GaryPDX: Yea, about that. Why not a single mention who was buying all that shiatty paper from the banks. That's a conveniently missing detail.

Way to avoid RTFA.

And now we're seeing it in Europe! This is what happens when Barney Frank who by the way is a total homo forces the banks to give loans to minorities. They bring down the Eurozone!

Is their no limit to their power!?

hillbillypharmacist: GaryPDX: Yea, about that. Why not a single mention who was buying all that shiatty paper from the banks. That's a conveniently missing detail.

That's what the article was about. Did you bother to read it?

The banks knowingly made shiatty loans.

They knew they were not going to be holding those loans when the music stopped, because they could offload them onto... who?

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/01/opinion/kristof-a-banker-speaks-wi th -regret.html (new window)

That's what GaryPDX was referring to, although it should be noted that Fannie and Freddie were far from the only entities trading in mortgage-backed securities.

Can we at least get the CRA in to this argument? I love that part of it.

Ah the old strawman tactic.

They said subprime lending caused the collapse. That's different than saying the people who took out the loans caused the collapse.

That the article supports the idea that there was a distortion in the market that caused banks to favor subprime lending went right over the heads of the subby and TPM.

Home ownership is a new to many minorities. They certainly could have avoided much pain if they had just paid cash instead of taking a mortgage.

I have been repeatedly assured that the 2008 financial crisis was entirely the fault of Jimmy Carter, Barney Frank, the attractive and successful African-American community and Barry Soetero. This article must surely be in error.

The lender admitted they made more money off higher interest rate loans to riskier borrowers?

I'm shocked!

GaryPDX: Boys, these evil banks made shiatty mortages to people. They then sold them upstream Fannie and Freddie. That's the conveniently missing piece. Try to actually read what I said.

The worst loans of the crisis were writtin in 2004-2007, coincidentally the years when Fannie and Freddie had the lowest market share of sub prime loans.

So banks pushed shiatty loans over more stable ones, and therefore the people who took out the loans for farking buying housing bear no responsiblity what so ever for taking these bad loans and doing no research or forethought on what they were getting themselves into. Got it. And I'm not defending the banks remotely. But jesus, your making probably the biggest decision of your life, and you don't take the loan to your own accountant at least before you sign the damn thing?

thomps: DamnYankees: What about it? It's so blatantly not true its not worth discussing.

yeah the people who are still repeating this talking point are beyond convincing at this point. well past time to just laugh and move on.

THIS.

Debunked talking point is debunked.

Life is triage.

Save the ones you can and move on*.

/*After laughing and pointing,
//Yes. GPDX, looking at you.

Descartes: The lender admitted they made unethically gouged more money off higher interest rate loans to riskier naive and vulnerable borrowers who are disproportionately from already disadvantaged groups?

I'm shocked!

FTFY

EWreckedSean: you don't take the loan to your own accountant at least before you sign the damn thing?

...

Really?

People have their own accountant these days?

GaryPDX: Boys, these evil banks made shiatty mortages to people. They then sold them upstream Fannie and Freddie. That's the conveniently missing piece. Try to actually read what I said.

That's a load of crap. The percentage of loans that were backed by Fannie and Freddie dropped wildly starting in 2004, and the percentage of loans made by private companies with no backing at all from the government skyrocketed starting in 2004. Fannie and Freddie only started getting into the subprime business in late 2006, by which time the housing bubble was already starting to pop.

Lochsteppe: FTFY

You realize that poor credit risks pay higher rates?

Maybe not... let me try again...one day when you apply for a loan, maybe buy your first house, you'll find that there is a thing called your "credit rating" and it helps determine what rate you pay.

P.S. shop around, don't be a dumbass and go to only one bank

EWreckedSean: So banks pushed shiatty loans over more stable ones, and therefore the people who took out the loans for farking buying housing bear no responsiblity what so ever for taking these bad loans and doing no research or forethought on what they were getting themselves into. Got it. And I'm not defending the banks remotely. But jesus, your making probably the biggest decision of your life, and you don't take the loan to your own accountant at least before you sign the damn thing?

