Big deal. Aren't we over the "everyone in the military is a hero so we should build a golden shrine for them every time they take a dump" mentality yet?

News flash: being too dumb to get into college doesn't automatically make you a hero. Put on your uniform, march around for a few years, and then slide into your inevitable job of driving a truck or managing a section of Wal-Mart while the rest of us actually accomplish something. In the meantime, don't waste my tax money with fancy little ceremonies and velvet caskets for arms and legs.

xl5150
you sound really fun to be around .plonk

xl5150: Big deal. Aren't we over the "everyone in the military is a hero so we should build a golden shrine for them every time they take a dump" mentality yet?

News flash: being too dumb to get into college doesn't automatically make you a hero. Put on your uniform, march around for a few years, and then slide into your inevitable job of driving a truck or managing a section of Wal-Mart while the rest of us actually accomplish something. In the meantime, don't waste my tax money with fancy little ceremonies and velvet caskets for arms and legs.

I just puked a little in my mouth

/def 10/10

DNRTFA. However, people who make a big whoop over cremains are a little creepy. Who gives a shiat where they are? Those ashes you sprinkled on dear old dad's favorite mountain? Peed on by some critter.

Honor the person's memory and spend less time getting indignant over the fate of the bio-bits.

This story is being twisted beyond recognition of the original facts. Unless new evidence has been uncovered, they did not dispose of entire bodies. They disposed of cremated body PARTS, such as arms and legs that were amputated, and they had the permission of the service members or family in advance.

snuffy: why is this even possible?

when you get down to it, for this to happen, no one really give a damn.

honor and dignity is just lip service from a gutless hollow government.

take note those of you who are thinking of giving your all.

Who do you expect the U.S. Air Force to bury in a landfill if not U.S. servicemen?

So, for those of you who think this is no big deal: Why is it that bin Laden got a burial at sea, but they couldn't be arsed to find a way to dispose of the remains of our own in a way that doesn't cost a lot but still treats them with some respect?

I brought it up in a previous thread, but why not a field set aside for the purpose? Scatter the ashes there, put up a plaque, plant some flowers and there you go!

gh0strid3r: This story is being twisted beyond recognition of the original facts. Unless new evidence has been uncovered, they did not dispose of entire bodies. They disposed of cremated body PARTS, such as arms and legs that were amputated, and they had the permission of the service members or family in advance.

FTFA : "...families who had authorized the military to dispose of the remains in a dignified and respectful manner..."

Landfills do not qualify as dignified and respectful. I imagine the families imagined something more like cremation en masse with the ashes scattered in a cemetery. This is the practice used by most medical schools for unwanted or John Doe cadavers after lab use.

Also nothing in the article says these were amputated body parts, if by amputated you mean surgically. Rather it appears to indicate these were parts that had become separated from other remains of casualties. Combat death being what it is, sometimes smaller bits get separated from bigger bits.Sometimes small bits of one guy are indistinguishable from small bits of six other guys. Again, mass cremation scattering ashes in a cemetery or at sea.

RhinoCat: gh0strid3r: This story is being twisted beyond recognition of the original facts. Unless new evidence has been uncovered, they did not dispose of entire bodies. They disposed of cremated body PARTS, such as arms and legs that were amputated, and they had the permission of the service members or family in advance.

FTFA : "...families who had authorized the military to dispose of the remains in a dignified and respectful manner..."

Landfills do not qualify as dignified and respectful. I imagine the families imagined something more like cremation en masse with the ashes scattered in a cemetery. This is the practice used by most medical schools for unwanted or John Doe cadavers after lab use.

Also nothing in the article says these were amputated body parts, if by amputated you mean surgically. Rather it appears to indicate these were parts that had become separated from other remains of casualties. Combat death being what it is, sometimes smaller bits get separated from bigger bits.Sometimes small bits of one guy are indistinguishable from small bits of six other guys. Again, mass cremation scattering ashes in a cemetery or at sea.

Like I said... the story is being twisted. If you do a little research and find the original stories, it's just body parts. Consider the source of this followup story. If they told you it was just parts, would you care? Probably not, so they don't get good ratings. They're only going to tell you enough to get you all upset so you'll keep reading and be more likely to click on one of their sponsor ads.

Sorry, but if I got my leg blown off in combat, I wouldn't want to keep it any more than I would keep my appendix if it had to be removed. I wouldn't give it a funeral either. It's just a part. I admit it's an important part, and I'm sure I would be devastated, but what do you expect them to do with it?

