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(Some Biased Guy) Interesting "Alcohol's disruptive effects are mostly in our heads" That's sort of the point   (overcomingbias.com) divider line 32
More: Interesting, drug legalization, reaction times, double-blind, sexual promiscuity, social rules, self control, Andean, placebos  
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3823 clicks; posted to Geek » on 27 Nov 2011 at 3:48 PM   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»   |    Get this fabulous T-Shirt and impress the methane out of your friends! shirt it!



32 Comments   (+0 »)
   
 
shinysign
2011-11-27 12:33:58 PM
It's a fascinating idea, with some conclusions that go against all common sense.

Still I think its interesting, but if they really want to study the effects of placebo alcohol, they should only test people who have never had a drink in their lives, as those who have been drunk before are probably just acting out drunken behavior from their experience.

The idea that alcohol is like green tea and has no effect whatsoever on the body or mind is absolutely ridiculous. I wish this article had been tempered with some truth because the idea that people associate or use a drink of alcohol as an excuse to do certain social things is the interesting part of the article. The writer needs to take a few shots of corn whiskey and then try to write the article and see what comes out.
 
Fear_and_Loathing [TotalFark]
2011-11-27 12:46:21 PM
It was actually an interesting read. Food for thought and all. I am not sure I agree, but shall consider the points handed out. Well some of them.
 
miss diminutive
2011-11-27 01:39:16 PM
shinysign: Still I think its interesting, but if they really want to study the effects of placebo alcohol, they should only test people who have never had a drink in their lives, as those who have been drunk before are probably just acting out drunken behavior from their experience.

They need to start secretly switching in non-alcoholic kegs into frat/sorority parties and watch the results.
 
Ed Finnerty [TotalFark]
2011-11-27 02:42:43 PM
From the comments: Which drugs are associated with taking unsourced "studies" seriously?
 
Barakku
2011-11-27 04:02:06 PM
shinysign: It's a fascinating idea, with some conclusions that go against all common sense.

Still I think its interesting, but if they really want to study the effects of placebo alcohol, they should only test people who have never had a drink in their lives, as those who have been drunk before are probably just acting out drunken behavior from their experience.

The idea that alcohol is like green tea and has no effect whatsoever on the body or mind is absolutely ridiculous. I wish this article had been tempered with some truth because the idea that people associate or use a drink of alcohol as an excuse to do certain social things is the interesting part of the article. The writer needs to take a few shots of corn whiskey and then try to write the article and see what comes out.

They explicitly mention the effects alcohol has been confirmed to have on the mind: slow reaction times, reduced short term memory...it's in the third paragraph of the article. Did you even read it?
 
taurusowner
2011-11-27 04:18:44 PM
shinysign: The idea that alcohol is like green tea and has no effect whatsoever on the body or mind is absolutely ridiculous. I wish this article had been tempered with some truth because the idea that people associate or use a drink of alcohol as an excuse to do certain social things is the interesting part of the article. The writer needs to take a few shots of corn whiskey and then try to write the article and see what comes out.

That's not what the article is saying at all. It is speaking specifically to the behavioral changes that accompany alcohol use, and how the physical changes to the mind seem to have very little to do with the subsequent actions of the person.
miss diminutive was right. Give some non-alcoholic beer to some teens and see if their party dies out. It won't because most of them are acting the way they are based on how they think they are expected to act, not because the alcohol is actually influencing their behavior. Alcohol affects how your body receives sensory input and how fast that input is processed. What you do with that in the end is still largely a choice.
 
minuslars
2011-11-27 04:29:32 PM
A friend in a fraternity-not-a-frat once told me he initiated a bunch of freshman by feeding them O'Douls in pitchers without their knowledge. Three pitchers in the kids swore they were feeling the alcohol.

In adults perhaps it's largely personality dependent. I don't feel like I act any different when I get drunk than I'm sober. I don't get angry, I don't get happy, I don't pick fights, I don't grow balls and start talking to girls, nor do I get the urge to do stupid shiat. In fact I sort of just want to go to sleep... much like when I'm sober...
 
John Dewey [TotalFark]
2011-11-27 04:36:22 PM
Wait, wait, wait...so you're saying something that is a depressant acts as a depressant? Subby needs to tell me to sit down and have a drink before dropping such a profound idea on me.
 
StoPPeRmobile
2011-11-27 05:00:29 PM
I'll drink to that.
 
dopeydwarf [TotalFark]
2011-11-27 05:16:23 PM
StoPPeRmobile: I'll drink to that.

