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(Herald Tribune (SW Florida))   Smoking crack, passing counterfeit money, smacking up juvies, spitting on arrestees, cracking heads open -- just another day in the life of corrupt untouchable cops in the great state of Florida   (heraldtribune.com) divider line 148
    More: Florida  
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8929 clicks; posted to Main » on 04 Dec 2011 at 8:22 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2011-12-04 02:12:22 PM

BronyMedic: redmid17: BronyMedic: redmid17: BronyMedic: Far be it from me to question the normal practices of firefighters, but I'm not sure how providing basic weeners falls into their wheelhouse. Do they have to become certified to provide advanced weeners?

HEH. Wow. The Fark Word Filter is translating First Responders into Weeners.

Although, there is a habit of giving hot dickings on the hose bed. It's how I met my wife. :)


Yeah I've seen that in action. If you're even in Chicago during the summer, check out the Firehouse across the street from Wrigley Field. That place HAS to be a fake firehouse. There is no way they'd be able to respond to anything during Cubs season

I've never been there. The only northern firehouse I've had the pleasure of visiting was the Emmitsburg Hose Company in Emmitsburg, Maryland when I was at National Fire Academy. The volunteer fire departments up there are just as much as social club as they are a rescue service - they have a bar setup in there, that if they want to throw a party while off shift they can do so.

There's a firehouse in Memphis at Union and McLean, been there for about 120 years. It's an old, double story, bunkhall over the bay type building, and they still have the pole in it. Union Avenue is the main downtown throughfare, and in the morning, it's bumper to bumper stop and go. It's always fun to see them go out when I'm coming off work downtown in the morning, because they will literally walk into the street, shut it down, and pull the apparatus out.

Ah I was referring to all the poon walking around during Cubs games, not just the traffic.

Derp.

It's a little harder to get away with as a paid firefighter than a volunteer. A certain level of shenanigans are expected for the vollies.

At one time, FDNY could drink on shift.


Oh I'm not insinuating they're bad at their jobs or anything. I just meant the sheer number of hot girls walking around would be extremely distracting. It's a small station too -- just two small trucks IIRC. Firefighters obviously shouldn't be balls deep if they get a call to put out a fire, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't get their share off-shift.
 
2011-12-04 02:13:47 PM

FMLYHM: Anomaly means that the one guy is a fluke. But when you say the ENTIRE system is flawed, then it is no longer an anomaly, it's the norm. Seriously how are you not getting this?


Sigh.... Why do I have to explain this? Just because the disciplinary process is bad doesn't mean the people governed by that process are bad. In fact, most people are self-disciplined and are never even involved in the process. Their behavior is controlled by their own set of values and ethics. So the state's external disciplinary process only affects a small number of cops in the first place. Many of that small number are not behaviors that would dictate revocation of certification, or the officer's agency has already taken appropriate measures.

So I would agree that the system is broken and ineffective as it relates to that small number of cops that it actually affects. That by no means suggests that every cop in Florida is getting away with bad behavior.
 
2011-12-04 02:14:31 PM
redmid17: Oh I'm not insinuating they're bad at their jobs or anything. I just meant the sheer number of hot girls walking around would be extremely distracting. It's a small station too -- just two small trucks IIRC. Firefighters obviously shouldn't be balls deep if they get a call to put out a fire, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't get their share off-shift.

Oh, trust me. They do. Often with eachother.

Nothing will kill a Medic or Firefighter's marriage faster than his female partner. Or male.
 
2011-12-04 02:17:04 PM

CruiserTwelve: FMLYHM: Anomaly means that the one guy is a fluke. But when you say the ENTIRE system is flawed, then it is no longer an anomaly, it's the norm. Seriously how are you not getting this?

Sigh.... Why do I have to explain this? Just because the disciplinary process is bad doesn't mean the people governed by that process are bad. In fact, most people are self-disciplined and are never even involved in the process. Their behavior is controlled by their own set of values and ethics. So the state's external disciplinary process only affects a small number of cops in the first place. Many of that small number are not behaviors that would dictate revocation of certification, or the officer's agency has already taken appropriate measures.

So I would agree that the system is broken and ineffective as it relates to that small number of cops that it actually affects. That by no means suggests that every cop in Florida is getting away with bad behavior.


Of course every cop in Florida gets away with bad behavior. No one is perfect.
 
2011-12-04 02:19:04 PM

fnordfocus: Can you honestly say you'd discipline an Officer for "forgetting" to turn in personal use quantities of drugs, head-butting a "subject," or hitting a juvenile just a few times for "disrespect?" Would you have anyone left if you did?


Not only would I, but I have. That behavior would subject an officer to termination and criminal charges in my agency, and officers have faced those consequences, on at least one occasion initiated by me.

his Department is too underfunded and disorganized to cover up properly

No, it's too underfunded and disorganized to properly investigate backgrounds before hiring and to have an effective discipline system to get rid of cops like him.
 
2011-12-04 02:24:27 PM
I hope this POS gets shot.
 
2011-12-04 02:26:06 PM

Also...

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2011-12-04 02:29:11 PM

CruiserTwelve: fnordfocus: Can you honestly say you'd discipline an Officer for "forgetting" to turn in personal use quantities of drugs, head-butting a "subject," or hitting a juvenile just a few times for "disrespect?" Would you have anyone left if you did?

Not only would I, but I have. That behavior would subject an officer to termination and criminal charges in my agency, and officers have faced those consequences, on at least one occasion initiated by me.

his Department is too underfunded and disorganized to cover up properly

No, it's too underfunded and disorganized to properly investigate backgrounds before hiring and to have an effective discipline system to get rid of cops like him.


And the staties are too incompetent or too corrupt to deal with the problem.
 
2011-12-04 02:35:15 PM
images.wikia.com

Cut him some slack; he's a bounty hunter.
 
2011-12-04 02:37:00 PM

CruiserTwelve: Not only would I, but I have. That behavior would subject an officer to termination and criminal charges in my agency, and officers have faced those consequences, on at least one occasion initiated by me.


I'm glad to hear that. Certainly not how things work in my state.
 
2011-12-04 02:53:53 PM

OBBN: [csb redacted]


I see. Unions bad, because of one local's rep from years ago.

CruiserTwelve already schooled you, but I have one more question: How long did you freeload stay with BellSouth after you quit the CWA?
 
2011-12-04 02:58:11 PM
After some of the police behavior I have seen in recent months due to Occupy, I fear the police completely. When given permission or they don't think they will be caught they are just sadistic bullies. If your a cop and you think this is unfair start doing something to fix the system so people who drag women by their hair, beat people just for jollies etc. get banned from being in law enforcement.
 