/Desert Storm Veteran

I remember reading somewhere, sadly I can't remember where, that much can be said about a culture by examining how it treats it's dead. What does *this* act say about us when we throw the remains of men and women that have given their life for their nation in the same hole as last weeks rotten leftovers.

As far as I am concerned (for me not anyone else) the body is just a medium for the soul. What you do with it after death is irrelevant.

amindofiron: I remember reading somewhere, sadly I can't remember where, that much can be said about a culture by examining how it treats it's dead. What does *this* act say about us when we throw the remains of men and women that have given their life for their nation in the same hole as last weeks rotten leftovers.

FTFY

it doesn't matter what they did with their lives, in most cases it is disrespectful to treat remains that way.

(and I say most for the people who are like I don't care, toss me/my loved ones in the trash when I'm/they're dead)

snuffy: honor and dignity is just lip service from a gutless hollow government.

FALSTAFF: 'Tis not due yet. I would be loath to pay Him before His day. What need I be so forward with Him that calls not on me? Well, 'tis no matter. Honour pricks me on. Yea, but how if honor prick me off when I come on? How then? Can honor set to a leg? no. Or an arm? no. Or take away the grief of a wound? No. Honor hath no skill in surgery, then? No. What is honor? A word. What is in that word "honor"? What is that "honor"? Air. A trim reckoning. Who hath it? He that died o' Wednesday. Doth he feel it? No. Doth he hear it? No. 'Tis insensible, then? Yea, to the dead. But will it not live with the living? No. Why? Detraction will not suffer it. Therefore, I'll none of it. Honor is a mere scutcheon. And so ends my catechism.
- Henry IV, Part 1

gh0strid3r: This story is being twisted beyond recognition of the original facts. Unless new evidence has been uncovered, they did not dispose of entire bodies. They disposed of cremated body PARTS, such as arms and legs that were amputated, and they had the permission of the service members or family in advance.

I'm a bit fascinated by this, as it sounds like an incarnation of the Ship of Theseus Paradox.

If a person has a leg amputated, the leg is not "remains". It generally not only has no social value, it generally IS a "kill it with fire" response. You don't send a leg to a funeral home. You don't store it so it can be buried with you. You don't have it cremated and kept in an urn, even if it's YOUR leg.

But if a person dies in an accident, all these parts ARE considered the "remains". If a person was mortally injured in an accident, a limb amputated surgically while trying to save them, the limb might be included in "remains". Or might not... there's really no telling at what point it transubstantiates from "gross, get rid of that thing!" to "memory of loved one".

But the perceived significance of this discarded body part DOES transubstantiate IF the person it's no longer attached to dies soon afterwards.

I suppose a head would never NOT be "remains". Not if it's impossible for the body to survive without it.

Oznog: I suppose a head would never NOT be "remains". Not if it's impossible for the body to survive without it.

My mother is a fish.

Oznog: gh0strid3r: This story is being twisted beyond recognition of the original facts. Unless new evidence has been uncovered, they did not dispose of entire bodies. They disposed of cremated body PARTS, such as arms and legs that were amputated, and they had the permission of the service members or family in advance.

I'm a bit fascinated by this, as it sounds like an incarnation of the Ship of Theseus Paradox.

If a person has a leg amputated, the leg is not "remains". It generally not only has no social value, it generally IS a "kill it with fire" response. You don't send a leg to a funeral home. You don't store it so it can be buried with you. You don't have it cremated and kept in an urn, even if it's YOUR leg.

But if a person dies in an accident, all these parts ARE considered the "remains". If a person was mortally injured in an accident, a limb amputated surgically while trying to save them, the limb might be included in "remains". Or might not... there's really no telling at what point it transubstantiates from "gross, get rid of that thing!" to "memory of loved one".

But the perceived significance of this discarded body part DOES transubstantiate IF the person it's no longer attached to dies soon afterwards.

I suppose a head would never NOT be "remains". Not if it's impossible for the body to survive without it.

Very interesting point.

I just want to point out that if you read the article, further down it clearly states that there have been 1762 unidentifiable body 'fragments' and 976 parts of 274 personnel.

While some of these may have been merely amputated limbs, other fragments are from bodies completely blown apart.

These were people.

General Sickles kept his leg. That leg can still be seen today, or so I've heard. Think Gettysberg.

Xai: I just want to point out that if you read the article, further down it clearly states that there have been 1762 unidentifiable body 'fragments' and 976 parts of 274 personnel.