Cheers.
 
joe714
2011-11-27 05:28:40 PM
minuslars: A friend in a fraternity-not-a-frat once told me he initiated a bunch of freshman by feeding them O'Douls in pitchers without their knowledge. Three pitchers in the kids swore they were feeling the alcohol.

O'Douls is still something like 0.5% ABV. You're probably going to die of hyperhydration before the alcohol poisoning, but drink enough of it in a hurry and you're still going to get somewhat intoxicated. If someone's never had any significant quantity of alcohol before, they may legitimately feel something after drinking several pints of it.
 
Torqueknot
2011-11-27 05:32:37 PM
minuslars: A friend in a fraternity-not-a-frat once told me he initiated a bunch of freshman by feeding them O'Douls in pitchers without their knowledge. Three pitchers in the kids swore they were feeling the alcohol.

In adults perhaps it's largely personality dependent. I don't feel like I act any different when I get drunk than I'm sober. I don't get angry, I don't get happy, I don't pick fights, I don't grow balls and start talking to girls, nor do I get the urge to do stupid shiat. In fact I sort of just want to go to sleep... much like when I'm sober...

I'm gunna have to go with this. To much alcohol just makes me sleepy. The worst I do is find myself saying things I wouldn't norrmaly. But then I have never believed alcohol will make me do anything in particular except slow me down and relax me.

As for those frat kids and the three pitchers, was that three pitchers each? 'cus O'douls does have a little alcohol in it and three pitchers could be the equivlant of say a pint or two. Enough to feel, but not enough to get you drunk.
 
Cerebral Knievel
2011-11-27 05:45:00 PM
O'douls is closer to 0.2% but at that point it's immaterial at this point any ways. and it must actually be brewed to that strength for it to be still considered beer, and not Beer flavored soda pop which most regulatory agencies consider it any ways. brew it really low and dilute the hell out of it. it's actually pretty tricky to do and then all the hoops you gotta jump through for label approval is insane.

but once again... all that aint the point of the article or the discussion.

My personal observation about the effects of alcohol is that it accentuates the personality of the consumer. As in, most angry, belligerent drunks I come across tend to be generally angry and belligerent to begin with, when they get the hooch in them, it just makes it worse.
 
watson.t.hamster
2011-11-27 05:45:06 PM
minuslars: A friend in a fraternity-not-a-frat once told me he initiated a bunch of freshman by feeding them O'Douls in pitchers without their knowledge. Three pitchers in the kids swore they were feeling the alcohol.

In adults perhaps it's largely personality dependent. I don't feel like I act any different when I get drunk than I'm sober. I don't get angry, I don't get happy, I don't pick fights, I don't grow balls and start talking to girls, nor do I get the urge to do stupid shiat. In fact I sort of just want to go to sleep... much like when I'm sober...

I always wondered who actually bought non-alcoholic beer.
 
Cerebral Knievel
2011-11-27 05:51:23 PM
minuslars: A friend in a fraternity-not-a-frat once told me he initiated a bunch of freshman by feeding them O'Douls in pitchers without their knowledge. Three pitchers in the kids swore they were feeling the alcohol.

In adults perhaps it's largely personality dependent. I don't feel like I act any different when I get drunk than I'm sober. I don't get angry, I don't get happy, I don't pick fights, I don't grow balls and start talking to girls, nor do I get the urge to do stupid shiat. In fact I sort of just want to go to sleep... much like when I'm sober...

which also goes towards my observation.

I usually retire to my work shop with a six pack and make stuff.

I must state my bias.. I make beer for a living.
 
TheWizard
2011-11-27 06:18:18 PM
Non alcholic beer wouldn't work. The alcohol helps bring forth a behavior, but the specifc behavior that comes out is due to cultural influence and not a specific symptom of intoxication.

So NA beer wouldn't work because there wouldn't be the behavior release trigger.
 
Cerebral Knievel
2011-11-27 06:46:41 PM
TheWizard: Non alcholic beer wouldn't work. The alcohol helps bring forth a behavior, but the specifc behavior that comes out is due to cultural influence and not a specific symptom of intoxication.

So NA beer wouldn't work because there wouldn't be the behavior release trigger.

it most certainly does work with the placebo effect. Ive personally witness in action.. placebo effect, paired with the drive towards social acceptance is a very powerful motivator.

feed them NA beer, have them smoke cat nip, have them eat shiataki mushrooms, when they are expecting them to get farked up, and reinforcing to them that they are farked up, and they will actually get farked up.
more to the point, you are reassuring them that what they are feeling is okay, because they are farked up, and they'll start to believe it, and release their own natural inhibitions because they now have an excuse they can use to explain away their normally out of character behavior to themselves and others.
 