2011-12-04 03:54:50 PM

LibertyHiller: OBBN: [csb redacted]

I see. Unions bad, because of one local's rep from years ago.

CruiserTwelve already schooled you, but I have one more question: How long did you freeload stay with BellSouth after you quit the CWA?


No, unions bad because I see that type of behavior/attitude in almost every contact I have had with ANY union members. Apparently you skipped over the part of my post that said " I see that mentality Thin most of the union people I have had contact with, not just the CWA."

But, I am assuming from your posts that unions good no matter what, no such thing as a bad union. Once again, you have your views, I have mine. We will probably never agree.
 
2011-12-04 03:58:27 PM

forgotmydamnusername: OBBN: Okay Union supporters, please tell me again why unions are so great? This story pointed out exactly why unions are toxic. They defend him even though he clearly has no business being a police officer. Same in any other line of work that is union. Do a crappy job? No problem, the union has your back. It's really disgusting.

Not to mention the city management and the FDLE. Are they on drugs or something. Why hasn't this piece of trash been shown the door, how in the hell could he possibly have been made a sergeant? One can only hope that the embarrassment the city is going to get from this article will be enough for them to finally take action.

WTF happened to cops? When I was a kid I looked in awe when I saw one. Played cops and robbers and dreamed of being one when I grew up. Even the adults would look with respect when one came by. What happened to you guys? Now the only thing I see is fear and contempt.

Well, I presume that there came a day when you discovered there was no Santa, too. Not all cops are scumbags. It is one of those positions of authority that can be a magnet for such people, though, and incompetent or unethical managers can foster cultures of corruption anywhere. This may include your local PD. Believe it or not, the cops are probably statistically more professional, and less corrupt than they were 50 years ago in most places. It's just that with cell phones with cameras, the 'net, and generally better communications, it's become a bit harder for them to sweep things under the rug.


I am aware that not all cops are scumbags. But what I am seeing is that the police as a whole used to be on the top rung of the respect ladder in the eyes of most of the populace. However, I now see that most people seem to no longer respect a cop because he is a cop. They might respect him if they know him, but the respect that used to come with wearing the badge is no longer there. Enough bad apples have done the damage, the public for the most part doesn't trust the police.
 
2011-12-04 04:17:16 PM

CruiserTwelve: OBBN: They will defend somone who has absolutely no business doing their job. When was the last time you saw a Union trying to get rid of an unproductive, unprofessional union member?

It's not the union's job to get rid of bad employees. It's management's job. The union's job is to make sure the rights of the amployee are protected and that the agreed upon disciplinary process is followed.

Unions work directly not to see a company succeed, but to see that their members are paid as much as possible for as little work as possible.

In the contract negotiations I've been involved in, there were people on both sides of the table and the contract was signed by both sides.


No kidding, but you are missing my point. From what I have seen the union demands that their members get paid as much as they can get out of the company. The company of course agrees to the pay, and I am not knocking the members getting a large paycheck. However, when the company signs the contract they are expecting in return for agreeing to pay a high dollar amount that the union members will work hard for that paycheck. It has been my experience that the union encourages its members to work as little as possible, in essence to do the bare minimum.

My first day at BellSouth as a tech I was taken aside by a union rep and told "give them 4 good hours a day", and he meant it. I was raised that I give someone who has hired me as much as I can for the hours paid. Not long after my conversation with this rep, I would say about two months into my career there, I got pulled aside again and was "warned" to slow down on the job. Apparently I was working to efficiently and too hard and was told I was making other union members look bad. Jesus, do they not realize that they are getting paid good money to work, not to avoid work. It was pathetic. I wasn't all pro-company, I saw many shortcomings of the company. But I also knew that the company provided me with a great paycheck and that I owed them my best for that check. If the company went under, then my financial security was in jeopardy. And the way I saw it, the union was doing it's best to make sure that it took much more than it gave back.

That's a bad union rep. I hope you reported him to the board. That kind of behavior hurts badly at the bargaining table.


You're kidding right? He was the Union Vice-President. That attitude was the norm and not looked down upon by the Union as a whole. And your right it hurts, and it should.

In the story the this thread is about the union is showing exactly what they are all about. Was there a procedure that wasn't followed by "management"? Possibly, but does that really matter in this case.

Yes, it does matter. If the union allows this guy to be fired improperly, then management can fire anyone they want. When that happens, you start to see people fired for political, religious, racial and gender reasons.


Okay, I will give you that one, although in this case perhaps the union shouldn't have "tried" so hard to defend this man's job.

You have a member of your union that is obviously a danger to the general public, has no business wearing the uniform and certainly has no business carrying a gun and badge.

Then management should follow the proper process and fire him. If management screws up and violates policy, then it's management's fault the guy kept his job, not the union's. It's not that hard to fire someone. You just have to follow procedure.

Instead of kicking him out of your union because you won't tolerate a member acting like that you do your best to defend him. It speaks volumes as to the character of this police union. But brotherhood and all that. I guess it doesn't matter how terrible an employee is, if management is against him, then we are for him. It is a horrible policy and until the unions decide to clean up their members my view on them will not change.

The union's purpose is to negotiate a contract and then defend the contract against violations by management. They're not defending the cop or his behavior, they're defending the contractually agreed up process. As I said earlier, there are time it makes the union board gag to have to defend a piece of shiat employee, but you still have to defend the process for the guy that gets unfairly accused of something.


This is where you lose me. Don't give me that crap that the union is gagging at the thought of saving this bad cop's job. They can put pressure on people that are "bad apples". They can use their other members to keep this guy in line. Hell they can even go far as to say "you are a complete disgrace to not only the badge, but this union. We won't stand for this and h they didn't do that. Instead they turned a blind eye and let this bully with a badge and a gun keep terrorizing the very people he was sworn to protect. They kept collecting his dues every paycheck and stood by him during every single one of his screw ups. 5 firings, three arrest? And still proud to have him as part of your union? The union was aware of this guys record, did they go to management and discuss with them what to do about this dirt bag? No, they continued to defend the indefensible.

From what I can tell you are the Fark resident cop defender. I haven't been around for most of your threads througout the years, somehow missing them. But for you to defend the union and for you to by default make excuses why this cop is still on the force shows exactly why you have the reputation on Fark that you have. The union is as much as fault at this as the "management". They stood by why this guy abused his power and defended him when he got caught. You can make all the rationales that you want to as why they did, but the bottom line is he was a member of that union, they tolerated and defended him and that shows the kind of character that permeates unions as a whole. With any luck this asshat will be off the force in short order. Hopefully it won't be a Innocent civilian getting killed to get it done. But I am positive if he does eventually kill someone, his union will be there defending him for all their worth.
 
