FARK.com: (6794886) Contrary to popular belief, atheists do take their families to church. "We thought that these individuals might be less inclined to introduce their children to religious traditions, but we found the exact opposite to be true"

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		Contrary to popular belief, atheists do take their families to church. "We thought that these individuals might be less inclined to introduce their children to religious traditions, but we found the exact opposite to be true" (religion.blogs.cnn.com)		522
		More: Interesting, models of scientific inquiry, University at Buffalo, Rice University

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Aidan		2011-12-07 10:41:49 AM

StoPPeRmobile:
Remember to teach that magic is make-believe and some like to pretend.

Oh boy... So. My co-worker took my son to church and they had a really cool thing with... balloon Bible stories? I don't know. I guess my child was one of the lost tribes maybe?, and he got a balloon helmet and a balloon sword and got to fight other kids.

However, when he got home, he went into this tortured explanation about how bad magic can be sometimes good, and good magic is... good. And people who do magic are... good... Sometimes?

So the next day I go to my co-worker and I say "Did you just teach my child 'Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live'? (this would have been hilarious because I had previously described my religious leanings as 'witch'). Sadly, he did not. Turns out there was this long discussion prefacing the balloon show about how it was all ILLUSION and not REAL magic because REAL magic is BAD.

Apparently that went over like a lead balloon, because several kids in that church are old enough to understand that Harry Potter is a good guy and argued long and passionately in his defense. :P

/CSS

Mr. Breeze		2011-12-07 10:42:16 AM

soakitincider: HAMMERTOE: soakitincider: it's good to have choices; in countries that aren't predominantly christian, there would be no tolerance for atheism. Also, non-christian majority nations tend to be shiatholes.

Somebody's already forgotten history. Clue: Salem witch-trials. See also: The Inquisition.

jesus never said to hunt witches or forcefully convert people, so those who did were not acting in any christian manner, but working to serve their own ends under the guise of christianity. just because a person says they are something does not make them that thing.

That and those two examples were from hundreds of years ago.

CapnBlues		2011-12-07 10:42:25 AM

heh... I realized over the last ten years that my dad made us go to church every sunday, but he was an atheist the whole time. turns out, he just liked going out for breakfast once a week.

stevetherobot		2011-12-07 10:43:57 AM

halfof33: stevetherobot: There are plenty of Christians in the U.S. who believe that the U.S. should have no tolerance for atheism and are actively working to make that happen.

There are plenty of Atheists in the U.S. who believe that the U.S. should have no tolerance for religion and are actively working to make that happen

That may be, if so they are fools. In any case they aren't in positions of power in a major political party, like the Christians I mentioned.

Queensowntalia		2011-12-07 10:44:18 AM

halfof33: stevetherobot: There are plenty of Christians in the U.S. who believe that the U.S. should have no tolerance for atheism and are actively working to make that happen.

There are plenty of Atheists in the U.S. who believe that the U.S. should have no tolerance for religion and are actively working to make that happen

You can keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel good. I'm sure Fox News would back you up on that.

HAMMERTOE		2011-12-07 10:44:18 AM

Aidan: Yeah, but it's also ridiculous to discuss "their god" as though it had nothing to do with us. Hate to break it to you, but you and I (provided you're at least marginally European) are descended from MANY generations of people who believed in that god. To ignore that is to claim that this is "their earth" as well. Technically true, but useless in terms of moving forward. Exclusivity is a tool commonly used by proponents of religion and should not be used by opponents of it without compelling need.

Fair enough, but I'm speaking as a reformed Christian. Their own bible states, "...when I became an adult, I put away all of those childish things..." (Paraphrased, obviously.) Well, when I became an adult, learned that magic is not real, and gained the ability to see the reasoning and purpose for the creation of mythical magical beings like Santa Claus (control and motivation), I immediately became able to apply this complex knowledge of the world to other "magical" beings as well. The whole exclusivity concept is inextricable from the entire spiel. They claim their god is perfect & always has been. My experience and common sense tells me this claim is irreconcilable with reality as it is, and therefore is false.

Charles Martel		2011-12-07 10:44:41 AM

An atheist going to church seems a little hypocritical to me. But, no matter, we're glad you're here.

