Do you have adblock enabled?
 
If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(NPR)   To get 55 mpg you'll have to give up power windows, heated seats, DVD entertainment, and AC that could freeze the Sahara. But on your deathbed you will receive total consciousness   ( npr.org) divider line
    More: Interesting, gasoline engines, gas engines, internal-combustion engines, Corporate Average Fuel Economy, fuel efficient, air conditionings, Engine tuning, electric cars  
•       •       •

10838 clicks; posted to Main » on 23 Nov 2011 at 8:54 PM (5 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



216 Comments     (+0 »)
 
 
2011-11-23 08:56:16 PM  
Good news: We will elect someone to rip out these "regulations" before they have to take effect.
 
2011-11-23 08:57:40 PM  
3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2011-11-23 08:58:48 PM  
Well thats something to ponder . Now anyone can achieve total consciousness ,not just those holier than thou Trustafanarians .
 
2011-11-23 08:59:01 PM  
My Dodge Ram already gets better than 5.5mpg
 
2011-11-23 08:59:03 PM  
Make a Toyota pickup with a straight front axle, a Turbo diesel, and nothing else and I'll buy three.
 
2011-11-23 08:59:19 PM  
Will the 55MPG BoringMobile at least come with a free frogurt?
 
2011-11-23 09:00:05 PM  
So I can be fully awake and aware when I die?
 
2011-11-23 09:01:01 PM  

GoodyearPimp: Good news: We will elect someone to rip out these "regulations" before they have to take effect.


THIS.

It'd also help to get rid of the regulations that require the smaller cars. Unlike the rest of the world, the US is built for large, high-cylinder count cars/vans/trucks. Not blingy 4bangers, hippie hybrids, or glorified golfcarts.
 
2011-11-23 09:02:08 PM  
Or you could drive a small diesel car.
 
2011-11-23 09:02:44 PM  
I have no power windows, heated seats, or DVD. Man up, you sissies.
 
2011-11-23 09:03:08 PM  
But if they don't sell a dvd system, heated seats, with onstar, dual climate control and 40 airbags, how will they sell a basic car starting in the mid 25's?
 
2011-11-23 09:03:13 PM  
I get 55mpg in my diesel now. With the ac full blast. heated seats too. Nav plays DVDs as well. Its as big as a suv, its a wagon.. So what's the problem?
 
2011-11-23 09:04:54 PM  
Meh, my 88 Chevy pickup has none of that, hell, I consider the hydraulic clutch a luxury.
 
2011-11-23 09:04:56 PM  
my car has none of those luxuries, and it still only gets 10-14mpg.
 
2011-11-23 09:05:21 PM  
www.blessthisstuff.com

Meh, keep your econobox... There are better ways to get 55mpg.
 
2011-11-23 09:06:12 PM  
Will I still be able to drive with my knee, eating a burger and my cell phone wedged between my ear and shoulder? If so, this is all ok with me.
 
2011-11-23 09:06:25 PM  

Yoeman: Meh, my 88 Chevy pickup has none of that, hell, I consider the hydraulic clutch a luxury.


youve got power steering in that thing, right? now thats a luxury.
 
2011-11-23 09:06:29 PM  

Stoutpants: Or you could drive a small diesel car.


Exactly, though admittedly to get 50mpg you need a manual since the auto usually gets in the 40's. Had a VW TDI Golf for ~180k miles that I converted to run on WVO but switched to a LEAF (still have my diesel Jeep for long hauls). Diesel FTW
 
2011-11-23 09:06:33 PM  
few people realize that 20 years ago we had little econo boxes that got 40+mpg

How could this be you ask? The car was literally an engine, 4 wheels, and a seat. Yeah it wasn't as safe as modern cars, but it was also 1000lbs lighter to start with.

Everyone seems so shocked when even with modern metallurgy, carbon fiber, aerodynamics, direct injection, we are still getting slightly above 30 mpg? Your 15 airbags might have something to do with it.

And it's no coincidence that with the increase in overall safety we have an increasing population of retards and dumb people still alive today making life harder for everyone else.
 
2011-11-23 09:07:31 PM  
Bullshiat.

The technology is there, fuel efficiency and power. It's being produced on the individual custom shop level, ironically with GM, GE and off the self stuff. Look it up.

The problem is the lack of regulations forcing the manufactures to fund the capital changes needed to get the production lines and engineering up to snuff for mass production. They're cutting cents off costs, which over millions of cars ends up being millions more in profits. You think they're going to want to spend the sort of capital investments needed to change over manufacturing and engineering towards fuel efficiency?

Michigan can't create battleships, tanks and warplanes right now either; but give them a federal mandate and 6 months and you'd be surprised what would be rolling off the lines.


In the end the billions in fuel costs will pay for themselves. Even a redneck will jump on board getting a F350 with the same torque but getting 2X the gas mileage.
 
2011-11-23 09:09:20 PM  

aseras: I get 55mpg in my diesel now. With the ac full blast. heated seats too. Nav plays DVDs as well. Its as big as a suv, its a wagon.. So what's the problem?


Me too...WTF? My VW TDi gets 120-mph=mpg fuel economy for all reasonable speeds. It has power everything and AC that freezes the Sahara. Oh, and it's a 2002 model...the new ones are even more economical.

Seriously, Subby...WTF?
 
2011-11-23 09:11:58 PM  

accelerus: few people realize that 20 years ago we had little econo boxes that got 40+mpg

How could this be you ask? The car was literally an engine, 4 wheels, and a seat. Yeah it wasn't as safe as modern cars, but it was also 1000lbs lighter to start with.

Everyone seems so shocked when even with modern metallurgy, carbon fiber, aerodynamics, direct injection, we are still getting slightly above 30 mpg? Your 15 airbagsBillions in profits might have something to do with it.

And it's no coincidence that with the increase in overall safety we have an increasing population of retards and dumb people still alive today making life harder for everyone else.


fixt
 
2011-11-23 09:12:36 PM  
I'll take 19/27 and the ability to go more than 55mph for well over 300 miles, in my 3600lbs of Michigan-built metal from General Motors.

I've yet to see alternatively fueled/powered cars be done in anything but glorified golfcart or expensive exotic. When they start making large yet affordable behemoths with alternative fuels, I'll give them a second thought. Until then, the only intent of these regulations is to merely take away choice of larger yet affordable vehicles that GM & Chrysler want to make (and Ford used to make before they went full Euro on their lineup).
 
2011-11-23 09:13:15 PM  
Got air con, electrics, sat nav & stereo and get 50 - 70 mpg depending on traffic and how hard I drive.

You don't need to drop the extras, just drive a smaller vehicle. Preferably a turbo diesel. And if you absolutely need a bigger vehicle for your solo commute, I'm sorry to tell you but it won't make your dick any bigger.
 
2011-11-23 09:15:31 PM  
a bit off topic, but sort of correlates...

Saudisrmad (new window)
 
2011-11-23 09:15:35 PM  
images.thetruthaboutcars.com

I disagree. The problem is more that people both want- and NEED- space for passengers and cargo, in a certain volume and configuration, sometimes towing capacity, and a reasonably strong frame.

There are very efficient cross-sections like the Aptera design, above.

A problem, for example, is that the Aptera is not only a two-seater, you better not be going fishing or whatever, because you can't carry much. And that configuration is fixed, so if you ever want to go fishing, you may need to buy another car entirely to do that.