2011-12-04 04:20:24 PM

OBBN: forgotmydamnusername: OBBN: Okay Union supporters, please tell me again why unions are so great? This story pointed out exactly why unions are toxic. They defend him even though he clearly has no business being a police officer. Same in any other line of work that is union. Do a crappy job? No problem, the union has your back. It's really disgusting.

Not to mention the city management and the FDLE. Are they on drugs or something. Why hasn't this piece of trash been shown the door, how in the hell could he possibly have been made a sergeant? One can only hope that the embarrassment the city is going to get from this article will be enough for them to finally take action.

WTF happened to cops? When I was a kid I looked in awe when I saw one. Played cops and robbers and dreamed of being one when I grew up. Even the adults would look with respect when one came by. What happened to you guys? Now the only thing I see is fear and contempt.

Well, I presume that there came a day when you discovered there was no Santa, too. Not all cops are scumbags. It is one of those positions of authority that can be a magnet for such people, though, and incompetent or unethical managers can foster cultures of corruption anywhere. This may include your local PD. Believe it or not, the cops are probably statistically more professional, and less corrupt than they were 50 years ago in most places. It's just that with cell phones with cameras, the 'net, and generally better communications, it's become a bit harder for them to sweep things under the rug.

I am aware that not all cops are scumbags. But what I am seeing is that the police as a whole used to be on the top rung of the respect ladder in the eyes of most of the populace. However, I now see that most people seem to no longer respect a cop because he is a cop. They might respect him if they know him, but the respect that used to come with wearing the badge is no longer there. Enough bad apples have done the damage, the public for the most part doesn't trust the police.


They never should have. That's my point. LAPD was an ugly organization going back years and years, but the Rodney King thing was the first time most people became aware of it. More and more departments are just having their Rodney King moments thanks to improving technology.
 
2011-12-04 04:23:57 PM

OBBN: LibertyHiller: OBBN: [csb redacted]

I see. Unions bad, because of one local's rep from years ago.

CruiserTwelve already schooled you, but I have one more question: How long did you freeload stay with BellSouth after you quit the CWA?

No, unions bad because I see that type of behavior/attitude in almost every contact I have had with ANY union members. Apparently you skipped over the part of my post that said " I see that mentality Thin most of the union people I have had contact with, not just the CWA."

But, I am assuming from your posts that unions good no matter what, no such thing as a bad union. Once again, you have your views, I have mine. We will probably never agree.


I use to belong to CWA, they kicked ass. Higher wages great benefits. Regular raises. No Pink Monday's where you show up and half the crew is fired. If you want to work for AT&T with out the benefit of a union you sir are an idiot. shiatty people were fired just like at every other job, except there had to be a legit reason documented over time.
 
2011-12-04 04:57:03 PM

OBBN: But for you to defend the union and for you to by default make excuses why this cop is still on the force shows exactly why you have the reputation on Fark that you have.


No, I have that reputation with some people because they choose to read my posts selectively and to interpret them through their own filters as you have done.
 
2011-12-04 05:12:49 PM

CruiserTwelve: OBBN: But for you to defend the union and for you to by default make excuses why this cop is still on the force shows exactly why you have the reputation on Fark that you have.

No, I have that reputation with some people because they choose to read my posts selectively and to interpret them through their own filters as you have done.


No it is because you had a history of supporting the police first, even against over whelming evidence against them. I don't think anyone thinks you are a shiatty police officer, or person for that mater. it is just a lot of people are upset by the authority structure we have in the US. How can you not be? It is pretty farked up unless you are in a position of authority., Cops are the street level enforcement, driving the US to have the largest prison population in the world. They get a lot of shiat for that.
 
2011-12-04 05:18:09 PM
i.imgur.com

Not impressed.
 
2011-12-04 05:26:35 PM
Every profession has its corrupt individuals who take advantage of what they do and who they work for. It doesn't matter if you're a McDonald's cashier, a police officer, or even the President, there are always bad eggs who make the profession look bad. People prefer to paint the entire profession as corrupt because of the actions of one person, than stop and think about how rampant corruption is in society in general.

It's easy to think all police are dirtbags because people project their own behaviors onto us. Do you hve any idea how many times people ask me about being a cop and the first thing they say is, "man, if I was a cop I'd be blowing all the red lights and speedin everywhere." People want to be cops to take advantage of the position, which is why the vast majority of us who actually do the job don't take advantage of it.

99 out of 100 cops do the job because we actually want to help people. We go out every night to solve your petty family disputes, take the drunk driver off the street do he doesn't kill someone, arrest the guy who robbed your elderly father, and get in fights and shootouts to protect the lives of people who hate us only because we do what they need us to do.

The man in the article shouldn't be a cop, but his actions don't color my actions. Tonight I'm going to out in my uniform, in the moving target that is my crown vic, and go do my job because people need me to do it just like I do every night. We can't keep everyone safe and be everywhere at once, but most of us try, which is more than can be said for those who hate us because we do what they can't and won't do.
 
2011-12-04 05:26:56 PM

Bohemian: After some of the police behavior I have seen in recent months due to Occupy, I fear the police completely.


Then their job is done!
 
2011-12-04 05:40:49 PM
Of course, few want to mention it, but SGt Bosque keeps getting away with crap because he is a Hispanic in a very Hispanic controlled county (Miami-Dade). If he was John Smith, Anglo and Gringo...he would have been drummed out of law enforcement years ago

This guy is not indicative of the many LEOs in the state of Florida...who are honest and are trying to do their jobs.
 
2011-12-04 06:09:38 PM

Rozotorical: it is just a lot of people are upset by the authority structure we have in the US. How can you not be? It is pretty farked up unless you are in a position of authority., Cops are the street level enforcement, driving the US to have the largest prison population in the world. They get a lot of shiat for that.


And this is the filter through which I am judged.
 
2011-12-04 06:11:47 PM

Dog Man: The man in the article shouldn't be a cop, but his actions don't color my actions. Tonight I'm going to out in my uniform, in the moving target that is my crown vic, and go do my job because people need me to do it just like I do every night. We can't keep everyone safe and be everywhere at once, but most of us try, which is more than can be said for those who hate us because we do what they can't and won't do.


Be safe out there.
 
2011-12-04 06:13:47 PM

CruiserTwelve: Rozotorical: it is just a lot of people are upset by the authority structure we have in the US. How can you not be? It is pretty farked up unless you are in a position of authority., Cops are the street level enforcement, driving the US to have the largest prison population in the world. They get a lot of shiat for that.

And this is the filter through which I am judged.


But you should have known that going into the job.
 
