There is a difference between unions and the UAW

Actually, that is kinda commie. Good for them.

/dnrtfa

At least it wasn't done by force from the government. That's the difference.

Good luck getting public sector unions to do something like that...

/FU tax payers

mrtoadswildride: There is a difference between unions and the UAW

Well, there is a difference between unions in the US(I GOT MINE I DON'T CARE ABOUT THE COMPANY) and, apparently, unions abroad(Well, gee, if the company goes under than my labor contract is barely worth wiping my ass with).

MilesTeg: Good luck getting public sector unions to do something like that...

/FU tax payers

How about fark you, asshole. Public Sector Unions have taken pay cuts and freezes.

//Asshole, you're part of this country's problem.

bhcompy: Well, there is a difference between unions in the US(I GOT MINE I DON'T CARE ABOUT THE COMPANY) and, apparently, unions abroad(Well, gee, if the company goes under than my labor contract is barely worth wiping my ass with).

There's also a difference between intelligent comments and the above quote.

Unions are a reaction to abuses by employers. Those abuses are possible because the laws protecting workers are weak (if they exist at all). If the laws protected workers, the unions would be a redundant expense for the workers. Unions create concentrations of money and power... which attract the corrupt.

Don't hate the unions, hate the absence of worker protection and abusive employers.

I'm pretty sure most people would take a wage cut to keep their employer afloat in hard times if they weren't afraid that that cut would become their new wage when the company was back on it's feet and doing fine again. Lets just see how eager this company is to reinstate the pre-cut wage and regular Christmas holiday once they are back on their feet.

ongbok: I'm pretty sure most people would take a wage cut to keep their employer afloat in hard times if they weren't afraid that that cut would become their new wage when the company was back on it's feet and doing fine again. Lets just see how eager this company is to reinstate the pre-cut wage and regular Christmas holiday once they are back on their feet.

I won't take a wage cut. I won't even accept a year without a raise if I can help it. If your employer is showing signs of trouble it's a good time to test the market to see if someone else in your area is hiring. You *really* don't want to wait until your employer folds, dumping a *LOT* of employees on the market competing for a small number of jobs. The earlier you jump ship the better it is for you and your family. Of course, if you're in an industry that's totally devastated (like construction) you're out of luck...

Sergeant Grumbles: bhcompy: Well, there is a difference between unions in the US(I GOT MINE I DON'T CARE ABOUT THE COMPANY) and, apparently, unions abroad(Well, gee, if the company goes under than my labor contract is barely worth wiping my ass with).

There's also a difference between intelligent comments and the above quote.

Sorry, this comment will never reach me because of current ILWU pickets at the ports of Long Beach and Los Angeles.

trotsky: MilesTeg: Good luck getting public sector unions to do something like that...

/FU tax payers

How about fark you, asshole. Public Sector Unions have taken pay cuts and freezes.

//Asshole, you're part of this country's problem.

That's the kind of incisive and clear thinking that made places like Detroit, Chicago, Upstate New York, California and countless municipalities across this country into paradises for the worker.

bhcompy: Sorry, this comment will never reach me because of current ILWU pickets at the ports of Long Beach and Los Angeles.

Surprised you seem to think the strikes are because the unions want to screw their employers, and not the other way around. If employers treated their workers fairly, there'd be no need for unions.

Sergeant Grumbles: Surprised you seem to think the strikes are because the unions want to screw their employers, and not the other way around. If employers treated their workers fairly, there'd be no need for unions.

To be fair, and I know nothing about the specific pickets mentioned, people have widely varied definitions of whether they're getting screwed.

WellBelowAverage: trotsky: MilesTeg: Good luck getting public sector unions to do something like that...

/FU tax payers

How about fark you, asshole. Public Sector Unions have taken pay cuts and freezes.

//Asshole, you're part of this country's problem.

That's the kind of incisive and clear thinking that made places like Detroit, Chicago, Upstate New York, California and countless municipalities across this country into paradises for the worker.



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Yep, I will put all my trust into today's employers. I will trust my corporate overlords to provide me with just enough money to live on and hope they decide not to cut more. I will trust Scott Walker or John Kasich to help me if I have an issue.

