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(Jacksonville.com)   If the country was serious about ending the debt woes, it would cancel all military flyovers at professional sporting events   (jacksonville.com) divider line 154
    More: Obvious, sporting events, University of Phoenix Stadium, El Centro, Veterans Day, thunderbird, Times-Union, Florida Panhandle, reader response  
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9787 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Nov 2011 at 11:39 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2011-11-28 11:57:40 AM

beta_plus: Military spending and tax cuts are the only reason we have a deficit. Just get rid of them and America will never be in the red again.


How about the entire government, including the military, just spends less? To be bothered that someone else gets a tax cut demonstrates a real loser mentality. I won't say bad things about you, because you might be my brother. He refers to the guy in front of us in a BMW or Mercedes as a "rich farker" as if he knows that person and as if neither of could be driving the exact same car had we not pissed our money away on 20 years of immediate gratification spending rather than saving. If you save your money instead of drinking and smoking it, and then you invest your AFTER TAX dollars, you shouldn't be penalized with large taxes in the event you should happen to earn a good return on the same money someone else might have shoved up their nose over the course of several weekends. Losers will disagree however...and they will complain about it any chance they get. They won't change their lives for the better, but they will try to drag down others. That's why they are losers.
 
2011-11-28 11:57:43 AM

theorellior: It's like a reverse Immelman troll.


Since a split-S is a backward Immelman, this would be a split-_ss troll. Seems about right.
 
2011-11-28 11:58:09 AM

beta_plus: Military spending and tax cuts are the only reason we have a deficit. Just get rid of them and America will never be in the red again.


You know, we hear this endless cry for "jobs, jobs, jobs". You do understand that the military, its contractors, support staff, acquisition apparatus, etc., also known as the "military-industrial complex", is collectively the largest government employment program in the United States, don't you? But hey, the best way to create jobs is to cut them, so let's slash the military to the bone and raise taxes on the newly unemployed. Great idea. I suppose we could probably find a way to squeeze blood from a turnip, too. We're Americans, we can do anything!

OK, I'm done with the sarcasm now.

If we're going to do something like that we have to think it through. It's never as simple as some of you seem to think it is, and it shouldn't be done on a whim. Should we cut back on military spending? Yes. But it should be done in stages to minimize the impact. Should we raise taxes? Sure. Again, stages. You can't just do it overnight. You can't just "get rid of them".

Also, America will never be in the black again, but that's an argument that we could have all day. Let's just say that deficit spending is an expedient way for politicians to "do something" without ever having to pay the consequences for their actions, and after the Euro collapses and the US Dollar is massively strengthened the calls for national debt/deficit spending reduction will diminish dramatically.
 
2011-11-28 11:58:13 AM
How about we stop the wasteful vacation flights by Oobooma and Moochi?
 
2011-11-28 11:59:57 AM

beta_plus: Military spending and tax cuts are the only reason we have a deficit. Just get rid of them and America will never be in the red again.


Canada seems to be doing very well without much of a military. Why can't the USA? The USA is #1 at making war and spending more money than it has.
 
2011-11-28 12:00:54 PM

Philip Francis Queeg: Flowing low over a stadium in a tight formation has pretty much zero in common with modern combat. Unless they are practicing to be sitting ducks, there is little or no training value in a fly-by.


And yet, as I said before, the fly-by is almost always a 5-minute part of a long training flight. I've been on many fly-bys, and I'm busy as hell for the rest of the flight.
 
2011-11-28 12:01:13 PM

Adolf Oliver Nipples: But hey, the best way to create jobs is to cut them,


You hush about the emperor's clothes, now.
 
2011-11-28 12:01:14 PM
maniac64

I wonder how many people showing up at the recruiting station go, "hey i was just over at the football game and saw your flyover, can I join up and do that too?"


And the recruiter says "Sure. I can get you a guaranteed seat in the fighter plane of your choice. I need you to fill out this form though. In the MOS field, put 11B. That means you are going to go right to the front of fighter plane operator. You'll just have to complete some thing called One Station Unit Training."

CSB
Just before Desert Storm, I was in the Reserves doing public affairs stuff. During a parade downtown, we had a couple of static displays, Huey, OH-58d, so I was wandering around taking photos. Some guy comes up to me and starts railing on how we should hunt down Saddam and nuke him. I told him that he was a fine, patriotic U S American and I was an Army recruiter. I started to promise him that I could get him in to the first wave of soldiers to storm Baghdad but he remembered a previous appointment and ran away.
 
