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(Telegraph)   Execution drug leaves prisoners dying in agony   (telegraph.co.uk) divider line 472
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19539 clicks; posted to Main » on 09 Oct 2003 at 12:42 PM (10 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2003-10-09 02:47:01 PM
You can INDEED pass information on to others if you are executed. Information like:

"Dag, I killed some people and I was executed as a result. You MAY not want to kill people if being executed would ruin your day, because these mofo's mean business! Now I'm all dead and stuff!"

Sure they don't actually don't say all that with WORDS, but everyone who has been executed for killing others sure puts a damper on any murder plans I might have had.
 
2003-10-09 02:47:13 PM
SlakMastaG You bet I have, and am.

As I've already pointed out. It's NOT a solution. So if suspending the death penalty until a better solution can be arrived at isn't going to change much, is it?

And the solution is obviously much more huge than can be written into a concise post (and I won't be so smartass as to say I have it, because I don't). But it must be there if there are OTHER COUNTRIES EXISTING AT THIS VERY MOMENT who do not have the death penalty AND do not have anywhere near the number of murderers, and near zero mass murderers, spree killers, serial killers, torture-killers that the United States of America does. The U.S.A. has something seriously farked up going on and the death penalty is doing nothing to fix it. It is only a symptom of a much bigger problem, that needs a much better and bigger solution.

Yeah, easier said than done, but it doesn't mean there's time wasted in at least saying it.
 
2003-10-09 02:49:13 PM
Guy Paul Morin
David Milgaard
Rubin Carter
Thomas Sophonow

4 innocent men who would be dead if the death penalty had been applied.

if you're OK with using the death penalty as "justice", then are you OK with the "justice" being meted out on YOU when the wrongly convicted are put to death? By your own rationalle, does not a purposeless death deserve retribution by society?
 
2003-10-09 02:49:34 PM
I'm gathering that most of you agree with torturing someone to death, because he tortured someone to death, but thats alright, because he did it first.

The fact that none of you is able to see that you have become murderers in exacting revenge is scary.

The death penalty is beyond stupid, and those that think that "eye for an eye" works, is an uneducated redneck fool, living in the dark ages where this sort of thing was condoned.

/runs
 
2003-10-09 02:49:42 PM
fenester:

"wheatweasel: the funniest part of your proposition is that, were it implemented, you would be one of the first to go."

Oh, well, in that case...
 
2003-10-09 02:50:42 PM
Why not solve both problems at once and create a national network of registered would-be murderers. When someone is up for the death peanalty, one lucky registrant would be selected, flown to the site, and would murder the convicted. No expensive drugs or doctors, only a plane ticket.

Heh.
 
2003-10-09 02:52:55 PM
Anyhow, if you *really* want to punish somebody, put em in a 6 foot by 6 foot box and serve them shiatty food for the rest of their life. If jail is really that cushy and welfare-y, why arn't you guys moving in and taking advantage of us sucker tax payers? ;)

If a lifetime prison sentence is so much worse than lethal injection, why do people on death row spend so much effort trying to get their sentences commuted to life? Huh? HUH?!?
 
2003-10-09 02:53:14 PM
Captain Obvious
I'm sorry, that that's complete BS based on a skewed report. That report assumes that once the prisoner gets a life sentance, they just happily trot off to jail and don't appeal.

Intriguing! Especially considering it's rather obvious, captain, from reading the article linked earlier that one of the conclusions of the study in California was that "These costs are not the result of frivolous appeals but rather the result of Constitutionally mandated safeguards... "

http://www.deathpenalty.org/facts/other/costly.shtml
 
2003-10-09 02:55:18 PM
Franky17, logic is not on your side.
 
2003-10-09 02:56:02 PM
If a lifetime prison sentence is so much worse than lethal injection, why do people on death row spend so much effort trying to get their sentences commuted to life? Huh? HUH?!?