Come for the music.

Stay for the eternal salvation.

Mr. Breeze		2011-12-07 10:44:45 AM

CapnBlues: heh... I realized over the last ten years that my dad made us go to church every sunday, but he was an atheist the whole time. turns out, he just liked going out for breakfast once a week.

I LoL'd

pute kisses like a man		2011-12-07 10:45:01 AM

Hobodeluxe: LL316: moonage daydream: OtherBrotherDarryl: If my son wanted to start going to church, I'd take him. Frankly, I'm jealous of those who find their answers in religion. But I'm also jealous of how happy my dog gets from a simple $1.99 chew toy.

Thread over.

Wow, condescending athiests. Who'd have thunk it?

Wow, holier than thou Christians? Who'd have thunk it?

wow, assholes on both sides of the fence, who'd have thunk it?

/ ha ha, now the fence is an asshole too!!!
// que xkcd comic

LabGrrl		2011-12-07 10:45:29 AM

Sushi and the Banshees:
/Zeus' popularity continues to drop

Is funny because is opposite of true!

Queensowntalia		2011-12-07 10:45:40 AM

Mr. Breeze: soakitincider: HAMMERTOE: soakitincider: it's good to have choices; in countries that aren't predominantly christian, there would be no tolerance for atheism. Also, non-christian majority nations tend to be shiatholes.

Somebody's already forgotten history. Clue: Salem witch-trials. See also: The Inquisition.

jesus never said to hunt witches or forcefully convert people, so those who did were not acting in any christian manner, but working to serve their own ends under the guise of christianity. just because a person says they are something does not make them that thing.

That and those two examples were from hundreds of years ago.

Time heals all wounds, and all that. Let bygones be bygones, right?

LemonYellowSun		2011-12-07 10:45:55 AM

IamPatSajak: Vacation bible school=Free summer camp. Even atheists want a week away from the kids in the summer.

campquest.org

This text is now purple		2011-12-07 10:45:57 AM

MightyPez: However, I checked into a Universalist church near my home. these people seem more my speed. For example: "Since 2002 our minister, Victoria Safford, has refused to sign marriage certificates for heterosexual couples until it is legal for her to sign them for all couples." Not gay myself, but taking a stance for this (and other) social justice issues is a big win in my book.

So she's from the "we had to bomb the village to save it" school, huh?

gilgigamesh		2011-12-07 10:45:58 AM

soakitincider: africa has a large quantity of animism/islam in its population mix as well, not to mention all of the tribal nonsense they constantly push on eachother. they tend to not act as christians at the macro level.

Remember kids, its atheists who have a monopoly on being condescending to people with different beliefs.

Because compared to believing in a Jewish zombie who is both his own father and his own son, and also a ghost, believing in animism and "spiritual nonsense" is just silly.

Billified		2011-12-07 10:46:06 AM

htomc: I've known plenty of atheists who have exposed their children to several different faith traditions, so they can see what it's all about and make up their own minds.

I have never once seen a believer bring -their- children to the local atheists meetings, to educate their children on that perspective.

To be fair, when you drive past a place of worship for a major religion you can look at the building and pretty much determine what goes on there. Most people can even look at a Babtist church and a Catholic church, knowing which is which. Do most atheist even go to meetings? If so, what does a typical atheist meeting place look like? Am I looking for a building with a sign out front that says Atheist Convention Center? Are they listed in the phone book?

Maybe I am wrong, but I see atheism as more of an individual effort than an organization. All the atheists I know looked at religions collectively and came to the individual decision that none of them met their needs or wants in life. No one came knocking on their door suggesting they try an absence of belief. I've never seen a pamplet warning of the horrors of not being atheist. Atheism just doesn't have a marketing campaign out there to gain followers...because it's main ideal is to not follow.

CapnBlues		2011-12-07 10:46:34 AM

Charles Martel: [kyleabaker.com image 500x505]

An atheist going to church seems a little hypocritical to me. But, no matter, we're glad you're here.

Come for the music.

Stay for the eternal salvation.

my modified graph would be a flat line at zero, except for a slight uptick for "when I hear Johnny Cash reciting scripture"

How is it hypocritical?

