"He lives in his own delusional universe and his thoughts and acts are governed by this universe."


Apperantly it is quite easy to acquire deadly weapons in this universe.

I think the key phrase from that article is they can hold him for life if he remains insane. During all the earlier threads there were a lot of comments about how there was some max prison sentence of like 15 or 20 years. Whereas so long as the shrinks keep saying he is insane they can keep him in a nice padded cell.

Adolf Oliver Nipples: Is anybody who willfully murders someone, knowing full well what the penalties are for murder, actually sane?

If it's the penalties that are keeping you from killing, then you're probably insane anyway because the only thing stopping you is fear. I would hope empathy would be the main deterrent, but I know better.

/ Not to be confused with projection, which is far more common

smooshie: Bbbbut how will Norwegians satisfy their Viking-borne lust for revenge now?

/by moving to Texas?

By releasing him from custody on a lonely road with no escorts.

"The conclusion is ... is that he is insane," prosecutor Svein Holden told a news conference.

"He lives in his own delusional universe and his thoughts and acts are governed by this universe."

A universe where murder is still a crime, if Breivik's own comments are any indication.

good thing it didn't happen in California. they'd probably blame his parents or too many Twinkies.

ha-ha-guy: I think the key phrase from that article is they can hold him for life if he remains insane. During all the earlier threads there were a lot of comments about how there was some max prison sentence of like 15 or 20 years. Whereas so long as the shrinks keep saying he is insane they can keep him in a nice padded cell.

He was going to be held for life regardless of the outcome of the psych report. As has been explained time and time again, a Norwegian prisoner that poses a danger to society can be held in custody for the rest of his life after having served his 20-some year term.

The only thing that's potentially changed post-report is WHERE he is going to be kept.

Insane or not the guy should fry.

smooshie: Bbbbut how will Norwegians satisfy their Viking-borne lust for revenge now?

/by moving to Texas?

By starting their own regular ordinary Youtube cooking show?

They control the grammar and the whole shaboozie, obviously.

Adolf Oliver Nipples: The argument I'm making is that no person can seriously think that they'll get away with murder. The overwhelming majority of them are solved every year, a murderer has to believe he will be caught. Therefore, the very act of killing somebody in a premeditated fashion is irrational, and doing so in the face of life imprisonment or the death penalty demonstrates a total disregard for their personal well-being. They're committing suicide by state.

Most of what we do is irrational. Welcome to being a human.

Sounds like a way to keep him in prison for life and not give him a forum at a trial to espouse his beliefs.

Back to the drawing board

Come on, out of 77 people, surely at least one of them was a Muslim.

_{/Doesn't Norway have an ice floe they can put him on?}

cbackous: The arguement that the death penalty is a deterrent is a very flawed argument.

If the death penalty were a deterrent to murdering someone then the places where such a penalty exists would have little to no murders or victims of such. Manslaughter (i.e. accidental) yes, but not out right premeditated killing someone.

The fact some of the USA does have a death penalty and those states have the death row stuffed full of prisoners kind of proves that it's not a deterrent.

Why a place describing itself as a "Christian country" would actually have a death penalty is utterly beyond me; Jesus would not approve.

PSYCHIATRIC EVALUATION OF PEACE

All the insanity in the world doesn't change the fact that this guy needs killin'. When a dog goes rabid, you don't look for extenuating circumstances, you put it down. You don't do it as a "punishment", for the dog has no idea of the illegality of its actions, just like the lunatic. But you do it just the same, for the sake of society.

Raid doesn't make an "Incarceration Strength".

smooshie: Bbbbut how will Norwegians satisfy their Viking-borne lust for revenge now?

/by moving to Texas?

Actually, if you happen to be watching the news and see a very elderly and kind looking Norwegian lady suddenly let fly with a mighty battle cry while trying to introduce Herr Breivik to the concept of the blood eagle with the sharpened edges of her walker - that would be my aunt. I still have a lot of family in Norway and they all want a piece of him, but she's the one who has been so vocal with her threats that it's a bit worrying. She's a mean old bird, that one. Surviving Nazi occupation can do that to you, I guess.