Couldn't it be made larger? Sure, it'll increase drag some, but we can attain a 5-seater with a cargo space and an engine capable of towing, and get far better highway mpg. However, the problem here is, IT'LL BE TOO BIG TO PARK. A sedan is designed around a standard rectangular volume commonly allocated as a garage or parking space. The square layout when seen from above is a consequence of that fact, it seeks to fill the box.

A teardrop-shaped outline, when viewed from above, has to be longer and/or wider to attain similar seating and cargo volume, then it won't "fit" into a standard space. Consequently, when corners are swept back, in order to fit into the same parking space, the available volume inside is unavoidably reduced- because the TARDIS is fictional. Then, it's in danger of being a car people don't want because it will no longer fit their needs.
 
2011-11-23 09:16:38 PM  

aseras: I get 55mpg in my diesel now. With the ac full blast. heated seats too. Nav plays DVDs as well. Its as big as a suv, its a wagon.. So what's the problem?


If it's about as big as Ford's C-Max(and said vehicle is called a van), that's one of the problems.

To the world, a SUV can mean a 4-banger station wagon with a large roof and a high wheel clearance.
To the US, a SUV means you get an actual truck body and a high-displacement engine.
 
2011-11-23 09:17:29 PM  
and that it's a fat chance people are going to give up plugging in their cellphones or running the air conditioner or cranking NPR.

"Cranking NPR" - That's gotta be a George Carlin "the first person in the world to put those words together in that particular order" comment.
 
2011-11-23 09:18:32 PM  
How about Congress outlaws gravity, then we can just fly everywhere.

Getting 55 MPG is stupid easy to do, getting it to do 0-60 in under 20 seconds and meet the emission regulations at the same time is the biatch.

The effect that these rules have is that the average age of cars increases as the cost of new cars gets driven up higher and higher every times new rules are passed.

blogs.cars.com

In the past, the poor would buy used cars that were a few years old and still had plenty of life in them. Now, thanks to the government, working to make the lives of the poor "better", the poor are forced to buy only the junkiest, most unreliable and unsafe cars that can be still put on the road because the demand for used cars has gone up because both the price of new cars has gone up so much and government regulations remove many otherwise serviceable cars off the market, reducing the supply.

Average New Car Price from 1906 to 2006:
www1.eere.energy.gov

Of course this has other effects too. Cars that can't get licensed in states with anal emissions requirements, made by the same organization who mandated that we poison our ground water, get sold in states without such rules.

/The government has one foot on the brake and one on the gas and blames everyone but itself for why we aren't going anywhere.
//semi-ranty mode
 
2011-11-23 09:24:20 PM  
farm3.staticflickr.com

When I turn the key to start it, the fuel pump kicking in sounds like a toilet flushing...
 
2011-11-23 09:27:07 PM  
So got that goin' for me.
 
2011-11-23 09:27:37 PM  

sethstorm: I'll take 19/27 and the ability to go more than 55mph for well over 300 miles, in my 3600lbs of Michigan-built metal from General Motors.

I've yet to see alternatively fueled/powered cars be done in anything but glorified golfcart or expensive exotic. When they start making large yet affordable behemoths with alternative fuels, I'll give them a second thought. Until then, the only intent of these regulations is to merely take away choice of larger yet affordable vehicles that GM & Chrysler want to make (and Ford used to make before they went full Euro on their lineup).


Guess who owns Chrysler. Go ahead, guess.
 
2011-11-23 09:27:43 PM  
Meh. I don't need any of those things.
 
2011-11-23 09:28:19 PM  

tzzhc4: Stoutpants: Or you could drive a small diesel car.

Exactly, though admittedly to get 50mpg you need a manual since the auto usually gets in the 40's. Had a VW TDI Golf for ~180k miles that I converted to run on WVO but switched to a LEAF (still have my diesel Jeep for long hauls). Diesel FTW


TDIs ARE indeed excellent, but keep in mind that you can't "score" diesel like this. A gallon of diesel has about 20% more mass, it's about 20% more carbon emission (no emission system changes the mass of CO2 released to be any different from that in the original fuel), and 20% more BTUs of thermal energy stored inside it. Often priced 20% more, too (highly variable). So it's essentially a volumetrically 17% smaller "gallon", which doesn't mean anything to environmental or conservation interests, or even your finances.

So 50mpg in diesel is similar efficiency to 41.7mpg on gasoline, in terms of BTU energy used and CO2 released. Which, don't get me wrong, of course 42mpg is pretty darn good!

Ethanol has the converse situation. It's only about 70% the density, in terms of kg/l, BTU/liter, and carbon/liter.

All this confuses the concept of what "miles per gallon" is. Really, it all smooths out nicely if we change this to "miles per lb (of fuel)". Then, suddenly the energy used and CO2 released are basically constant regardless of fuel type. TDI still scores very well, and rightfully so. In general ethanol and gasoline score about the same in "average" engine technology, and diesel only slightly better. But it affords one primary benefit: it gives credit where credit is due to technologies which are TRULY more efficient.
 
2011-11-23 09:29:06 PM  

aseras: I get 55mpg in my diesel now. With the ac full blast. heated seats too. Nav plays DVDs as well. Its as big as a suv, its a wagon.. So what's the problem?


I get the same in my TDI Jetta, it is wonderful. Just think what a hybrid diesel could do; 55mpg would be pretty absurdly easy.
 
2011-11-23 09:29:28 PM  
If I agree to forgo total consciousness and spend eternity in hell can I keep my AC?
 
2011-11-23 09:30:29 PM  
If gasoline were simply taxed such that the marginal price of one gallon actually equaled the marginal cost to society of burning one gallon, we wouldn't need to implement these restrictions.

/gasoline = most subsidized crap of all time = allocative inefficiency = societal clusterfark where people drive 13mpg pickups to the corner store
 
2011-11-23 09:31:17 PM  
Tell you what. I'll take the crank windows, poor A/C, regular seats, and no entertainment beyond an FM radio to get 55 mpg. But, here's what I want in return: 0-60 in moike's advice and get all that today for $10k.
 
2011-11-23 09:31:29 PM  
I don't see why this would be so difficult. I get 37mpg city, in a 1999 Saturn SL1, with all stock parts, no modifications to the engine or anything. Incidentally, that's a four-door that's bigger than most compacts. I have a radio, I use the air conditioning or the heater when necessary. The thing is, I follow the speed limit and don't drive like a jackass. Manual transmission certainly helps.

Seems to be quite a number of individuals (who seem to be, to a man, trying to compensate for something) bragging about how inefficient their own cars are. I wonder how much they'll brag about ten years from now, if gas prices keep going up.
 
2011-11-23 09:32:06 PM  
If you want to take my heated seat, you'll have to pry it from my warm toasty butt!
 
2011-11-23 09:35:02 PM  

TyrantII: Bullshiat.

The technology is there, fuel efficiency and power. It's being produced on the individual custom shop level, ironically with GM, GE and off the self stuff. Look it up.

The problem is the lack of regulations forcing the manufactures to fund the capital changes needed to get the production lines and engineering up to snuff for mass production. They're cutting cents off costs, which over millions of cars ends up being millions more in profits. You think they're going to want to spend the sort of capital investments needed to change over manufacturing and engineering towards fuel efficiency?

Michigan can't create battleships, tanks and warplanes right now either; but give them a federal mandate and 6 months and you'd be surprised what would be rolling off the lines.


In the end the billions in fuel costs will pay for themselves. Even a redneck will jump on board getting a F350 with the same torque but getting 2X the gas mileage.


