At first I only saw Pagan for Torres and I wtf'd. But then I saw that Ramon Ramirez was also involved. Now I like it.

FreakinB: At first I only saw Pagan for Torres and I wtf'd. But then I saw that Ramon Ramirez was also involved. Now I like it.

You should. As a Giants fan, I don't. I like Torres--he's an inspirational presence in the clubhouse and by all accounts a good guy--and he has some uses, but he's been inconsistent at the plate that it's probably best that he not be in the line-up, so it's not bad that he moves elsewhere, where hopefully he gain regain some focus. But Ramirez, on the other hand, has been absolutely sensational for the Giants, and I hate to see him go. The Giants have so much right-handed talent in their bullpen that he hasn't gotten in anywhere nearly as many innings as he should have, though, so I guess they see him as expendable.

The Giants need to acquire some consistent hitters, and I would've hoped that a talent like Ramirez could've been used as part of a package deal to acquire a consistent hitter to bat at or near the top of the order. I don't see Pagan as that guy. I hope I'm wrong.

Cyberluddite: FreakinB: At first I only saw Pagan for Torres and I wtf'd. But then I saw that Ramon Ramirez was also involved. Now I like it.

You should. As a Giants fan, I don't. I like Torres--he's an inspirational presence in the clubhouse and by all accounts a good guy--and he has some uses, but he's been inconsistent at the plate that it's probably best that he not be in the line-up, so it's not bad that he moves elsewhere, where hopefully he gain regain some focus. But Ramirez, on the other hand, has been absolutely sensational for the Giants, and I hate to see him go. The Giants have so much right-handed talent in their bullpen that he hasn't gotten in anywhere nearly as many innings as he should have, though, so I guess they see him as expendable.

The Giants need to acquire some consistent hitters, and I would've hoped that a talent like Ramirez could've been used as part of a package deal to acquire a consistent hitter to bat at or near the top of the order. I don't see Pagan as that guy. I hope I'm wrong.

Pagan, his defense aside, is a pretty good option at the top of the lineup. Ramirez is eminently replaceable, as the Giants have at least one righty- Heath Hembree - ready to come up. Plus, righty relievers in general arent that hard to come by. In 2011, Torres regressed to where he should be, given his age and skill set. 2010 was a fluke year for him, and one he's not likely to repeat. Furthermore, Pagan is 2 years younger, and has far better plate and running discipline.

Its not the big splash I was hoping the Giants would make, but its a good deal for them. They weren't bringing back Torres at all anyhow.

jackiepaper: Ramirez is eminently replaceable, as the Giants have at least one righty- Heath Hembree - ready to come up. Plus, righty relievers in general arent that hard to come by. In 2011, Torres regressed to where he should be, given his age and skill set. 2010 was a fluke year for him, and one he's not likely to repeat. Furthermore, Pagan is 2 years younger, and has far better plate and running discipline.

Its not the big splash I was hoping the Giants would make, but its a good deal for them. They weren't bringing back Torres at all anyhow.

What you said about Torres and Ramirez is true--Torres (who was eligable for arbitration) wasn't going to be brought back unless they could re-sign him at a bargain-basement salary, and even in that case it would be as a bench jockey, and Ramirez was expendable because even last year he wasn't getting many innings given that (1) the Giants' starters tend to stick around until late in the game and (2) they also had Wilson, Romo, and Casilla as good to excellent RH options in the pen (along with some less appealing options, such as Mota). But I do think that Ramirez is a quality reliever, and if they were going to move him, I would've hoped they could've gotten a little more value in return, especially when packaged with one or more other players. Pagan, to me, seems like the typical recent Giants lead-off hitter--bats around .250, OBP barely cracking .300, not a huge threat to steal, no power to speak of, and way too many strikeouts and weak infield grounders--except without the defense of other recent weak lead-off hitting outfielders like Torres or Rowand.

Cyberluddite: What you said about Torres and Ramirez is true--Torres (who was eligable for arbitration) wasn't going to be brought back unless they could re-sign him at a bargain-basement salary, and even in that case it would be as a bench jockey, and Ramirez was expendable because even last year he wasn't getting many innings given that (1) the Giants' starters tend to stick around until late in the game and (2) they also had Wilson, Romo, and Casilla as good to excellent RH options in the pen (along with some less appealing options, such as Mota). But I do think that Ramirez is a quality reliever, and if they were going to move him, I would've hoped they could've gotten a little more value in return, especially when packaged with one or more other players. Pagan, to me, seems like the typical recent Giants lead-off hitter--bats around .250, OBP barely cracking .300, not a huge threat to steal, no power to speak of, and way too many strikeouts and weak infield grounders--except without the defense of other recent weak lead-off hitting outfielders like Torres or Rowand.

