the original series, which I had VHS tapes of several episodes, and I read all the Star Trek books I could get my hands on. I watched TNG every night when it was syndicated on the local Fox Affiliate. However, I didn't have cable until 2001, so I couldn't watch the early seasons of DS9 and Voyager on UPN.

So, it was a rare treat when my parents took me to go on a 2 day trip/vacation to Niagara falls where we'd get to stay overnight at a hotel. This was in, I think, the summer of 1997. And, just so it happens, UPN was running reruns of Voyager. The episode was Macrocosm, about Janeway fighting a gigantic bacteria.

I started watching the episode with excitement. I turned it off 20 minutes later because it bites so completely and utterly.

Neelix and his damn girlfriend were terrible characters. They were enough to ruin this series by itself, but there were other problems on top of that. I would rather watch Beverly Crusher fall in love with a "ghost" a couple more times than watch anything with farkin' Neelix.

When the actor that played him showed up in First Contact, I wanted him to die as quickly as possible. Fortunately, his screen time was very brief.

DamnYankees: Even the much hated Enterprise is, IMO, much better than Voyager.

Watching some of the older episodes here and there on Sci-Fi or however the fark they have that networked named now, it was better than I remember.

GAT_00: DamnYankees: Even the much hated Enterprise is, IMO, much better than Voyager.

Watching some of the older episodes here and there on Sci-Fi or however the fark they have that networked named now, it was better than I remember.

Enterprise was good. Everyone just biatched about it because of the theme song (which I liked) or because of the fact that it's a prequel (big frikkin' deal) or that shiat doesn't match up with TOS (can you imagine making a TV show using candies glued to plyboard consoles like they did in TOS today?).

RexTalionis: GAT_00: DamnYankees: Even the much hated Enterprise is, IMO, much better than Voyager.

Watching some of the older episodes here and there on Sci-Fi or however the fark they have that networked named now, it was better than I remember.

Enterprise was good. Everyone just biatched about it because of the theme song (which I liked) or because of the fact that it's a prequel (big frikkin' deal) or that shiat doesn't match up with TOS (can you imagine making a TV show using candies glued to plyboard consoles like they did in TOS today?).

IIRC, the biggest complaint was Bakula. But I do love me some Bakula, even if he wasn't perfectly cast, he's just very watchable.

DamnYankees: RexTalionis: GAT_00: DamnYankees: Even the much hated Enterprise is, IMO, much better than Voyager.

Watching some of the older episodes here and there on Sci-Fi or however the fark they have that networked named now, it was better than I remember.

Enterprise was good. Everyone just biatched about it because of the theme song (which I liked) or because of the fact that it's a prequel (big frikkin' deal) or that shiat doesn't match up with TOS (can you imagine making a TV show using candies glued to plyboard consoles like they did in TOS today?).

IIRC, the biggest complaint was Bakula. But I do love me some Bakula, even if he wasn't perfectly cast, he's just very watchable.

I find that Dr. Phlox is just one of the most just plain likeable characters in all of Star Trek. That is astounding, considering that they spent 7 years on Voyager without getting a single likeable non-obnoxious character.

RexTalionis: I find that Dr. Phlox is just one of the most just plain likeable characters in all of Star Trek. That is astounding, considering that they spent 7 years on Voyager without getting a single likeable non-obnoxious character.

Absolutely. Phlox was great. I also really end up liking Trip and T'Pol.

gopher321: Voyager Doesn't Fully Utilize Its Premise


This x1000. They threw away the greatest possible storyline at the very beginning by making the 'Maquis' (?) into regular starfleet. What was the goddamn point in having them in the first place?

They moved away from the maquis problem in two-seconds. They did the same with the issues related to shortages of energy and supplies. While they had a couple of two-parters and some story archs they could have done more on that. they just wanted to close everything in an episode or two and move away from every alien they encountered (except for the kazon and borg) after a minute or two. True, TNG and TOS did this as well for the most part... but that's the problem... it had been done.

When you think about ships at sea traveling in convoys for safety, you'd think that Voyager would have taken any opportunity to tag along with any alien ships that were friendly and going the same way they were to enjoy safety in numbers. Really the premise on the Void when they form a coalition of ships should have been the premise for the show with ships and aliens entering and leaving their side as they reached their destinations on the way.

They could have developed story archs of several episodes while these temporary alliances lasted to develop these cultures. They could have done this with the Trebe and wrestle with the morality of forming an alliance with the descendants of the guys that oppressed the Kazon (but voyager finds out they are still a-holes after an episode). The xenophobic aliens that lived in the genrational ship that broke up. You'd think a few of the ships that broke away from that society to explore the galaxy instead of staying with their people wouldn't mind going in the same direction as Voyager for a while. But they just go away. The aliens that tried to steal Voyager's warp core after the Borg destroyed their planet. They could have tagged along with Voyager for a few episodes while they found a new place to set up a colony.