Perhaps the reason why the auto companies and unions are much more receptive to the idea is the colossal failure of Detroit's bet on gas guzzlers. Another reason could be that no one of the auto companies in the American market wants to be the only one to take the risks involved in getting raising the fleet average but they will all go down the tubes by 2025 unless they have a good stable of 50 mpg vehicles by then. So, if the plunge must be taken, let all take the plunge.
\
 
2011-11-23 09:35:25 PM  
BMW 320d EfficientDynamics edition 163 hp, 265 lb-ft - 57MPG, available right now - except not in the USA. (Because BMW NA doesn't think it'll sell or some other lame reason) I think it points the way we are going. I'm curious to see what kind of economy a gasoline engined version will bring.

/ Still waiting for the F10 535d Touring (Wagon) to come to the USA
// Owns/Has owned 4 5 series tourings
/// One was an M5
 
2011-11-23 09:37:15 PM  
This is easier than you might think.

1. Convert to Imperial Gallons (which gives you an extra 32 oz per gallon)
2. Lose the heavy shiat that American cars lug about
3. Profit

Drove a Model A Benz on the Autobahn a few years ago, at over 160Kph, and used bugger all gas.

Now, is that so hard?
 
2011-11-23 09:38:58 PM  

moike: When I turn the key to start it, the fuel pump kicking in sounds like a toilet flushing...


So that's where Ram drivers throw their tampons...

I don't really care about trucks in general, but Rams are about the biggest biatch trucks ever. I'm convinced 95% of them never leave the suburbs and the only reason most people own them is because they think it makes up for the minivan their wife made them buy before.
 
2011-11-23 09:39:45 PM  
Where's the damn jet pack?! When I was a boy, they promised me a jet pack, not a little econobox.
 
2011-11-23 09:40:06 PM  

Big_Fat_Liar: and that it's a fat chance people are going to give up plugging in their cellphones or running the air conditioner or cranking NPR.

"Cranking NPR" - That's gotta be a George Carlin "the first person in the world to put those words together in that particular order" comment.


I love to drive around with all the windows down and All Things Considered cranked up to 11. It really annoys the guys with the rap booming out of their cars with the bass turned all the way up.
 
2011-11-23 09:40:18 PM  

sethstorm: GoodyearPimp: Good news: We will elect someone to rip out these "regulations" before they have to take effect.

THIS.

It'd also help to get rid of the regulations that require the smaller cars. Unlike the rest of the world, the US is built for large, high-cylinder count cars/vans/trucks. Not blingy 4bangers, hippie hybrids, or glorified golfcarts.


What crock of crap. I've never even owned a v-8 engine - and I'm 53 years old. Never needed that much to haul my ego. Every 4 cylinder car and truck I've owned went over 100K miles, and lot's of that on highways at and above posted speeds.

You have been convinced by the detroit marketing deparments that you are not a MAN unless you drive a "Manly", i.e. big and huge and burley and overbuilt, overweight, overpowered and fuel sucking ego hauling machine.

What is sad is that you will wave the flag of freedom and individuality right into your collective graves.

I'm sure your grandchildren will be grateful.
 
2011-11-23 09:43:33 PM  
I drove a 1983 Honda Accord 5-spd 1.8L manual in college which got pretty darn good mpg. Looking it up now, EPA says 32 city / 45 hwy. And that thing had 5 seats and a decent trunk and I did have it over 90 mph on occasion.

Looking up the new Hondas:

Year Manf. Model Engine Disp. Fuel Trans. City Highway
2011 Honda Accord 2DR Coupe 4 cylinder 2.4 liter R (A5) Auto 22 33
2011 Honda Accord 2DR Coupe 6 cylinder 3.5 liter R (M6) Manual 17 26
2011 Honda Accord 2DR Coupe 4 cylinder 2.4 liter R (M5) Manual 23 32
2011 Honda Accord 2DR Coupe 6 cylinder 3.5 liter R (S5) Auto 19 29
2011 Honda Accord 4DR Sedan 4 cylinder 2.4 liter R (M5) Manual 23 33
2011 Honda Accord 4DR Sedan 6 cylinder 3.5 liter R (A5) Auto 20 30
2011 Honda Accord 4DR Sedan 4 cylinder 2.4 liter R (A5) Auto 23 34
2011 Honda Accord Crosstour 2WD 6 cylinder 3.5 liter R (A5) Auto 18 27
2011 Honda Accord Crosstour 4WD 6 cylinder 3.5 liter R (A5) Auto 18 26

A key note here though... curb weight of the 1983 Accord was 2300 lbs. The curb weight for a base model 2012 Honda Accord Sedan LX-P is 3,287 lbs, so it's gone up nearly 50%!

You can't blame heated seats and power windows for that. I've done projects with power window motors, they weigh like 2lbs. The wire in a seat heater, and the thicker wire throughout the entire vehicle, is NOT significant on this scale. This looks like increased crash-worthiness AFAIK, probably a larger interior space, and higher engine weight. I think primarily just a beefier frame.

Well I never wrecked mine, I drove it to death, sure. I suspect the bottom line is we're trading mpg for crash-worthiness, and I speculate this process will always grow to fill the void. That is, no one can say they're totally safe to crash, right? Obviously not, nor will they ever be. We simply increased the frame weight until the mpg borders on being intolerably low, and stopped there, not because any specific goal was achieved, but because the crash-worthiness was a stronger govt mandate than mpg, and no mfg ever got sued because it got too low of a mpg. But they do get sued for crash injuries at times.
 
2011-11-23 09:46:21 PM  

Need a Dispenser Here: Make a Toyota pickup with a straight front axle, a Turbo diesel, and nothing else and I'll buy three.


You don't want tires???
 
2011-11-23 09:48:41 PM  

drewsclues: accelerus: few people realize that 20 years ago we had little econo boxes that got 40+mpg

How could this be you ask? The car was literally an engine, 4 wheels, and a seat. Yeah it wasn't as safe as modern cars, but it was also 1000lbs lighter to start with.

Everyone seems so shocked when even with modern metallurgy, carbon fiber, aerodynamics, direct injection, we are still getting slightly above 30 mpg? Your 15 airbagsBillions in profits might have something to do with it.

And it's no coincidence that with the increase in overall safety we have an increasing population of retards and dumb people still alive today making life harder for everyone else.

fixt


Even if I grant you that, what's your point? Car makers build cars that people want to buy. You can force car makers to build all the glorified go-carts you want, but the fact remains that people will not buy them. That's the reason they stopped making them in the first place, because nobody wanted them.

If a car is profitable to build and sell then that means they are making something customers want. If a car loses money, that means they are doing something the customer doesn't want. Car companies today typically lose money on small cars to get the average fuel economy up. Why do they lose money on those cars? It's not that they don't try to make them profitable, it's that people DO NOT WANT THEM.

The government may want these incredibly high fuel efficiency numbers, but the public clearly does not as they vote with their money on other things. You can fight reality all you want, reality will win in the end.

TyrantII: The problem is the lack of regulations forcing the manufactures to fund the capital changes needed to get the production lines and engineering up to snuff for mass production. They're cutting cents off costs, which over millions of cars ends up being millions more in profits. You think they're going to want to spend the sort of capital investments needed to change over manufacturing and engineering towards fuel efficiency?


Yes. Car companies are doing that as we speak. Fuel efficiency numbers are a major selling point in today's car market. If you think your ideas will work then perhaps you should write your representatives asking them to also repeal the law of gravity.