Pagan's a better offensive player than you're giving him credit for. He won't light the world on fire and doesn't have much home run power but he can hit to the gaps, which is as important in your park as it is in ours. His OBP was .322 last year, but he's usually been around .340-.350 since he became a regular player. And I don't know where you're getting the idea that he isn't a threat to steal. He had 30+ each of the past 2 years despite missing time in '11 and generally not hitting leadoff, and he doesn't get caught much.

I still like the trade for the Mets since we needed the bullpen help, but it's not like you're getting Juan Pierre back.

Bad trade. I'll miss both Torres and Ramirez, and Pagan just ain't good enough. I hope I'm wrong but I don't think so.
/Giants fan

FreakinB: Pagan's a better offensive player than you're giving him credit for. He won't light the world on fire and doesn't have much home run power but he can hit to the gaps, which is as important in your park as it is in ours. His OBP was .322 last year, but he's usually been around .340-.350 since he became a regular player. And I don't know where you're getting the idea that he isn't a threat to steal. He had 30+ each of the past 2 years despite missing time in '11 and generally not hitting leadoff, and he doesn't get caught much.

I still like the trade for the Mets since we needed the bullpen help, but it's not like you're getting Juan Pierre back.

I hope you're right. Hopefully it will work out for both teams. But you got a good one in Ramirez. And he can fill in pretty much any role in the bullpen--middle relief or set-up, and I could see him as a potential closer, too. He filled in quite well in that role in SF when called upon to do so (when Wilson went on the DL--though Casilla was even better in that role).

And you never know, I could see Torres possibly doing well for you too. As you probably know, the guy suffers from ADD, and it's hampered his whole career, other than in his breakout year in 2010 when he seemed to overcome it and be more focused, and the Giants won the World Series. Who knows, as I mentioned above, a change of scenery may help him regain that focus. I hope so--he's a good guy and a fan (and team) favorite.

Cyberluddite: The Giants need to acquire some consistent hitters, and I would've hoped that a talent like Ramirez could've been used as part of a package deal to acquire a consistent hitter to bat at or near the top of the order. I don't see Pagan as that guy. I hope I'm wrong.

It's worth noting that Pagan will be 30 next year, whereas Torres will be 34. Neither of them hit much last year, but if you look at their pre-2011 career and account for age, Pagan is likely to bring more offense to the table.

That said, Torres has been an excellent defensive CF the last couple of years. Pagan looks like a league-average CF, or a very good corner outfielder.

Extra offense and worse defense is probably smart for the Giants, given the overall quality of their pitching, their staff's grounder-heavy tendencies, and their perennially sad lack of offense. The Giants can 'hide' outfield defenders better than almost any team, and if Pagan is flanked by Schierholtz (who is excellent with the glove) in RF, that will help him as well. Plus, they're getting younger.

I'd take Pagan over Torres straight-up, and apparently the clubs agree on this, so the Giants threw in Ramon Ramirez. Problem for the Mets is, Ramon Ramirez is a fungible reliever. Every team has a handful of Ramon Ramirezes lying around. Paying him just means you don't have to pay some other largely identical guy.

Dafatone: Oveer the past four years, Ramirez has put up an era of 2.77 (I know, reliever era is sketchy), a whip of 1.217, doesn't give up too many home runs, strikes guys out pretty well, while giving up too many but not way too many walks. There are many relievers like him, but the Mets certainly needed one

His peripherals suggest he was very lucky on home runs in 2011. Even if you assume his jump in strikeouts and improved ground ball rate are for real, only giving up homers on 5% of your fly balls looks fluky. (Even teams that play in pitcher's parks like SDP and WSH are 8+%.) If you instead assume that he had some luck and favorable park effects, he looks like a pitcher who will put up a more pedestrian ERA going forward. The walks in particular have plagued him his whole career.

To be fair, I generally don't value relievers very highly, even "closers".