Enter EWreckedSean! Commence repetition of factual non sequiturs!

EWreckedSean: So banks pushed shiatty loans over more stable ones, and therefore the people who took out the loans for farking buying housing bear no responsiblity what so ever for taking these bad loans and doing no research or forethought on what they were getting themselves into. Got it. And I'm not defending the banks remotely. But jesus, your making probably the biggest decision of your life, and you don't take the loan to your own accountant at least before you sign the damn thing?

One person takes shiatty loan and defaults, personal financial crisis

Banks write and push shiatty loans for all and housing bubble collapses - national economic crisis

Slight difference.

Yes, because banks need to be forced to be greedy in the most short sighted way possible. All those poor minorities took advantage of the banks, who were forced, FORCED!!! I tell you, to lend to them. They had no choice but to package their loans up into CDOs and bribe the ratings agencies to declare them AAA investments. They had no choice, Barney Frank and Chris Dodd had a gun to their head.

I'll keep repeating this until it gets through conservatives' thick skulls. At the end of the day it was the banks' responsibility to make sure the people they lent to could pay their loans back. They used to have standards, they used to triple check every transaction in a bank statement, they used to call your work and make sure you actually worked where you said you worked and made what you said you made. They lowered their standards because they saw a demand for mortgage backed securities and there weren't enough legitimately qualified people to fill that demand. So they kept lowering the bar until a person could basically walk in, state that they had money, state that they had a job and they could walk out with $500k. The banks didn't care if the loan got paid back because by the time that eventuality came about they had long ago sold it to some poor chump who thought he was buying a share in a solid investment vehicle.

The banks acted in the most short sighted and irresponsible way possible and they got a bailout as a reward for nearly causing a worldwide depression. Stop holding water for the farkwits who broke the farking world economy.

Yah, This pretty much happened to me and I'm not a minority.

I was living in Southern California before the economy tanked and was making really good money with my new business. I took about $100K and put it down on a $500K home (slightly less than average cost there).

I was pre-approved for a mortgage and went in to discuss the process at their offices with my real estate agent.

Even back in 2005 you were starting to hear kind of scary things about ARMs and I told them that I wanted a 30 year fixed rate because I could afford that pretty well. I think at the time my payments would have been about $3500/mo under that plan.

My real estate agent and the mortgage broker then spent about 45 minutes to an hour arguing with me about the fixed rate and how it would be stupid to get anything but an ARM right now since I was young enough that I couldn't get the best rates otherwise and after two years banks would be fighting amongst each other to refinance me into a fixed rate that was better than what I could get then.

I asked about a hundred different questions and honestly argued for a good while, but I was a young guy buying his first home and these two supposedly experienced industry professionals were telling me that I was absolutely stupid for trying to get a fixed rate right now. I finally agreed to sign on an ARM mortgage that had my monthly costs at about $3000/mo. I didn't find out until much later that both my real estate agent *and* the broker received a significant commission from pushing me into the ARM that they wouldn't have received if I had stuck with a fixed rate.

Of course, two years later and SoCal absolutely crashed. My $500K home was now worth $250K. My loan reset and my payment went from $3000/mo (affordable) to $5500/mo (expensive as hell).

I talked to just about everybody trying to get refinanced and had no takers. A year later my rate was set to raise to the point where my monthly payments would have been $7500/mo (massive scam rate). At that point I just stopped paying. I tried to get my mortgage company to accept a short sale, or renegotiate and they kept sending me to one guys voicemail who would never return my calls. I tried to contact him more than a hundred times.

So yah... There were some really scummy people preying on inexperienced buyers back then. It's my responsibility overall, but predatory salesmanship like that shouldn't be legal.

/csb.

Conservatives are racists, it's an important part of their political philosophy. Once you accept and understand this, their actions aren't so confusing.

EWreckedSean: So banks pushed shiatty loans over more stable ones, and therefore the people who took out the loans for farking buying housing bear no responsiblity what so ever for taking these bad loans and doing no research or forethought on what they were getting themselves into. Got it. And I'm not defending the banks remotely. But jesus, your making probably the biggest decision of your life, and you don't take the loan to your own accountant at least before you sign the damn thing?