While some of these may have been merely amputated limbs, other fragments are from bodies completely blown apart.

These were people.

Parts and fragments are not people. If they were, there would be a lot of funerals for gall bladders, appendixes, wisdom teeth, etc.

And don't forget... they only disposed of these parts and fragments AFTER getting approval from the service members or their families.

USA USA USA!

xl5150: Big deal. Aren't we over the "everyone in the military is a hero so we should build a golden shrine for them every time they take a dump" mentality yet?

News flash: being too dumb to get into college doesn't automatically make you a hero. Put on your uniform, march around for a few years, and then slide into your inevitable job of driving a truck or managing a section of Wal-Mart while the rest of us actually accomplish something. In the meantime, don't waste my tax money with fancy little ceremonies and velvet caskets for arms and legs.

THIS.
/USAF Vet.

Oznog:
If a person has a leg amputated, the leg is not "remains". It generally not only has no social value, it generally IS a "kill it with fire" response. You don't send a leg to a funeral home. You don't store it so it can be buried with you. You don't have it cremated and kept in an urn, even if it's YOUR leg.


Unless you are Jewish or some denomination of Christian that believes in resurrection of body.

There are no people in fingernails and elbow skins. Stupid sentiment is a bad enough thing than to burden the rest of us with.

The government doesn't respect its servicemen while they're alive, why would they respect their bodies after they're dead? Anyone who is surprised by this is an idiot.

xl5150: Big deal. Aren't we over the "everyone in the military is a hero so we should build a golden shrine for them every time they take a dump" mentality yet?

News flash: being too dumb to get into college doesn't automatically make you a hero. Put on your uniform, march around for a few years, and then slide into your inevitable job of driving a truck or managing a section of Wal-Mart while the rest of us actually accomplish something. In the meantime, don't waste my tax money with fancy little ceremonies and velvet caskets for arms and legs.

Yeah, because all those service college programs and people leaving the military with government paid bachelor's and master's degrees (enlisted not just officer) don't amount to anything, right?


/nice troll though, 9/10

As a funeral director with 26 years in the business, I find it repugnant to knowingly place cremated remains (residual matter of the bones, all muscle, tissue and flesh are consumed in the cremation process) in a bio-medical waste container of any human being. Those cremated remains should be scattered at sea or properly placed at a cemetery (and always with the consent of the person if they are alive to do so or the next of kin.). I do not take issue with co-mingling such cremated remains as long and the details of the entire process is made available (keep in mind there are some people who do not want to know.) Individuals who endure an amputation should always have the option to make arrangements to retain their amputated limbs (i.e. in a cemetery) and have them placed with their body at the time of their final disposition (very few people will ever do that.) In the case of amputation at the time of death such as an automobile accident of for military personnel in combat I feel that the amputated limb should be chemically treated (embalmed) and reattached to the body or at least placed discreetly in the casket or for cremation without embalming placed in the cremation container so that the entire body remains together. Small pieces of indistinguishable body material that may be either from a individual or a combination of more than one person (military, combat; civilian severe automobile accident, explosion or major air craft accident) should be buried or cremated and scattered at sea or properly interred at a cemetery.

It would be very interesting to examine what the standard is in every hospital world wide as to what the general practice is with the civilian population. I suspect it would be most shocking as to how similar in might be to what happened in Dover. This practice, whatever it may be will be a result of the laws enacted when governing bodies may laws regulating the handling of "Biological Waste." Prior to that, everything went out with the regular trash and I would guess that in years gone by that might include limbs that were not even cremated.

Ultimately, someone in Dover made a very bad decision years ago and the damage cannot be undone. Accept it, correct it and move on.

How can this really surprise anyone anymore?

So a while back my husband was the casualty assistance officer to a woman whose husband had been killed in combat. One of the things he had to do was notify her if any parts were found ion the investigation (the guy had died in a helicopter crash). So my husband kept telling me all these details about it because he "wanted me to know in case it happened to him". Anyway, I was like "what do you mean parts!?" and he said if they find something (typically NOT an entire limb since those are usually found immediately) like a chunk of flesh or something then they make arrangements to have it sent to you. I told him that was gross and they better not. I love my husband, but if he died I don't want fleshy bits showing up and needing to be dealt with. By no means do I agree with just dumping it, and I suppose they ought to be offered to the family, but we aren't talking about people, or even limbs, we are talking about typically pretty small bits.