There is a middle, sure, corrupt Unions exist but to say that things would be better without them is pandering to the corporations who will happily sell you out for a nickel increase in the CEO's bonus, or pandering to a politician bought and paid for by out-of-state charter schools who charge more and deliver less.

Get your head out of your ass and realize that workers needs organization to protect themselves. Instead of dragging everyone down to the level of a wage slave, work to make you and your fellow employees lives better.

the_geek: Sergeant Grumbles: Surprised you seem to think the strikes are because the unions want to screw their employers, and not the other way around. If employers treated their workers fairly, there'd be no need for unions.

To be fair, and I know nothing about the specific pickets mentioned, people have widely varied definitions of whether they're getting screwed.

ILWU pickets are special. Longshoremen make a great deal of money and organized crime is generally involved because controlling who gets the jobs is a great racket. They measure their salaries like professional athletes do. They want a fixed percentage of the income from the shippers to go towards salaries, which is why tenured longshoremen make well over $100k to operate a forklift.

In reality, ILWU strikes aren't about screwing the employer or the employer screwing the worker(they already makes tons of money on both sides), they're about workers screwing you and me. The last ILWU strike that shut down the terminal complex in LA lasted for weeks and created things like criticial medicinal shortages at hospitals and pharmacies and drastically spiked the sales price of many items(the items that were in stock, many items simply went out of stock for the duration of the strike)

bhcompy: ILWU pickets are special. Longshoremen make a great deal of money and organized crime is generally involved because controlling who gets the jobs is a great racket. They measure their salaries like professional athletes do. They want a fixed percentage of the income from the shippers to go towards salaries, which is why tenured longshoremen make well over $100k to operate a forklift.

In reality, ILWU strikes aren't about screwing the employer or the employer screwing the worker(they already makes tons of money on both sides), they're about workers screwing you and me. The last ILWU strike that shut down the terminal complex in LA lasted for weeks and created things like criticial medicinal shortages at hospitals and pharmacies and drastically spiked the sales price of many items(the items that were in stock, many items simply went out of stock for the duration of the strike)

I don't really mind how much money someone else makes so the $100k forklift operator doesn't concern me. That's a problem internal to the business employing that forklift operator.. they are probably not maximizing their profits but again that doesn't mean anything to me.

What I care about is whether or not they're actually getting screwed. I'll give you an example of how a friend of mine got screwed. His employer changed their pension plan in such a way that wiped out the value of 10 years worth of pension contributions. Can you imagine your employer taking back 10 years of 401k match? Well that's essentially what happened with the way they changed the pension plan. That is a case in which a person is getting screwed and I have sympathy for them wrt whether or not they are going to picket. The fact that the employer pays them $100k+ salary doesn't factor into the fact that the employer is retroactively reducing benefits from previous years' work.

bhcompy: In reality, ILWU strikes aren't about screwing the employer or the employer screwing the worker(they already makes tons of money on both sides), they're about workers screwing you and me.

This sounds like nothing more than "I hate unions because I was inconvenienced by one."

trotsky: WellBelowAverage: trotsky: MilesTeg: Good luck getting public sector unions to do something like that...

/FU tax payers

How about fark you, asshole. Public Sector Unions have taken pay cuts and freezes.

//Asshole, you're part of this country's problem.

That's the kind of incisive and clear thinking that made places like Detroit, Chicago, Upstate New York, California and countless municipalities across this country into paradises for the worker.



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Yep, I will put all my trust into today's employers. I will trust my corporate overlords to provide me with just enough money to live on and hope they decide not to cut more. I will trust Scott Walker or John Kasich to help me if I have an issue.

There is a middle, sure, corrupt Unions exist but to say that things would be better without them is pandering to the corporations who will happily sell you out for a nickel increase in the CEO's bonus, or pandering to a politician bought and paid for by out-of-state charter schools who charge more and deliver less.

Get your head out of your ass and realize that workers needs organization to protect themselves. Instead of dragging everyone down to the level of a wage slave, work to make you and your fellow employees lives better.

You're absolutely right about the corporate types.

There was a book published in 1997-8 called Die Broke (new window) .
Chapter two of that book is called "Quit Today" and essentially says:

The answer is quit today: mentally separate yourself from your employer and realize that you're on your own. Abandon any remaining tinges of loyalty to your employer (who long ago abandoned any sense of obligation to you) and instead think of your job and yourself the same way free-agent athletes do." (Pollan & Levine 1997, 11)

Unions are corrupt archaic scams that hurt workers and businesses.