The government can mandate such pig-headed policies all it wants, the resulting cars will sit on the sales lots unsold until they are crushed and sold for scrap because the majority of the public indicates, through it's buying habits, that it does not want soda cans on wheels no matter how much pissing and moaning goes on in Washington. I personally wouldn't mind like such a car, but they can't be produced at a price point that I can afford new and people buying new cars won't buy them so they are available in the used market.

I do have my moped's though for high mileage.
 
2011-11-23 09:49:12 PM  

aseras: I get 55mpg in my diesel now. With the ac full blast. heated seats too. Nav plays DVDs as well. Its as big as a suv, its a wagon.. So what's the problem?


What mileage do you get AFTER you wake up?
 
2011-11-23 09:49:36 PM  

Oznog: You can't blame heated seats and power windows for that. I've done projects with power window motors, they weigh like 2lbs. The wire in a seat heater, and the thicker wire throughout the entire vehicle, is NOT significant on this scale. This looks like increased crash-worthiness AFAIK, probably a larger interior space, and higher engine weight. I think primarily just a beefier frame.


You picked kind of a bad car to compare in that manner. The new Accord is substantially larger than previous models. I believe the sedan is technically a full-size car now.
 
2011-11-23 09:49:59 PM  
Seems that somebody may be out of touch just slightly with this "many regular, inexpensive gas-powered cars that get more than 40 mpg" statement.
 
2011-11-23 09:50:47 PM  
www.autocarstyle.com

Disagrees.
 
KIA
2011-11-23 09:51:10 PM  

Enemabag Jones: But if they don't sell a dvd system, heated seats, with onstar, dual climate control and 40 airbags, how will they sell a basic car starting in the mid 25's?


This.

bmwericus: What is sad is that you will wave the flag of freedom and individuality right into your collective graves.


Umm... are you unclear on the concept of 'merica?
 
2011-11-23 09:51:31 PM  
paging gunga galunga to the thread
 
2011-11-23 09:52:18 PM  

Dick_Hertz: What mileage do you get AFTER you wake up?


The passat wagons actually got better fuel economy because they had a better drag coefficient.

They also came with the 'big' tank. There are people that get 1200 miles out of a tank.
 
2011-11-23 09:52:58 PM  
carphotos.cardomain.com

A nearly 30 year old car that runs on a fully gasoline engine and gets 49 mpg.


i41.tinypic.com

A brand new 0 year old car that is a hybrid that only gets 35 mpg.

It would be nice if we were actually making forward progress.
 
2011-11-23 09:54:47 PM  

accelerus: few people realize that 20 years ago we had little econo boxes that got 40+mpg

How could this be you ask? The car was literally an engine, 4 wheels, and a seat. Yeah it wasn't as safe as modern cars, but it was also 1000lbs lighter to start with.

Everyone seems so shocked when even with modern metallurgy, carbon fiber, aerodynamics, direct injection, we are still getting slightly above 30 mpg? Your 15 airbags might have something to do with it.

And it's no coincidence that with the increase in overall safety we have an increasing population of retards and dumb people still alive today making life harder for everyone else.


Well, we need somebody to vote for Dumbocrats!

Without the "retards and dumb people still alive today", who will support Biden, Pelosi, Maxine Waters, Chuckie Schumer, and Jesse Jackson?
 
2011-11-23 09:58:41 PM  

darkscout: Dick_Hertz: What mileage do you get AFTER you wake up?

The passat wagons actually got better fuel economy because they had a better drag coefficient.

They also came with the 'big' tank. There are people that get 1200 miles out of a tank.


He still hasn't told us what his car is. "It" gets 55 MPG. That's all we know.
 
2011-11-23 10:01:21 PM  

meatofmystery: sethstorm: I'll take 19/27 and the ability to go more than 55mph for well over 300 miles, in my 3600lbs of Michigan-built metal from General Motors.

I've yet to see alternatively fueled/powered cars be done in anything but glorified golfcart or expensive exotic. When they start making large yet affordable behemoths with alternative fuels, I'll give them a second thought. Until then, the only intent of these regulations is to merely take away choice of larger yet affordable vehicles that GM & Chrysler want to make (and Ford used to make before they went full Euro on their lineup).

Guess who owns Chrysler. Go ahead, guess.


www.conspiracyplanet.com
 
2011-11-23 10:01:45 PM  

accelerus: few people realize that 20 years ago we had little econo boxes that got 40+mpg

How could this be you ask? The car was literally an engine, 4 wheels, and a seat. Yeah it wasn't as safe as modern cars, but it was also 1000lbs lighter to start with.


And the joke was: Aspire- to own a better car
 
2011-11-23 10:04:11 PM  

Goodfella: It would be nice if we were actually making forward progress.


First, that's a CRX from the early 90s which was twenty years ago, not thirty.

Second, the 2012 Camry Hybrid gets 39 mpg on the highway, not 35.

Third, you're comparing a 110 horsepower small hatchback to a 200 horsepower family sedan.

Finally, which of those two cars would you rather be in if they were going to hit each other head on at 30 mph?

Not that your point doesn't have some very general merit, but your comparison is pretty absurd...
 
2011-11-23 10:09:58 PM  
55mpg is easy. Just use Imperial gallons.
 
2011-11-23 10:13:41 PM  

Dick_Hertz: He still hasn't told us what his car is. "It" gets 55 MPG. That's all we know.


aseras: I get 55mpg in my diesel now. Its as big as a suv, its a wagon. So what's the problem?


There are only 3 companies that brought diesels to the US. VW (& Audi), Benz and Jeep.

It's not the Jeep CRD. Benz didn't have any wagons. Audi only has the A3 right now (IIRC). So it's a VW. He says it's a wagon.

So it's either a B3 Passat Wagon. A B4 Passat Wagon. Or a Jetta Sportwagon.


darkscout: [www.autocarstyle.com image 407x305]

Disagrees.


Just did the numbers:
56.0389495 miles per gallon City
75.8565869 miles per gallon Highway
67.1967789 miles per gallon Combined

Optional Extras:
Curtain airbag system
Multi-Device Interface (iPod, etc).
Multi Function steering wheel.
AC/Electronic climate control.
Digital radio
Sat Nav
Rear sensors.
Winter Pack (heated seats, heated washer nozzles)

5 doors. 2010 Car of the Year.
 
2011-11-23 10:15:41 PM  

FerneJohn: I have no power windows, heated seats, or DVD. Man up, you sissies.


I could do without all of it too. Though I could see AC being a very nice thing to have in the south.
 
2011-11-23 10:15:42 PM  

Oznog: TDIs ARE indeed excellent, but keep in mind that you can't "score" diesel like this. A gallon of diesel has about 20% more mass, it's about 20% more carbon emission (no emission system changes the mass of CO2 released to be any different from that in the original fuel), and 20% more BTUs of thermal energy stored inside it. Often priced 20% more, too (highly variable). So it's essentially a volumetrically 17% smaller "gallon", which doesn't mean anything to environmental or conservation interests, or even your finances.

So 50mpg in diesel is similar efficiency to 41.7mpg on gasoline, in terms of BTU energy used and CO2 released. Which, don't get me wrong, of course 42mpg is pretty darn good!

Ethanol has the converse situation. It's only about 70% the density, in terms of kg/l, BTU/liter, and carbon/liter.

All this confuses the concept of what "miles per gallon" is. Really, it all smooths out nicely if we change this to "miles per lb (of fuel)". Then, suddenly the energy used and CO2 released are basically constant regardless of fuel type. TDI still scores very well, and rightfully so. In general ethanol and gasoline score about the same in "average" engine technology, and diesel only slightly better. But it affords one primary benefit: it gives credit where credit is due to technologies which are TRULY more efficient.