2011-12-04 06:21:44 PM

Rozotorical: CruiserTwelve: Rozotorical: it is just a lot of people are upset by the authority structure we have in the US. How can you not be? It is pretty farked up unless you are in a position of authority., Cops are the street level enforcement, driving the US to have the largest prison population in the world. They get a lot of shiat for that.

And this is the filter through which I am judged.

But you should have known that going into the job.


Sorry that was harsh. What I mean surely when you were a younger man looking to join the force you heard criticism of the police from a peer or family member? Knowing that you would be judged harshly by the people who you are now paid to oppose. The causal criminal class that most people seem to fall into.
 
2011-12-04 06:23:46 PM

CruiserTwelve:
Be safe out there.


You too, sir.

I'm always safe, it's the other guy I have to watch out for.
 
2011-12-04 06:35:05 PM

OBBN: I see that type of behavior/attitude in almost every contact I have had with ANY union members.


I see that type of behavior/attitude in an awful lot of non-union workers, but go ahead and demonize union members if it makes you feel better.

I am assuming from your posts that unions good no matter what, no such thing as a bad union.

Actually, no. But thanks for projecting.

I've seen the bad sides as well as the good ones; but all things considered, they accomplish more good than not; the most important thing they do is level the playing field between employer and employee. I'd accept the outlawing of unions as long as industry associations and chambers of commerce get the same treatment.

Meanwhile, you ignored my question... again, how long did you stay with BellSouth after quitting the CWA because the VP of the local "warned" you?
 
2011-12-04 09:00:46 PM

LibertyHiller: OBBN: I see that type of behavior/attitude in almost every contact I have had with ANY union members.

I see that type of behavior/attitude in an awful lot of non-union workers, but go ahead and demonize union members if it makes you feel better.

I am assuming from your posts that unions good no matter what, no such thing as a bad union.

Actually, no. But thanks for projecting.

I've seen the bad sides as well as the good ones; but all things considered, they accomplish more good than not; the most important thing they do is level the playing field between employer and employee. I'd accept the outlawing of unions as long as industry associations and chambers of commerce get the same treatment.

Meanwhile, you ignored my question... again, how long did you stay with BellSouth after quitting the CWA because the VP of the local "warned" you?


I didn't ignore your question, I didn't notice it until you pointed it out. My apologies, I had other things going on as I was responding. I worked for Bell for another 4 years after that incident. I would still be there except for an on the job accident. I broke my back and unfortunately can no longer work. However had I still been there chances are good that I would have been management by this time. I had passed the necessary qualifications to be moved into management. Sadly, my injury came not long after that and I never got the chance. Prior to my injury I was at Bell for close to 10 years. I come from a long line of Southern Bell/BellSouth employees. Some union, some management. The company has been good to us and my first loyalty was to the company. They provided the jobs and the pay.

And for the record I was not anit-union prior to belonging to one. As stated above I got the distinct impression that the union was not what was best for the growth and survival of the company. The one thing that bothered me greatly about a union shop which I failed to mention above was the seniority based preference. Preference in layoffs, pay and such was always based on seniority, not ability and worth to the company. It seemed to me that the more years a tech had in the less he did, almost as if it was some sort of right of passage. When it came time to downsize the man with 4 years and a production history twice that of someone with 18 years was laid off. Determination was not based on performance only on the number of years. I can't imagine trying to run a company and not being able to retain your most productive employees. That isn't to say that the company shouldn't have loyalty towards long time employees, but the rate of production must be consistent regardless of the number of years you have in a job or title.

Now of course we all have difference of opinions. However the biggest difference I see is that those of us who choose not to belong to the union didn't pressure others to quit. Unlike the union employees who felt it necessary to try and force you into the union. If you are in a right to work State, it is your choice to belong or not. The only thing I expect is that whatever choice and employee makes is respected and he/she is left alone. Atheist don't want religious people bothering them about religion and people who don't want to be in a union don't need someone trying to convince or pressure them to join.
 
2011-12-04 09:13:15 PM

Rozotorical: OBBN: LibertyHiller: OBBN: [csb redacted]

I see. Unions bad, because of one local's rep from years ago.

CruiserTwelve already schooled you, but I have one more question: How long did you freeload stay with BellSouth after you quit the CWA?

No, unions bad because I see that type of behavior/attitude in almost every contact I have had with ANY union members. Apparently you skipped over the part of my post that said " I see that mentality Thin most of the union people I have had contact with, not just the CWA."

But, I am assuming from your posts that unions good no matter what, no such thing as a bad union. Once again, you have your views, I have mine. We will probably never agree.

I use to belong to CWA, they kicked ass. Higher wages great benefits. Regular raises. No Pink Monday's where you show up and half the crew is fired. If you want to work for AT&T with out the benefit of a union you sir are an idiot. shiatty people were fired just like at every other job, except there had to be a legit reason documented over time.


Well I am glad to hear your experience with the union was better than mine. I have no problem with you belonging to the union if that is what you want to do. I worked just fine without the union. I gave the company 8 hours work for 8 hours pay every single day. I was instilled from a very young age with a high work ethic. I was not just a good employee at Bell, I was a great one. It wasn't unusual for me to be at the top of the ratings in my district every month. I was one of the techs the managers could count on when they had a tough job that had to be done. That isn't to say that I didn't work with some fine techs that were union members. But is the idiot insult really necessary? I have specific reasons for not believing in what the union stood for and what they practiced. If anything I followed what my beliefs were, regardless of what others wanted or thought. I worked in a right to work State and had the right to choose to participate in the union or not. I choose not to. And even though the union wasn't the thing for me, it apparently was for you. I have no problem with that. I was confident enough in my ability that I didn't have to rely on a union to protect me at work. As mentioned above, I was unfortunately hurt at work and can no longer work. I miss Bell/AT&T and would give anything to be back there as some of the best times of my life were working there. As far as being liked and respected at Bell even though it was no secret that I wasn't in the union, I still get calls and emails on a frequent basis from techs that I worked with checking up and seeing how I am doing. Most didn't have a problem if someone was in the union or not as long as they pulled their weight. The only ones who seemed to have a problem were the rabid union "first" people, to them the union wasn't just an organization it was almost a religion.

Anyway, it is getting late and I really am getting tired. As I said above I am glad to hear that your experience with the union was positive. I respect your choice to support the CWA, and I would hope that you would respect my choice not to.
 
2011-12-04 09:41:39 PM

OBBN: LibertyHiller: Again, how long did you stay with BellSouth after quitting the CWA because the VP of the local "warned" you?

I worked for Bell for another 4 years after that incident.


Freeloaded for four years; got it.

I broke my back and unfortunately can no longer work.

