Done in one.

/What changed from the past 15 years?!..answer..he died. Letting people in out of guilt is a shiat move.

I will never understand why Cubs fans deify the 69' squad. Epic collapse, complete and utter choke job, didn't win a damn thing, and they are treated as conquering hero's. Just another layer of stupidity showing why that franchise is an utter and complete embarrassment.

So he wasn't good enough when he was alive, but whatever he's done from the grave really put him over the top with the voters?

okay...

The1andonlyZack: Done in one.

/What changed from the past 15 years?!..answer..he died. Letting people in out of guilt is a shiat move.

Then they should have voted him in while he was alive, like they should have done in the first place. He should have been in the whole time,

God damn you HoF from taking this away from him when he was alive.

ron santo is no dale murphy, and dale isnt in the hall

am I a bad person that I laughed when I heard this? that guy campaigned so hard for it, which was so off-putting.

also the 1969 Cubs now have four hall of famers. Is that more than the 70's Reds? Perez, Morgan, Rose, Bench. ok, equal. so I assume they won as many pennants and World Series?

My thoughts? Santo should be in. His numbers are pretty damn good for a third baseman, was a top-notch defender, and was/is hugely popular to boot. Kaat? Just not quite enough. Hodges? Numbers aren't good enough and he didn't manage long enough. If he had lived and managed longer, he would get in. Minoso? Another close, but no cigar guy. Just not quite enough numbers-wise. Oliva? Has my vote. Great all-around numbers for an extended period. Bavasi? Was around forever, and was GM of the Koufax/Drysdale Dodgers of the 60's, so I'd say he's as deserving as other execs in there, so I'd probably vote for him, but I'd need to do a bit more research before a final answer. Boyer? I'm a Cards fan and my dad loves him, but his numbers just aren't quite good enough. Finley? Was innovative, influentual and won multiple World Series. He has my vote. Reynolds? Numbers just not enough. Tiant? Numbers not enough.

In Summary:
Santo, Oliva, Finley I say yes.
Bavasi I say maybe.
Kaat, Hodges, Minoso, Boyer, Reynolds, Tiant, no.

farbekrieg: ron santo is no dale murphy, and dale isnt in the hall

Dale Murphy SHOULD be in the Hall.

A universal wrong was righted today.
At a price.

Shoudln't have been an issue, he was HoF all the way but ignorance, stupidity and the inflated ego's of major leauge players and writes didn't get him in while alive.

You bastards!

damn there are 4 of them in the hall, think ernie banks and billy williams deserve to be there, not so much for santo... who is the 4th?

Brother_Mouzone: am I a bad person that I laughed when I heard this? that guy campaigned so hard for it, which was so off-putting.

also the 1969 Cubs now have four hall of famers. Is that more than the 70's Reds? Perez, Morgan, Rose, Bench. ok, equal. so I assume they won as many pennants and World Series?

Rose HOF?

[indigomontoya.jpg]

farbekrieg: damn there are 4 of them in the hall, think ernie banks and billy williams deserve to be there, not so much for santo... who is the 4th?

Fergie Jenkins.

Tiberius Gracchus: farbekrieg: damn there are 4 of them in the hall, think ernie banks and billy williams deserve to be there, not so much for santo... who is the 4th?

Fergie Jenkins.

im so bad with players pre 1980 thanks

Here's a fun debate question. If you could kick one person out of the Hall of Fame, who would it be?

Meh. I mean, the HOF is a joke now anyways with Rice and Dawson recently getting in.

And now, this make it 4 Cubs from the 1960's teams in the HoF that didn't win a damn thing. And Cub fans love them. Go figure.

So the only way we can get Ray Guy into the football hall of fame is by killing him?

I don't like this idea.

The Veterans Committee is even more of a joke than it used to be. They need to give BBWAA voters an opportunity to remove undeserving players from the Hall, like Whitey Ford.

/just kidding

For reference, last month I put together a list (new window) of the high-water marks achieved by every Hall of Fame-eligible player on the writers' ballot who is not yet in (and got at least 2% of the vote at one point or another). Basically, the second tier of the Hall, given that the two groups wound up of roughly comparable size.