2011-11-28 12:01:18 PM

rickythepenguin: at 250MPH or whatever they were doing, that 12 or so miles was like, 4 seconds or whatever.



just measured. 8.2 miles. and not sure how fast they were going, but they were hauling ass. not like, sound barrier speed, but still moving fast as shiat.
 
2011-11-28 12:01:20 PM
This has to be the perfect troll thread. Ought to be fun...
 
2011-11-28 12:03:28 PM
The whole point of a big military is to show it off to the world. You don't keep it out of view until a conflict arises. You want it in everyone's face. Flyover's and air shows should be considered money well spent in the military.
 
2011-11-28 12:03:58 PM

TigerStar: Canada seems to be doing very well without much of a military. Why can't the USA?


Either you are very innocent, or very trollish.

Canada is no threat to anyone, competes against no one but the US (mostly), and has a big brother living right next door who will defend their markets and trade routes for them.
 
2011-11-28 12:04:20 PM

RodneyToady: If they need the training hours anyway, let 'em fly. I imagine this actually saves money on marketing/recruiting.


More or less that. Is the author really under the impression that these are special flights that would never happen otherwise? Because, c'mon, I know military people tend to not be the brightest in the world, but I'm pretty sure the USAF can figure out the whole "they want a flyover? OK, I guess we know where the next training flight is going" thing.
 
2011-11-28 12:04:32 PM

Harry Freakstorm: And the recruiter says "Sure. I can get you a guaranteed seat in the fighter plane of your choice. I need you to fill out this form though. In the MOS field, put 11B. That means you are going to go right to the front of fighter plane operator. You'll just have to complete some thing called One Station Unit Training."


Exactly.
 
2011-11-28 12:06:07 PM

Russ1642: The whole point of a big military is to show it off to the world. You don't keep it out of view until a conflict arises. You want it in everyone's face. Flyover's and air shows should be considered money well spent in the military.


And at least bowl game flyovers are relatively tasteful and fun, unlike the giant parades of missiles, tanks and goosestepping soldiers you get in other countries.
 
2011-11-28 12:06:21 PM
Philip Francis Queeg 2011-11-28 11:51:15 AM

Adolf Oliver Nipples: Philip Francis Queeg: Yes, It is imperative that our pilots get all the training they need in the crucial task of flying low over a stadium. Without that kind of focused, mission critical training would we have ever won the battles of Saddam Hussein Field or Mullah Omar Park?

1) Time on Target
2) Formation flying
3) Precision navigation

All of those are mission critical, and all of those are necessary for a typical fly-by.

Trolling indeed.

Farking utter bullshiat. Seriously all of those tasks could be simulated and trained in much better ways than a fly-by over a stadium.

Flowing low over a stadium in a tight formation has pretty much zero in common with modern combat. Unless they are practicing to be sitting ducks, there is little or no training value in a fly-by.

That's not trolling, that's just not accepting the bullshiat shoveled to justify wasting resources on these events.


Umm, no, as a matter of fact, it cant be simulated. Just like beating off isnt practicc for sex or watching film on how to run receiver routes, imagining how you would fly in combat doesnt cut it. You can make an argument that the training isnt worth the value, or that we shouldnt be training unless we are expecting/in war, but you cant make the argment that you can simulate training, thats borderline retarded. Good try though chump, you are an idiot. Also, dont talk about modern aviation combat, you dont know the difference between an HH-60 and an A-10 let alone how to train in said aircraft.
 
2011-11-28 12:06:30 PM

TigerStar: Canada seems to be doing very well without much of a military. Why can't the USA? The USA is #1 at making war and spending more money than it has.


To be fair, the reason nobody has seriously considered invading North America is because of the US military, and Canada has been able to coast on that for a half-century. Same-same with NATO. But, as usual, this is off-topic.
 
2011-11-28 12:07:27 PM

Harry Freakstorm: In the MOS field, put 11B


what's the joke? is that like, "has trouble walkign and breathing at the same time?"

the navy didn't do MOS. i would all the time get asked what my MOS was. i'd be like, "uhh......sonar." "uhhh....ok, but what is your MOS?" "....uhhh.....did i not say sonar?"
 