Not sure you read my post. I was running on WVO (waste vegetable oil with a grease car kit) which I would get from a local taco place for free. I would buy a case of filter socks sell half of them on eBay to make up the cost and shipping and then use the other half to filter out the tortilla shell bits then run it in my car. So fuel was only my cost in time. That coupled with the fact that my TDI only needed oil changes every 10k miles and the car was still running like a Singer sewing machine when I sold it at 180k miles and still got ~10k for it made it a pretty sweet purchase. That being said I have LEAF now not because it is cheaper but because I always wanted an electric car.

Reguardless do you own a diesel or are you just blowing smoke out your rear? ;)
 
2011-11-23 10:22:00 PM  
The CRxs were death traps.

I had a 2001 Honda Insight that would get 50 mph going 90 mph, or top 100 mph going around 45. It had decent AC and power windows. Some people put DVD players in it, and if you were a little crazy you could get heated seats though not sure it was worth risking a very expensive electrical system over it. It was about the size of a shoe so it heated up really quickly anyway. They were originally rated at 61/68, but I think with the new rules those went down a few points.
 
2011-11-23 10:23:08 PM  
The A/C in my car has been broken for two years, and I've discovered that I can live without it. Just need plenty of cold liquids for summer road trips. I'd gladly take manual windows, too- one less thing to break and have to fix.

/30MPG with the cruise control set to 65
 
2011-11-23 10:23:30 PM  
I have no power windows, heated seats, or DVD. Man up, you sissies.

When I bought my last car in 1990 I tried to get roll down windows - not available. (heated seats and DVD players had not been invented yet.) I'll probably be looking for a new car in ~ 5 years or so. I'm told it is getting really hard to find manual transmissions. Hope they are still around when I get shopping as I wouldn't want to live anywhere there is snow on the ground with an automatic.

They just keep taking those fuel saving options out of circulation.
 
2011-11-23 10:24:29 PM  
It's it all about chemical energy and the ability to push a weight? There's only so much you can get from a gallon of gas. There are so many variables in the purchase of a car. I choose safety. If we were to rid ourselves of all cars and ride about in bubble-mobiles, then I think 100mpg is very achievable..
 
2011-11-23 10:25:30 PM  

Dick_Hertz: Need a Dispenser Here: Make a Toyota pickup with a straight front axle, a Turbo diesel, and nothing else and I'll buy three.

You don't want tires???


Not really. Got my own sitting at home. 35" super swamper tsls on steelies I'd gladly strip off my current 4x4 beater.
 
2011-11-23 10:26:05 PM  

darkscout:

darkscout: [www.autocarstyle.com image 407x305]

Disagrees.

Just did the numbers:
56.0389495 miles per gallon City
75.8565869 miles per gallon Highway
67.1967789 miles per gallon Combined

Optional Extras:
Curtain airbag system
Multi-Device Interface (iPod, etc).
Multi Function steering wheel.
AC/Electronic climate control.
Digital radio
Sat Nav
Rear sensors.
Winter Pack (heated seats, heated washer nozzles)

5 doors. 2010 Car of the Year.


Is that "Imperial" gallons? I only ask because I made that error about a VW wagon once. Still, it's 48 or so MPG in US gallons if I remember right.
 
2011-11-23 10:27:29 PM  
I personally think that ALL cars (car=passenger vehicle meant for basic personal transport, not large cargo) should be ELECTRIC! The only difference should be the size of the battery.

Basically, every car should have a gas turbine engine with electric motors moving the wheels. Some cars will just have larger batteries and use the turbine less.
 
2011-11-23 10:33:50 PM  
My motorcycle has cold A/C this time of year and heated seat in the summer, but my deathbed lurks behind every corner.
 
2011-11-23 10:35:05 PM  
Or, you can sacrifice that unnecessary and wasted power by simply readjusting your fuel:air ratio.

40+ MPG Taurus. 98 model.

Stock.
 
2011-11-23 10:35:26 PM  

tzzhc4: Stoutpants: Or you could drive a small diesel car.

Exactly, though admittedly to get 50mpg you need a manual since the auto usually gets in the 40's. Had a VW TDI Golf for ~180k miles that I converted to run on WVO but switched to a LEAF (still have my diesel Jeep for long hauls). Diesel FTW


Automatic CVTs are actually becoming a little more efficient than manuals.
 
2011-11-23 10:39:15 PM  

moike: [www.blessthisstuff.com image 575x390]

Meh, keep your econobox... There are better ways to get 55mpg.


That bike does not get 55 MPG, if you a riding it properly. You might get 35 MPG.

If you want a nice bike that gets 50-60 MPG, get a Suzuki SV650, or V-strom 650.
 
2011-11-23 10:40:33 PM  
Why doesn't the mileage vary significantly now on cars with those options vs base models?
 
2011-11-23 10:44:00 PM  

inglixthemad: Is that "Imperial" gallons? I only ask because I made that error about a VW wagon once. Still, it's 48 or so MPG in US gallons if I remember right.


The reason there are so many digits is because I already did the conversion through google.

Those are US gallons.
 
2011-11-23 10:45:00 PM  
We wouldn't need such high standards if gas were cheaper!
 
2011-11-23 10:49:33 PM  
How about a diesel-electric hybrid system for cars like trains have? Use the diesel exclusively as a generator and run 100% electric for the powertrain.

Shouldn't be that hard --- the chevy volt is partway there already.
 
2011-11-23 10:52:47 PM  
img703.imageshack.us

55 MPG is for pinko pussies. Real Americans drive the 6000 SUX.
 
2011-11-23 10:53:36 PM  
You can all STFU. My 2002 turbo deisel VW bug will yield 51 mpg (observed biatches) at 70 mph, windows up/AC on. It's peppy enough to get out of it's own way. So I look like teh ghey driving it, who gives a shiat?

Of all the things you can do with oil, burning it is the stupidest.

\the '89 F250 gets about 14...
\\hauls more boards than the VW...
 
2011-11-23 10:55:43 PM  

Harry_Seldon: moike: [www.blessthisstuff.com image 575x390]

Meh, keep your econobox... There are better ways to get 55mpg.

That bike does not get 55 MPG, if you a riding it properly. You might get 35 MPG.

If you want a nice bike that gets 50-60 MPG, get a Suzuki SV650, or V-strom 650.


That's what I have, v-star 650. I'm loving the 50+mpg (so long as I keep it under 60mph).
 
2011-11-23 11:00:05 PM  
I only have power windows and locks because it was about impossible to find a vehicle that DIDN'T have them.

I want manual locks and manual windows if for no other reason, significantly cheaper to replace if they ever even break at all. I would go with a manual transmission but I have difficulty reaching the clutch on account of freakishly short legs.

It was $800 for a shop to do the regulator and motor on *one* window on my Towncar. And it needs two more. Wish it had manual windows, they'd still be working.
 
2011-11-23 11:01:11 PM  

sethstorm: GoodyearPimp: Good news: We will elect someone to rip out these "regulations" before they have to take effect.

THIS.

It'd also help to get rid of the regulations that require the smaller cars. Unlike the rest of the world, the US is built for large, high-cylinder count cars/vans/trucks. Not blingy 4bangers, hippie hybrids, or glorified golfcarts.


You sound like you're compensating for something.
 
2011-11-23 11:01:56 PM  

pete1729: \the '89 F250 gets about 14...
\\hauls more boards than the VW...