And then what happens when they cant pay their bills because of the lower amount of income, those companies that relied on those payments will have reduced income and domino effect, etc

apeiron242: Unions are a reaction to abuses by employers. Those abuses are possible because the laws protecting workers are weak (if they exist at all). If the laws protected workers, the unions would be a redundant expense for the workers. Unions create concentrations of money and power... which attract the corrupt.

Don't hate the unions, hate the absence of worker protection and abusive employers.

Unions were a reaction to employer abuses. And I've said many times over the entire workforce should be thankful for what unions have done for workers and worker safety.

But they have outlived their usefulness. Workers comp, OSHA, whistle blower acts, (as well as countless other laws and government agencies) and the legal system have basically resolved many of the issues that workers faced years ago.

Most people don't hate unions...they hate corrupt unions...that pit workers against management, that use threats of strikes as a weapon to get salary increases, that watch as workers get laid off becuase pay/benefit cuts cuts are just a "management scam to screw them"...then tell those same people they now NEED the union more than ever to help protect them from the evil management that just laid them off.

WellBelowAverage: trotsky: MilesTeg: Good luck getting public sector unions to do something like that...

/FU tax payers

How about fark you, asshole. Public Sector Unions have taken pay cuts and freezes.

//Asshole, you're part of this country's problem.

That's the kind of incisive and clear thinking that made places like Detroit, Chicago, Upstate New York, California and countless municipalities across this country into paradises for the worker.



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That chart doesn't show pay cuts or freezes. So thanks for contributing nothing to the discussion.

L.A. teachers vote to accept temporary pay cut to spare jobs (new window)

Miami-Dade Police union agree to pay cuts to avoid layoffs (new window)

Pay cut expected as union settles with university (new window)


Meanwhile:
Newsday bosses get raises after union members accept pay cuts (new window)

mrtoadswildride: that watch as workers get laid off becuase pay/benefit cuts cuts are just a "management scam to screw them"...then tell those same people they now NEED the union more than ever to help protect them from the evil management that just laid them off.

Have you SEEN corporate America lately?

This story doesn't fit my "All unions are evil" viewpoint! Somebody help me, I'm so afraid!

MilesTeg: Good luck getting public sector unions to do something like that...

/FU tax payers

Ahh, there we go. Now I feel better!

Mike Chewbacca: WellBelowAverage: trotsky: MilesTeg: Good luck getting public sector unions to do something like that...

/FU tax payers

How about fark you, asshole. Public Sector Unions have taken pay cuts and freezes.

//Asshole, you're part of this country's problem.

That's the kind of incisive and clear thinking that made places like Detroit, Chicago, Upstate New York, California and countless municipalities across this country into paradises for the worker.



[www.intellectualtakeout.org image 640x451]

That chart doesn't show pay cuts or freezes. So thanks for contributing nothing to the discussion.

L.A. teachers vote to accept temporary pay cut to spare jobs (new window)

Miami-Dade Police union agree to pay cuts to avoid layoffs (new window)

Pay cut expected as union settles with university (new window)


Meanwhile:
Newsday bosses get raises after union members accept pay cuts (new window)

In the real world (the one not ; financed by forcibly taking money from people via taxation) people lose their jobs permanently or take lower paying jobs for years or maybe forever. Their retirements are not guaranteed by other people's money.

After years of making more (and with better retirement plans) than their private sector counterparts, they are now slowing the rate of increase or temporarily taking a cut (not really a permanent pay cut).....boo farking hoo.

WellBelowAverage: In the real world (the one not ; financed by forcibly taking money from people via taxation)

Stopped reading. Nothing after that aside could possibly be worth reading.
Don't like taxes? Somalia awaits.

Sergeant Grumbles: bhcompy: In reality, ILWU strikes aren't about screwing the employer or the employer screwing the worker(they already makes tons of money on both sides), they're about workers screwing you and me.

This sounds like nothing more than "I hate unions because I was inconvenienced by one."

Me? No. I wasn't inconvenienced. The guy at the hospital that needed medicine that came via the ports was.

