Holder, et al, probably violated the Kingpin Law by providing arms to the Mexican cartels. There's no exception in there for law enforcement activities article

Since the article does not mention the WH or AG Holder directly, then I think the blame needs to land squarely on ATF's goons. Sure, we can yell at Holder for approving this operation at all, but his predecessor ran the same operation for years in the Bush era, so there's that. The ATF goons implicated here need to be shown the door, and then possibly to jail if they broke a law in the process.

Outside of this obvious illegal/unethical behavior, the idea to trace multiple rifle sales to single buyers is a good idea. Many of the mass shootings we've witnessed were preceded by the perp stocking up on rifles and ammo in a short amount of time. If such a trace stops even one person from killing dozens, then it's done its job.

dj_bigbird: Holder, et al, probably violated the Kingpin Law by providing arms to the Mexican cartels. There's no exception in there for law enforcement activities article

Did....did you just link to PJMedia?

As a source for News?

Codenamechaz: dj_bigbird: Holder, et al, probably violated the Kingpin Law by providing arms to the Mexican cartels. There's no exception in there for law enforcement activities article

Did....did you just link to PJMedia?

As a source for News?

It's an opinion piece, to be sure, but the facts are all there. Especially since the guy who wrote the piece actually wrote the law in question.

This sounds freeperish....

Well no shiat.

It's worth noting that the article is written in vague terms that never makes it clear if it's the same groups inside the ATF or if it was intentional.

Yeah, Holder needs to go.

ultraholland: again, all of this nonsense would cease if we simply ended the WoD

This too.

In Fast and Furious, ATF secretly encouraged gun dealers to sell to suspected traffickers for Mexican drug cartels to go after the "big fish." But ATF whistleblowers told CBS News and Congress it was a dangerous practice called "gunwalking," and it put thousands of weapons on the street.

So, American gun dealers legally sold assault weapons to Mexican drug dealers. And your argument is that the Administration forced them to sell them, rather than discussing that it was perfectly farking legal to sell weapons to drug dealers?

"We just want to make sure we are cooperating with ATF and that we are not viewed as selling to the bad guys,"

You sold them! If you thought they were suspicious, you could have stopped! You didn't want to find out for yourselves because you were making money and figured you could just blame someone else for the fact that you were arming drug dealers!

GAT_00: In Fast and Furious, ATF secretly encouraged gun dealers to sell to suspected traffickers for Mexican drug cartels to go after the "big fish." But ATF whistleblowers told CBS News and Congress it was a dangerous practice called "gunwalking," and it put thousands of weapons on the street.

So, American gun dealers legally sold assault weapons to Mexican drug dealers. And your argument is that the Administration forced them to sell them, rather than discussing that it was perfectly farking legal to sell weapons to drug dealers?

"We just want to make sure we are cooperating with ATF and that we are not viewed as selling to the bad guys,"

You sold them! If you thought they were suspicious, you could have stopped! You didn't want to find out for yourselves because you were making money and figured you could just blame someone else for the fact that you were arming drug dealers!

You blame the gun dealers for the guns that walked in this program?

violentsalvation: You blame the gun dealers for the guns that walked in this program?

Who sold the guns? This proves exactly what they wanted to prove: that gun laws in this country are a joke.

What exactly was to stop this happening without Administration coaxing? Hell, there's no reason to suspect it isn't happening anyway! It's not like it would be illegal.

GAT_00: violentsalvation: You blame the gun dealers for the guns that walked in this program?

Who sold the guns? This proves exactly what they wanted to prove: that gun laws in this country are a joke.

What exactly was to stop this happening without Administration coaxing? Hell, there's no reason to suspect it isn't happening anyway! It's not like it would be illegal.

No it proved the ATF needs to be purged. It did not prove anyone's pro gun-control political nonsense. It is a royal pain in the ass to stay in the ATF's good graces and maintain a FFL. If you are a dealer and they tell you to sell 100 assault weapons to one dude in one day, you are going to do it. "it is a need to know basis Mr. Dealer, yep that is classified but trust us this is going to do a lot of good"

The ATF set up lawful gun owners and dealers to take the fall for what they knew would fail.

violentsalvation: No it proved the ATF needs to be purged. It did not prove anyone's pro gun-control political nonsense. It is a royal pain in the ass to stay in the ATF's good graces and maintain a FFL. If you are a dealer and they tell you to sell 100 assault weapons to one dude in one day, you are going to do it. "it is a need to know basis Mr. Dealer, yep that is classified but trust us this is going to do a lot of good"

The ATF set up lawful gun owners and dealers to take the fall for what they knew would fail.