Hodges is the only guy to even get majority rule of the writers' ballot who is not yet in and not still on the ballot. The top ten at the time: Gil Hodges, Barry Larkin, Jack Morris, Lee Smith, Tony Oliva, Roger Maris, Ron Santo, Steve Garvey, Jeff Bagwell, Maury Wills.

With Santo's induction, he comes off that list, replaced by Marty Marion (who topped out at 40%).

The vote totals of the guys who got in really aren't comparable to each other. Too many variables that can twist a guy's final, induction-gaining number one way or the other. The vote totals of the guys who aren't in, they're a bit more comparable.

buckeyebrain: Rose HOF?

I wish I could say I was trolling with that one. whoops. so there. The Cubs actually do have more.

The Lone Talbot: Here's a fun debate question. If you could kick one person out of the Hall of Fame, who would it be?

Eppa Rixey. Don't talk about guys now getting in making the Hall a joke when back then they were pretty much horse-trading inductions the very second they got done taking care of all the obvious names. Harry Hooper should be junked, Roger Bresnahan needs to get out, all three parts of Tinker-to-Evers-to-Chance need to go (they are only in because of that poem).

The Lone Talbot: Here's a fun debate question. If you could kick one person out of the Hall of Fame, who would it be?

you know, I always wondered why Gaylord Perry got a pass for blatantly cheating. also, I agree with the person who said Rice and Dawson getting in as ridiculous.

Gosling: The Lone Talbot: Here's a fun debate question. If you could kick one person out of the Hall of Fame, who would it be?

Eppa Rixey. Don't talk about guys now getting in making the Hall a joke when back then they were pretty much horse-trading inductions the very second they got done taking care of all the obvious names. Harry Hooper should be junked, Roger Bresnahan needs to get out, all three parts of Tinker-to-Evers-to-Chance need to go (they are only in because of that poem).

Wasn't Chance actually good?

And my answer is Bill Mazerowski. Though he was a 10 time allstar. I wasn't around back then, was his glove really that good?

Because he didn't have a single better-than-league-average offensive season, ever.

/Or, Andre Dawson. Whichever Waner was "little poison" wasn't very deserving either. Can I just list Jack Morris in case he ever gets in?

Oh, you know who needs to have their Hall credentials questioned?

Frankie Frisch.

Not because of his playing numbers. Because when he got onto the Veterans Committee, all he did was get as many of his old Giants and Cardinals inducted as he possibly could. All he cared about. Even if they had absolutely no business being inducted. Frisch is the reason why Jesse Haines is a Hall of Famer. Frisch is the reason Dave Bancroft is a Hall of Famer, and Rube Marquard, and Chick Hafey, and Ross Youngs, and George Kelly, and Fred Lindstrom, and Jim Bottomley. All that was Frisch's fault. Some of those guys were bad enough that, when they compare HOF candidates to the actual HOF'ers, with the JAWS system, some of this list has to be removed from the Hall for statistical purposes just to make the numbers work.

So you know what? Let's kick FRISCH out for all the damage he did.

Morgan Bulkeley should be out. Bresnahan should be out. Chance should stay if you combine him as player/manager. Tinker/Evers out. Rixey wasn't that bad a choice for the Hall as others, but still shouldn't be there. Dawson SHOULD be in. Rice should not, but he's far from the worst in there. Perry should be in, but so should McGwire, Bonds, and Rose. Maz I don't know. Hard to decide on defensive guys sometimes. LLoyd "Little Poison" Waner should be out too.

Earle Combs, Chick Hafey, Dave Bancroft, Joe Sewell all stand out as non-deserving to be Hall of Famers to me as well.

Brother_Mouzone: The Lone Talbot: Here's a fun debate question. If you could kick one person out of the Hall of Fame, who would it be?

you know, I always wondered why Gaylord Perry got a pass for blatantly cheating. also, I agree with the person who said Rice and Dawson getting in as ridiculous.

Oh god, how did I forget this?

Gaylord Perry's HoF plaque mentions cheating! Screw him.

Brother_Mouzone: am I a bad person that I laughed when I heard this? that guy campaigned so hard for it, which was so off-putting.

also the 1969 Cubs now have four hall of famers. Is that more than the 70's Reds? Perez, Morgan, Rose, Bench. ok, equal. so I assume they won as many pennants and World Series?

The '69 Cubs were the 2012 Miami Heat of their time.

