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(Forbes) Followup Is Facebook's $100 billion IPO psychotic or just idiotic?   (forbes.com) divider line 39
More: Followup, IPO, Facebook, Psycho  
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1294 clicks; posted to Business » on 30 Nov 2011 at 11:57 AM   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»   |    Get this fabulous T-Shirt and impress the methane out of your friends! shirt it!



39 Comments   (+0 »)
   
 
2011-11-30 10:18:11 AM
The people with the money and the right connections are going to jump all over this over-inflated turd. Once they find out what they've actually bought, though, they are going to be *pissed off*. And as rule #1 in business is "Don't piss off the money", this will spell the end of Facebook.
 
2011-11-30 11:54:29 AM
Hooray!

Another bubble!
 
2011-11-30 12:04:13 PM
i wish they would just stay private and damn the employees looking to cash out. going public is going to force them to manage near-term revenue expectations, which could really hurt the UX, and they are going to be sitting on a sh*tload of cash that they will be forced to spend regardless of whether they have anything good to spend it on.
 
2011-11-30 12:05:01 PM
I always recommend investing in idle chatter. Place your bets and spin the wheel!

Gawd some people are stupid.
 
2011-11-30 12:13:56 PM
Is there any way to put money on this being an absolute failure?

Facebook will come to pass, it's already a shady enterprise with people's privacy and for the most part the majority of people who use facebook use it as a rolodex, stalk friends of friends for whatever reason (most likely in attempts to hookup with them), and to play time wasting games.
 
2011-11-30 12:14:31 PM
Sure the short term seems shaky, but the long term... yeah this is going to be bad.
 
2011-11-30 12:17:56 PM
Is Facebook's $100 billion IPO psychotic or just idiotic?

Why not both?
LegacyDL: Is there any way to put money on this being an absolute failure?

Facebook will come to pass, it's already a shady enterprise with people's privacy and for the most part the majority of people who use facebook use it as a rolodex, stalk friends of friends for whatever reason (most likely in attempts to hookup with them), and to play time wasting games.


I don't really know how short-selling works in a practical manner, but I think you can only bet against a stock in the short term. If I could bet against it in the long term, I'd consider it.
 
2011-11-30 12:18:03 PM
"They could put ads in a lot of places and they're very deliberate about not doing that."

But they will be when shareholders have a say. They'll be putting ads on key words in your updates soon enough. Once fb turns in to a massive advertising platform, it goes the way of AOL. A lot of people will be fine with it, but tons of people will punt.
 
2011-11-30 12:20:15 PM
People with money will make more money. Everyone else will take a bath when the bubble bursts.
 
2011-11-30 12:37:17 PM
Valuation: $100 billion
Annual Revenue: ~$3 billion ($1.6 billion in revenue in the first half of 2011)
Annual net income: ?
Estimated Revenue growth: ?
Estimated life of business: ?

if you beleive the business will be around for the next 10 years and revenue will double in the next few years, the IPO makes sense.

/I would bet against it though
 
2011-11-30 12:37:43 PM
HotWingConspiracy: "They could put ads in a lot of places and they're very deliberate about not doing that."

But they will be when shareholders have a say. They'll be putting ads on key words in your updates soon enough. Once fb turns in to a massive advertising platform, it goes the way of AOL. A lot of people will be fine with it, but tons of people will punt.


They already do this. A post about puppies will get you ads for puppies for sale, as an example.
 
2011-11-30 12:37:55 PM
How much is the personal information of most of the Western world worth is the real question.
 
2011-11-30 12:38:27 PM
Make sure your brokerage account is set up to be able to trade on margin and use "Sell Short"

You can hold on to it as long as you like, just buy back when the turd tanks. Made a nice chunk of change shorting Linked In. You can never make more than 100% of your initial investment but I can live with that.

I'll definitely be shorting me some Facebook when I can.
 
2011-11-30 12:42:59 PM
LegacyDL: Is there any way to put money on this being an absolute failure?

Facebook will come to pass, it's already a shady enterprise with people's privacy and for the most part the majority of people who use facebook use it as a rolodex, stalk friends of friends for whatever reason (most likely in attempts to hookup with them), and to play time wasting games.


Have an investment account and short sell Facebook three days after their IPO.
 
2011-11-30 12:44:57 PM
Yes.
 