Sergeant Grumbles: WellBelowAverage: In the real world (the one not ; financed by forcibly taking money from people via taxation)

Stopped reading. Nothing after that aside could possibly be worth reading.
Don't like taxes? Somalia awaits.

Taxes are necessary to fund essential government services that people cannot do for themselves and contribute to an orderly society.

Taxes to float corrupt public sector unions and the contracts they intimidated some corrupt politician to sign...are abusive.

Nice try junior.

bhcompy: The guy at the hospital that needed medicine that came via the ports was.

While I can sympathize, I fail to see why this is a black mark against unions. Or is it the Chargers' fault when an ambulance gets stuck in football traffic?

WellBelowAverage: Taxes to float corrupt public sector unions and the contracts they intimidated some corrupt politician to sign...are abusive.

When this is actually a big problem and not some manufactured outrage by anti-government corporate shills, let me know. If you're going to biatch about teachers getting three months off or social workers getting a generous pension, I was right to quit reading when I did, and foolish for continuing to respond.

MilesTeg: Good luck getting public sector unions to do something like that...

/FU tax payers

Keep whining about your imaginary oppression their crybaby..

Sergeant Grumbles: WellBelowAverage: Taxes to float corrupt public sector unions and the contracts they intimidated some corrupt politician to sign...are abusive.

When this is actually a big problem and not some manufactured outrage by anti-government corporate shills, let me know. If you're going to biatch about teachers getting three months off or social workers getting a generous pension, I was right to quit reading when I did, and foolish for continuing to respond.

You forgot punching babies and strangling puppies...that's what the anti union crowd is all about.

Sergeant Grumbles: bhcompy: The guy at the hospital that needed medicine that came via the ports was.

While I can sympathize, I fail to see why this is a black mark against unions. Or is it the Chargers' fault when an ambulance gets stuck in football traffic?

Or is it the policeman's fault when someone loots your house because police are on strike?

mod3072: This story doesn't fit my "All unions are evil" viewpoint! Somebody help me, I'm so afraid!

Thats what the con force field is for.

It blocks out any discouraging word.

bhcompy: Or is it the policeman's fault when someone loots your house because police are on strike?

Well, my implication was that I didn't think so. Do you?

bhcompy: Sergeant Grumbles: bhcompy: The guy at the hospital that needed medicine that came via the ports was.

While I can sympathize, I fail to see why this is a black mark against unions. Or is it the Chargers' fault when an ambulance gets stuck in football traffic?

Or is it the policeman's fault when someone loots your house because police are on strike?

Yeah that happens all the time.

Happened to me 4 times yesterday alone.

Sergeant Grumbles: bhcompy: Or is it the policeman's fault when someone loots your house because police are on strike?

Well, my implication was that I didn't think so. Do you?

Yes, I do. I could care less if Teamsters strike at UPS, but there are essential jobs that must be done regardless of labor situation because it is ethically the right thing to do. It particularly pisses me off when the people that are striking do not have a money problem in the first place. Handle your labor issues without hurting the general public

Simple solution to both sides of the union issue(s).

Set a much lower hourly rate floor, and then award the union with a straight up percentage of profits. Then if the union members decide to fark around and waste money, all they are doing is collectively lowering their take home pay. Let the union police their own workers at that point. If workers noticed that fellow worker A is a screwup costing him money out of his pay, they'll lobby to have worker A canned. Problem solved.

bhcompy: it is ethically the right thing to do.

If that's the system we're operating under, then it's just as much on the employer to make sure the workers don't strike as it is for the workers not to. They'd have just as much moral obligation and you're showing your bias if you suggest otherwise.
If you're saying the workers shouldn't strike, then they need some damn good protections to prevent employer abuse.

aneki: Set a much lower hourly rate floor, and then award the union with a straight up percentage of profits. Then if the union members decide to fark around and waste money, all they are doing is collectively lowering their take home pay. Let the union police their own workers at that point. If workers noticed that fellow worker A is a screwup costing him money out of his pay, they'll lobby to have worker A canned. Problem solved.

I support this 100%.

Just like in Wisconsin were the unions not only took pay cuts before Walker, but agreed to everything that he wanted, and that still wasn't good enough because socialism.