Mister Peejay
2011-11-27 07:00:28 PM
Dude, you know that vodka I sold you?
 
mantidor
2011-11-27 08:29:57 PM
I thought this was known, for years.

It doesn't mean all these drugs, alcohol included, don't affect your brain, (and thus your behavior) in some way, specially if the quantities go up, a few drinks don't make much difference physically, but a bottle of vodka is something else. Thinking you and your personality are detached from your brain is kind of naive.

The best analogy I've found is that getting drunk is a bit like dreaming, it's still you, but something different makes you do things you just wouldn't do in normal life.
 
entropic_existence
2011-11-27 08:30:52 PM
TheWizard: Non alcholic beer wouldn't work. The alcohol helps bring forth a behavior, but the specifc behavior that comes out is due to cultural influence and not a specific symptom of intoxication.

So NA beer wouldn't work because there wouldn't be the behavior release trigger.

The studies mentioned in the article are specifically double-blind placebo experiments. So that is exactly what they are doing, giving non-alcoholic beer to people and watching them start to act "drunk."

But a point the article seems to miss is that while the "lowered inhibitions" etc are really just cultural placebo effects alcohol does dull the brain in general. Impairment of your cognitive abilities means impaired judgement. If you aren't quite thinking as quickly as you usually do you may make some stupid choices and that isn't placebo/cultural effects. It's simple neurochemistry.
 
Smackledorfer
2011-11-27 11:43:19 PM
joe714: minuslars: A friend in a fraternity-not-a-frat once told me he initiated a bunch of freshman by feeding them O'Douls in pitchers without their knowledge. Three pitchers in the kids swore they were feeling the alcohol.

O'Douls is still something like 0.5% ABV. You're probably going to die of hyperhydration before the alcohol poisoning, but drink enough of it in a hurry and you're still going to get somewhat intoxicated. If someone's never had any significant quantity of alcohol before, they may legitimately feel something after drinking several pints of it.

My first chugged forty hit me hard.
 
Smackledorfer
2011-11-27 11:52:10 PM
Cerebral Knievel: TheWizard: Non alcholic beer wouldn't work. The alcohol helps bring forth a behavior, but the specifc behavior that comes out is due to cultural influence and not a specific symptom of intoxication.

So NA beer wouldn't work because there wouldn't be the behavior release trigger.

it most certainly does work with the placebo effect. Ive personally witness in action.. placebo effect, paired with the drive towards social acceptance is a very powerful motivator.

feed them NA beer, have them smoke cat nip, have them eat shiataki mushrooms, when they are expecting them to get farked up, and reinforcing to them that they are farked up, and they will actually get farked up.
more to the point, you are reassuring them that what they are feeling is okay, because they are farked up, and they'll start to believe it, and release their own natural inhibitions because they now have an excuse they can use to explain away their normally out of character behavior to themselves and others.

I'd be very surprised if there wasn't an upper limit to the placebo effect, especially when it comes to a hallucinogen. Additionally, the first time I dropped acid I had no idea what would happen or the duration, so playing off the primary effects of drugs as placebo seems rather silly.

Trick someone into thinking they've had a few beers and watching them let loose at a party is a far cry from your example.

Further, slip someone two or three times as much alcohol as they think they are drinking and I would bet my life savings there would be a noticeable increase in their actions. If so much of getting drunk was placebo we would expect to see them act like they drank what they thought they drank. Unless of course the depressant effect would be enough cue to spur on the placebo effect.

/happy drunk. I never understood why the angry drunks bother to drink.
 
fusillade762
2011-11-27 11:57:55 PM
Ed Finnerty: From the comments: Which drugs are associated with taking unsourced "studies" seriously?

Because fark you, that's why, you stupid ugly coont. You wanna fight aboutit?
 
fusillade762
2011-11-28 12:00:42 AM
I seem to recall reading a study they did where they injected people in different groups with alcohol and THC. They then asked them which they thought they had been given, but no one could tell without the cues that come from how they're typically consumed.

Though I could have just imagined that in my stoned, drunken haze.
 
the_geek
2011-11-28 02:17:53 AM
minuslars: In adults perhaps it's largely personality dependent. I don't feel like I act any different when I get drunk than I'm sober. I don't get angry, I don't get happy, I don't pick fights, I don't grow balls and start talking to girls, nor do I get the urge to do stupid shiat. In fact I sort of just want to go to sleep... much like when I'm sober...

Alcohol is a depressant, so feeling sleepy is the natural reaction. The point of the article is that the people who get angry/happy/slutty when they drink alcohol wanted to be angry/happy/slutty anyways and the alcohol is just an excuse for their behavior.
 
try fect taa daa
2011-11-28 02:39:14 AM
I was an angry drunk so i quit drinking completely. I'm now an angry sober.
 