2011-11-30 12:45:30 PM
ha-ha-guy: How much is the personal information of most of the Western world worth is the real question.

i think that might even be too narrow a definition of the asset. aside from personal information, it's also the largest social hub in the western world and increasingly a global online identifier (as more sites are starting to use the login through facebook feature). i'm not saying it's worth $100B, but its business model isn't all unsustainable smoke and mirrors like a lot of recent IPOs *cough groupon cough*.
 
2011-11-30 12:51:24 PM
atomic-age: HotWingConspiracy: "They could put ads in a lot of places and they're very deliberate about not doing that."

But they will be when shareholders have a say. They'll be putting ads on key words in your updates soon enough. Once fb turns in to a massive advertising platform, it goes the way of AOL. A lot of people will be fine with it, but tons of people will punt.

They already do this. A post about puppies will get you ads for puppies for sale, as an example.


No I mean the ad will be in your status update for all your friends to see and click.
 
2011-11-30 12:58:14 PM
HotWingConspiracy: atomic-age: HotWingConspiracy: "They could put ads in a lot of places and they're very deliberate about not doing that."

But they will be when shareholders have a say. They'll be putting ads on key words in your updates soon enough. Once fb turns in to a massive advertising platform, it goes the way of AOL. A lot of people will be fine with it, but tons of people will punt.

They already do this. A post about puppies will get you ads for puppies for sale, as an example.

No I mean the ad will be in your status update for all your friends to see and click.


i have to believe that they'll keep user experience at the forefront of their decisions for exactly the reasons you're mentioning. other sites have gone public with little or no changes to their ad placements.
 
2011-11-30 12:58:59 PM
I will go with psychotic. It is a small percentage chance that they will be able to adapt and change in order to keep their current client base. I just see them getting overrun by the newer social media flavor of the week in the next year or two. I just do not believe there is any way they can generate enough revenue to be able make it worth investors time before it goes the way of the dodo. Plenty of people will get into a bidding war so they can catch the first bubble though.
 
2011-11-30 01:30:09 PM
How is it they make money again? Someone said ads but I really never see any ads.
I think they sell our data; that would be where the real money is.
 
2011-11-30 01:37:54 PM
ignatiusst: The people with the money and the right connections are going to jump all over this over-inflated turd. Once they find out what they've actually bought, though, they are going to be *pissed off*. And as rule #1 in business is "Don't piss off the money", this will spell the end of Facebook.

Facebook is too big to fail. What would replace it? Myspace? Please.

So if this goes tits-up we will simply provide endless amounts of public funds to prop up this essential industry.

/I'm assuming Zuckerberg or his handlers have been intelligent enough to grease the right palms.
 
2011-11-30 01:42:50 PM
Saiga410: I will go with psychotic

Yep. Definitely not stupid, but certainly almost a form of a clandestine "We will soon reap the money of some very rich idiots" form of thought.

The people that would be buying shares in/just buying Facebook are the kind of people who see the immediate rewards and potentialities - ads farking everywhere, extensive personal info on hundreds of millions of people - rather than the actual results from exploiting those capacities to their fullest (Facebook crashing harder than MySpace).

atomic-age: They already do this. A post about puppies will get you ads for puppies for sale, as an example.

Have you ever been on one of those shiatty vbulletin boards that hyperlink random words (like "Windows") and add a hyperlink on top of a hover overlay that loads an ad and tries to redirect your browser to a seller's website?

Like that, only far worse.
 
2011-11-30 01:47:59 PM
I would bet ON it being a success - In a decade the way we search online is going to be completely altered because of things like FB and twitter.

Why do you think Google+ was created... Fear.
 
2011-11-30 01:54:27 PM
They will only sell a 10% stake.

That means that at any time after the IPO they could sell an additional 90% of their stock. Unless you are a banker that has his hands in managing the initial offering this is a surefire way for losing money.
 
2011-11-30 02:02:53 PM
Forbes is really hating on the market today. Must be that big rally today based on "lending will go up" from the major banks... who may all be downgraded anyway.

Of course, in two weeks we'll hear about 'We have the money to lend, but we can't find anyone with a credit score of 930 to give it to, so lending is actually down." And the stock market will tank again.
 
2011-11-30 02:10:49 PM
SomethingInYourTeeth: How is it they make money again? Someone said ads but I really never see any ads.
I think they sell our data; that would be where the real money is.