Queensowntalia		2011-12-07 10:46:54 AM

Charles Martel: [kyleabaker.com image 500x505]

An atheist going to church seems a little hypocritical to me. But, no matter, we're glad you're here.

Come for the music.

Stay for the eternal salvation.

I'd move "being followed by the police" several spots to the right, personally :P

virusdynamo		2011-12-07 10:47:03 AM

Sigh.

Look up the Cristero War.

Read The True Believer.

Be ambivalent about everything.

/just don't give a fark no more

MooseUpNorth		2011-12-07 10:47:23 AM

Aidan: However, when he got home, he went into this tortured explanation about how bad magic can be sometimes good, and good magic is... good. And people who do magic are... good... Sometimes?

Hé-boy. I don't need the rest of the story to imagine where that came from, but go on.

Apparently that went over like a lead balloon, because several kids in that church are old enough to understand that Harry Potter is a good guy and argued long and passionately in his defense. :P

*lol* Awesome!

MightyPez		2011-12-07 10:47:27 AM

This text is now purple: MightyPez: However, I checked into a Universalist church near my home. these people seem more my speed. For example: "Since 2002 our minister, Victoria Safford, has refused to sign marriage certificates for heterosexual couples until it is legal for her to sign them for all couples." Not gay myself, but taking a stance for this (and other) social justice issues is a big win in my book.

So she's from the "we had to bomb the village to save it" school, huh?

I think it's generally referred to as "solidarity"

stevetherobot		2011-12-07 10:49:42 AM

Aidan: It has been argued that the Big G of the Old Testament was adolescent and has now matured. If you believe he is a real force, then he's gotten used to dealing with imperfect humans.

: Malachi 3:6 declares, "I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed." Similarly, James 1:17 tells us, "Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows." The meaning of Numbers 23:19 could not be more clear: "God is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He should change His mind.

Big_Fat_Liar		2011-12-07 10:49:47 AM

Hobodeluxe: LL316: moonage daydream: OtherBrotherDarryl: If my son wanted to start going to church, I'd take him. Frankly, I'm jealous of those who find their answers in religion. But I'm also jealous of how happy my dog gets from a simple $1.99 chew toy.

Thread over.

Wow, condescending athiests. Who'd have thunk it?

Wow, holier than thou Christians? Who'd have thunk it?

OBD's comment was condescending. Which is why I laughed. That and something about me being an asshole.

Egoy3k		2011-12-07 10:49:54 AM

In a lot of churches a large portion of the congregation is at the very least agnostic. In more educated areas the percentage if non-believers in any given church goes up as well. A large number of nonbelievers feel the need to feign belief.

Sushi and the Banshees		2011-12-07 10:49:58 AM

How about this:

Start with solid secular humanism. Then, once you've got that down pretty well, if you want to mix in a little Jeebus, Buddhism, Taoism, Judaism, or whatever-ism, go ahead. But you probably won't. End result: You'll be a shining example in virtually any religion, without all the needless BS.

Another Pretentious Nickname		2011-12-07 10:50:13 AM

Any truly scientific thinker will be agnostic.

The atheist hypothesis cannot be convincingly demonstrated using available evidence.

Aidan		2011-12-07 10:50:26 AM

HAMMERTOE: Aidan: Yeah, but it's also ridiculous to discuss "their god" as though it had nothing to do with us. Hate to break it to you, but you and I (provided you're at least marginally European) are descended from MANY generations of people who believed in that god. To ignore that is to claim that this is "their earth" as well. Technically true, but useless in terms of moving forward. Exclusivity is a tool commonly used by proponents of religion and should not be used by opponents of it without compelling need.

Fair enough, but I'm speaking as a reformed Christian. Their own bible states, "...when I became an adult, I put away all of those childish things..." (Paraphrased, obviously.) Well, when I became an adult, learned that magic is not real, and gained the ability to see the reasoning and purpose for the creation of mythical magical beings like Santa Claus (control and motivation), I immediately became able to apply this complex knowledge of the world to other "magical" beings as well. The whole exclusivity concept is inextricable from the entire spiel. They claim their god is perfect & always has been. My experience and common sense tells me this claim is irreconcilable with reality as it is, and therefore is false.