The sound of one hand clapping
2011-11-28 02:53:26 AM
I just don't buy it that alcohol doesn't affect behaviour to some degree.

I'm usually quite quiet at parties when sober. I'll talk to people I know and thats about it. Give me a couple of drinks (I'm a lightweight) and I'll start wandering around chatting to everyone. But if I stop drinking again, after an hour I start to quieten down again. I know all this from people's observations of me. So surely if it was all placebo, once I'd started drinking I'd just let loose completely and carry on that way until the end of the party, all the while excusing myself with 'I'm so wasted!'.

I don't choose to let loose, the alcohol just lowers my inhibitions to the point where it just happens.
 
LordOfThePings
2011-11-28 03:29:54 AM
Your blog s... actually that's pretty cool.
 
Happy Hours [TotalFark]
2011-11-28 03:46:55 AM
the_geek: minuslars: In adults perhaps it's largely personality dependent. I don't feel like I act any different when I get drunk than I'm sober. I don't get angry, I don't get happy, I don't pick fights, I don't grow balls and start talking to girls, nor do I get the urge to do stupid shiat. In fact I sort of just want to go to sleep... much like when I'm sober...

Alcohol is a depressant, so feeling sleepy is the natural reaction. The point of the article is that the people who get angry/happy/slutty when they drink alcohol wanted to be angry/happy/slutty anyways and the alcohol is just an excuse for their behavior.

It is a depressant, but it also depresses inhibitions. Yes, drink enough and you'll get sleepy, but based on my own personal experience it can initially make it easier to stay up. I know that's only anecdotal, but I know others who have reported the same thing. I wish it made me sleepy. I've got 2 beers in the 'fridge right now. I'm somewhat tired but I know if I drank them I'd be wide awake and wanting a few more. Too bad the liquor stores are closed right now.

At times I can be angry and other times I can be happy and sometimes even "slutty" even when sober, but alcohol can amplify those feelings and I can go from happy to angry on a dime under the right circumstances. Even if I'm drunk though I can't use alcohol as an "excuse". It may help explain my emotions, but it doesn't excuse them.

Drugs (including alcohol) do have real effects on mood and they can often cloud judgement and mood and judgement (or lack thereof) can influence behavior.

Well, you did say that was "the point of the article". You didn't say that's what you believed. I believe the article is full of shiat.
 
Shrinkwrap
2011-11-28 04:14:38 AM
Smackledorfer: Cerebral Knievel: TheWizard: Non alcholic beer wouldn't work. The alcohol helps bring forth a behavior, but the specifc behavior that comes out is due to cultural influence and not a specific symptom of intoxication.

So NA beer wouldn't work because there wouldn't be the behavior release trigger.

it most certainly does work with the placebo effect. Ive personally witness in action.. placebo effect, paired with the drive towards social acceptance is a very powerful motivator.

feed them NA beer, have them smoke cat nip, have them eat shiataki mushrooms, when they are expecting them to get farked up, and reinforcing to them that they are farked up, and they will actually get farked up.
more to the point, you are reassuring them that what they are feeling is okay, because they are farked up, and they'll start to believe it, and release their own natural inhibitions because they now have an excuse they can use to explain away their normally out of character behavior to themselves and others.

I'd be very surprised if there wasn't an upper limit to the placebo effect, especially when it comes to a hallucinogen. Additionally, the first time I dropped acid I had no idea what would happen or the duration, so playing off the primary effects of drugs as placebo seems rather silly.

Trick someone into thinking they've had a few beers and watching them let loose at a party is a far cry from your example.

Further, slip someone two or three times as much alcohol as they think they are drinking and I would bet my life savings there would be a noticeable increase in their actions. If so much of getting drunk was placebo we would expect to see them act like they drank what they thought they drank. Unless of course the depressant effect would be enough cue to spur on the placebo effect.

/happy drunk. I never understood why the angry drunks bother to drink.

There's an entertaining middle part before the anger sets in.
 
sidcart42
2011-11-28 06:02:34 AM
If you don't want to read the farking article:

Alcohol has tangible effects, but the random behaviors people engage in are specific to the individuals and their own inhibitions.

By this logic, College is a placebo for finding a major area of study.

Or, in the author's case, drinking a lot and not paying attention to much.
 
Precision Boobery
2011-11-28 09:04:43 AM
Cerebral Knievel:
feed them NA beer, have them smoke cat nip, have them eat shiataki mushrooms,

You forgot notebook paper as acid. Just keep the cap gun away from them!

farkin' shiat is right, man
 
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