None of which disproves that they were forced to do this and they were doing nothing wrong by selling assault weapons to foreign drug dealers.

Stay in the ATF's good graces? The mantra of 'if you've done nothing wrong, you've got nothing to hide' comes to mind. Don't have to stay in someone's good graces if you haven't done anything to piss them off.

Damn, this is real hard to keep up:

ATF will approve the application if the applicant:

Is 21 years or older.
Is not prohibited from handling or possessing firearms or ammunition
Has not violated the Gun Control Act or its regulations
Has not failed to disclose information or facts in connection with his application
Has premises for conducting business or collecting

The applicant must also certify that:

The business to be conducted under the license is not prohibited by State or local law in the place where the licensed premise is located
Within 30 days after the application is approved the business will comply with the requirements of State and local law applicable to the conduct of the business
The business will not be conducted under the license until the requirements of State and local law applicable to the business have been met
The applicant has sent or delivered a form to the chief law enforcement officer where the premises are located notifying the officer that the applicant intends to apply for a license.
Secure gun storage and safety devices will be available at any place in which firearms are sold under the license to persons who are not licensees

GAT_00: The mantra of 'if you've done nothing wrong, you've got nothing to hide' comes to mind.

Yeah, ATF.

ChubbyTiger: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Since the article does not mention the WH or AG Holder directly, then I think the blame needs to land squarely on ATF's goons. Sure, we can yell at Holder for approving this operation at all, but his predecessor ran the same operation for years in the Bush era, so there's that. The ATF goons implicated here need to be shown the door, and then possibly to jail if they broke a law in the process.

Outside of this obvious illegal/unethical behavior, the idea to trace multiple rifle sales to single buyers is a good idea. Many of the mass shootings we've witnessed were preceded by the perp stocking up on rifles and ammo in a short amount of time. If such a trace stops even one person from killing dozens, then it's done its job.

When you take the salary as head of an organization, you take responsibility for the activities of that organization. Fine, if a goon went off and did whatever he wanted against orders, I'd agree with you. But here the goons were following orders. Holder is, in the end, responsible for all of this. As is his predecessor. The only answer to this sort of behavior is jail time. Period.
I'm ok with that. The buck does stop with Holder. Should they be punished for botching the operation and manufacturing a case? Sure! BUT, if we're going to can Holder for the operation in general, we better make it fair and go back after the guy before him too.

You may like the reporting idea - that's a different issue. But to manufacture the circumstances in this way is unethical, immoral, and illegal. String. Them. Up.
Agreed

Grand_Moff_Joseph: BUT, if we're going to can Holder for the operation in general, we better make it fair and go back after the guy before him too.

Grand_Moff_Joseph: Agreed

Woah now, the idea here isn't to go after a Republican, it's to go after Obama. The fact that it is an actual scandal is just window dressing.

Operation Wide Receiver under Bush's presidency was not the same thing. It was started because a gun dealer reported suspicious purchases to the ATF and they came up with a plan. They actually tried to use the Mexican authorities to intercept the guns and the people receiving them just as they crossed into Mexico. It didn't work.

At least two major differences, The Mexican authorities knew the guns were coming and for reasons unknown to me, they did not intercept them, and there was never any intention of just letting guns walk all the way to the cartels.

violentsalvation: At least two major differences, The Mexican authorities knew the guns were coming and for reasons unknown to me, they did not intercept them

Eddie Adams from Torrance: violentsalvation: At least two major differences, The Mexican authorities knew the guns were coming and for reasons unknown to me, they did not intercept them

i236.photobucket.com


probably

Green? Better get my flame suit on, because I'm going to have some people pissed at me in here.

GAT_00: Green? Better get my flame suit on, because I'm going to have some people pissed at me in here.

Dude you must be used to wearing a Nomex® flame-retardant suit anyway. I am pretty sure they are standard issue for those who frequent the politics tab.

Hey I wanted to ask you something and yeah threadjack blah blah. NCIS LA. I am trying to get back into it. The last episode I recall was Callan in a cemetery and someone watching him and him chasing after. Where the hell am I so I can pick this back up? I am trying to find close to that episode but I am lost.

violentsalvation: The last episode I recall was Callan in a cemetery and someone watching him and him chasing after.

That's...hmm. Have you seen the whole arc about his family history and where he's from?

GAT_00: violentsalvation: The last episode I recall was Callan in a cemetery and someone watching him and him chasing after.

That's...hmm. Have you seen the whole arc about his family history and where he's from?

I don't know or at least I don't think so. He was tracking down a foster sister maybe, and maybe found a bio sister's grave, I am not sure. Somewhere around there maybe? Does that even sound familiar? I THINK I am somewhere lost in the second season. I might need to just start season two over.

violentsalvation: GAT_00: violentsalvation: The last episode I recall was Callan in a cemetery and someone watching him and him chasing after.