Why do cancer patients try to cling on as long as they can.
Fear of death mate. Try it sometime. I've been close, and it scared the shiat out of me.
 
2003-10-09 02:56:08 PM
fark 'em if they can't take a joke.
 
2003-10-09 02:58:58 PM
Captain Obvious

I may have misread your original post, but do you have the typical costs and numbers of appeals granted in life-imprisonment cases?

If not, you have little to stand on, imho.
 
2003-10-09 03:00:28 PM
if you're OK with using the death penalty as "justice", then are you OK with the "justice" being meted out on YOU when the wrongly convicted are put to death? By your own rationalle, does not a purposeless death deserve retribution by society?

Uh, those 'found innocent on death row' stories you've been hearing are based on reversed convictions not finding of innocence -- it's pathetically easy to do. Sure, they found Col. Mustard in the library with the bloody candlestick, four eyewitnesses and a signed confession, but if Mustard's lawyer forgot to apprise him of the option to plead insanity and thus avoid death row...wrongfully convicted! And of course the DA will drop the charges; they hate trying to prove twenty-year-old cases.
 
2003-10-09 03:00:55 PM
ruta

The solution I was referring to was the solution of the problem of what to do with people who commit violent crimes.

There is also a problem in this country with the number of murderers and serial rapists and such. However, this is not the same problem as the one above. Trying to solve this problem by eliminating the solution to another problem is NEVER going to work.
 
2003-10-09 03:01:15 PM
So after the first injection, kick 'em in the balls, that will take their mind off of whatever other pain they're preoccupied with.
 
2003-10-09 03:01:44 PM

Hee-hee! And if we follow WheatWeasel's advice, where it's okay to kill a few innocents to get all the guilty ones... Well, does that mean it's okay for me to kill you, WheatWeasel, when the dumbarse policies you suggest result in that innocent death? That'd be murder, wouldn't it?

I-I-I get to kill Wheat-Weasel! I-I-I get to kill Wheat-Weasel!

 
2003-10-09 03:03:04 PM
"We might use nature to guide our moral principles by first noting the way in which she operates, and proceeding to behave in precisely the opposite manner."

You mean by driving Hummers, war for oil, and by watching "The Price is Right?"

Your own words are much better then that lame ass quote. This is Fark, not college comp 101. Let the freshmen use the unnecessary quotes...
 
2003-10-09 03:03:30 PM
fark em. they deserve some pain. dying hurts - go figure. there may be pain impulses on the spine, but who's to say the receptors in the brain are even on?

all that aside, the only reason i dont support capital punishment is that in the american system, it'd just be cheaper to lock them up for life with absolutely no chance of parole. i'm for it in theory, don't get me wrong.
but killing someone in america involves too many appeals and too much taxpayer money.
 
2003-10-09 03:04:05 PM
2003-10-09 01:47:00 PM Tricky Chicken
bullseye-
Your assertion that noone has killed after being executed isn't entirely true. While not directly responsible for the murders committed in their names, Jesus and Mohammad are each individually responsible for more murders than Stalin, PolPot, Pinochet, Hitler, Milosevich and Every Serial Killer combined

OKAY DOKAY SMOKAY - you're view is skewed here. No where did Jesus say go kill in my name... Muhamnad - kinda sorta in a way. But the point is that others (i.e. Crusaders) thought to banish through force (i.e. KILL) those that opposed their religious beliefs. Now take into affect that if those that commited mass murders, were exicuted by "human law" (seperation of church and state) before having the opportunity to slay whomever they deamed(yes Slayer does rule!) there wouldn't have been a problem. I believe in teaching ethics through rationalisation - However Richard Ramerez nor Charles Manson are "rational" individuals.

KILL THEM ALL - OBEY, OR FEAR MY RATH (that's pretty much GOD's words, I'm down with it)
 
2003-10-09 03:04:40 PM
I kind of like the Chinese way of dealing with this. One shot in the back of the head and then bill the family for the bullet.
 