You pretty much said the exact same thing you did before, but I can accept this new version for some reason. So... What that tells me is that my previous reaction was simply knee-jerk. I apologize, and thanks for the clarification.

This text is now purple		2011-12-07 10:51:00 AM

LabGrrl: Sushi and the Banshees:
/Zeus' popularity continues to drop

Is funny because is opposite of true!

"Many of the Hellenes' values are based on secular ancient Greek principles. "

Misogyny and pederasty?

Dangl1ng		2011-12-07 10:51:16 AM

patentguy: You go to a UU church and are the only churchgoing atheist you know? The UU churches I've attended are chock full of atheists.

This.

And I am an atheist and occasionally I take my kids to UU church. Not only do they get a chance to be exposed to different religions, but the values are usually closely in line with my own. But not only is that a reason, but some of us have spouses or ex-spouses who believe in some religion or the other. And while we haven't converted them to baby-eating, sometimes we compromise and take the little rugrats to church. Hopefully, it's not one of those really dumb churches....

utah dude		2011-12-07 10:51:44 AM

oh dude i wish my parents had done this instead of raising me all anti- style.

StoneColdAtheist		2011-12-07 10:51:57 AM

This text is now purple: Notwithstanding that creationism isn't a scientific theory, biology does teach Lamarckianism, Darwinian natural selection, and punctuated equilibrium.

Way to miss the point...

Besides, biology doesn't teach Lamarckianism, and covers the other two in discussions of how evolution occurs. Nowhere in there are any references to magic; merely uncertainties about how evolution occurs.

Peki		2011-12-07 10:52:25 AM

Atheist here. I don't go to church for the religion (though I do consider myself a spiritual person). It's not that I can't find religion for myself, or that I am still looking for answers. I sought out church because I'm looking for a community. I was raised to mostly be a loner; didn't go to camp, Girl Scouts, whatever. As kids, we were encouraged to stick our head in books and do well in school. Which we did.

But being a loner means that when shiat hits the fan, you look around for help and no one's there. I want the knowledge that there are folks who will accept me for who I am, allow me to be human, allow me the freedom to make my own choices, and love me in spite of my faults (disclaimer: I go to a UU church, YMMV). Needing support is human, not weak. Church seems to be a good place to hone my social skills, which I'm sure is lacking typical to most Farkers.

The fiance and I both intend on taking our kids to church. We're planning on doing online education with them, so it's a good place to get the kids socialized. Say what you want, but churches serve a very useful function in addition to the religious.

stevetherobot		2011-12-07 10:52:36 AM

Charles Martel: [kyleabaker.com image 500x505]

An atheist going to church seems a little hypocritical to me. But, no matter, we're glad you're here.

Come for the music.

Stay for the eternal salvation.

In one of the church's I sometimes attend, the music is my least favorite part.

halfof33		2011-12-07 10:52:42 AM

Queensowntalia: You can keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel good. I'm sure Fox News would back you up on that.

Ohhh, the old Argument from Fox News Fallacy! Shiny!

That is a rock solid argument, sport. lulz

/always get a laugh over folks with Fox News Derangement Syndrome.
//full disclosure, I detest ALL 24 hour news channels with the white hot heat of 1000 suns.

This text is now purple		2011-12-07 10:53:35 AM

MightyPez: This text is now purple: MightyPez: However, I checked into a Universalist church near my home. these people seem more my speed. For example: "Since 2002 our minister, Victoria Safford, has refused to sign marriage certificates for heterosexual couples until it is legal for her to sign them for all couples." Not gay myself, but taking a stance for this (and other) social justice issues is a big win in my book.

So she's from the "we had to bomb the village to save it" school, huh?

I think it's generally referred to as "solidarity"

Is that the popular euphemism now for "punishing the innocent because you can't punish the guilty"?

MasterThief		2011-12-07 10:53:40 AM

Charles Martel: kyleabaker.com

An atheist going to church seems a little hypocritical to me. But, no matter, we're glad you're here.

Come for the music.

Stay for the eternal salvation.

And the coffee and donuts after Mass.