2011-11-28 12:09:30 PM

Marine1: The Third Man: veedeevadeevoodee: Old and busted: F-16 / F-18 flyovers
The new hotness: UAV flyovers

The new new hotness: Recon Drone flyovers

/+20 Tagged Assist!

[i28.lulzimg.com image 640x480]

Still on the hunt for prostitutes. Should be some outside the stadium.

/I thought Judge had lost his touch... until that episode.
//damn that was funny.


YES! I'm glad it's back
 
2011-11-28 12:09:52 PM
IF WE WERE SERIOUS ABOUT ANY COST SAVING WE"D START RIGHT THE FARK HERE

*Congressional Reform Act of 2011*
1. No Tenure / No Pension. A Congressman collects a salary while in office and receives no
pay when they are out of office.

2. Congress (past, present & future) participates in Social Security. All funds in the Congressional retirement fund move to the Social Security system immediately. All future funds flow into the Social Security system, and Congress participates with the American people. It may not be used for any other purpose.

3. Congress can purchase their own retirement plan, just as all Americans do.

4. Congress will no longer vote themselves a pay raise. Congressional pay will rise by the lower of CPI or 3%.

5. Congress loses their current health care system and participates in the same health care system as the American people.

6. Congress must equally abide by all laws they impose on the American people.

7. All contracts with past and present Congressmen are void effective 1/1/12. The American people did not make this contract with Congressmen. Congressmen made all these contracts for themselves. Serving in Congress is an honor, not a career. The Founding Fathers envisioned citizen legislators, so ours should serve their term(s), then go home and back to work.
Since 2008, every sitting Congressional Representatives - 100 Senate and 435 U. S. House of Representatives' personal wealth have increased 25%, sharing combined GRAND TOTAL: 2.04 BILLION DOLLARS (Kickbacks?).
 
2011-11-28 12:10:20 PM

rickythepenguin: what's the joke? is that like, "has trouble walkign and breathing at the same time?"


That IS the joke. 11B is infantry, but a civilian doesn't know that so the joke is that they're being suckered by the recruiter into being a grunt when they think they're going to fly.
 
2011-11-28 12:10:25 PM
Of course the waste of the flyby (oooh noooo more trolling with that blasphemy!) is dwarfed by the obscene waste of the millions of tax payer dollars per year spent to subsidize the football team below.
 
2011-11-28 12:11:05 PM
They fly jets over sporting events? Huh. How about that. I learned something today.

The last sporting event I went to or watched (besides hockey games, which are inside the Verizon Center for me, which is enclosed) was watching the Orioles play like 5 years ago, and they didn't have any jets flying overhead. That's a shame too, because baseball is horrendously farking boring to watch and so at least there would have been SOMETHING fun to watch.
 
2011-11-28 12:11:25 PM

beta_plus: Military spending and tax cuts are the only reason we have a deficit. Just get rid of them and America will never be in the red again.


Medicare and social security would like a word with you
 
2011-11-28 12:13:32 PM

Gdalescrboz: Philip Francis Queeg 2011-11-28 11:51:15 AM

Adolf Oliver Nipples: Philip Francis Queeg: Yes, It is imperative that our pilots get all the training they need in the crucial task of flying low over a stadium. Without that kind of focused, mission critical training would we have ever won the battles of Saddam Hussein Field or Mullah Omar Park?

1) Time on Target
2) Formation flying
3) Precision navigation

All of those are mission critical, and all of those are necessary for a typical fly-by.

Trolling indeed.

Farking utter bullshiat. Seriously all of those tasks could be simulated and trained in much better ways than a fly-by over a stadium.

Flowing low over a stadium in a tight formation has pretty much zero in common with modern combat. Unless they are practicing to be sitting ducks, there is little or no training value in a fly-by.

That's not trolling, that's just not accepting the bullshiat shoveled to justify wasting resources on these events.

Umm, no, as a matter of fact, it cant be simulated. Just like beating off isnt practicc for sex or watching film on how to run receiver routes, imagining how you would fly in combat doesnt cut it. You can make an argument that the training isnt worth the value, or that we shouldnt be training unless we are expecting/in war, but you cant make the argment that you can simulate training, thats borderline retarded. Good try though chump, you are an idiot. Also, dont talk about modern aviation combat, you dont know the difference between an HH-60 and an A-10 let alone how to train in said aircraft.