2003-10-09 03:05:43 PM
There are times when torture is deserved? Justified? Equivalent to justice? Intriguing. Please elucidate.

Do a quick net search for news stories of perpetrators who murder their victims in various nasty ways (you'll get a LOT of results), and then tell me that a slow death is not exactly what they deserve.
 
2003-10-09 03:07:34 PM
2003-10-09 03:01:44 PM Lenny_da_Hog

Hee-hee! And if we follow WheatWeasel's advice, where it's okay to kill a few innocents to get all the guilty ones... Well, does that mean it's okay for me to kill you, WheatWeasel

Okay, here comes the part where I say that it's not okay to lock up a few innocents to get all the guilty ones, and impaler calls me an asshat. Again.

So it IS okay to lock up a few innocents? I'm so confused ...
 
2003-10-09 03:08:27 PM
fenester

How would you know jackass? Try responding with an actual arguement rather then an insult.

Lenny_da_Hog

Hmm, well, ok, but I have to see some real action towards something starting up, otherwise if its all for naught then whats the point. Get a plan of action enforced and then I will give you my home address...
 
2003-10-09 03:08:56 PM
WheatWeasel:

Since 1973, 111 people in 25 states have been released from death row with evidence of their innocence. (Latest release, Joseph Amrine, July 28, 2003)

Above from here (new window - Death Penalty Information Centre).

Also some more information here (new window - ACLU)
 
2003-10-09 03:12:20 PM
For most of the pro-death people here, the approval of capital punishment seems to be merely a desire for revenge. That is not a civilized or justified response to crime.

Also, how many of you pro-deathers also profess to be Christians? (not particularly relevant to the topic -- but, interesting nonetheless.)
 
2003-10-09 03:12:56 PM
snuff3r

hmm thats almost 4 a year

Tell you what, when less then 4 people a year are murdered then we can talk about no death penality. Until then I say my cliff suggestion should rule. And you are just talking about "prisoners" what about all the stupid people that also need to die?

sheesh people, cover all the bases...
 
2003-10-09 03:13:08 PM
SlakMastaG

The solution I was referring to was the solution of the problem of what to do with people who commit violent crimes.

So, what's the difference between killing them and letting them rot in prison for life? And not just to THEM but to wider society? What does it say to a society that the people they have put in power will tell them: "We have the power to kill and we will use it, but you are not allowed to." What does it say to a society that any one of them could, in theory, someday be the President of the United States of America but in reality, it's far more likely and inevitable that they'll never be allowed any kind of position of power by the rest of their society, so they might as well make their own kind of power? And the best sort of power, as exemplified by the duly elected people in power, is to exact death.
 
2003-10-09 03:13:19 PM
I don't want a plan of action. I'm just always looking for legal ways to kill people, without punishment. You know. I'm a product of TV. Your world sounds pretty darned nice.
 
2003-10-09 03:16:02 PM
Son of Thunder
Do a quick net search for news stories of perpetrators who murder their victims in various nasty ways (you'll get a LOT of results), and then tell me that a slow death is not exactly what they deserve.

You use the euphemism "slow death" where you pretty clearly mean "torture" here. Interesting. Besides - I thought God was the one who would determine what everyone "deserved" - "don't worry they'll get what's comin to 'em!"

Maybe you should have been around when this was being penned, they could have used your insights:

Amendment VIII
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.


At this point I think it suffices to say that we have different definitions of "justice".
 
2003-10-09 03:16:33 PM
wheatweasel: What my statement implied is that judging by your statements on this thread, you are part of the dead weight/societal disease that you propose to remove (kill).
 
2003-10-09 03:17:30 PM
I guess we aren't that different from Iran. Funny.
 
2003-10-09 03:19:42 PM
Lenny_da_Hog "I'm just always looking for legal ways to kill people, without punishment.

As noted in my previous post: you could always run for President!

Sorry! Knee jerk troll response. But, sersiously: Governor of Texas, state executioner, juror, the career opportunities in your chosen field are quite diverse!