/CSS
//ew

xl5150: Big deal. Aren't we over the "everyone in the military is a hero so we should build a golden shrine for them every time they take a dump" mentality yet?

News flash: being too dumb to get into college doesn't automatically make you a hero. Put on your uniform, march around for a few years, and then slide into your inevitable job of driving a truck or managing a section of Wal-Mart while the rest of us actually accomplish something. In the meantime, don't waste my tax money with fancy little ceremonies and velvet caskets for arms and legs.

MEPS PDQ rage? Wish I had time for this "marching around" you speak of. To busy traveling the world and killing terrorists.

As for the process, this is why we need to kick civilians out of military operations. Civilians in the USAF belong to a union and pretty much have to kill someone to get fired. If I remember the article from last time it was two civilians who got reprimanded and the commander (who would oF course get reprimanded). I've been apart of the return process at Dover and its always the upmost respect is given.

Gee. I wonder what a large urban hospital does with its trimmings. Return them to the family ??

gh0strid3r: Sorry, but if I got my leg blown off in combat, I wouldn't want to keep it any more than I would keep my appendix if it had to be removed. I wouldn't give it a funeral either. It's just a part. I admit it's an important part, and I'm sure I would be devastated, but what do you expect them to do with it?


Inject it with some of them gov'ment chemicals and teach the damn thing to fight. You signed a contract. All of you. Just because your leg got blown off doesn't mean it gets to stop fighting.

RediixOne: xl5150: Big deal. Aren't we over the "everyone in the military is a hero so we should build a golden shrine for them every time they take a dump" mentality yet?

News flash: being too dumb to get into college doesn't automatically make you a hero. Put on your uniform, march around for a few years, and then slide into your inevitable job of driving a truck or managing a section of Wal-Mart while the rest of us actually accomplish something. In the meantime, don't waste my tax money with fancy little ceremonies and velvet caskets for arms and legs.

MEPS PDQ rage? Wish I had time for this "marching around" you speak of. To busy traveling the world and killing terrorists.

As for the process, this is why we need to kick civilians out of military operations. Civilians in the USAF belong to a union and pretty much have to kill someone to get fired. If I remember the article from last time it was two civilians who got reprimanded and the commander (who would oF course get reprimanded). I've been apart of the return process at Dover and its always the upmost respect is given.

Don't quote trolls, it just encourages them.

/thank you for your service

This is the sort of thing that somebody, at some point, should have said "we're doing what, again? Why?"

gh0strid3r: This story is being twisted beyond recognition of the original facts. Unless new evidence has been uncovered, they did not dispose of entire bodies. They disposed of cremated body PARTS, such as arms and legs that were amputated, and they had the permission of the service members or family in advance.

Gee. Someone who actually comprehends what the situation. Careful, you're on Fark here and there be dragons about.

/Needs more coffee

gh0strid3r: And don't forget... they only disposed of these parts and fragments AFTER getting approval from the service members or their families.

FTA: The landfill dumping was concealed from families who had authorized the military to dispose of the remains in a dignified and respectful manner

I don't think a landfill qualifies as dignified and respectful.

Aim High!

Troublesome Strumpet: gh0strid3r: And don't forget... they only disposed of these parts and fragments AFTER getting approval from the service members or their families.

FTA: The landfill dumping was concealed from families who had authorized the military to dispose of the remains in a dignified and respectful manner

I don't think a landfill qualifies as dignified and respectful.
What is? Putting them in the ground to rot? Why do we think of that as better? Like an above poster said, ifnyou sprinkle dads ashes on his favorite mountain he just gets pissed on by some critter. You think we should really create a giant memorial to people's parts? Against their family wishes no less? Gross. Honestly there isn't a much more respectful way to deal with it. I'm sure my breast tumor ended up in a landfill somewhere and I don't give an ef.

gh0strid3r:
This story is being twisted beyond recognition of the original facts. Unless new evidence has been uncovered, they did not dispose of entire bodies. They disposed of cremated body PARTS, such as arms and legs that were amputated, and they had the permission of the service members or family in advance.

It's also interesting how the story "lost" one other bit of information: the disposal was done by civilian contractors, yet the Post keeps saying "the Air Force did this." Accuracy would suggest "military contractor" or "civilian firm hired by the Air Force" instead.

This proof that big government run programs are ineffective at running efficiently. If the USAF had hired a private contractors, they would have dumped ALL the ashes on a cost plus no-bid contract.

pudding7: xl5150: Big deal. Aren't we over the "everyone in the military is a hero so we should build a golden shrine for them every time they take a dump" mentality yet?

