Republicans are playing this one for all it's worth, which isn't much

hillbillypharmacist: Marcus Aurelius: After all, if our government didn't sell them weapons, there is simply no other way for them to obtain virtuallly anything they want via the open market.

Gun control laws don't work because anything can be gotten on the black market. Conversely, the Taxbama Administration is responsible for dozens of deaths because they put guns in these peoples' hands.

I have to admit I'm getting a kick on having these folks argue out of both sides of their faces while frothing about a conspiracy to take away guns from an Administration who hasn't pushed any legislation to ban them.

GAT_00: If the problem with Fast and Furious is that American guns got to drug cartels, and Wide Receiver got American guns to drug cartels, I think we're looking at pretty much the same thing. Just because it had better intent doesn't mean it didn't do the same thing.

No we aren't. The Bush era program had tracking the guns in place, the Mexican authorities just let them slip. Fast and Furious didn't inform the Mexican authorities and there is a record of the Federal Agents watching the guns being told to just stop watching them for a while, then the guns disappeared.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Fast_and_Furious#Congressional _ investigation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wide_Receiver#2006.E2.88.92200 7 :_Operation_Wide_Receiver_and_other_probes

violentsalvation: GAT_00: violentsalvation: the guns were never intended to walk all the way to the cartels.

If the problem with Fast and Furious is that American guns got to drug cartels, and Wide Receiver got American guns to drug cartels, I think we're looking at pretty much the same thing. Just because it had better intent doesn't mean it didn't do the same thing.

Saying it wasn't designed to do that so it shouldn't get the same blame is like saying nobody meant for New Orleans to go underwater and let 1,000 people die so nobody should be blamed.

It deserves scrutiny and it was a failure, but they are apple and oranges. Wide Receiver was intended to be a controlled delivery, where the guns were to be tracked every step of the way and once delivered in Mexico the receiver was to be arrested and the guns seized. Wide Receiver at least resembled actual police work.

Don't use logic with GAT or prove him wrong... he'll just fade away from the thread and show up in the next one

TravisBickle62: Republicans are playing this one for all it's worth, which isn't much

Yeah, death and crimes arent much at all.

TravisBickle62: Republicans are playing this one for all it's worth, which isn't much

It's worth quite a bit.

/Not a Republican

vernonFL: #1 Mexican authorities were informed, they were in on it and they were supposed to intercept the weapons, they did not.

Because if there is anyone you can trust, its the Mexican authorities.

It's logically assumed by nearly everyone, but not you, that negotiating with a recognized government is preferable to negotiating with cartels. You deserve your very own "Florida" tag.

badhatharry: Remember when Mexican authorities accused the US of allowing guns to illegally flow into Mexico. I thought they were full of shiat. It turns out our government is the corrupt one.

Can't they both be corrupt?

A little humble pie for somone who was not long ago arguing for a return of the AWB because of all those damn guns going to Mexico? I would like it better if that Pie had a pink slip at the bottom of it.

PreMortem: Why hasn't "Operation Wide Receiver" recieved such scrutiny?

Because the Attorney General didn't lie to Congress about it?

Holder will be shiatcanned before the campaign season gets into full swing. Good thing too.

GAT_00: violentsalvation: the guns were never intended to walk all the way to the cartels.

If the problem with Fast and Furious is that American guns got to drug cartels, and Wide Receiver got American guns to drug cartels, I think we're looking at pretty much the same thing. Just because it had better intent doesn't mean it didn't do the same thing.

Saying it wasn't designed to do that so it shouldn't get the same blame is like saying nobody meant for New Orleans to go underwater and let 1,000 people die so nobody should be blamed.

I'm guessing you don't mean Kathleen Blanco and Ray Nagin.

/Just a guess.

I can't imagine Mexico had guns, armored vehicles, and even submarines prior to Eric Holder -- why, I can't even remember any south of the border drug violence prior to 2008 at all!

Don't I remember hearing all sorts of hoopla from this admin about how something like 90% of guns recovered from criminals in Mexico came from the US? Discounting the fact that they conveniently left out the words "that could be traced", maybe they got their statistics by just tracking the straw purchases they encouraged.

depmode98: I can't imagine Mexico had guns, armored vehicles, and even submarines prior to Eric Holder -- why, I can't even remember any south of the border drug violence prior to 2008 at all!

Do you always suggest that the best medicine for the drunk bum is to always go buy him another 5th of Makers Mark?

No one cares much about this because Americans aren't upset by more guns available and more dead mexicans. Otherwise this shiat would be splodin' y'all!

