As someone that has dealt with China as a vendor/manufacturer for 20+ years I can only say this - they ain't shiat when it comes to quality, and until they experience a major cultural change they will always produce complete crap unless you hold a gun to their head.

They are the land of shortcuts that don't work and have no pride in their work. The typical Chinese manufacturer will screw their customer over in order to save a penny in a heartbeat.

LordZorch: The typical Chinese manufacturer will screw their customer over in order to save a penny in a heartbeat.

I'm pretty sure they screw their workers over even harder and faster than that.

LordZorch: As someone that has dealt with China as a vendor/manufacturer for 20+ years I can only say this - they ain't shiat when it comes to quality, and until they experience a major cultural change they will always produce complete crap unless you hold a gun to their head.

They are the land of shortcuts that don't work and have no pride in their work. The typical Chinese manufacturer will screw their customer over in order to save a penny in a heartbeat.

Could you add a relevant anecdote?

So how's that gonna work? Are we gonna pay twice as much for something that will only last four times as long?

I don't think Americans are going to go for that. Cash flow is king.

Party Boy: LordZorch: As someone that has dealt with China as a vendor/manufacturer for 20+ years I can only say this - they ain't shiat when it comes to quality, and until they experience a major cultural change they will always produce complete crap unless you hold a gun to their head.

They are the land of shortcuts that don't work and have no pride in their work. The typical Chinese manufacturer will screw their customer over in order to save a penny in a heartbeat.

Could you add a relevant anecdote?

and maybe a csb

shanrick: and maybe a csb

opp

That article was a real steaming pile of sh*t.

All it did was talk about how awesome China was, how much awesomer it's becoming, and how the US should be happy they aren't getting their ass kicked worse. The reality is, now matter what happens...the US can go back to manufacturing cheap plastic junk at home, but the Chinese still will never be able to grow enough food to feed their population.

Here's the truth:

Any Chinese economic growth will be severely limited by: their natural resources, cultural inability to innovate, closed govt, dishonest govt, the state of their environment, and overall scorched-earth approach they take towards business, the economy, and product quality.

An apt analogy for China and its place in the manufacturing process would be:

China is basically a Kinkos that prints American documents on German printers, ships them to market on Norwegian ships powered by Saudi oil and manned by Koreans.

China is easily replaced in the product chain, and eventually they will be.

It may be coming to an end because China's economy is coming up on a big collapse. Of course, that could end up with a continuation of cheap Chinese crap if it collapses right.

GAT_00: It may be coming to an end because China's economy is coming up on a big collapse. Of course, that could end up with a continuation of cheap Chinese crap if it collapses right.

China is going to collapse like Enron did because their economy and nation is build on an Enron-like structure. In the US, our national debt is shown in bright numbers in Times Square. In China, the national "debt" is basically only part of the story. Instead of govt agencies, they utilize state-owned businesses for many things. Instead of the DOT getting money from congress to build a road and adding that to the national budget, the Chinese govt can just tell a state-owned business to build it by borrowing money from a state-owned bank or by using funny money from their "fed".

The real problem that will eventually come to light is that we'll find out all these state-owned businesses are basically where the debt and bad investments are hidden. Much like Enron, the housing bubble, and any other bubble or Ponzi scheme, the game can only continue if it's growing. That is why you see their state-owned entities build entire cities... they have to keep moving or it will all grind to a halt.

We've seen the shenanigans our govt officials do to hide debt and pass off bad investments... now imagine they have 5,000 "companies" that can all be used like Fannie and Freddie. They just absorb all the sh*t to keep it off the govt's books.

Just watch.

Party Boy: LordZorch: As someone that has dealt with China as a vendor/manufacturer for 20+ years I can only say this - they ain't shiat when it comes to quality, and until they experience a major cultural change they will always produce complete crap unless you hold a gun to their head.

They are the land of shortcuts that don't work and have no pride in their work. The typical Chinese manufacturer will screw their customer over in order to save a penny in a heartbeat.

Could you add a relevant anecdote?

I can. My brother works for a manufacturer that makes (among other things) brass fittings. They needed to move an American metallurgist to the factory in China so he could test EVERY batch of brass for its metal content. Adding a touch more or less zinc could save them tenths of pennies, maybe a few thousand dollars a year, and cause the failure rate to skyrocket, sometimes with disastrous results when it came to high pressure applications.
.