I bought a u-haul hitch for my VW, and a 5'x8' open trailer to haul stuff with. The '02 chassis is rated by VW to haul a trailer up to 1500 lbs (they recommend 1000 for the lower hp diesel engine). Anyway, it hauls all the plywood, lumber, cement and other shiat I need.

I even pulled my brother's 14' aluminum boat from SF to Seattle this past summer, which dropped my mpg about 5.
 
2011-11-23 11:03:45 PM  

Goodfella: [carphotos.cardomain.com image 575x431]

A nearly 30 year old car that runs on a fully gasoline engine and gets 49 mpg.


[i41.tinypic.com image 640x480]

A brand new 0 year old car that is a hybrid that only gets 35 mpg.

It would be nice if we were actually making forward progress.


Certain organizations that get huge subsidies from the government deliberately guided us toward that.
 
2011-11-23 11:06:13 PM  

TehNacho:

It was $800 for a shop to do the regulator and motor on *one* window on my Towncar. And it needs two more. Wish it had manual windows, they'd still be working.


Huh. I didn't know Volkswagen made the Towncar.
 
2011-11-23 11:08:25 PM  
DVD?

I honestly don't see where DVD would have much more of an impact than a radio/CD player, and then only have impact on a hybrid. The weight difference is nil, unless you've got four screens or something and then it's still not incredible. The electric use would impact a hybrid.

/doesn't have DVD in his vehicle
//doesn't want DVD in his vehicle
///gave old iPhone and netbook full of movies to daughter
 
2011-11-23 11:11:09 PM  
t0.gstatic.com
 
2011-11-23 11:13:51 PM  

ZMugg: meatofmystery: sethstorm: I'll take 19/27 and the ability to go more than 55mph for well over 300 miles, in my 3600lbs of Michigan-built metal from General Motors.

I've yet to see alternatively fueled/powered cars be done in anything but glorified golfcart or expensive exotic. When they start making large yet affordable behemoths with alternative fuels, I'll give them a second thought. Until then, the only intent of these regulations is to merely take away choice of larger yet affordable vehicles that GM & Chrysler want to make (and Ford used to make before they went full Euro on their lineup).

Guess who owns Chrysler. Go ahead, guess.



www.conspiracyplanet.com

More here. (new window)

Not nice people.
 
2011-11-23 11:21:07 PM  
I know NPR leans Left, why did they not mention that all these anti-smog add-ons and increased safety requirements make the cars weigh more and make the cars get lower gas mileage? They try to blame things like power windows. I thought I read somewhere that the electric window ended up weighing less and being more relaible than crank window.

I live in California and always have seen how we have lower gas mileage than the rest of the states and less engine choices. And usually the Euro specs for the same cars even better gas mileage.
 
2011-11-23 11:24:40 PM  

Need a Dispenser Here: Make a Toyota pickup with a straight front axle, a Turbo diesel, and nothing else and I'll buy three.


Like a Hilux?
 
2011-11-23 11:29:24 PM  
I love this thread so much.

I have an alternative point to raise though.

Why not stop worrying about individual vehicles so much, and start looking at the larger image? I drive 0.4 miles to work every day. There are 10 stop signs and 5 stop lights in that stretch. There is no route with LESS traffic control devices. (there are a lot of routes)

So... if the majority of these intersections had round abouts (1 already does), my fuel economy would effectively double. More importantly, so would the economy of the 2400 people that live along that route.

My point being, getting the average vehicle up in efficiency is good. But getting the average ROAD up in efficiency would be FAR more helpful. Also, it's LONG since time to really teach people to DRIVE. None of this license by cracker jack box shiat we have going on now.

Here is a test track. Get a 5 minute or less time without violating any laws, hitting anything, or assaulting your car mechanical systems.

Here is the second track, you have 1 gallon of gas and you must complete 5 laps in under 20 minutes. GO.

Presto, the real world average MPG jumps by not less than 15%

Also, included in my more difficult driver education program is HOW TO farkING MERGE AT FREEWAY SPEEDS, how to leave proper coasting gaps and following distances so that you don't have to slam the brakes or gas on a regular basis, and an advanced class in kinetic dynamics for those capable of understanding and applying it.

Throw in an enforcement budget to really go after bad drivers (not just speeders), and we'd realize savings (individually) and probably strongly influence driving related deaths/injuries.

Of course, that assumes that all men and women are equal, and can all actually learn to properly operate a complicated piece of machinery in an even more complicated system stuffed full of such machines. I have my doubts.
 
2011-11-23 11:31:00 PM  
Nothing about speed limits. Nope, not important. Ain't nobody gonna tell me how fast I can drive.

Farking idiots.
 
2011-11-23 11:31:38 PM  

pecosdave: DVD?

I honestly don't see where DVD would have much more of an impact than a radio/CD player, and then only have impact on a hybrid. The weight difference is nil, unless you've got four screens or something and then it's still not incredible. The electric use would impact a hybrid.


The alternator in a gas engine needs force to generate the electricity to power things in the car. More screens = more power = more force = more gas to turn the crankshaft. Electricity isn't free.
 
2011-11-23 11:31:59 PM  
media.giantbomb.com

i137.photobucket.com
 
2011-11-23 11:33:36 PM  

TehNacho: I only have power windows and locks because it was about impossible to find a vehicle that DIDN'T have them.

I want manual locks and manual windows if for no other reason, significantly cheaper to replace if they ever even break at all. I would go with a manual transmission but I have difficulty reaching the clutch on account of freakishly short legs.

It was $800 for a shop to do the regulator and motor on *one* window on my Towncar. And it needs two more. Wish it had manual windows, they'd still be working.



In 2004 I bought a Ford Focus, my other choice was a VW Jetta. But the Jetta is only offered full top of the line with power everything. I chose the Focus because it still offered a plain version with window cranks and low tech dash, etc. I agree they are easier to maintain than power stuff.
 
2011-11-23 11:36:57 PM  
My 98 Cavalier has none of those things and only gets 25 MPG. Subby is a lying whore.
 
2011-11-23 11:43:00 PM  
natgabIn 2004 I bought a Ford Focus, my other choice was a VW Jetta. But the Jetta is only offered full top of the line with power everything. I chose the Focus because it still offered a plain version with window cranks and low tech dash, etc. I agree they are easier to maintain than power stuff.

Why wouldn't you want a VW with power everything, I just don't understand?
 
2011-11-23 11:45:13 PM  
No Geo Sprint owners yet ?

My neighbor has 4 door w/ auto and still gets close to 40mpg. So not too bad for a gas engine w/ auto.
 
2011-11-23 11:48:16 PM  

Enemabag Jones: natgabIn 2004 I bought a Ford Focus, my other choice was a VW Jetta. But the Jetta is only offered full top of the line with power everything. I chose the Focus because it still offered a plain version with window cranks and low tech dash, etc. I agree they are easier to maintain than power stuff.

Why wouldn't you want a VW with power everything, I just don't understand?


a small difference of about $2000.00, i think that was the difference. a fully loaded focus I think was just a bit less, but I was looking ffor a cheaper option. sorry, forgot to add that to my comment.
 
2011-11-23 11:49:55 PM  
I just love seeing so many americans settling for century old technology. Do you people still put leeches on sick people too?
 
2011-11-23 11:50:22 PM  
"Like, when was the last time you actually took your hand and rolled down a window?"

This afternoon.