That's...hmm. Have you seen the whole arc about his family history and where he's from?

I don't know or at least I don't think so. He was tracking down a foster sister maybe, and maybe found a bio sister's grave, I am not sure. Somewhere around there maybe? Does that even sound familiar? I THINK I am somewhere lost in the second season. I might need to just start season two over.

Yeah, I think you're around mid-season 2. I think that was the 14th episode of that season: Link. That's actually a gap for me too, I kind of just started watching when NCIS went off and found out it didn't suck.

The end of the second season and beginning of the third is the arc I'm talking about. Up to you obviously, but that's where you left off.

violentsalvation: GAT_00: violentsalvation: The last episode I recall was Callan in a cemetery and someone watching him and him chasing after.

That's...hmm. Have you seen the whole arc about his family history and where he's from?

I don't know or at least I don't think so. He was tracking down a foster sister maybe, and maybe found a bio sister's grave, I am not sure. Somewhere around there maybe? Does that even sound familiar? I THINK I am somewhere lost in the second season. I might need to just start season two over.

Go to the show's IMDB page and click on Season Two. It usually has write-ups for each aired episode.

GAT_00: violentsalvation: GAT_00: violentsalvation: The last episode I recall was Callan in a cemetery and someone watching him and him chasing after.

That's...hmm. Have you seen the whole arc about his family history and where he's from?

I don't know or at least I don't think so. He was tracking down a foster sister maybe, and maybe found a bio sister's grave, I am not sure. Somewhere around there maybe? Does that even sound familiar? I THINK I am somewhere lost in the second season. I might need to just start season two over.

Yeah, I think you're around mid-season 2. I think that was the 14th episode of that season: Link. That's actually a gap for me too, I kind of just started watching when NCIS went off and found out it didn't suck.

The end of the second season and beginning of the third is the arc I'm talking about. Up to you obviously, but that's where you left off.

Huh. I think I must have missed some episodes before that but I caught the season 2 finale. OK thanks, that must be what is screwing me up. I will start back around S02E08

GAT_00: that gun laws in this country are a joke.


Oh really? What would you change?

Never mind the fact that different states have various gun laws.

States with decent gun laws:

Washington
Nevada
Texas

States with horrible gun laws:

California
Massachusetts

violentsalvation: GAT_00: Green? Better get my flame suit on, because I'm going to have some people pissed at me in here.

Dude you must be used to wearing a Nomex® flame-retardant suit anyway. I am pretty sure they are standard issue for those who frequent the politics tab.

Hey I wanted to ask you something and yeah threadjack blah blah. NCIS LA. I am trying to get back into it. The last episode I recall was Callan in a cemetery and someone watching him and him chasing after. Where the hell am I so I can pick this back up? I am trying to find close to that episode but I am lost.

Who uses Nomex? That's been outdated for at least 2 decades

I think this is pretty farked up. I mean, Operation Fast and Furious was really farked up to begin with (and I can't believe that no heads have rolled because of that. I mean, seriously?), but this just makes this whole thing even worse.

Actually I'm gonna have to go and enter tinfoil hat territory, but I really have to wonder if that wasn't the plan to begin with:

Create a program that is so incredibly flawed, that is so incredibly stupid, that will for sure backfire, then use this program as a template to push for gun control.

Because really this makes more sense than thinking so many people looked at this and thought 'Yep, that's gonna work'

... then again, Federal government and all that, not attributing malice where human stupidity, and so on.

Tatsuma: Create a program that is so incredibly flawed, that is so incredibly stupid, that will for sure backfire, then use this program as a template to push for gun control.

Because really this makes more sense than thinking so many people looked at this and thought 'Yep, that's gonna work'

... then again, Federal government and all that, not attributing malice where human stupidity, and so on.

Then again using this logic, the 4th season finale of Sons of Anarchy was really just a long con by Sutter in order to string us along only to punch us in the genitals then walk away laughing.

Otherwise that means he actually thought that this infuriating piece of shiat was good television

/bro bro bro

Eddie Adams from Torrance: violentsalvation: At least two major differences, The Mexican authorities knew the guns were coming and for reasons unknown to me, they did not intercept them

[i236.photobucket.com image 400x169]

I know I'd need more than 80 bucks to look the other way.

unyon: I know I'd need more than 80 bucks to look the other way.

How about 80 bucks and not having your whole family beheaded?

I'd place my bets on incredible Government incompetence over some conspiracy theory.

/Seriously, if you have ever held a federal job you would consider it a miracle when someone got done right