Okay, you're on disability; who paid (is paying) for that? You say it was "on the job"; were working conditions unsafe, or were you simply careless?

I had passed the necessary qualifications to be moved into management. Sadly, my injury came not long after that and I never got the chance. Prior to my injury I was at Bell for close to 10 years.

So, that was six years in the union and four more out of it, until you were injured? Got it.

The one thing that bothered me greatly about a union shop which I failed to mention above was the seniority based preference. Preference in layoffs, pay and such was always based on seniority, not ability and worth to the company. It seemed to me that the more years a tech had in the less he did, almost as if it was some sort of right of passage. When it came time to downsize the man with 4 years and a production history twice that of someone with 18 years was laid off.

I'd be interested to hear how one would measure ability and worth in any objective fashion. Seniority isn't perfect, but at least it's a difficult system for management to game.
 
2011-12-04 10:22:47 PM

LibertyHiller: OBBN: LibertyHiller: Again, how long did you stay with BellSouth after quitting the CWA because the VP of the local "warned" you?

I worked for Bell for another 4 years after that incident.

Freeloaded for four years; got it.

I broke my back and unfortunately can no longer work.

Okay, you're on disability; who paid (is paying) for that? You say it was "on the job"; were working conditions unsafe, or were you simply careless?

I had passed the necessary qualifications to be moved into management. Sadly, my injury came not long after that and I never got the chance. Prior to my injury I was at Bell for close to 10 years.

So, that was six years in the union and four more out of it, until you were injured? Got it.

The one thing that bothered me greatly about a union shop which I failed to mention above was the seniority based preference. Preference in layoffs, pay and such was always based on seniority, not ability and worth to the company. It seemed to me that the more years a tech had in the less he did, almost as if it was some sort of right of passage. When it came time to downsize the man with 4 years and a production history twice that of someone with 18 years was laid off.

I'd be interested to hear how one would measure ability and worth in any objective fashion. Seniority isn't perfect, but at least it's a difficult system for management to game.


It's not difficult to game. Do well enough to not get fired for `0 years, and then you're untouchable. That's inside the cloak union-discipline. Seniority on its own is a horrible way to measure competency.
 
2011-12-04 11:26:49 PM
redmid17:LibertyHiller: I'd be interested to hear how one would measure ability and worth in any objective fashion. Seniority isn't perfect, but at least it's a difficult system for management to game.

It's not difficult to game. Do well enough to not get fired for `0 years, and then you're untouchable. That's inside the cloak union-discipline. Seniority on its own is a horrible way to measure competency.


I never said that seniority was a way to measure competency; my point was simply that when one has to lay off workers, seniority is an objective yardstick, whereas ability and worth are an entirely different story.

What you call "gaming the system" I see as the equivalent of an executive's golden parachute; what you call "untouchable" is more like "only with cause."
 
2011-12-04 11:29:54 PM

LibertyHiller: redmid17:LibertyHiller: I'd be interested to hear how one would measure ability and worth in any objective fashion. Seniority isn't perfect, but at least it's a difficult system for management to game.

It's not difficult to game. Do well enough to not get fired for `0 years, and then you're untouchable. That's inside the cloak union-discipline. Seniority on its own is a horrible way to measure competency.

I never said that seniority was a way to measure competency; my point was simply that when one has to lay off workers, seniority is an objective yardstick, whereas ability and worth are an entirely different story.

What you call "gaming the system" I see as the equivalent of an executive's golden parachute; what you call "untouchable" is more like "only with cause."


If you think that seniority in and of itself is an adequate way to measure competency, I am surprised you can a) string thoughts well enough to complete a sentence and b) register for Fark.
 
2011-12-04 11:36:43 PM

DeathByGeekSquad: Deathfrogg: Your hero first responders at work, just doing their jobs.

I think people are starting to realize what the Police Officers job actually is. It certainly has less to do with protecting and serving, and more to do with making sure people remain too terrified to challenge authority, even when that authority is acting in a criminally dangerous manner. We are not being protected, we are being occupied.

Strap on your jackboots and start practicing that goosestep.

Society in general has gotten out of hand with the glorification of folks in positions of authority. That goes for military, police, and cabinet members. There are rotten eggs in all of them.

Yes, even the military, where gangbangers have started going to escape retaliation from attacks or heat, only to return to the streets after their tour and bring back all of the wonderful tactical training provided by Uncle Sam.

 
2011-12-05 12:13:18 AM

redmid17: LibertyHiller: redmid17:LibertyHiller: I'd be interested to hear how one would measure ability and worth in any objective fashion. Seniority isn't perfect, but at least it's a difficult system for management to game.

It's not difficult to game. Do well enough to not get fired for `0 years, and then you're untouchable. That's inside the cloak union-discipline. Seniority on its own is a horrible way to measure competency.

I never said that seniority was a way to measure competency; my point was simply that when one has to lay off workers, seniority is an objective yardstick, whereas ability and worth are an entirely different story.

What you call "gaming the system" I see as the equivalent of an executive's golden parachute; what you call "untouchable" is more like "only with cause."

If you think that seniority in and of itself is an adequate way to measure competency, I am surprised you can a) string thoughts well enough to complete a sentence and b) register for Fark.


Let me recap, since your reading comprehension is lacking:

OBBN brought seniority into the discussion, it being one of his beefs with the sheer notion of a union. I pointed out that it was at least an objective measurement, and that it's much more difficult to monkey with than arbitrary concepts of "ability" and "worth." Then you jumped in to muddying the water by arguing (with whom?) that "seniority on its own is a horrible way to measure competency."

Since I never said anything about seniority being the only way to measure competency in the first place, I'm not sure what you're accomplishing, besides demonstrating your goalpost relocation skills.

But since you brought it up, I'll point out that with all other things being equal, seniority certainly implies competency.
 
2011-12-05 12:35:55 AM

LibertyHiller: redmid17: LibertyHiller: redmid17:LibertyHiller: I'd be interested to hear how one would measure ability and worth in any objective fashion. Seniority isn't perfect, but at least it's a difficult system for management to game.

It's not difficult to game. Do well enough to not get fired for `0 years, and then you're untouchable. That's inside the cloak union-discipline. Seniority on its own is a horrible way to measure competency.

I never said that seniority was a way to measure competency; my point was simply that when one has to lay off workers, seniority is an objective yardstick, whereas ability and worth are an entirely different story.

What you call "gaming the system" I see as the equivalent of an executive's golden parachute; what you call "untouchable" is more like "only with cause."

If you think that seniority in and of itself is an adequate way to measure competency, I am surprised you can a) string thoughts well enough to complete a sentence and b) register for Fark.