News flash: being too dumb to get into college doesn't automatically make you a hero. Put on your uniform, march around for a few years, and then slide into your inevitable job of driving a truck or managing a section of Wal-Mart while the rest of us actually accomplish something. In the meantime, don't waste my tax money with fancy little ceremonies and velvet caskets for arms and legs.

LOL.

/at you, not with you.

This.

So tired of seeing the troops biatch about going to war while America goes to the mall. You were too stupid to get a real job so you have the government provide for you while you kill brown people for their oil. Patriots you aren't.

Why is this even a concern? Who cares what happens to the ashes of the dead? Bury them, spread them, dump them in the sea...it's all the same. Dumping ashes in a landfill is far more dignified than someone keeping them on their mantle in a jar.

The human is dead. The body no longer functions. What made that human a person is no longer functioning. The synapses of the brain have ceased to exist. What's left is a decaying piece of meat and bones. Remember the person, don't hold on to the dead meat like it's some kind of memorial...that's farking morbid. You'd think a this point in our evolution we'd have come to grips with death and stopped treating dead flesh like it's somehow still part of the person we once knew.

Troublesome Strumpet: So, for those of you who think this is no big deal: Why is it that bin Laden got a burial at sea, but they couldn't be arsed to find a way to dispose of the remains of our own in a way that doesn't cost a lot but still treats them with some respect?

I brought it up in a previous thread, but why not a field set aside for the purpose? Scatter the ashes there, put up a plaque, plant some flowers and there you go!

Stop making sense. This is fark!

While I think that there is a little bit of hysteria here in this article I would say that the military should have a ceremony for this sort of thing. I think that a sea dispersal of cremated "remains" on an annual basis is something that most service members would be in favor of and could actually be fitting tribute to the pieces of us that are sometimes left behind on the battlefield. I can't believe that some politically savvy general or admiral hasn't already run with this. Dignified disposal of the bits and pieces of service members that have been lost in service to this country is not too much to ask.

ace in your face: Troublesome Strumpet: gh0strid3r: And don't forget... they only disposed of these parts and fragments AFTER getting approval from the service members or their families.

FTA: The landfill dumping was concealed from families who had authorized the military to dispose of the remains in a dignified and respectful manner

I don't think a landfill qualifies as dignified and respectful.
What is? Putting them in the ground to rot? Why do we think of that as better? Like an above poster said, ifnyou sprinkle dads ashes on his favorite mountain he just gets pissed on by some critter. You think we should really create a giant memorial to people's parts? Against their family wishes no less? Gross. Honestly there isn't a much more respectful way to deal with it. I'm sure my breast tumor ended up in a landfill somewhere and I don't give an ef.

That is your opinion though. To everyone else, being thrown in the garbage is definitely NOT dignified. So not only were the remains mishandled by current standards, the families were lied to. Does that not count for anything?

Smokey the Bare: farscape: pudding7: xl5150: Big deal. Aren't we over the "everyone in the military is a hero so we should build a golden shrine for them every time they take a dump" mentality yet?

News flash: being too dumb to get into college doesn't automatically make you a hero. Put on your uniform, march around for a few years, and then slide into your inevitable job of driving a truck or managing a section of Wal-Mart while the rest of us actually accomplish something. In the meantime, don't waste my tax money with fancy little ceremonies and velvet caskets for arms and legs.

LOL.

/at you, not with you.

This.

So tired of seeing the troops biatch about going to war while America goes to the mall. You were too stupid to get a real job so you have the government provide for you while you kill brown people for their oil. Patriots you aren't.

TROOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!

Anyway... I failed a PT test a bunch if years ago. My punishment was aa letter of reprimand (LOR). From what I can remember, the two civilian employees and the LtCol of Col in charge ended up receiving the same kind of paperwork.

How is that right? Being a chunker is the same as throwing ashes into a landfill.

/I do think this whole thing is a blown a little out of proportion
//so many trolls these days on fark

If you were/ae enlisted, the LOR doesn't mean much. For the Lt Col/Col, an LOR is a career ender.

snuffy: honor and dignity is just lip service from a gutless hollow government.

take note those of you who are thinking of giving your all.

Really? "Honor" and "dignity" is the same crap sold to every generation of young men since time began. Nothing is really different this time around.

It's such a farking joke on them.