Have you read through all of the paperwork in your mortgage? Do you understand every last corner of how it functions? 99% of it is legalese garbage that makes no sense even to people who even try to interpret it. I spent over an hour reading and signing paper after paper after paper when I bought my house two and a half years ago, and my mind was so mushy afterwards that you could have told me George Washington was still the president and I would have believed you. Mortgages have been purposely made incomprehensible to anyone because the banks want them to be that way.

Descartes: Lochsteppe: FTFY

You realize that poor credit risks pay higher rates?

Maybe not... let me try again...one day when you apply for a loan, maybe buy your first house, you'll find that there is a thing called your "credit rating" and it helps determine what rate you pay.

P.S. shop around, don't be a dumbass and go to only one bank

If Fark gave out an award for smug, misdirected condescension, your response would be eligible.

EWreckedSean: So banks pushed shiatty loans over more stable ones, and therefore the people who took out the loans for farking buying housing bear no responsiblity what so ever for taking these bad loans and doing no research or forethought on what they were getting themselves into. Got it. And I'm not defending the banks remotely. But jesus, your making probably the biggest decision of your life, and you don't take the loan to your own accountant at least before you sign the damn thing?

The point of the article is that the banks were targeting very unsophisticated people with highly predatory loans. There's laws against that in most industries.

Yes, it would be better if people had their own attorney on retainer with which they can discuss these types of things with.... That's a pipe dream for most people however and does not absolve the banks of responsibility from their hideously unethical marketing and sales practices.

Submittard: So you know how conservatives blame the people who took the subprime loans for the financial collapse?

No, I don't.

So, you know how liberals make up whatever straw men they want about conservatives, confident that their echo chamber will never challenge their counterfactual assumptions?

Because we all no you can force someone to purchase something. Oh wait I keep forgetting about Obamacare.

Garet Garrett: Submittard: So you know how conservatives blame the people who took the subprime loans for the financial collapse?

No, I don't.

Everyone paying attention does. They've been rather vocal about it.

HotWingConspiracy: Conservatives are racists, it's an important part of their political philosophy. Once you accept and understand this, their actions aren't so confusing.

You rock. Really. Central casting hasn't got anyone who can hold a candle to you.

Rev.K: Wait a minute! You mean rather than admit that private banks were engaging in reprehensible lending schemes, conservatives would rather blame the minorities who assumed these predatory loans?!

I won't hear of it, subby.

Good day.

Yup. It's true that stupid people took out stupid loans. But I don't blame the stupid much, I blame the greedy. If I were to take x dollars (in the form of future bailouts) and deliver it to random street crackheads at predatory interest, sure, the crackheads would share some of the responsibility. But ultimately it's my greed that caused the problem, and I should have seen it coming.

Why conservatives are unable - or unwilling - to see this is beyond me.

Rapmaster2000: EWreckedSean: So banks pushed shiatty loans over more stable ones, and therefore the people who took out the loans for farking buying housing bear no responsiblity what so ever for taking these bad loans and doing no research or forethought on what they were getting themselves into. Got it. And I'm not defending the banks remotely. But jesus, your making probably the biggest decision of your life, and you don't take the loan to your own accountant at least before you sign the damn thing?

Enter EWreckedSean! Commence repetition of factual non sequiturs!

Ta-daa!

Ya know, though, EWreck, you've been working at this...thing that you do for quite a while. I have to admit you're getting better at handing out the lulz. I mean, "...take the loan to your own accountant...?" That's really good!

Congrats! Achievement unlocked- level II Troll!

HotWingConspiracy: Garet Garrett: Submittard: So you know how conservatives blame the people who took the subprime loans for the financial collapse?

No, I don't.

Everyone paying attention does. They've been rather vocal about it.

Oh, silly me. I'm just a conservative. What would I know about whom I blame for things? I'm so glad you're around to tell me, otherwise I'd be completely in the dark about my own beliefs and feelings!

So then drug dealers are to blame and not the users?

Liquor stores owners are the problem and not the alcoholics?

Seal clubbers are the to blame and not the seals?

