Yeah, yeah. They all turn into pacifists after inventing the Weapon of Doom. Take it up with Alfred Nobel, Robert Oppenheimer, and Chris Knight when you meet them in Hell, deathmonger.

gerrymander: Yeah, yeah. They all turn into pacifists after inventing the Weapon of Doom. Take it up with Alfred Nobel, Robert Oppenheimer, and Chris Knight when you meet them in Hell, deathmonger.

Dude! It's a "food product!"

gerrymander: Yeah, yeah. They all turn into pacifists after inventing the Weapon of Doom. Take it up with Alfred Nobel, Robert Oppenheimer, and Chris Knight when you meet them in Hell, deathmonger.

You forgot Ron Popeil.

pizza + pepper spray = 2 veggies

yum, free lunch

Ed Finnerty: gerrymander: Yeah, yeah. They all turn into pacifists after inventing the Weapon of Doom. Take it up with Alfred Nobel, Robert Oppenheimer, and Chris Knight when you meet them in Hell, deathmonger.

You forgot Ron Popeil.

The pocket fisherman is dangerous?

I will just reiterate from an earlier pepper spray thread.

Having worked security, can I just say, there has NEVER been a situation where the use of chemicals or stun guns has made things LESS confrontational.

You use chemical dispersement when folks are already confrontational. When you want a pain response to short circuit anger. When you want folks to flee or be so concerned about the stinging sensation that they lose interest in putting a boot to you.

The argument that it would be less dangerous is asinine. Yes, locked hands makes getting folks up difficult. No one ever said being a cop or doing security was supposed to be easy. The idea that it would injure them less? From a professional standpoint, is ludicrous. Chemical agents carry risks--allergic reactions, folks with breathing issues like asthma, and more--and you don't just spray willy nilly.

We were offered chemicals when I was bouncing. We got trained with them, and guess what? We all refused. The chance of accidentally dosing someone on the edge of a conflict was just too high. Plus, there's the chance of folks taking said agents from you, and using it on you. That's the chance of using any weapon.

It is counter to any procedural doctrine to gas non-violent protestors. You gas when you want to disperse folks that you fear will overrun your position. You gas when you want to clear out folks who are violent or potentially violent. You gas to prevent further violence.

Not on non-violent protestors.

The sad fact is: if you are presented with folks who link arms and go slack, then you have to untangle them if you want to disperse them. It is a pain in tochis, and this guy was looking for a shortcut, not looking out for anyone's safety. Certainly not even his own team, because that escalation could have turned the crowd ugly. The use of chemical agents in this case, is counter to any doctrine for crowd control in peaceful protests.

It runs counter. They used chemical agents in the face of peaceful protestors, and that is not what chemical agents are for. Not in the least. The use of chemical agents in this case flies in the face of any procedural doctrine for irritants use. Tear gas, pepper spray, other agents like them, are used to disperse folks that may overrun your position. That you want to keep off balance when you send in police or troops to clear out violent offenders. The disorientation and irritants are to make folks think twice about becoming MOAR violent. To create a flight response as opposed to further opposition. To make them leave as opposed to beating you down, or shooting.

Using irritants on peaceful protestors only gets folks riled. It only escalates a situation, and only increases the chance of violence. If you are claiming that it is supposed to be used to gain compliance or that the use on peaceful protestors is supposed to create a less confrontational environment, then you misunderstand the doctrine that governs the use of such agents.

But but but but, the students refused to move! When you're defenseless with nothing but riot gear, pepper spray, firearms, and body armor, how are you possibly supposed to defend yourself against twenty-year olds armed to the teeth with backpacks and jackets that take the threatening stance of sitting down and not moving!

randomjsa: The police were outnumbered at least 10 to 1 and completely surrounded. The edited video that has created the controversy shows nothing that led up to the pepper spraying and it's time that everyone admitted that.

Yes, they edited out the part where the cops actually had something to be afraid of. Oh wait, that part didn't exist.

These kids aren't farking wizards. The chanting doesn't put up magical barriers, as Lt Pike so aptly demonstrated when he so easily stepped over the obstructing kids prior to initiating chemical warfare on their dumb asses. They could have easily taken whoever they had already arrested out with out causing this whole clusterfark.

Speaking of which, why were they arresting people? It would've been a whole lot more effective, from a crowd control viewpoint and a fiscal viewpoint, to write tickets for everybody there until people left. But no, instead of just being dicks, they had to be badasses too.

randomjsa: The police, after repeatedly warning the group of seated students that they would be pepper sprayed if they did not stop blocking the way, made good on their threat by pepper spraying students.

You're missing the point, as usual.

Suppose a group of women was protesting the high price of baby formula, and was ordered to disperse by the police, but refused. The cops then started firing into the crowd.

A bit of an overreaction, yes? Even though the protestors were ordered to disperse and refused, the cops went a bit far, right?

That's the point. The cops OVERREACTED - in fact, they violated their own protocols.

But this means little to neofascists like you

.randomjsa: The police were outnumbered at least 10 to 1 and completely surrounded.

By people sitting on the ground and not doing anything.

You are such a fkn tool.

sendtodave: randomjsa: The police, after repeatedly warning the group of seated students that they would be pepper sprayed if they did not stop blocking the way, made good on their threat by pepper spraying students.

... Which is an inappropriate and improper use of chemical agents. You tool.

Pretty much.

There IS a use for these agents. If the crowd was violent and moving in on the officers, then chemical dispersement would have been appropriate. If the crowd was violent with one another, then it would have been appropriate. If the crowd had been armed, and moving in, then it would have been appropriate. If the crowd was advancing on unarmed folks with intent to harm, then it would have been appropriate. If the folks were violent and being arrested, and the officers didn't want to shoot them, then it would have been appropriate.

Spraying unarmed and simply non-responsive targets was an act of punishment, not law enforcement. And the thing is: our justice system doesn't work that way. You want that sort of thing? Try some totalitarian regime and live there. I hear the former Soviet states are good for that, maybe our beamish boy should look there...

Also, in review, 10 points for randomjsa, master fishertroll. He caught quite a few fishies on that hook.

Mrbogey: JAYoung: But we are now in an era when dissent must be repressed:

"Dissent" and "peacefully" sure have had a lot of mission creep lately into space formerly occupied with words like "riot".

Because you're not allowed to riot it doesn't mean your rights are in danger. Next time protest in observance of the law and go home safely. It's not that hard.

This was not a riot. This was not even remotely close to a riot. Good god. Did it comply with all local ordinances? Maybe not. But it was not a farking riot.

bulldg4life: What nobody talks about is the 5 minutes right before the video starts where the kids are throwing rocks and punching the cops in the face. Those dumbass college students knew the video would make the cops look bad, so they all coordinated a flash mob sit in thing to start 10 seconds before that one guy started recording.

Nobody talks about how all the students sat down in unison after attacking the cops for 20 minutes. It's the part that everyone here is missing.

I know...why don't they show the part where the students overpowered the cops and waterboarded them for 24 hours straight?

Damn librul media