MooseUpNorth		2011-12-07 10:53:45 AM

This text is now purple: For example: "Since 2002 our minister, Victoria Safford, has refused to sign marriage certificates for heterosexual couples until it is legal for her to sign them for all couples."

So she's from the "we had to bomb the village to save it" school, huh?

I rarely speak in such absolutes, but either everybody is free to marry, or nobody is free to marry. This is one of the rare cases where there's no moral middle ground. Safford is a darn fine person.

It occurs to me that Safford, until recently, was not free to be ordained.

TemperedEdge		2011-12-07 10:54:03 AM

We're not opposed to introducing our kids to different traditions. What we're opposed to is outright indoctrination: Them being told "this is true" and not being given any opposing worldview. When we do it, we say "this is what some people believe," not "this is all real, and this is the way you should live your life."

And besides, isn't the first rule of war "Know Thy Enemy?" Consider it recon.

Aidan		2011-12-07 10:55:33 AM

Another Pretentious Nickname: Any truly scientific thinker will be agnostic.

The atheist hypothesis cannot be convincingly demonstrated using available evidence.

Barring the understanding that the forefront of scientific inquiry was started by very religious people (well, Bacon and Mendel, at least), that's only true because there is no negative proof that everyone (ie: religious people) will accept.

Lets take, for example, the following test: If God exists, he should do [X] when we do [Y].
So far, no religious person has accepted that God is compelled to react in ANY theoretical test. Only historically is he seen to react. IE: "I got here by the grace of God", instead of "I'm going to get there because I do Y and thus God will do X."... At least in the sense that it can clearly be seen as an actual work of God and not, you know, placebo effect.

Science has progressed to the point that we can actually use negative proofs, which is really cool. However, God ('s believers) is a slippery mofo and won't conform to any actual measurable reaction. Therefore he is either unable to be perceived by our current measuring systems, or he's capricious, or he doesn't exist.

LabGrrl		2011-12-07 10:55:45 AM

Billified: Maybe I am wrong, but I see atheism as more of an individual effort than an organization. All the atheists I know looked at religions collectively and came to the individual decision that none of them met their needs or wants in life. No one came knocking on their door suggesting they try an absence of belief. I've never seen a pamplet warning of the horrors of not being atheist. Atheism just doesn't have a marketing campaign out there to gain followers...because it's main ideal is to not follow.

When I was in college the first time, I went to a student atheists meeting because I was one of the two people in the SA required to make sure groups were spending the money we gave them (something like $5/10 people/week) on punch and pie, not hookers and blow. The meeting went like this:
First 15 minutes: Why Religion sucks.
Second 15 minutes: Punch and pie and we should make some flyers.
Third 15 minutes: Complaining about Campus Crusade for Christ
Fourth 15 minutes: People, including me, who were out to get them and what they should do about it.

Now, before that seems unfair, I should note that most of the other groups I had to drop into followed the same format...including the religious and "athletic support" (giggle) ones...just the target of the inchoate rage changed,

pwhp_67		2011-12-07 10:57:09 AM

Another Pretentious Nickname:
Any truly scientific thinker will be agnostic.

The atheist hypothesis cannot be convincingly demonstrated using available evidence.

I can prove the atheist hypothesis easily:

"I am an atheist."

"Do you believe in any god(s)?"

"No. None."

See? Easy peasy...

This text is now purple		2011-12-07 10:57:12 AM

StoneColdAtheist: This text is now purple: Notwithstanding that creationism isn't a scientific theory, biology does teach Lamarckianism, Darwinian natural selection, and punctuated equilibrium.

Way to miss the point...

Besides, biology doesn't teach Lamarckianism, and covers the other two in discussions of how evolution occurs. Nowhere in there are any references to magic; merely uncertainties about how evolution occurs.

S'funny. I was taught the theory of Lamarckianism. It was a short section, considering it failed the evidence test. The larger point is that simply dismissing a comparison as "teaching the controversy" is just glib. There are times where an issue is actively controversial, and you do a disservice by not explaining both sides' cases.

Granted, in physics, this is usually accomplished by waiting for the older physicist to die.

MooseUpNorth		2011-12-07 10:57:52 AM

Another Pretentious Nickname: Any truly scientific thinker will be agnostic.