Let me recap, since your reading comprehension is lacking:

OBBN brought seniority into the discussion, it being one of his beefs with the sheer notion of a union. I pointed out that it was at least an objective measurement, and that it's much more difficult to monkey with than arbitrary concepts of "ability" and "worth." Then you jumped in to muddying the water by arguing (with whom?) that "seniority on its own is a horrible way to measure competency."

Since I never said anything about seniority being the only way to measure competency in the first place, I'm not sure what you're accomplishing, besides demonstrating your goalpost relocation skills.

But since you brought it up, I'll point out that with all other things being equal, seniority certainly implies competency.


Yeah you are a retard. Seniority equals nothing. At best it means you are at a level for a certain amount of time, not that you are competent. What's it like to have a free lunch?
 
2011-12-05 12:44:12 AM

redmid17: LibertyHiller: But since you brought it up, I'll point out that with all other things being equal, seniority certainly implies competency.

Yeah you are a retard. Seniority equals nothing. At best it means you are at a level for a certain amount of time, not that you are competent. What's it like to have a free lunch?


You don't understand the difference between "implies" and "equals," but I'm the retard? Got it. You'll look lovely in yellow 4.
 
2011-12-05 05:16:53 AM
Damn. Based on the article, C12's posts, and hillary's post, it really does seem like the corruption festers from the heart in Florida and the whole state establishment needs to be put down and reinstated from the outside. I wonder how long such a thing would last before the Florida effect set in, however...
 
2011-12-05 10:38:46 AM

LibertyHiller: OBBN: LibertyHiller: Again, how long did you stay with BellSouth after quitting the CWA because the VP of the local "warned" you?
I worked for Bell for another 4 years after that incident.

Freeloaded for four years; got it.


Interesting choice of words you have chosen. Exactly who did I feeload off of? The union didn't cut my paychecks. The company did, and if by consistently appearing in the top 5 techs in my area was freeloading I don't think that the company saw it that way. I gave them exactly what they paid me to do and perhaps more. Unlike a lot of your union brothers.

I broke my back and unfortunately can no longer work.

Okay, you're on disability; who paid (is paying) for that? You say it was "on the job"; were working conditions unsafe, or were you simply careless?

Yes, I am on disability. And I know who didn't pay for it, the union. It was paid for by myself and BellSouth. See, let me see if I can explain this to you, there are these things called taxes. When you pay your taxes they have a deduction for something called Social Security. Social Security Disability is something like an insurance policy. You pay into it and if you are unlucky enough to get injured badly enough to not be able to work, you receive a benefit paid because you PAID into the Social Security System. The union has zero to do with that, nothing. Guess what? People who get injured and don't belong to a union are still eligable to Disability providing they have paid into the system. What? Without a union? Yep, that's right, the union had nothing to do with it, so what is your point?

As far as careless, well no. I cut out while gaffing a pole. Unfortunately I was up about 18' or so and part of the pole broke away. There was no visible damage, just a soft spot in the pole. But I am sure with your exceptional climbing skills you have never cut on a climb,. And if you say no, you are a liar. The sad part is you actually seem somewhat smug knowing that I got hurt on the job. Hate to tell you something, but many of my union friends were very upset at discovering I had been hurt. You would have been amazed at how many came to see me in the hospital and still keep in touch today. I suppose they are bad, bad union members right? Of course, unlike you I am sure, they could always count on me in the field.

I had passed the necessary qualifications to be moved into management. Sadly, my injury came not long after that and I never got the chance. Prior to my injury I was at Bell for close to 10 years.

So, that was six years in the union and four more out of it, until you were injured? Got it.

What is there to get? What point are you trying to make here? Right to work State, or have you forgotten that?

The one thing that bothered me greatly about a union shop which I failed to mention above was the seniority based preference. Preference in layoffs, pay and such was always based on seniority, not ability and worth to the company. It seemed to me that the more years a tech had in the less he did, almost as if it was some sort of right of passage. When it came time to downsize the man with 4 years and a production history twice that of someone with 18 years was laid off.

I'd be interested to hear how one would measure ability and worth in any objective fashion. Seniority isn't perfect, but at least it's a difficult system for management to game.


You have got to be kidding right? Wow, you have certainly got a entitled union mentality. I am sure it will serve you well. Hopefully you will never own your own business, because I know for fact your attitude would change. Are you telling me that production and quality are not indicators of work performance? Are you telling me that the only thing that should count are the number of years that one has worked? See, this is what has lead to the downfall of so many companies with a union. Once and employee gets enough years to be "safe" in his job, production falls because of an entitlement attitude. Why work so hard any longer? You won't get fired because you have time in title and the union will protect you. I am not saying that there shouldn't be perks for someone who has a lot of time with a company. But the main thing that should determine an employee's worth is his worth to the company. And that worth can only be measured in output, performance and quality. If I own a company I can assure you that the tech with 1 year service completing 6 jobs a day is more valuable to my company than one with 20 years that does 3. A company exist to make money for either the shareholders or the owners, not to provide you with a high paying job. If the company wants quality work and professional work they will be willing to pay good money for it, but the company doesn't exist to provide you with a job and paycheck. No matter how many times your union tells you that is what it is there for.

Once again, you and I are not going to ever agree on this subject. But, in typical union fashion you take someone that disagrees with you and go ballistic. It starts with the name calling: freeloader, and then goes on a predictable path from there. As far as getting hurt, don't think it can't happen to you as well. I hope that it doesn't and chances are it won't, but if it does you can sure as hell know that you will be thankful for Social Security and the company that pays 1/2 of your SS taxes. If you ever do get hurt, keep an eye out and see what the union does for you. I can already give you the answers, nothing. Nothing at all, for once you can no longer pay your monthly ransom to them you become worthless to them.

Off to take care of the day, I will part by saying there are no hard feelings. I will respect your views although I fail to understand them, try to give me the same courtesy.
 
2011-12-05 10:51:16 AM

LibertyHiller: redmid17:LibertyHiller: I'd be interested to hear how one would measure ability and worth in any objective fashion. Seniority isn't perfect, but at least it's a difficult system for management to game.

It's not difficult to game. Do well enough to not get fired for `0 years, and then you're untouchable. That's inside the cloak union-discipline. Seniority on its own is a horrible way to measure competency.

I never said that seniority was a way to measure competency; my point was simply that when one has to lay off workers, seniority is an objective yardstick, whereas ability and worth are an entirely different story.

What you call "gaming the system" I see as the equivalent of an executive's golden parachute; what you call "untouchable" is more like "only with cause."