Meh, I gotta go out and start changing the world. Thanks for the (remarkably mostly rational) debate, everyone. Ta!
 
2003-10-09 03:21:58 PM
And please, don't kill me for my html inneptitude.
 
2003-10-09 03:24:19 PM
Slutbucket

That was just my little anti killing for religeon rant.
 
2003-10-09 03:24:50 PM
Paybacks are a biatch,and what goes around,comes around
 
2003-10-09 03:25:47 PM
FranceSurrenders

Uh, those 'found innocent on death row' stories you've been hearing are based on reversed convictions not finding of innocence

You really should look up the stories of those four men whose names i posted. these were not overturned convictions due to some lazy crown prosecutor. these were innocent men. had they been unlucky enough to have been convicted in the USA (or iran, syria, saudi or taliban-afghanistan) they would be dead before their innocence was revealed through new testimony and DNA evidence.

I ask again....had YOUR state been the state that killed innocent men, who within your state should then be executed for the needless death of an innocent?
 
2003-10-09 03:27:25 PM
Oh ok wheatweasel. Collateral damage. Since you put it that way... it must be good then...

/sarcasm

I guess it's fine and dandy till one of those 4 a year is your mother, father, cousin, sister, brother, etc.. fark it. Lets go the whole hog and just randomly shoot people on the street. We can run a lotto system!

Revenge drops you to the level of the murderer when you become a murderer yourself. Simple as that.

Might I add that those 111 are the few that they know about. There is a very good chance that there are some that were never able to prove innocence before execution.
 
2003-10-09 03:31:12 PM
fenester

Whys that? I wasnt recommending anyone commit a crime. I wasnt sitting with glazed eye and a blank stare. I put some thought into what I was saying and I wasnt trying to sell it or use it to gain power. How did what I say make me one that does not in some way contribute to society. Its just an idea. Me announcing that idea in no way places me in the "groups" I am identifing. So besides my lack of accurate spelling ability, what qualifies me?
 
2003-10-09 03:32:13 PM
Okay, here comes the part where I say that it's not okay to lock up a few innocents to get all the guilty ones, and impaler calls me an asshat. Again.

That's funny. The post where I called you an asshat you were implying that we should have total anarchy because 100% correct convictions can't be dealt out in any case, be it capitol punishment, or a small fine. The reason being was because people were giving that argument for the death penalty. As if farking up a death penalty conviction isnt any different than messing up a speeding ticket.

There is only one sentence, if carried out, that can't be rectified in anyway whatsoever - capitol punishment.
 
2003-10-09 03:32:49 PM
Well, you can be a Christian and still be in favor of the death penalty - the Bible is full of examples of death-worthy offenses and "Thou shall not kill" is misinterpreted - the real commandment is "Thou shall not murder", i.e., spill innocent blood.

(There you go, anti-Xtians - there's one of the so-called "Bible contradicts itself" cannards explained).

But people nowadays are always making things so complex - a simple bullet to the head should suffice and be as humane as possible.

Wanting to see someone suffer is "revenge" and wrong - wanting to see justice done in a swift and enduring manner is right.
 
2003-10-09 03:33:29 PM
2003-10-09 03:31:12 PM wheatweasel


fenester

Whys that? I wasnt recommending anyone commit a crime. I wasnt sitting with glazed eye and a blank stare. I put some thought into what I was saying and I wasnt trying to sell it or use it to gain power. How did what I say make me one that does not in some way contribute to society. Its just an idea. Me announcing that idea in no way places me in the "groups" I am identifing. So besides my lack of accurate spelling ability, what qualifies me?


What level of education have you gotten?
 
2003-10-09 03:38:34 PM
i have a better idea - give them enough heroin to kill an elephant - in one big fat dose. They'll blast off and just never wake up.
 
2003-10-09 03:40:15 PM
"We might use nature to guide our moral principles by first noting the way in which she operates, and proceeding to behave in precisely the opposite manner."