Britney Spear's Speculum: but the Chinese still will never be able to grow enough food to feed their population.

China is also massively inefficient in growing food, due to terrible land quality, crops that need more water (rice), a water table that is quickly falling, and a quickly encroaching desert. China's desert is doubling every 20 years, and it had a lot of desert before. China is quickly turning into a massive environmental disaster area, and it isn't fixable. They've done in 30 years what we did in 200, and doing so with 10 times the population as we had at comparable development levels. The damage is massive.

Yet the GOP wants to end the EPA, because that will fix everything.

Britney Spear's Speculum: QFT

Food > Cheap crap > Tebow

That's what I mean. They can talk all the sh*t they want. When they stop filling containers full of happy-meal toys, we can stop filling containers full of wheat, corn, and soy.

We'll see who feels the pressure faster.

Cubansaltyballs: China is going to collapse like Enron did because their economy and nation is build on an Enron-like structure. In the US, our national debt is shown in bright numbers in Times Square.

That's not even the real problem. All their development is repairs shiatty construction, and massive housing expansion, because that's the best return on investment. There are entire towns designed for more than a million people where all the houses are just bought for investment. That's China's growth. It's our housing bubble but somehow worse, just without the subprime stuff.

R.A.Danny: I can. My brother works for a manufacturer that makes (among other things) brass fittings. They needed to move an American metallurgist to the factory in China so he could test EVERY batch of brass for its metal content. Adding a touch more or less zinc could save them tenths of pennies, maybe a few thousand dollars a year, and cause the failure rate to skyrocket, sometimes with disastrous results when it came to high pressure applications.
.


One day someone will do the math and realize it's a wash or possibly cheaper just to produce a widget here for $500.00 instead of there for $50.00 when you factor in the 3-week lead-time, losses for QA faults, shipping costs, extra QA personnel.

After awhile it adds up, and for a lot of places the cost of business in China will be the same as in America... but with more headaches and more communists.

Cubansaltyballs: R.A.Danny: I can. My brother works for a manufacturer that makes (among other things) brass fittings. They needed to move an American metallurgist to the factory in China so he could test EVERY batch of brass for its metal content. Adding a touch more or less zinc could save them tenths of pennies, maybe a few thousand dollars a year, and cause the failure rate to skyrocket, sometimes with disastrous results when it came to high pressure applications.

One day someone will do the math and realize it's a wash or possibly cheaper just to produce a widget here for $500.00 instead of there for $50.00 when you factor in the 3-week lead-time, losses for QA faults, shipping costs, extra QA personnel.

After awhile it adds up, and for a lot of places the cost of business in China will be the same as in America... but with more headaches and more communists.

Which is also why China is fighting properly floating their currency, because if they had a fair currency, the borderline savings from China today will quickly swing to a net loss.

GAT_00: Which is also why China is fighting properly floating their currency, because if they had a fair currency, the borderline savings from China today will quickly swing to a net loss.

The other reason is, if it were a proper currency, it would collapse when they find the skeletons in the closet. They need to control the currency to keep inflation from spiraling out of control.

Cubansaltyballs: One day someone will do the math and realize it's a wash or possibly cheaper just to produce a widget here for $500.00 instead of there for $50.00 when you factor in the 3-week lead-time, losses for QA faults, shipping costs, extra QA personnel.

They are in the process of moving some production here, some to other countries, and some to more reliable Chinese vendors. There is no competing with the Chinese on price, and when a company is dependent on getting their product being sold at big box stores, they bow to the pressure to move overseas.

Cubansaltyballs: GAT_00: Which is also why China is fighting properly floating their currency, because if they had a fair currency, the borderline savings from China today will quickly swing to a net loss.

The other reason is, if it were a proper currency, it would collapse when they find the skeletons in the closet. They need to control the currency to keep inflation from spiraling out of control.

Hell, it's at what, 10%, and they have it tighted down pretty good.

I thought that suicide nets were cheap? What gives?

Heh. In my own small business it's been a fairly easy enough goal to work towards eliminating imported goods. In fact, my cost of goods has actually gone down in some cases. California-grown roses are actually cheaper than those grown in Ecuador or Columbia. The Dollar Store sells a lot of American-made glassware and recycled pottery is in vogue right now.