TravisBickle62: Republicans are playing this one for all it's worth, which isn't much

If your major interest in this issue is how much political fodder it can be made into, then you're an ass. I don't care who in what party/administration this traces to, they should be prosecuted to the extent possible, including any career bureaucrats who were involved in this fiasco.

HeadLever: depmode98: I can't imagine Mexico had guns, armored vehicles, and even submarines prior to Eric Holder -- why, I can't even remember any south of the border drug violence prior to 2008 at all!

Do you always suggest that the best medicine for the drunk bum is to always go buy him another 5th of Makers Mark?

Its cruel to deny any man Makers Mark.

Rikaloff on the other hand....

TravisBickle62: Republicans are playing this one for all it's worth, which isn't much

GOP: Look at this awful thing we did! Aren't you mad at Obama for not stopping it!!

R.A.Danny: Fart_Machine: hillbillypharmacist: Marcus Aurelius: After all, if our government didn't sell them weapons, there is simply no other way for them to obtain virtuallly anything they want via the open market.

Gun control laws don't work because anything can be gotten on the black market. Conversely, the Taxbama Administration is responsible for dozens of deaths because they put guns in these peoples' hands.

I have to admit I'm getting a kick on having these folks argue out of both sides of their faces while frothing about a conspiracy to take away guns from an Administration who hasn't pushed any legislation to ban them.

Obama's administration (and its ineptness) has done more to guarantee gun rights than anything Bush ever did. Obama can't even bring up the subject after this.

Because it was such a huge issue with them before.

R.A.Danny: Fart_Machine: R.A.Danny: Fart_Machine: hillbillypharmacist: Marcus Aurelius: After all, if our government didn't sell them weapons, there is simply no other way for them to obtain virtuallly anything they want via the open market.

Gun control laws don't work because anything can be gotten on the black market. Conversely, the Taxbama Administration is responsible for dozens of deaths because they put guns in these peoples' hands.

I have to admit I'm getting a kick on having these folks argue out of both sides of their faces while frothing about a conspiracy to take away guns from an Administration who hasn't pushed any legislation to ban them.

Obama's administration (and its ineptness) has done more to guarantee gun rights than anything Bush ever did. Obama can't even bring up the subject after this.

Because it was such a huge issue with them before.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-57338546-10391695/documents-atf - used-fast-and-furious-to-make-the-case-for-gun-regulations/

Because the ATF making the case is the same as the Administration pushing for more gun control. Fascinating.

Flargan: Its cruel to deny any man Makers Mark.

I would argue that Knob Creek is better, and Basil Hayden's even better than that

Hot Lunch: Flargan: Its cruel to deny any man Makers Mark.

I would argue that Knob Creek is better, and Basil Hayden's even better than that

Agreed,

fark this guy. He closed down the pot clubs in my hood because they were "too close to a school."

Never mind the liquor stores, bars, needle exchange, drug pushers, occasional shootings... it's the pot clubs that are endangering children.

GAT_00: violentsalvation: the guns were never intended to walk all the way to the cartels.

If the problem with Fast and Furious is that American guns got to drug cartels, and Wide Receiver got American guns to drug cartels, I think we're looking at pretty much the same thing. Just because it had better intent doesn't mean it didn't do the same thing.

Saying it wasn't designed to do that so it shouldn't get the same blame is like saying nobody meant for New Orleans to go underwater and let 1,000 people die so nobody should be blamed.

If I loan you a car and you fail to put on your seatbelt, and I don't explicitly remind you, I'm partially to blame.
If I loan you a car and you find out that I've secretly cut through 95% of the seatbelt...

Well I think you can see the difference. That you choose not to is idiotic.

Fast and furious did exactly what it said it would. They lost the guns fast and the response was furious.

Can everyone just agree this was a dumb farking idea? I don't even understand why the ATF exists, or why the DEA exists. In Britain we have two branches of secret service (inland and outland) and then we have the police, for everything else.

In America, you have the CIA and FBI, which I guess I can understand. And then you have the ATF and the DEA. And those are just the ones I can name. Oh wait, you have homeland security as well.

If you want to cut spending, maybe you shold merge all those farking agencies. And the NDAA wants to add another farking agency (think about it, if the army is operating within the US, it's also going to be fighting for justification).

How come the Republicans aren't fighting to merge all your policing authorities into more managable entities? That's what a business would do. Why do Republicans hate business?

kim jong-un: If I loan you a car and you fail to put on your seatbelt, and I don't explicitly remind you, I'm partially to blame.

No you're not. Well, maybe in America you are. Kind of like how your chainsaws have to have a warning label saying "not to be used for shaving".

/hyperbole
//but accurate