I rarely use Facebook, but I always see a "sponsored" section on most pages. My ad blocker doesn't catch it, even.
 
2011-11-30 02:13:21 PM
thomps: i think that might even be too narrow a definition of the asset. aside from personal information, it's also the largest social hub in the western world and increasingly a global online identifier (as more sites are starting to use the login through facebook feature). i'm not saying it's worth $100B, but its business model isn't all unsustainable smoke and mirrors like a lot of recent IPOs *cough groupon cough*.

Agreed. Unlike MySpace, Friendster... *everyone and their mother* uses Facebook. Heck, even people like me- who tried to avoid it- have to use it to communicate with idiots who refuse to use anything but Facebook to communicate. (My cousin from down under was coming for a visit... something that takes a little bit of logistics, ya know... and only ever communicates through Facebook. Frustrating.)
 
2011-11-30 02:16:32 PM
JohnAnnArbor: Is Facebook's $100 billion IPO psychotic or just idiotic?

Why not both?
LegacyDL: Is there any way to put money on this being an absolute failure?

Facebook will come to pass, it's already a shady enterprise with people's privacy and for the most part the majority of people who use facebook use it as a rolodex, stalk friends of friends for whatever reason (most likely in attempts to hookup with them), and to play time wasting games.

I don't really know how short-selling works in a practical manner, but I think you can only bet against a stock in the short term. If I could bet against it in the long term, I'd consider it.


I have recently wiki'd the term short sale, and I am still confused, but maybe some people can correct me and inform me how the short sale works.

My (uneducated) understanding: You "borrow" stocks from the company and sell them. Let's say 100 stocks are borrowed. You sell them for $10 thinking they will decrease in price. You have $1,000

Time goes by and the company wants its stocks back, so you buy back the stocks you sold at the lower price, say $5. You in turn, give the 100 stocks back to the company and keep the $500 you made in the transaction.

I just don't understand why a company would let someone else "borrow" stocks instead of handling themselves. Maybe someone can better explain it.
 
2011-11-30 02:34:32 PM
Hyjamon: JohnAnnArbor: Is Facebook's $100 billion IPO psychotic or just idiotic?

Why not both?
LegacyDL: Is there any way to put money on this being an absolute failure?

Facebook will come to pass, it's already a shady enterprise with people's privacy and for the most part the majority of people who use facebook use it as a rolodex, stalk friends of friends for whatever reason (most likely in attempts to hookup with them), and to play time wasting games.

I don't really know how short-selling works in a practical manner, but I think you can only bet against a stock in the short term. If I could bet against it in the long term, I'd consider it.

I have recently wiki'd the term short sale, and I am still confused, but maybe some people can correct me and inform me how the short sale works.

My (uneducated) understanding: You "borrow" stocks from the company and sell them. Let's say 100 stocks are borrowed. You sell them for $10 thinking they will decrease in price. You have $1,000

Time goes by and the company wants its stocks back, so you buy back the stocks you sold at the lower price, say $5. You in turn, give the 100 stocks back to the company and keep the $500 you made in the transaction.

I just don't understand why a company would let someone else "borrow" stocks instead of handling themselves. Maybe someone can better explain it.


You are not looking at the brokerage's interest income. They love short sellers. Say a brokerage has a million shares of XYZ they are holding in margin accounts. They are getting say 5% interest on the loaned balance and hold the shares as collateral. They loan the shares to you to short. You put up 50% margin plus the proceeds of the sale. The brokerage pays you say 4% on that. There are a lot more long margins than short so the brokerage makes 1% on the float for 150% of your short sale. Your short sale is just money of their own they don't have to loan on margin accounts.
 
2011-11-30 02:38:33 PM
Someone Other Than Me is going to make a lot of money on this one.
 
2011-11-30 02:42:28 PM
Hyjamon: I just don't understand why a company would let someone else "borrow" stocks instead of handling themselves. Maybe someone can better explain it.

I thought you were borrowing them from a broker, not the actual company itself. The broker gets a commision on both the sale and repurchase so they really can't lose.

In any event, Facebook really has no prospects for further growth that I can see. They've pretty much maxed out their market niche and a lot of people (myself included) have quit using it. I don't want to use a social network that counts my mom as a member.
 
2011-11-30 02:44:17 PM
Hyjamon:

I don't really know how short-selling works in a practical manner, but I think you can only bet against a stock in the short term. If I could bet against it in the long term, I'd consider it.