You mean by driving Hummers, war for oil, and by watching "The Price is Right?"


I believe that Gould was referring to the Hobbesian "nasty, brutish, and short" state of nature.
 
2003-10-09 03:45:21 PM
snuff3r

I never said it would be easy, but honestly, given one person is basically the same worth as another, it really comes down to a numbers game. If it is my mom then so be it, thats how is has to be, its a fair system. Oh and I never proposed radom murder or revenge. You set up the requirements, a means of determining those requirements, and you act on them with the knowledge that humans are mistake prone. People die wrongly in prison, building bridges, in oil wells, etc. Face it, people die for progress. People are just placing more emphasis on these accidental executions because of the false morality they imply emplies.
A man that dies during the bulding of a bridge is one who sacrifices for progress. Elimiting those that do the masses harm is progress as well. Its all progress baby, but I dont see you biatchin about dead men when your driving over that bridge...
Need any more examples? take a look at your nearest third world country. Everyone in here complains about human rights, this and that, what they mean is American human rights, because lets face it, we could never ever ever live like we do without people in third worlds living like they do. But the minute you try to give them aid, or pay them a reasonable amount for their resources, you hear the populace biatching about gas prices and so fourth. It's a tough world baby, and if you really want to DO anything, you have to be tough as well, and make some brutal ass decisions. I just figured I would side with the brutal decisions that would advace us, here. Otherwise lets say screw it and give all our wealth to those people, and live like cave men, with cave men justice. Which do you want, pushing them off the cliff of death in an orderly fashion, or beating their heads in one at a time with a club? Its all good by me...
 
2003-10-09 03:48:28 PM
half the big-balled, brave-talking, "damn any compassion" assfarks in here bleating on and on about how they'd love to be the one to pull the switch/make the murderer suffer/etc etc etc would crap their pants and have nightmares for the rest of their hypocritical little lives if they actually witnessed a human being die in front of them from unnatural causes.

Yes, even you, the big mouth who's eventually going to reply to this with false bravado and loud-mouthed bluster.

And you know what? That's a good thing. It means you're *gasp* human.

Capital punishment is awful. So is murder. So is crime, in general.

Do I believe that capital punishment deters crime? No. It absolutely does not. There's been not one iota of evidence indicating that it does.

That said, do I believe that there are some crimes so terrible that the only fitting punishment is death?

Yes. Unfortunately, there are.

But we, as a supposedly advanced society, should feel sickened by the fact that to punish a crime we are forced to resort to such an act.

Those who enjoy the thought of punishing someone this way (and I mean *really* enjoy, not just boast about like some of the sheep in here) are probably people we should all be afraid of.
 
2003-10-09 03:50:38 PM
Good. Next up, inject it into their pee-hole while dippiong their nuts in Tabasco. Who cares if they feel pain. fark'em -
 
2003-10-09 03:51:13 PM
Joshg

Yea well you didnt qualify your quote by putting it in context now did ya?

Besides, have you watched the price is right lately? Some of those people that dont win have a pretty "nasty, brutish, and short" time of it.
 
2003-10-09 03:53:32 PM
wheatweasel: How much more power could you have than deciding whether people live or die? Killing people who are unemployed or unfortunate or lazy or [insert any of your other criteria listed in your previous posts], does not, IMHO, contribute to society. Even accepting your premise that the people fitting your definition are a hinderance to society as a whole, a society which allowed their arbitrary murder would be a far worse place to live than one which allowed them to live.
And the idea underlying my admittedly derogatory remark earlier is that someone who would condone such arbitrary killing is not fit to sit in judgement.
 
2003-10-09 03:53:46 PM

Forget an argument about the death penalty.

Let's clean up our utterly shiatty judicial system first and get a little reform in the halls of justice. Innocent people don't need to die because of someone else's mistake.

 
2003-10-09 03:56:26 PM
fenester
 
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