I have an old Honda Civic. No A/C. No power windows (gods above and below, I hate power windows, and would never buy a car with them). No heated seats. No DVD player. And a manual transformer, because slushboxes are for people who just steer; sticks are for people who drive. I love that car; I don't want any other. (it does have a radio, but the amount of drag from the small amount of power the radio uses makes next to no difference in the MPG)

I'm seeing a nation of hothouse plants around me, and it's scary.
 
2011-11-23 11:50:29 PM  

markb289: Big_Fat_Liar: and that it's a fat chance people are going to give up plugging in their cellphones or running the air conditioner or cranking NPR.

"Cranking NPR" - That's gotta be a George Carlin "the first person in the world to put those words together in that particular order" comment.

I love to drive around with all the windows down and All Things Considered Prairie Home Companion cranked up to 11. It really annoys the guys with the rap booming out of their cars with the bass turned all the way up.

 
2011-11-23 11:50:34 PM  

Tax Boy: How about a diesel-electric hybrid system for cars like trains have? Use the diesel exclusively as a generator and run 100% electric for the powertrain.

Shouldn't be that hard --- the chevy volt is partway there already.


Because that's probably hands down the least efficient way to do it. The only way they do it in trains is because the size of the transmission would not be feasible.

The most efficient way to use a diesel engine is to connect it directly to wheels. No slushbox automatic, no electric generator and motor, which even at 99% efficiency is still less than connecting it directly to the wheels. It's why hybrids fuel economy goes down on the highway. Hybrids main advantage is regenerative braking which is only useful in the city.

StoneColdAtheist: I bought a u-haul hitch for my VW, and a 5'x8' open trailer to haul stuff with. The '02 chassis is rated by VW to haul a trailer up to 1500 lbs (they recommend 1000 for the lower hp diesel engine). Anyway, it hauls all the plywood, lumber, cement and other shiat I need.


Agrees.
vw.exstatic.org
vw.exstatic.org

Between the interior with the seats folded down and the trailer It's like a clown car.
 
2011-11-23 11:52:43 PM  
04 Mazda 3, loaded, hatchback... don't care for the AC but I need my power windows, sunroof and all 4 windows down is wayyyyy nicer than AC. ZOOM ZOOM
 
2011-11-23 11:56:41 PM  

Vacation Bible School: markb289: Big_Fat_Liar: and that it's a fat chance people are going to give up plugging in their cellphones or running the air conditioner or cranking NPR.

"Cranking NPR" - That's gotta be a George Carlin "the first person in the world to put those words together in that particular order" comment.

I love to drive around with all the windows down and All Things Considered Prairie Home Companion cranked up to 11. It really annoys the guys with the rap booming out of their cars with the bass turned all the way up.


I guess my main ho Diane Rehm just doesn't have the street cred she once had, nomesayin. I be like boomin her dope lyrics old school n shiat
 
2011-11-24 12:03:45 AM  

Worldwalker: "Like, when was the last time you actually took your hand and rolled down a window?"

This afternoon.

I have an old Honda Civic. No A/C. No power windows (gods above and below, I hate power windows, and would never buy a car with them). No heated seats. No DVD player. And a manual transformer, because slushboxes are for people who just steer; sticks are for people who drive. I love that car; I don't want any other. (it does have a radio, but the amount of drag from the small amount of power the radio uses makes next to no difference in the MPG)

I'm seeing a nation of hothouse plants around me, and it's scary.


And where does the irrational hatred for power windows come from?
 
2011-11-24 12:03:49 AM  

King Something: Will the 55MPG BoringMobile at least come with a free frogurt?


The frogurt also lacks heated seats.
 
2011-11-24 12:04:05 AM  
Yea fark that. I live in Florida. I don't give much of a shiat about heating the thing, but you'll take my AC with the bloody stumps that used to be your hands.
 
2011-11-24 12:04:20 AM  
Big_Fat_Liar,I guess my main ho Diane Rehm just doesn't have the street cred she once had, nomesayin. I be like boomin her dope lyrics old school n shiat

Diane Rehm is the woman with the shakey voice, right?

She is begging to be autotuned.
 
2011-11-24 12:06:43 AM  

Hollie Maea: Need a Dispenser Here: Make a Toyota pickup with a straight front axle, a Turbo diesel, and nothing else and I'll buy three.

Like a Hilux?


Yup. Just in Canada. And not 20 years old.
 
2011-11-24 12:09:16 AM  

natgab: Enemabag Jones: natgabIn 2004 I bought a Ford Focus, my other choice was a VW Jetta. But the Jetta is only offered full top of the line with power everything. I chose the Focus because it still offered a plain version with window cranks and low tech dash, etc. I agree they are easier to maintain than power stuff.

Why wouldn't you want a VW with power everything, I just don't understand?

a small difference of about $2000.00, i think that was the difference. a fully loaded focus I think was just a bit less, but I was looking ffor a cheaper option. sorry, forgot to add that to my comment.


The 2000-2007 Ford Focus is a far more simple car to work on than its contemporary VW equivelents (Golf/Jetta/New Beetle), while providing a similar driving experience. Also, Ford electrical systems, while not perfect, aren't as fragile as VW electrical systems. My daily driver is a focus, wife has a New Beetle. I'm a mechanic and IT guy by trade (the recessing led to me growing professionally) - and while I really like the VW's - choosing a focus over a VW for cost purposes is understandable - I did the same thing twice - in 04 when I bought my first focus and again in 07 when I wanted a new car - I got another focus. Both the focus and the Mk 4 Golf platform cars have their pros and cons - the focus is just a far less expensive car that IMHO rides better (the control blade fully independent rear suspension makes for a nicer ride than the semi independent rear trailing arm setup of the mk 4 golf cars. - my wife's beetle rides really harsh compared to my focus - good when in the south - a source of pain around town where we live in PA)
 
2011-11-24 12:11:32 AM  
No heated seats here. It's Texas, man, we need refrigerated seats.

Anyway, power seats, that's something I never understood. For 90% of the population, you move them to the right spot and never move them again. And the electric motors sit there weighing God knows what for the life of the car.
 
2011-11-24 12:13:37 AM  

I can't get the cap off!: Worldwalker: "Like, when was the last time you actually took your hand and rolled down a window?"

This afternoon.

I have an old Honda Civic. No A/C. No power windows (gods above and below, I hate power windows, and would never buy a car with them). No heated seats. No DVD player. And a manual transformer, because slushboxes are for people who just steer; sticks are for people who drive. I love that car; I don't want any other. (it does have a radio, but the amount of drag from the small amount of power the radio uses makes next to no difference in the MPG)

I'm seeing a nation of hothouse plants around me, and it's scary.

And where does the irrational hatred for power windows come from?


The pesky fact that power window equipped cars tend to have more issues with the window regulators freezing or snapping. I've seen more power window setups fail horribly than I have with manual crank. The worst issue I've seen with manual crank is that the handle broke - five minutes and less than $10 later - all better. If I had the option of not getting power windows in my car - I would have, but alas - to get the sunroof, you must have power windows...

The germans suck at making window regulators that last.
 
2011-11-24 12:16:52 AM  

moike: [www.blessthisstuff.com image 575x390]

Meh, keep your econobox... There are better ways to get 55mpg.


And you press a button and it morphs into a coffin to bury you in when that idiot jabbering on a cell phone turns you into road pizza.
 
2011-11-24 12:22:42 AM  

accelerus: few people realize that 20 years ago we had little econo boxes that got 40+mpg

How could this be you ask? The car was literally an engine, 4 wheels, and a seat. Yeah it wasn't as safe as modern cars, but it was also 1000lbs lighter to start with.