My God, you have really drunk the union Kool-Aid haven't you? You actually have no clue about what is good for a company and not good for it do you? You said above that seniority is a way to measure competency, competency in what? Just because you have time in title doesn't make you competent at anything. I will agree that if you have two employees and it is time to layoff, if both have an equal or close to equal "worth" in production and quality then the one with the seniority should stay. But, you are unwilling to admit that if you have a true slacker with seniority that they in no way should be chosen over the less senior man who is willing to give his all.

As far as a golden parachute, yeah it is disgusting how executives are able to bail on a company and do so with enough money to not have to worry again. But, can you tell me that if you were in that position that you wouldn't do the same? Another typical union trait, jealousy to those that have more than you. If you wanted to make 7 figures a year then you should have gone to college and majored in business, got out and busted your ass until you were promoted to executive level. The reason they make more than you is that they have a skill that few possess. Last time I looked, there were literally thousands upon thousands of people that were qualified to do any union job. That doesn't mean that those jobs aren't important, but it means the law of supply and demand are at work.
 
2011-12-05 12:07:42 PM

OBBN: LibertyHiller: OBBN: LibertyHiller: Again, how long did you stay with BellSouth after quitting the CWA because the VP of the local "warned" you?

OBBN: I worked for Bell for another 4 years after that incident.

LH: Freeloaded for four years; got it.

OBBN: Interesting choice of words you have chosen. Exactly who did I feeload off of? The union didn't cut my paychecks. The company did, and if by consistently appearing in the top 5 techs in my area was freeloading I don't think that the company saw it that way. I gave them exactly what they paid me to do and perhaps more. Unlike a lot of your union brothers.


First of all, I am not, nor have I ever been, a member of any union.

But you were taking advantage of pay scales and benefit packages negotiated by CWA, without paying dues. That's what I mean by "freeloading."

OBBN: I broke my back and unfortunately can no longer work.

LH: Okay, you're on disability; who paid (is paying) for that? You say it was "on the job"; were working conditions unsafe, or were you simply careless?

OBBN: Yes, I am on disability. And I know who didn't pay for it, the union. It was paid for by myself and BellSouth. [condescending discussion of Social Security redacted] The union has zero to do with that, nothing. Guess what? People who get injured and don't belong to a union are still eligable to Disability providing they have paid into the system. What? Without a union? Yep, that's right, the union had nothing to do with it, so what is your point?


Nothing to do with it, okay. Social Security and disability coverage just fell from heaven, and the labor movement had nothing to do with it. Ma Bell just gave you the pay scale and the benefits, and the CWA had nothing to do with that, either.

OBBN: As far as careless, well no. I cut out while gaffing a pole. Unfortunately I was up about 18' or so and part of the pole broke away. There was no visible damage, just a soft spot in the pole. But I am sure with your exceptional climbing skills you have never cut on a climb,. And if you say no, you are a liar. The sad part is you actually seem somewhat smug knowing that I got hurt on the job. Hate to tell you something, but many of my union friends were very upset at discovering I had been hurt. You would have been amazed at how many came to see me in the hospital and still keep in touch today. I suppose they are bad, bad union members right? Of course, unlike you I am sure, they could always count on me in the field.

Actually, I'm just trying to understand you, like I would a piece of software. I am sorry you were hurt; since there are many ways to break one's back, I threw out two possibilities; it sounds like yours was simply bad luck. Some people would say that you went into the job knowing the risks and should have planned better for falling from that pole, but if it were up to me, I'd want you to have more compensation. So there.

LH: So, that was six years in the union and four more out of it, until you were injured? Got it.

OBBN: What is there to get? What point are you trying to make here? Right to work State, or have you forgotten that?


Just doing some math, relax. Now let's see, this is where you lose your temper:

Are you telling me that production and quality are not indicators of work performance? Of course not.

Are you telling me that the only thing that should count are the number of years that one has worked? Of course not.

If I own a company I can assure you that the tech with 1 year service completing 6 jobs a day is more valuable to my company than one with 20 years that does 3.

You're assuming that the job assignments are equal. if I understand you, you're going to assign the rookie tech to jobs of equal complexity to those you would your veteran tech. You would have made a hell of a manager, and Hell for your bosses.

If you ever do get hurt, keep an eye out and see what the union does for you. I can already give you the answers, nothing. Nothing at all, for once you can no longer pay your monthly ransom to them you become worthless to them.

Ah, this is where the self-loathing kicks in. Dude, you had no right to expect any help from the CWA after you stopped paying dues in a fit of pique, four years before your accident.

But the main thing that should determine an employee's worth is his worth to the company. And that worth can only be measured in output, performance and quality.

There are some intangibles, but I'll file those under "quality." You seem convinced that senior employees are goldbricks, by mere virtue of being senior. You seem absolutely incapable of distinguishing between equivalence and implication, but I'll try once more: the more time someone spends at a job, the better they become at it, wouldn't you agree? It's not a guarantee, but experience usually leads to quality in various aspects. If it doesn't, I'd want to question management as well as the worker.

Meanwhile, you're trying to use subjective metrics such as quality and productivity for what should be an objective task. Seniority brings the risk of goldbricking, but in my 25 years in the workforce as an employee and a manager, it's an easy yardstick to use in an objective way. (Here's a secret: bosses hate rating employees in any kind of effective and objective way. That's why annual reviews are such a headache for all parties.)

As for golden parachutes, my complaint isn't about someone else having money, it's about how the money is made. Taking a huge cash payoff for inflating the stock while hurting the long-term future of a company simply rubs me the wrong way.

A question for you: what exactly do you know about running a company? You never made it to management, you're on disability and you can't work, remember?

Finally, as for your accusations of "name calling," if the shoe fits...
 
2011-12-05 02:36:38 PM

LibertyHiller: OBBN: LibertyHiller: OBBN: LibertyHiller: Again, how long did you stay with BellSouth after quitting the CWA because the VP of the local "warned" you?

OBBN: I worked for Bell for another 4 years after that incident.

LH: Freeloaded for four years; got it.

OBBN: Interesting choice of words you have chosen. Exactly who did I feeload off of? The union didn't cut my paychecks. The company did, and if by consistently appearing in the top 5 techs in my area was freeloading I don't think that the company saw it that way. I gave them exactly what they paid me to do and perhaps more. Unlike a lot of your union brothers.

First of all, I am not, nor have I ever been, a member of any union.

But you were taking advantage of pay scales and benefit packages negotiated by CWA, without paying dues. That's what I mean by "freeloading."

OBBN: I broke my back and unfortunately can no longer work.

LH: Okay, you're on disability; who paid (is paying) for that? You say it was "on the job"; were working conditions unsafe, or were you simply careless?