Gosling: Oh, you know who needs to have their Hall credentials questioned?

Frankie Frisch.

Not because of his playing numbers. Because when he got onto the Veterans Committee, all he did was get as many of his old Giants and Cardinals inducted as he possibly could. All he cared about. Even if they had absolutely no business being inducted. Frisch is the reason why Jesse Haines is a Hall of Famer. Frisch is the reason Dave Bancroft is a Hall of Famer, and Rube Marquard, and Chick Hafey, and Ross Youngs, and George Kelly, and Fred Lindstrom, and Jim Bottomley. All that was Frisch's fault. Some of those guys were bad enough that, when they compare HOF candidates to the actual HOF'ers, with the JAWS system, some of this list has to be removed from the Hall for statistical purposes just to make the numbers work.

So you know what? Let's kick FRISCH out for all the damage he did.

Yeah, those are the guys I'm thinking of. Frsich's "boys." Bottomley should stay tho. He's borderline, but I dunno "shrugs." Shouldn't have been voted in, but not bad enough to vote out. I thought Haines had better numbers than he did, but upon looking, he's out. Marquard wasn't good long enough. He had what? 4-5 good seasons? Youngs got in on the Addie Joss precedent. How good would he be if he didn't die? Thing is, Joss's career itself was good enough even with his death imo. Young's wasn't. Kelly and Lindstrom should be out.

I thought Barry Larkin was going to get in. Everyone kept saying this was going to be his year.

Good player but good players don't belong in Cooperstown. Not to mention that these Cubs teams were mostly deadful that he played on.

Funk Brothers: I thought Barry Larkin was going to get in. Everyone kept saying this was going to be his year.

Wrong Hall of Fame ballot.

Funk Brothers: I thought Barry Larkin was going to get in. Everyone kept saying this was going to be his year

Regular voting come out next month. This was just the Veterans Committee guys, no longer on the BBWAA ballot.

The Lone Talbot: Here's a fun debate question. If you could kick one person out of the Hall of Fame, who would it be?

Babe Ruth, he couldn't have been that great there are no color videos of him.

Wow, Santo in the Hall? I didn't think he had a leg to stand on.

yeah, if Barry Larkin gets in that would be bs. I dont know if this is heresay or not, but I never felt Paul Molitor was a HOFer either. To me, a Hall of famer is someone when they are playing, and you say, that guy is a hall of famer. that may sound obvious. but I grew up in the 70's and I knew Brett and Schmidt and Reggie were HOFers. not Don Sutton, and later Molitor and Rice and Dawson.

heresy. feh.

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: The Lone Talbot: Here's a fun debate question. If you could kick one person out of the Hall of Fame, who would it be?

As a player, Billy Martin. In eleven seasons, he hit .257 with 64 home runs. A journeyman with an attitude problem.

But as a manager, he belonged. If your team was within 8 games at the halfway point, fire your manager and hire Billy. He'd take your team to the playoffs. But then get rid of him, before he (and Art Fowler) destroys your pitching staff and beats up your front office. Best 1/2 season manager that ever lived.

Excellent points, but he's not in the Hall. But what managers shouldn't be in there that are?

Connie Mack, John McGraw, Wilbert Robinson, Joe McCarthy, Bill McKechnie, Miller Huggins, Casey Stengel, Bucky Harris, Al Lopez, Rube Foster, Walter Alston, Leo Durocher, Ned Hanlon, Earl Weaver, Tommy LaSorda, Frank Selee, Sparky Anderson, Billy Southworth, Dick Williams, and Whitey Herzog are all the managers currently in the Hall. Most obviously deserve to be in, but can you make a case to kick any out?

Am I here too early for the Pete Rose debate? I'll be back.

Brother_Mouzone: yeah, if Barry Larkin gets in that would be bs. I dont know if this is heresay or not, but I never felt Paul Molitor was a HOFer either. To me, a Hall of famer is someone when they are playing, and you say, that guy is a hall of famer. that may sound obvious. but I grew up in the 70's and I knew Brett and Schmidt and Reggie were HOFers. not Don Sutton, and later Molitor and Rice and Dawson.

Paul Molitor had 3319 hits with a .306 average. That says "Hall of Famer" to me.