The atheist hypothesis cannot be convincingly demonstrated using available evidence.

*sigh* Damn, and this was turning into a really _good_ religious discussion.

/ Who's got the Blue Gargoyle.

LabGrrl		2011-12-07 10:57:56 AM

This text is now purple:
Misogyny and pederasty?

Doesn't matter, if the line on the graph shows the number's going up, it's usually not going down.
/lines go up, lines go down, you can't explain that.

Leeds		2011-12-07 10:58:08 AM

It's kind of sad that this didn't get the obvious tag.

The individuals on one side of this "great debate" understand both viewpoints and they chose to reject the viewpoint that has no evidence.

People on the other side of the debate often seem startled when they take even the most tiny look at what the other side believes.

Sigh.

Mr. Breeze		2011-12-07 10:58:17 AM

Queensowntalia: Mr. Breeze: soakitincider: HAMMERTOE: soakitincider: it's good to have choices; in countries that aren't predominantly christian, there would be no tolerance for atheism. Also, non-christian majority nations tend to be shiatholes.

Somebody's already forgotten history. Clue: Salem witch-trials. See also: The Inquisition.

jesus never said to hunt witches or forcefully convert people, so those who did were not acting in any christian manner, but working to serve their own ends under the guise of christianity. just because a person says they are something does not make them that thing.

That and those two examples were from hundreds of years ago.

Time heals all wounds, and all that. Let bygones be bygones, right?

Not exactly my point. The OP noted that non-predominately Christian nations there would be no tolerance for atheism. We're talking about modern societies here so the Inquisition and the Salem Witch Trials really do not apply. Regardless of what is being spread around these days (or is being focused on by the media), I'd make a good argument that tolerance of others by Christians is on the rise these days.

More and more of the successful churches are open to accepting of others who take part in behaviors that were looked down on even 10 years ago. For example, my church in GA would make it a mission to get people through the doors who would feel uncomfortable in a traditional church. Gay/lesbian, alcoholics, drug addicts, abusers, etc... (not lumping G/L people with addicts in a bad way btw) That is where the most progress is made. When asked by a group of local churches to protest at a gay rights parade, my pastors response was "I don't want to protest them, I want them to come to my church." That is the way it should be. Open and accepting just like Jesus.

smedrick		2011-12-07 10:58:42 AM

Another Pretentious Nickname: Any truly scientific thinker will be agnostic.

The atheist hypothesis cannot be convincingly demonstrated using available evidence.

An atheist lacks belief...it's that simple. I'm pretty sure that's something that doesn't even need to be demonstrated.

Queensowntalia		2011-12-07 10:59:24 AM

halfof33: /always get a laugh over folks with Fox News Derangement Syndrome.

I guess expecting reasonable, fact-based reporting instead of biased, wildly hyperbolized BS is "derangement."

OK.

funk_soul_bubby		2011-12-07 10:59:32 AM

The funniest part of you Farkers flinging your cocks around on this particular topic is that neither faction has all the answers, science or faith be damned. There will always be speculation, and in the relative sense those of the science and factual bases have as little clue about existence as those that submit to religion, spirituality, or "blind faith."

My advice is to keep an open mind. When you can't explain everything, that makes anything possible.

Egoy3k		2011-12-07 11:00:38 AM

Another Pretentious Nickname: Any truly scientific thinker will be agnostic.

The atheist hypothesis cannot be convincingly demonstrated using available evidence.

There is no atheist hypothesis, only rejection of the theist hypothesis.

Queensowntalia		2011-12-07 11:01:23 AM

Mr. Breeze: I'd make a good argument that tolerance of others by Christians is on the rise these days.

More and more of the successful churches are open to accepting of others who take part in behaviors that were looked down on even 10 years ago. For example, my church in GA would make it a mission to get people through the doors who would feel uncomfortable in a traditional church. Gay/lesbian, alcoholics, drug addicts, abusers, etc... (not lumping G/L people with addicts in a bad way btw) That is where the most progress is made. When asked by a group of local churches to protest at a gay rights parade, my pastors response was "I don't want to protest them, I want them to come to my church." That is the way it should be. Open and accepting just like Jesus.

Fair enough.

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