But he could wiki it, if you gave him enough time.
 
2011-11-28 12:14:09 PM
I'd be fine, hell in FAVOR of, military fly-overs....
IFF the organizers of the event paid AT LEAST twice what it costs to perform the fly-over (including all the worker pay required to organize, taxi, monitor, fuel, maintain, direct takeoff & landings etc for the fly-over).

If the government can make a profit and not impose the cost on tax-payers, then sure hire them to do your fly-over.
 
2011-11-28 12:14:11 PM
Am I the ONLY one who wished that they would go supersonic during the stadium flyover?
I am disappointed every time.

sigh
 
2011-11-28 12:15:50 PM

Adolf Oliver Nipples: TigerStar: Canada seems to be doing very well without much of a military. Why can't the USA? The USA is #1 at making war and spending more money than it has.

To be fair, the reason nobody has seriously considered invading North America is because of the US military, and Canada has been able to coast on that for a half-century. Same-same with NATO. But, as usual, this is off-topic.



I was just about to explain to that guy that Canada doesn't need to have a huge military because they're effectively subsidized by us, their big strong neighbor to the south, but I see you covered that already. So I guess I'll just add that Europe spends a lot less on the military than they would otherwise, for the same reason.
 
2011-11-28 12:15:55 PM

Adolf Oliver Nipples: Philip Francis Queeg: Flowing low over a stadium in a tight formation has pretty much zero in common with modern combat. Unless they are practicing to be sitting ducks, there is little or no training value in a fly-by.

And yet, as I said before, the fly-by is almost always a 5-minute part of a long training flight. I've been on many fly-bys, and I'm busy as hell for the rest of the flight.


Tell us then what the fly by part of the exercise did to increase your skills and readiness over and above the rest of the training mission? Could the time spent flying over the stadium have been spent in a more worthwhile way? On any mission in your long and heroic career did you ever think to yourself, "Wow, flying low over a football game really prepared me for this moment?"
 
2011-11-28 12:16:53 PM
As the former NCOIC of the 3544th US Air Force Recruiting Squadron (and a former aircrew member,) I'm getting a kick out of this.

// it was a pain in the ass to schedule flyovers
// but a great recruiting tool
 
2011-11-28 12:17:20 PM
What's that sound?

Jet noise, sir! The sound of freedom!
 
2011-11-28 12:17:52 PM
Patriotic flyovers are about as good for our country as having a TSA agent shove his hand up your shirt.
So is pro sports.
 
2011-11-28 12:18:50 PM
Flyovers are badass and free. Keep 'em coming.
 
2011-11-28 12:22:17 PM
2010 spending
just restate what I stated before.

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2011-11-28 12:22:17 PM

TopNotched: IF WE WERE SERIOUS ABOUT ANY COST SAVING WE"D START RIGHT THE FARK HERE

*Congressional Reform Act of 2011*
1. No Tenure / No Pension. A Congressman collects a salary while in office and receives no
pay when they are out of office.

2. Congress (past, present & future) participates in Social Security. All funds in the Congressional retirement fund move to the Social Security system immediately. All future funds flow into the Social Security system, and Congress participates with the American people. It may not be used for any other purpose.

3. Congress can purchase their own retirement plan, just as all Americans do.

4. Congress will no longer vote themselves a pay raise. Congressional pay will rise by the lower of CPI or 3%.

5. Congress loses their current health care system and participates in the same health care system as the American people.

6. Congress must equally abide by all laws they impose on the American people.

7. All contracts with past and present Congressmen are void effective 1/1/12. The American people did not make this contract with Congressmen. Congressmen made all these contracts for themselves. Serving in Congress is an honor, not a career. The Founding Fathers envisioned citizen legislators, so ours should serve their term(s), then go home and back to work.
Since 2008, every sitting Congressional Representatives - 100 Senate and 435 U. S. House of Representatives' personal wealth have increased 25%, sharing combined GRAND TOTAL: 2.04 BILLION DOLLARS (Kickbacks?).


Check your facts, please. (new window)

Yawn...
 