The Lone Talbot: Brother_Mouzone: yeah, if Barry Larkin gets in that would be bs. I dont know if this is heresay or not, but I never felt Paul Molitor was a HOFer either. To me, a Hall of famer is someone when they are playing, and you say, that guy is a hall of famer. that may sound obvious. but I grew up in the 70's and I knew Brett and Schmidt and Reggie were HOFers. not Don Sutton, and later Molitor and Rice and Dawson.

Paul Molitor had 3319 hits with a .306 average. That says "Hall of Famer" to me.

3000 hits is a lock. Call it the "haha, sucks for you if you walk a lot!" rule.

Johnny Damon has an outside shot at being one of the worst Hall of Famers in a loooooong time.

The Lone Talbot: Brother_Mouzone: yeah, if Barry Larkin gets in that would be bs. I dont know if this is heresay or not, but I never felt Paul Molitor was a HOFer either. To me, a Hall of famer is someone when they are playing, and you say, that guy is a hall of famer. that may sound obvious. but I grew up in the 70's and I knew Brett and Schmidt and Reggie were HOFers. not Don Sutton, and later Molitor and Rice and Dawson.

Paul Molitor had 3319 hits with a .306 average. That says "Hall of Famer" to me.

And dreamy blue eyes. That can't hurt...

Dafatone: Gosling: The Lone Talbot: Here's a fun debate question. If you could kick one person out of the Hall of Fame, who would it be?

Eppa Rixey. Don't talk about guys now getting in making the Hall a joke when back then they were pretty much horse-trading inductions the very second they got done taking care of all the obvious names. Harry Hooper should be junked, Roger Bresnahan needs to get out, all three parts of Tinker-to-Evers-to-Chance need to go (they are only in because of that poem).

Wasn't Chance actually good?

Frank Chance is an interesting case. He was a good first baseman, but never factored into any MVP voting, once it came into being, or led the league more than once in anything but steals (which is somewhat remarkable for a first baseman). At the same time, he was they player-manager for the most dominant team of the era, and some argue all time (if I'm not mistaken, the 1906-1910 Cubs still hold the best winning percentages of all time for 1-, 2-, 3-, 4- &; 5 year spans, although they "only" had three league titles and two World Series in that time). It's hard to say he gets in solely as a player or as a manager, but as easily one of the most successful player-manager of all time he's not a bad selection for a relatively unique role on the team.

Evers looks a better choice than Tinker of the other two, but I don't know enough to really justify or dismiss either. Eddie Collins and, especially, Honus Wagner set the bar awfully high for middle infielders in those days and I don't have a lot of faith in defensive statistics then to give any objective view of exactly how good either were with the glove. The baseball writers voted Evers at ~50% by the end and Tinker ~20%, for whatever that's worth.

/enjoys Hall of Fame arguments
//not sure who I'd kick out of the Hall

downstairs: Brother_Mouzone: yeah, if Barry Larkin gets in that would be bs. I dont know if this is heresay or not, but I never felt Paul Molitor was a HOFer either. To me, a Hall of famer is someone when they are playing, and you say, that guy is a hall of famer. that may sound obvious. but I grew up in the 70's and I knew Brett and Schmidt and Reggie were HOFers. not Don Sutton, and later Molitor and Rice and Dawson.

I have a similar litmus test. If a team came into your town, and you wanted to go see the team merely to see a specific visiting player, he's a hall of famer.

I couldn't give a crap about the Orioles, but as a kid I was very excited that I got to see Cal Ripken in live action.

Jim Rice? Not so much.

Not a bad rule, but there has to be some sort of longevity thing factored in for say, Dwight Gooden.

Farkomatic: Am I here too early for the Pete Rose debate? I'll be back.

Based on on-field results, obviously he deserves to be in. As a manager, he wasn't very good. He bet on baseball while employed as a baseball manager. For that, he should never be allowed to be employed in organized baseball. NEVER. That said, his betting had nothing to do with what he did as a player. His numbers are so overwhelming he should be in. Also, the National Baseball Hall of Fame is not governed by Major League Baseball or Bud Selig. So, Pete Rose should be allowed in the Hall of Fame. Also, Joe Jackson. And for the love of Ruth, Jackson had a lifetime ban. That ban expired 60 years ago today when died, December 5, 1951.