/they still got it, it's just mellowed a bit with age

what_now: How is this outcome any different from what would have happened to him had he gone to trial? Norway does not have the death penalty- he was always going to spend his life locked up.

But but but... 15 years socicommiefascigarbl!

Meh. Whether someone is insane or not has never concerned me much when someone kills someone else - in particular multiple murders. "Yeah, but he's crazy" doesn't resurrect the murdered. IMHO mass murderers should be put to death with as little fanfare as possible.

What's most important is what we do with the person afterwards, now that they've proven to be a mortal danger to innocent people. If they need this to keep him locked away from society for longer than their justice system normally allows, then fine. Personally, I see no good reason to not to just execute him and be done with it, but their criminal justice system works better than ours does in general (the one shortcoming they're trying to circumvent here is pretty minor in the grand scheme of things) so I'm not expecting that they do anything ridiculous with him like let him go free at some point.

Whether he really is crazy or not? I don't think so. He was diligent, motivated, cautious and reasoned. He had a clear political motive, devised a very complex plan of action, covertly worked towards realizing his goals for years and then finally executed the plan with competent precision. That doesn't sound like someone insane to me unless we are stretching the definition of "insane" to include "people who do something we find repugnant". Someone who really lived in a fantasy world wouldn't be able to navigate our world as efficiently as this a-hole did.

sarah_t_s: Jesus would not approve.

You know what? Screw your mythological creatures. "Jesus'" father approved; what more do you need? Are you saying the mythological son is wiser than his mythological father?

Adolf Oliver Nipples: cbackous: The arguement that the death penalty is a deterrent is a very flawed argument.

I didn't make that argument.

The argument I'm making is that no person can seriously think that they'll get away with murder. The overwhelming majority of them are solved every year, a murderer has to believe he will be caught. Therefore, the very act of killing somebody in a premeditated fashion is irrational, and doing so in the face of life imprisonment or the death penalty demonstrates a total disregard for their personal well-being. They're committing suicide by state.

Actually, in 2007, the solve rate in the US was about 61% (new window).

If your crime was driven by passion, you're unlikely to get away with it. There are plenty of variables, but if you are going to murder for profit or compulsion, as cbackous put it, I'd say your odds are pretty good, especially if you're meticulous about it. The proliferation of resources that detail things like forensic investigations just make it easier to plan and execute one murder and get away with it.

cbackous: So the punishment doesnt matter. The arguement that the death penalty is a deterrent is a very flawed argument.

This. The only purpose for the death penalty is revenge.

Wow. Courtroom security. Is that the best Larry Wilcox could do after CHiPs?

Adolf Oliver Nipples: The argument I'm making is that no person can seriously think that they'll get away with murder. The overwhelming majority of them are solved every year, a murderer has to believe he will be caught.

Clearance rates vary a lot, but the national average for murder is currently 60%. Some of those only happen years after the fact. Only on CSI or Law and Order is it like 90%. Keeping in mind there are lots of dumb people out there who make up that 60%, and are convicted of murder because they did the bare minimum to establish malice aforethought (did a web search for poison, unlocked a safe to get a gun before shooting someone, no plan to cover up or 'get away with it') it's not hard to see how a rational but morally bankrupt person could convince themselves they could pull off murder.

Therefore, the very act of killing somebody in a premeditated fashion is irrational, and doing so in the face of life imprisonment or the death penalty demonstrates a total disregard for their personal well-being. They're committing suicide by state.

(1) irrational is not insane
(2) exceedingly few people are put to death, and for those who are it usually takes a decade or more

cbackous: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Just a thought:

Is anybody who willfully murders someone, knowing full well what the penalties are for murder, actually sane? It's not like we keep those consequences a secret or anything.

People muder under 3 reasons: Passion, profit, compulsion.