Okay well maybe not that last one but you see what I'm getting at.

Garet Garrett: HotWingConspiracy: Conservatives are racists, it's an important part of their political philosophy. Once you accept and understand this, their actions aren't so confusing.

You rock. Really. Central casting hasn't got anyone who can hold a candle to you.

What's the problem? Racists and minorities know who the racists are and they vote accordingly. They're honest about it.

TheMysticS: Rapmaster2000: EWreckedSean: So banks pushed shiatty loans over more stable ones, and therefore the people who took out the loans for farking buying housing bear no responsiblity what so ever for taking these bad loans and doing no research or forethought on what they were getting themselves into. Got it. And I'm not defending the banks remotely. But jesus, your making probably the biggest decision of your life, and you don't take the loan to your own accountant at least before you sign the damn thing?

Enter EWreckedSean! Commence repetition of factual non sequiturs!

Ta-daa!

Ya know, though, EWreck, you've been working at this...thing that you do for quite a while. I have to admit you're getting better at handing out the lulz. I mean, "...take the loan to your own accountant...?" That's really good!

Congrats! Achievement unlocked- level II Troll!

*snertle*

/Now I want an achievement too :(
/I'll have to start Farking more after the semester's over

Garet Garrett: HotWingConspiracy: Garet Garrett: Submittard: So you know how conservatives blame the people who took the subprime loans for the financial collapse?

No, I don't.

Everyone paying attention does. They've been rather vocal about it.

Oh, silly me. I'm just a conservative. What would I know about whom I blame for things? I'm so glad you're around to tell me, otherwise I'd be completely in the dark about my own beliefs and feelings!

You failed to take in to account that you're a nobody. Conservatives that actually matter have been pushing this view for a long time now.

HotWingConspiracy: Garet Garrett: HotWingConspiracy: Conservatives are racists, it's an important part of their political philosophy. Once you accept and understand this, their actions aren't so confusing.

You rock. Really. Central casting hasn't got anyone who can hold a candle to you.

What's the problem? Racists and minorities know who the racists are and they vote accordingly. They're honest about it.

Then they should vote for someone other then Democrats as they have made a political career out of making "minorities" dependent on them.

Case in point

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=bavou_SEj1E

dickfreckle: Rev.K: Wait a minute! You mean rather than admit that private banks were engaging in reprehensible lending schemes, conservatives would rather blame the minorities who assumed these predatory loans?!

I won't hear of it, subby.

Good day.

Yup. It's true that stupid people took out stupid loans. But I don't blame the stupid much, I blame the greedy. If I were to take x dollars (in the form of future bailouts) and deliver it to random street crackheads at predatory interest, sure, the crackheads would share some of the responsibility. But ultimately it's my greed that caused the problem, and I should have seen it coming.

Why conservatives are unable - or unwilling - to see this is beyond me.

You're only seeing half the picture, if that. If some idiot wants to loan $1,000 to somebody who's stunningly unlikely to pay it back, that's no skin off my back, because that's the idiot's $1,000 to burn. And if he loans it out, and doesn't get paid back, it doesn't cause a financial meltdown.

The problem was much higher up the foodchain, at the point where the policy pinheads (who thought it was a good idea to incentivize subprime lending), the benighted ratings agencies (who couldn't figure out that if you put 500,000 bad loans together, they're still bad loans), and the Harvard Business School MBAs (who got paid to devise ridiculously complex instruments that no one could figure out, even them) got together, creating systemic risk out of what should've been a random assortment of bad loans. These loans only contributed to the financial crisis once there was a notion that we were going to collectively bear the risk that the original idiot undertook.

And, for the record, I don't know of a single even moderately well-informed conservative who blames the financial "collapse" uniquely on the subprime market, let alone on the borrowers in that market.

thomps: madcan34: So then drug dealers are to blame and not the users?

Liquor stores owners are the problem and not the alcoholics?

Seal clubbers are the to blame and not the seals?

Okay well maybe not that last one but you see what I'm getting at.

if liquor store owners aggressively after people with little to no understanding of alcohol and told them it was a new type of coca cola, then yes they would be to blame.



Been done.