As to awarding union members a percentage of the profits, that would be great and fair, unfortunately the owners would never agree to straight profit sharing because that would cut into their own profits. Shortsighted of them, but that is what would happen.

the_geek: I don't really mind how much money someone else makes so the $100k forklift operator doesn't concern me. That's a problem internal to the business employing that forklift operator.. they are probably not maximizing their profits but again that doesn't mean anything to me.

It should concern you: Every business is going to try and achieve a level of profit that it is comfortable with. When you remember that profit=income-expenses, and that excessive labor costs will result in higher retail prices, it costs you money directly out of your pocket. It may only add a few cents to the cost of that imported doohickey you just bought, but it adds up over time.

Sergeant Grumbles: bhcompy: it is ethically the right thing to do.

If that's the system we're operating under, then it's just as much on the employer to make sure the workers don't strike as it is for the workers not to. They'd have just as much moral obligation and you're showing your bias if you suggest otherwise.
If you're saying the workers shouldn't strike, then they need some damn good protections to prevent employer abuse.

And the ones I'm talking about have nothing to do with employer abuse. They have to do with people who already make good money trying to get more money off the people that make more money than they do. It's like the NBA strike, but with additional negative affects to average people thrown in the mix.

Hell, the longshoremen refuse to use the new terminal built in Long Beach because it's too safe, too high tech, and too efficient. This means less need for things like overtime and less hazard pay. Tell me more about employer abuse, particularly in regards to working conditions, when the workers refuse to use safer facilities.

aneki: Simple solution to both sides of the union issue(s).

Set a much lower hourly rate floor, and then award the union with a straight up percentage of profits. Then if the union members decide to fark around and waste money, all they are doing is collectively lowering their take home pay. Let the union police their own workers at that point. If workers noticed that fellow worker A is a screwup costing him money out of his pay, they'll lobby to have worker A canned. Problem solved.

+1

Also: incentivizes unions to very carefully consider their demands for sweet-ass benefits vs. the success of the industry they're working in and the profitability of the company they're working for _UAW.

/aneki for president!

aneki: Simple solution to both sides of the union issue(s).

Set a much lower hourly rate floor, and then award the union with a straight up percentage of profits. Then if the union members decide to fark around and waste money, all they are doing is collectively lowering their take home pay. Let the union police their own workers at that point. If workers noticed that fellow worker A is a screwup costing him money out of his pay, they'll lobby to have worker A canned. Problem solved.

Indeed a good solution. Incentivizing people who have no incentive to work any harder generates good results.

Good example: it takes years to build an overpass in southern California, with cost overruns and tons of overtime thrown in. But after the Northridge quake, the state and county told the contractors that if they complete the same work in a certain timeperiod(like 3-6 months) they'll be paid huge bonuses. So what did they do? They did the work under time and under budget and got paid huge bonuses. They make money, the people are happy, and the total cost is still less.

bhcompy: They have to do with people who already make good money trying to get more money off the people that make more money than they do.

If they think they're not getting their fair share of the money, they have a legitimate beef and striking is one of the only ways they can get their point across. Just because they're paid well doesn't mean they're getting paid what they're worth.

But at least we all seem to agree on aneki's idea. It eliminates many of the problems on both sides of the issue.

Sergeant Grumbles: mrtoadswildride: that watch as workers get laid off becuase pay/benefit cuts cuts are just a "management scam to screw them"...then tell those same people they now NEED the union more than ever to help protect them from the evil management that just laid them off.

Have you SEEN corporate America lately?

Yes. What is your point?

mrtoadswildride: Yes. What is your point?

Management is actively screwing workers and people do need unions more than ever to protect them from the evil management.
Try to not formulate hyberbole that's actually true next time.

I was unfortunate to be a member of one Union in my life. I don't have a grudge against unions, per se, but against SEIU I hold a mean one. Absolutely ineffective stewards and reps on site and supporting myself and coworkers, involved in more bullshiat and scam then the crooked healthcare system I worked for (Tenet Healthcare). If there was ever a match made in hell it was SEIU and Tenet together.

Google SEIU Lawsuit and google Tenet Lawsuit. The amounts of money that these farking aholes have shelled out in abuse makes me sick, mostly because every nickel of it was clipped from employees of Tenet, aka members of SEIU.