Profit: they do it rationally, they are convinced they wont get caught.
Passion: come home and catch your spouse cheating as an example. You arent really insane, but you dont think clearly.
Compulsion: Manson, Gacey, son of sam, Dahmer come to mind. They try to hide the bodies and what they did cause they new it was wrong, but because it's a compulsion, they will continue to do it.

So the punishment doesnt matter. The arguement that the death penalty is a deterrent is a very flawed argument.

I'd just like to point out that Manson only ever killed one person, and he isn't even serving a sentence for that (as far as I know). I'd say he's a different kind of killer that the others; he's more like a low-rent Hitler or Stalin, who get other people to do their killing for them.

How many years before Scotland asks him to be released?

He acted on the words and ideas of American right wingers and he has been declared insane. Make of that what you will.

dragonchild: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Is anybody who willfully murders someone, knowing full well what the penalties are for murder, actually sane?

If it's the penalties that are keeping you from killing, then you're probably insane anyway because the only thing stopping you is fear. I would hope empathy would be the main deterrent, but I know better.

/ Not to be confused with projection, which is far more common

Why do you even need a deterrent?

Will Glenn Beck continue to defend the guy by blaming the 'Leftist' victims?

smooshie: Bbbbut how will Norwegians satisfy their Viking-borne lust for revenge now?

/by moving to Texas?

To be honest, given the situation, Breivik is worse off being declared insane. Being insane he would be stuck in a psychiatric institution for as long as takes for doctors declare him sane, which may take a very long time. Otherwise at most he would be going to jail for at most 20 years in the nicest jail since Hotel Escobar.

mongbiohazard: Meh. Whether someone is insane or not has never concerned me much when someone kills someone else - in particular multiple murders. "Yeah, but he's crazy" doesn't resurrect the murdered. IMHO mass murderers should be put to death with as little fanfare as possible.

What's most important is what we do with the person afterwards, now that they've proven to be a mortal danger to innocent people. If they need this to keep him locked away from society for longer than their justice system normally allows, then fine. Personally, I see no good reason to not to just execute him and be done with it, but their criminal justice system works better than ours does in general (the one shortcoming they're trying to circumvent here is pretty minor in the grand scheme of things) so I'm not expecting that they do anything ridiculous with him like let him go free at some point.

Whether he really is crazy or not? I don't think so. He was diligent, motivated, cautious and reasoned. He had a clear political motive, devised a very complex plan of action, covertly worked towards realizing his goals for years and then finally executed the plan with competent precision. That doesn't sound like someone insane to me unless we are stretching the definition of "insane" to include "people who do something we find repugnant". Someone who really lived in a fantasy world wouldn't be able to navigate our world as efficiently as this a-hole did.

You sounded rational right up to the point you diagnosed him over the Internet. Do you know insanity standards in Norway? Are you qualified to make this judgement? I doubt it.

MFAWG: Will Glenn Beck continue to defend the guy by blaming the 'Leftist' victims?

Huffing paint, this is how it works.

HotWingConspiracy: He acted on the words and ideas of American right wingers and he has been declared insane. Make of that what you will.

Don't you ever get tired of being a liberal partisan shill, waterboy and farktard? Ever?

Joe Blowme: Insane or not the guy should fry.

I understand your sentiment. The guy's a mad dog psycho who mowed down 77 people. Old Yeller only growled at Arlis and Travis blew him away because he knew he couldn't be cured. It's a pretty safe bet that this guy can't be cured either, and even if he could, who is willing to gamble on his rehabilitation.

However, where do you draw the line? The guy has been determined to be insane - therefore - according to our definition, he is unable to form the requisite mental intent or appreciate the nature and quality of his actions. Much like a child. What if a 5 year-old child kills another? What should their punishment be? At the end of the day, it is a similar circumstance from a legal perspective. In both cases, the person is not subject to criminal sanction because they don't appreciate the nature and quality of their actions.