By having Voyager add other ships and be part of a fleet, they could have relied less on deus ex machina technolgy and overcome problems with the help of established allies.

MeinRS6: Neelix and his damn girlfriend were terrible characters. They were enough to ruin this series by itself, but there were other problems on top of that. I would rather watch Beverly Crusher fall in love with a "ghost" a couple more times than watch anything with farkin' Neelix.

When the actor that played him showed up in First Contact, I wanted him to die as quickly as possible. Fortunately, his screen time was very brief.

Neelix was to Voyager what the computer was to TNG, He's there to give information as an expositionary voice

Have to disagree on Enterprise, easily the weakest of the series. Why, when you now have the premise that humanity is taking it's first faltering steps into the vast (from their perspective) unexplored universe would you go to an overarching time travel plot line in the first farking season? I was fine with the series when the writers would really get into the idea of the crew encountering species, civilizations, and phenomena for which they were woefully unprepared. That's what should happen to bold explorers. But the constant default back to the Time War (or whatever the fark it was called) really just reeked of bad writing. I was find with Bakula and couldn't care less about the theme song, but the whole series seemed like a huge wasted opportunity for good storytelling.

ArkAngel: MeinRS6: Neelix and his damn girlfriend were terrible characters. They were enough to ruin this series by itself, but there were other problems on top of that. I would rather watch Beverly Crusher fall in love with a "ghost" a couple more times than watch anything with farkin' Neelix.

When the actor that played him showed up in First Contact, I wanted him to die as quickly as possible. Fortunately, his screen time was very brief.

Neelix was to Voyager what the computer was to TNG, He's there to give information as an expositionary voice

Maybe. What a terrible role to have. Neelix was like the weaker sister, or how the writers viewed their own audience. Or maybe Neelix was one of the writers' alter ego. Like Harold Perrineau/Link in the Matrix movies, he becomes completely unlikeable because of what the writers ask him to do.

veedeevadeevoodee: / that is all

I think this is a case where the coplayer does it better....

The Stealth Hippopotamus: veedeevadeevoodee: / that is all

I think this is a case where the coplayer does it better....

[img16.imageshack.us image 640x983]
[img209.imageshack.us image 105x150]
[img861.imageshack.us image 105x150]

But she's using a TNG era phaser!

Yeah, yeah, nerd, I know.

Here's what I remember from Voyager:

B'Elanna Torres: "I'm angry and childish because I'm part Klingon!"

Tom Paris: "I masturbate to the legacy of James T. Kirk. Wasn't he awesome?"

The Doctor: "I'm cantankerous!"

Neelix: "I'm here to show all the dumpy, socially inept Star Trek fans that they too can get an impossibly hot girlfriend."

RexTalionis: find that Dr. Phlox is just one of the most just plain likeable characters in all of Star Trek.

We're going to have to agree to disagree again. He annoyed the fark out of me. T'Pol was fine every once in a while, but she was too stiff-necked, too slow to think of anything unique. Trip was good.

gopher321: Voyager Doesn't Fully Utilize Its Premise


This x1000. They threw away the greatest possible storyline at the very beginning by making the 'Maquis' (?) into regular starfleet. What was the goddamn point in having them in the first place?

Generation_D: More Rick Berman = Less Good.

You did this too, Rick Berman? Stop wasting my time!

RexTalionis: I find that Dr. Phlox is just one of the most just plain likeable characters in all of Star Trek.

Either way, he was probably the best doctor on Star Trek. Voyager was only as good as his programming. Bones was excellent, but face it Phlox did a hell of a lot better with technology 100 years in the past.. Beverly Crusher just used her fancy toys. Julian Bashir, I forget what he has done of note.

Makh: Julian Bashir, I forget what he has done of note.

Genetically engineered to be the best doctor of his class.

I liked Bellana Torres more than Seven but Seven was an interesting character, even beyond her tits.

But everyone else was rather boring.

As for Enterprise. It's not nearly as bad as people say it is. For one thing, it was the only series outside the original that didn't completely suck in its first two seasons. Say what you want about Rick Berman and maybe he eventually farked things up but the Next Generation under Roddenberry in its first season was a farking abortion. DS9 (the best Trek series, IMO) was pretty hard to watch in its first couple seasons as well. And Enterprise was just getting really good when they pulled the plug.

GAT_00: Genetically engineered to be the best doctor of his class.

And Chief O' Brien's long term "companion" in the holosuite.

/nttawwt