2011-11-28 12:22:28 PM

The Third Man: veedeevadeevoodee: Old and busted: F-16 / F-18 flyovers
The new hotness: UAV flyovers

The new new hotness: Recon Drone flyovers

/+20 Tagged Assist!


New hotness: Anti-aircraft installations at all major sporting arenas.
 
2011-11-28 12:22:58 PM
Just wanted to point out that this "sound of freedom" that everyone is hearing- is for everyone that the USA is occupying and liberating.

Freedom? I do not think this word means what you think it means...
 
2011-11-28 12:23:55 PM
Done in one. They need to fly anyway, so it's basically free recruiting advertisement.
 
2011-11-28 12:26:30 PM
priapus54
As the former NCOIC of the 3544th US Air Force Recruiting Squadron (and a former aircrew member,) I'm getting a kick out of this.

// it was a pain in the ass to schedule flyovers
// but a great recruiting tool


Did you hit up the Reserves and National Guard? They were always happy to do a training mission if the event fell on their training weekend.

Got a couple of Shiathooks to do a flyover once. They flew low enough to set off car alarms. Three leaky bastards in a V formation. Their training mission for the day had the three take off, go different routes to the event, meet up, buzz the crowd, split off and land navigate back home.
 
2011-11-28 12:26:56 PM

basemetal: How about helicopter flyovers, is that okay? Link (new window)


Yeah, what the fark is up with that? I went to a Packer (GO PACK!) game last week against Tampa and we got our cameras out to shoot the fly-by, cause if your not ready you'll miss em, and here comes these 2 choppers putting by at about 50 mph...........what a let down. The pack kicked ass anyway so it was all good.
.
GO PACK GO!
 
2011-11-28 12:27:07 PM

Philip Francis Queeg: Tell us then what the fly by part of the exercise did to increase your skills and readiness over and above the rest of the training mission? Could the time spent flying over the stadium have been spent in a more worthwhile way? On any mission in your long and heroic career did you ever think to yourself, "Wow, flying low over a football game really prepared me for this moment?"


So you've never heard the terms "bomb run" or "air drop?"

/why am I feeding him?
 
2011-11-28 12:28:51 PM

A_Listless_Wanderer: So you've never heard the terms "bomb run" or "air drop?"

/why am I feeding him?



Sometimes it's hard not to feed a troll. Best just to insult them, occasionally poke them to make sure their idiocy is out for all to see, etc.
 
2011-11-28 12:33:24 PM

Philip Francis Queeg: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Philip Francis Queeg: Flowing low over a stadium in a tight formation has pretty much zero in common with modern combat. Unless they are practicing to be sitting ducks, there is little or no training value in a fly-by.

And yet, as I said before, the fly-by is almost always a 5-minute part of a long training flight. I've been on many fly-bys, and I'm busy as hell for the rest of the flight.

Tell us then what the fly by part of the exercise did to increase your skills and readiness over and above the rest of the training mission? Could the time spent flying over the stadium have been spent in a more worthwhile way? On any mission in your long and heroic career did you ever think to yourself, "Wow, flying low over a football game really prepared me for this moment?"


You are trying to hard(whether it is trolling, or trying make a pointless point), Now I am just kind of feeling sad for you.
 
2011-11-28 12:33:32 PM

A_Listless_Wanderer: Philip Francis Queeg: Tell us then what the fly by part of the exercise did to increase your skills and readiness over and above the rest of the training mission? Could the time spent flying over the stadium have been spent in a more worthwhile way? On any mission in your long and heroic career did you ever think to yourself, "Wow, flying low over a football game really prepared me for this moment?"

So you've never heard the terms "bomb run" or "air drop?"

/why am I feeding him?


Yes, I have heard of them.

Do you honestly believe that the mission profile of a stadium fly by in any way resembles how bombing missions are carried out in modern combat? Do you really think that when we go to bomb a target in Afghanistan that we send a couple of F-18 directly over the target in straight line flight, wing tip to wing tip, at low speeds and low altitude?

People really need to think a bit more than just saying "Oooooh, that was kooool!"
 
2011-11-28 12:33:37 PM

Gdalescrboz: Philip Francis Queeg 2011-11-28 11:51:15 AM

Adolf Oliver Nipples: Philip Francis Queeg: Yes, It is imperative that our pilots get all the training they need in the crucial task of flying low over a stadium. Without that kind of focused, mission critical training would we have ever won the battles of Saddam Hussein Field or Mullah Omar Park?