OBBN: Yes, I am on disability. And I know who didn't pay for it, the union. It was paid for by myself and BellSouth. [condescending discussion of Social Security redacted] The union has zero to do with that, nothing. Guess what? People who get injured and don't belong to a union are still eligable to Disability providing they have paid into the system. What? Without a union? Yep, that's right, the union had nothing to do with it, so what is your point?

Nothing to do with it, okay. Social Security and disability coverage just fell from heaven, and the labor movement had nothing to do with it. Ma Bell just gave you the pay scale and the benefits, and the CWA had nothing to do with that, either.

OBBN: As far as careless, well no. I cut out while gaffing a pole. Unfortunately I was up about 18' or so and part of the pole broke away. There was no visible damage, just a soft spot in the pole. But I am sure with your exceptional climbing skills you have never cut on a climb,. And if you say no, you are a liar. The sad part is you actually seem somewhat smug knowing that I got hurt on the job. Hate to tell you something, but many of my union friends were very upset at discovering I had been hurt. You would have been amazed at how many came to see me in the hospital and still keep in touch today. I suppose they are bad, bad union members right? Of course, unlike you I am sure, they could always count on me in the field.

Actually, I'm just trying to understand you, like I would a piece of software. I am sorry you were hurt; since there are many ways to break one's back, I threw out two possibilities; it sounds like yours was simply bad luck. Some people would say that you went into the job knowing the risks and should have planned better for falling from that pole, but if it were up to me, I'd want you to have more compensation. So there.

LH: So, that was six years in the union and four more out of it, until you were injured? Got it.

OBBN: What is there to get? What point are you trying to make here? Right to work State, or have you forgotten that?

Just doing some math, relax. Now let's see, this is where you lose your temper:

Are you telling me that production and quality are not indicators of work performance? Of course not.

Are you telling me that the only thing that should count are the number of years that one has worked? Of course not.

If I own a company I can assure you that the tech with 1 year service completing 6 jobs a day is more valuable to my company than one with 20 years that does 3.

You're assuming that the job assignments are equal. if I understand you, you're going to assign the rookie tech to jobs of equal complexity to those you would your veteran tech. You would have made a hell of a manager, and Hell for your bosses.

If you ever do get hurt, keep an eye out and see what the union does for you. I can already give you the answers, nothing. Nothing at all, for once you can no longer pay your monthly ransom to them you become worthless to them.

Ah, this is where the self ...


Okay, this thread is
g
Okay, this thread is getting stale and moving into obscurity, but I will answer again for giggles. As far as never made it to management I only worked for BellSouth for 10 years. I have been working since I was 14. There have been other jobs and other positions. As far as owning my own business, yes I have done that too. And currently my wife owns her own and even though I am not able to participate on a daily basis I certainly contribute to decisions being made in that business. And FWIW we are doing quite well. Being disabled doesn't mean you lie in a bed all day and do nothing. In fact under current disability law you are able to do some work, the income and hours are greatly restricted, but the option is there.

The only other point that I would like to make is your comment about the union and my injury.

Ah, this is where the self-loathing kicks in. Dude, you had no right to expect any help from the CWA after you stopped paying dues in a fit of pique, four years before your accident.

There is not self loathing in my statement. Where exactly did I say I thought the union owed me anything. It was pointing out that if you got hurt like I did on the job and were a union member you should be aware that the union will do nothing for you. There was not "fit of pique" in my leaving the union. It was a well thought out decision on my part. Based 100% in my belief that the union was a cancer on the company. Perhaps if more people thought about what is right and wrong we wouldn't have so many problems.

And the last subject I will touch is your falling back on seniority again. What gave you the impression that if an employee had only 1 year of service he would be doing a job he was not qualified for? Never did I say that I would choose an unqualified person over a qualified one. What I said is I don't give a rat's ass about seniority when it comes to who is a better employee. There are plenty of good employees with all kinds of service. But what I did say is that seniority alone would not be the determining factor in keeping one employee over another.

If you have 25 years of service in whatever you do I would hope that you are management by now. Why don't you take a trip to the owner of your company's office and let him know that if there ever comes a time when your company must layoff, that you will pick the senior people to stay over the productive people. (If your most productive people are your senior people, it's a moot point then). Something tells me that as an owner wanting to extract the most value out of a company he/she would be most concerned with what will leave the company in a stronger state after the layoffs.

Have a good day. As I said before, there isn't a chance that we are going to agree on this subject. I base my opinons on personal experience and will be hard pressed to change that opinion.
 
2011-12-05 03:05:59 PM
First of 2 comments: Years ago I was talking to a police officer. He told me how he has seen the profession turn from being a "Peace Officer" to "Law Enforcement," and what a HUGE difference there is between the two.

A Peace Officer's job is to "keep the peace." He makes sure everyone is safe, little Timmy gets a milkshake and sent back home after he runs away, the neighborhood feuds are defused as much as possible, etc. This is where the "Serve & Protect" mindset comes from. It's all about the community, not just about one's cop peers. It's the Andy Griffith/Hamish Macbeth mindset.

A Law Enforcement officer's job is to FORCE people to obey the law - regardless if the law is common sense or not, or if it's actively harmful. This is the "just obeying orders" mindset of SWAT teams that break into innocent people's homes and shoot their dogs. And of the "seizure" laws that let police departments keep what they steal, as long as they can allege a crime was committed on the premises at some point.

We used to have "Peace Officers." But academy training has changed so now they are LEOs - Law Enforcement Officers.
 
2011-12-05 03:12:30 PM
Second comment: We just finished watching most of the DVDs of the latest available (on DVD) series of CSI: Miami. We were both struck by how insane Horatio Caine was talking and acting this season.

Years ago, Horatio was a saintly "Peace Officer" type of character. But this season he is beating up suspects and threatening to kill them. Even over the air, so anyone with a police radio can hear him threatening mayhem! This is incredibly unrealistic (see the last season of Closer for what actually can happen when a lawyer even suspects a cop is failing to protect suspects.) Plus, oh yeah, just plain WRONG!

Maybe in the season finale (which I haven't seen yet), Horatio has an epiphany and realizes he's gone to far. But so far, it looks like the writers actually APPROVE of this.

Need I remind you that CSI: Miami takes place in . . . Florida!
 
2011-12-05 04:32:38 PM
Again, I am ppleading for people to kill these things on sight. The exist only to suckle off the public teat and oppress the innocent.
 
2011-12-05 10:57:53 PM

GBB: ... and all IT professionals are nothing more than pissed off nerds that will hack into everyone's email, spy on their browsing habits, and steal your credit card information...


Hey! Don't tell all our secrets! Every IT Pro gave their, "Nerd Word," to remain silent on our inner workings at the start of their careers.
 
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