I have recently wiki'd the term short sale, and I am still confused, but maybe some people can correct me and inform me how the short sale works.

My (uneducated) understanding: You "borrow" stocks from the company and sell them. Let's say 100 stocks are borrowed. You sell them for $10 thinking they will decrease in price. You have $1,000

Time goes by and the company wants its stocks back, so you buy back the stocks you sold at the lower price, say $5. You in turn, give the 100 stocks back to the company and keep the $500 you made in the transaction.

I just don't understand why a company would let someone else "borrow" stocks instead of handling themselves. Maybe someone can better explain it.


They don't let you borrow the stocks for free.

Also the people lending the stocks might not be keen on dabbling in short sales directly, preferring to take a (almost) guaranteed, but modest, profit and let someone else risk losing their shirt in the chase of huge profits.
 
2011-11-30 03:02:04 PM
Useless exercise:

-The S&P 500 is currently trading at 1.2x revenues.
-Google is currently trading at 5.4x revenues, market cap of $193.3 billion.
-Facebook at $100 billion would represent 24.7x revenues (2011 revenue est. of $4.05 billion).
-Google's market cap at 24.7x would be just under $900 billion, or slightly below South Korea's annual GDP (15th largest economy in the world).

Okay, so the whole exercise is a stretch. FB's growth rates will drop as it gets larger, the multiple will come in. Google is already considered a more mature company, maybe deserving of a lower multiple. But Facebook already has more than 800 million users so I'd say the marketable user base is already getting somewhat saturated.

I just think the whole thing is silly. I'm sure the stock will pop higher at open, but buying into the Facebook hype will end up being a game of musical chairs for your average investor.
 
2011-11-30 03:12:48 PM
Shorting a recent IPO stock is dangerous. Keep in mind that when you're long on a stock, your losses are limited to what you invest, but if you short a stock, your losses are theoretically unlimited. Sure, YOU may feel that the stock is overpriced, but in reality, your opinion doesn't matter - the only thing that matters is what the market thinks. People who have a history of investing in the market have probably seen misplaced optimism drive a share price higher and higher with no reasonable explanation, and the bullish sentiment for the company can continue much longer than originally anticipated.

There won't be a lot of upside to shorting this. Facebook is a household name and it hasn't been plagued with accounting scandals, so while the price may tank eventually, it probably won't happen right away. I'm just going to steer clear of this one.
 
2011-11-30 03:16:05 PM
LegacyDL: Is there any way to put money on this being an absolute failure?

Facebook will come to pass, it's already a shady enterprise with people's privacy and for the most part the majority of people who use facebook use it as a rolodex, stalk friends of friends for whatever reason (most likely in attempts to hookup with them), and to play time wasting games.


Short the hell out of it when it's at peak waargarble.
 
2011-11-30 04:01:52 PM
ignatiusst: The people with the money and the right connections are going to jump all over this over-inflated turd. Once they find out what they've actually bought, though, they are going to be *pissed off*. And as rule #1 in business is "Don't piss off the money", this will spell the end of Facebook.

Do you know how I know that you don't know how the IPO market works (sing this in William Shatner's voice)?
 
2011-11-30 06:25:59 PM
thomps: they are going to be sitting on a sh*tload of cash that they will be forced to spend regardless of whether they have anything good to spend it on.

Woohoo, indiscriminate hiring spree!

Maybe I'll scam my way into a six-figure analyst position with them, sit back and spend more time hoarding freebies than doing work, and then bail out a year later when the layoffs start happening.
 
2011-11-30 06:35:38 PM
poot_rootbeer: thomps: they are going to be sitting on a sh*tload of cash that they will be forced to spend regardless of whether they have anything good to spend it on.

Woohoo, indiscriminate hiring spree!

Maybe I'll scam my way into a six-figure analyst position with them, sit back and spend more time hoarding freebies than doing work, and then bail out a year later when the layoffs start happening.


you're thinking too small. build some bullsh*t fb app and get them to buy it for way too much during their inevitable acquisition orgy.
 
2011-12-01 01:44:23 AM
Wall street, where 100,000,000 dollars is equal to 30,000,000,000 dollars somehow. For those of you who don't like so many 0's that 100 million dollars being equal to 30 billion dollars.

/Way too damn high.
 
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