1) Time on Target
2) Formation flying
3) Precision navigation

All of those are mission critical, and all of those are necessary for a typical fly-by.

Trolling indeed.

Farking utter bullshiat. Seriously all of those tasks could be simulated and trained in much better ways than a fly-by over a stadium.

Flowing low over a stadium in a tight formation has pretty much zero in common with modern combat. Unless they are practicing to be sitting ducks, there is little or no training value in a fly-by.

That's not trolling, that's just not accepting the bullshiat shoveled to justify wasting resources on these events.

Umm, no, as a matter of fact, it cant be simulated. Just like beating off isnt practicc for sex or watching film on how to run receiver routes, imagining how you would fly in combat doesnt cut it. You can make an argument that the training isnt worth the value, or that we shouldnt be training unless we are expecting/in war, but you cant make the argment that you can simulate training, thats borderline retarded. Good try though chump, you are an idiot. Also, dont talk about modern aviation combat, you dont know the difference between an HH-60 and an A-10 let alone how to train in said aircraft.


I see two reasonable alternatives. 1) Arm the folks in the stadium and encourage them to shoot at the flyby. The stadium can even sell weapons and make a profit while tax dollars flow back to the military. Why take training measures only half way? 2) Use only stealth aircraft the first few times and then just simulate the flyby but tell folks it was done. 100% savings yet the public, who will apparently believe anything leaves satisfied.
 
2011-11-28 12:34:38 PM
I wish people would talk about all government costs in percentage points and not dollars.

Instead of saying, 'X wastes Y MILLIONS of dollars on Z!' it should be, 'X wastes Y% of all government spending on Z'. It would really help give perspective to these discussions.

Isn't military spending something like 20-30% of the federal budget?
And all of the fly-bys, combined, I don't know, it can't be more than 1% of the military budget. I can't imagine it being anywhere near that much. Something like 0.001% is more likely.

This is akin to arguing that someone who makes 50k a year, but spends 60k a year needs to stop wasteful water spending spending because they don't turn off the faucet while brushing their teeth. While you might be correct, that's so low on the totem pole that it's not worth mentioning until you address lots and lots of other things first. Like why you have two new cars, a 2k mortgage, use credit cards, and go out to dinner once a week.
 
2011-11-28 12:37:06 PM

Petit_Merdeux: We should just ground all our jets until there is an actual military threat.


You mean like we did on 911 when the air force "calvary" rode to the rescue in the nick of time.

Oh wait ...

The fark ups only had to get it right one time and they couldn't even manage that.

Lamest military ever.
 
2011-11-28 12:39:36 PM

Russ1642: The whole point of a big military is to show it off to the world. You don't keep it out of view until a conflict arises. You want it in everyone's face. Flyover's and air shows should be considered money well spent in the military.


i.dailymail.co.uk
Exactly.
 
2011-11-28 12:39:55 PM

Fark_Guy_Rob: I wish people would talk about all government costs in percentage points and not dollars.

Instead of saying, 'X wastes Y MILLIONS of dollars on Z!' it should be, 'X wastes Y% of all government spending on Z'. It would really help give perspective to these discussions.

Isn't military spending something like 20-30% of the federal budget?
And all of the fly-bys, combined, I don't know, it can't be more than 1% of the military budget. I can't imagine it being anywhere near that much. Something like 0.001% is more likely.

This is akin to arguing that someone who makes 50k a year, but spends 60k a year needs to stop wasteful water spending spending because they don't turn off the faucet while brushing their teeth. While you might be correct, that's so low on the totem pole that it's not worth mentioning until you address lots and lots of other things first. Like why you have two new cars, a 2k mortgage, use credit cards, and go out to dinner once a week.


LOGIC?? in a political thread?
My favorite LIE with numbers is stating how much will be saved/cut over 10 years. EXCUSE ME! when did we start that lie?

sigh
 
2011-11-28 12:41:38 PM

DON.MAC: Maybe sub-cheap-ass-mitter can explain what cost to benefit ratio is for an Irish friend who was so impressed with what she saw by the USAF that she joined the UK Intelligence wing and saved a few of their Yankee and Southern butts.


Where the hell was she saving Yankee and Southern butts? Maybe they don't even need to be there.
 
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