This article reads like a Chinese citizen trying to sell a book. His selling point is that he's a 'patriotic american'. Yeah, whatever. Why not be honest about the country you are defending? Oh, right.


Cubansaltyballs: That article was a real steaming pile of sh*t.

All it did was talk about how awesome China was, how much awesomer it's becoming, and how the US should be happy they aren't getting their ass kicked worse. The reality is, now matter what happens...the US can go back to manufacturing cheap plastic junk at home, but the Chinese still will never be able to grow enough food to feed their population.

Glad I'm not alone, here.

iamrex: Heh. In my own small business it's been a fairly easy enough goal to work towards eliminating imported goods. In fact, my cost of goods has actually gone down in some cases. California-grown roses are actually cheaper than those grown in Ecuador or Columbia. The Dollar Store sells a lot of American-made glassware and recycled pottery is in vogue right now.

I actually noticed today, that at Walmart I saw a lot more American made stuff. I can't remember the last time I saw American made dinnerware or cooking utensils there. Anchor has always been there, but now they have some Mainstays spatulas, Corelle dinnerware sets, and whatnot all made in the USA.

I know it's not much, but it's still a good shift in direction.

Nadie_AZ: This article reads like a Chinese citizen trying to sell a book. His selling point is that he's a 'patriotic american'. Yeah, whatever. Why not be honest about the country you are defending? Oh, right.

Basically, yeah. If you've ever spent any time in the region, this is how all the TV shows and media operate.

CNBC that airs in Hong Kong basically just talks about how awesome and wonderful China is. When some guy (usually British) says anything about China other than "China is the master race and they own everything east of Hawaii and north of Australia by divine right", they get blasted instantaneously by everyone else on the panel.

When one guy was saying their GDP growth wasn't that impressive because the numbers are suspect and growing from a $22.00 economy to a $4tril one isn't that hard with 1.3bil people... he got blasted. It reminded me of watching Obama go on the Oreilly factor.

R.A.Danny: I can. My brother works for a manufacturer that makes (among other things) brass fittings. They needed to move an American metallurgist to the factory in China so he could test EVERY batch of brass for its metal content. Adding a touch more or less zinc could save them tenths of pennies, maybe a few thousand dollars a year, and cause the failure rate to skyrocket, sometimes with disastrous results when it came to high pressure applications.

Yeah, their foundries are pretty bad. For steel/iron castings, one supplier said that for every 10 castings they ordered, 1 was good, 3 would work, 3 would be repairable and 3 would be scrap.

/used to work in turbomachinery doing NDT

Cubansaltyballs: China is the master race and they own everything east of Hawaii and north of Australia by divine right

It's called The Middle Kingdom, or Middle Kingdom Syndrome. And yes, they do believe that everyone should bend over and give them whatever they want, because they're better than everyone else. It's like Manifest Destiny mixed in with a little racial purity, and then pumped up maybe beyond what we ever had.

Harry_Seldon: What China has done in 30 years is an absolute economic miracle. Of course, the 30 previous years were an absolute economic nightmare The century before that was criminal exploitation at it most heinous by various imperial powers.

No. It wasn't a miracle. If you are willing to scorch the earth, nothing is out of reach.

If we were willing to scorch the earth, we could double our GDP in a matter of 2-3 years. The problem is, it couldn't be sustained for long. In a matter of years our GDP would go from $30tril to $10tril.

You could also try this experiment on an individual level... You could turn your house into a Molotov cocktail proving ground for $50 a bottle. You'd make out like a bandit on day one. Day two... maybe. Day three... you're homeless and have $500 to your name.

Harry_Seldon: GAT_00: It's called The Middle Kingdom, or Middle Kingdom Syndrome

Is this really such a bad thing?

Ask Tree-Beard how it worked out.

Harry_Seldon: GAT_00: It's called The Middle Kingdom, or Middle Kingdom Syndrome

Is this really such a bad thing?

Like I said, if we did it, we call it Manifest Destiny. But Manifest Destiny was more about might makes us right. The Middle Kingdom stuff is more that they have a genetic superiority, and that we should give them what they want, no matter if it's good for us or not, because they are the superior humans. Manifest Destiny wasn't quite that bad.