Everyone seems so shocked when even with modern metallurgy, carbon fiber, aerodynamics, direct injection, we are still getting slightly above 30 mpg? Your 15 airbags might have something to do with it.

And it's no coincidence that with the increase in overall safety we have an increasing population of retards and dumb people still alive today making life harder for everyone else.


This is why I picked up a decent early 90's Acura integra for my little sister. No airbags, no abs. Excellent 360 degree visibility, low center of gravity, light weight, nimble handling, communicative suspension and steering, decent acceleration, and 30 mpg all day no matter how you drive it - if only they still made cars like this. Is it the safest in a crash - not really. Truth be told, the car will give her no illusions about invulnerability - as such, it will force her to be hyper aware of her surroundings. If anything, the lack of passive safety that this car will provide will more than be made up for by the increased active safety on the part of the driver.

I am a better driver when I feel vulnerable behind the wheel. As much as I love my Ford Focus, and the horrific things we've been through together - I don't feel vulnerable behind the wheel of it because it has always protected me when the need arose. There have been studies about how modern safety tech leads to people driving more unsafely because of this feeling. It's just harsh to look at myself and realize it.
 
2011-11-24 12:23:21 AM  

Worldwalker: (it does have a radio, but the amount of drag from the small amount of power the radio uses makes next to no difference in the MPG)


Yeah but what about the weight from the 300 lb subwoofer?
 
2011-11-24 12:24:02 AM  

Enemabag Jones: Big_Fat_Liar,I guess my main ho Diane Rehm just doesn't have the street cred she once had, nomesayin. I be like boomin her dope lyrics old school n shiat

Diane Rehm is the woman with the shakey voice, right?

She is begging to be autotuned.


I so want to hear that...
 
2011-11-24 12:27:37 AM  

Kahabut: I love this thread so much.

I have an alternative point to raise though.

Why not stop worrying about individual vehicles so much, and start looking at the larger image? I drive 0.4 miles to work every day. There are 10 stop signs and 5 stop lights in that stretch. There is no route with LESS traffic control devices. (there are a lot of routes)

So... if the majority of these intersections had round abouts (1 already does), my fuel economy would effectively double. More importantly, so would the economy of the 2400 people that live along that route.

My point being, getting the average vehicle up in efficiency is good. But getting the average ROAD up in efficiency would be FAR more helpful. Also, it's LONG since time to really teach people to DRIVE. None of this license by cracker jack box shiat we have going on now.

Here is a test track. Get a 5 minute or less time without violating any laws, hitting anything, or assaulting your car mechanical systems.

Here is the second track, you have 1 gallon of gas and you must complete 5 laps in under 20 minutes. GO.

Presto, the real world average MPG jumps by not less than 15%

Also, included in my more difficult driver education program is HOW TO farkING MERGE AT FREEWAY SPEEDS, how to leave proper coasting gaps and following distances so that you don't have to slam the brakes or gas on a regular basis, and an advanced class in kinetic dynamics for those capable of understanding and applying it.

Throw in an enforcement budget to really go after bad drivers (not just speeders), and we'd realize savings (individually) and probably strongly influence driving related deaths/injuries.

Of course, that assumes that all men and women are equal, and can all actually learn to properly operate a complicated piece of machinery in an even more complicated system stuffed full of such machines. I have my doubts.


It's okay - if they can't figure out how to drive properly they can ride a bicycle - or walk - or take a bus. Or starve.

Lots of good ideas. I don't know why those ideas aren't discussed more.
 
2011-11-24 12:28:05 AM  
Lots of rose coloured glasses regarding old cars and fuel mileage.

1984 Honda Accord was smaller than the current Civic, had 86hp, weighed 2300lbs and did 0-60 in just under 13 seconds. EPA mileage using the current method? 28mpg combined (25 city/32 highway).

2012 Honda Accord SE is classified as a full size car now, has 177hp with the 4 cylinder, weighs 3350lbs, does 0-60 in 9 seconds. EPA combined mileage? 27mpg combined (23 city/34 highway).

2012 Honda Civic EX is larger than the '84 Accord, has 140hp, weighs 2850lbs and does 0-60 in 9 seconds. EPA mileage? 31mpg combined (28/36mpg).

Both 2012 Hondas are hugely more capable than the old one, with lots of standard equipment that was optional or non-existent in 84. The old girl would fold like a tent in any kind of accident as well. One thing that doesn't show up in a 0-60 run is passing capability. On a two lane, passing in either of the later cars is a non event. Much more of a nail biter with only 86hp in the '84.
 
2011-11-24 12:33:16 AM  

iantm: natgab: Enemabag Jones: natgabIn 2004 I bought a Ford Focus, my other choice was a VW Jetta. But the Jetta is only offered full top of the line with power everything. I chose the Focus because it still offered a plain version with window cranks and low tech dash, etc. I agree they are easier to maintain than power stuff.

Why wouldn't you want a VW with power everything, I just don't understand?

a small difference of about $2000.00, i think that was the difference. a fully loaded focus I think was just a bit less, but I was looking ffor a cheaper option. sorry, forgot to add that to my comment.

The 2000-2007 Ford Focus is a far more simple car to work on than its contemporary VW equivelents (Golf/Jetta/New Beetle), while providing a similar driving experience. Also, Ford electrical systems, while not perfect, aren't as fragile as VW electrical systems. My daily driver is a focus, wife has a New Beetle. I'm a mechanic and IT guy by trade (the recessing led to me growing professionally) - and while I really like the VW's - choosing a focus over a VW for cost purposes is understandable - I did the same thing twice - in 04 when I bought my first focus and again in 07 when I wanted a new car - I got another focus. Both the focus and the Mk 4 Golf platform cars have their pros and cons - the focus is just a far less expensive car that IMHO rides better (the control blade fully independent rear suspension makes for a nicer ride than the semi independent rear trailing arm setup of the mk 4 golf cars. - my wife's beetle rides really harsh compared to my focus - good when in the south - a source of pain around town where we live in PA)


---Yeah, really been happy with the reliability and don't get charged extra for it being an import with the mechanic. Last US car I drove was when i learned on my Mom's 1980 Chevy Malibu, so you know that was crap.

I just wish I could have chosen the 2.0L engine in California, we only had the choice of the 2.3L. I would have liked to get even better gas mileage in the city. I drive too much in the city and not enough in the hiway were i get much better gas mileage.
 
2011-11-24 12:42:41 AM  

Big_Thumb: Lots of rose coloured glasses regarding old cars and fuel mileage.

1984 Honda Accord was smaller than the current Civic, had 86hp, weighed 2300lbs and did 0-60 in just under 13 seconds. EPA mileage using the current method? 28mpg combined (25 city/32 highway).

2012 Honda Accord SE is classified as a full size car now, has 177hp with the 4 cylinder, weighs 3350lbs, does 0-60 in 9 seconds. EPA combined mileage? 27mpg combined (23 city/34 highway).

2012 Honda Civic EX is larger than the '84 Accord, has 140hp, weighs 2850lbs and does 0-60 in 9 seconds. EPA mileage? 31mpg combined (28/36mpg).

Both 2012 Hondas are hugely more capable than the old one, with lots of standard equipment that was optional or non-existent in 84. The old girl would fold like a tent in any kind of accident as well. One thing that doesn't show up in a 0-60 run is passing capability. On a two lane, passing in either of the later cars is a non event. Much more of a nail biter with only 86hp in the '84.


I do hear 'ya. I'm saying power windows and DVD entertainment are not what raised the fuel consumption, and removing them won't do squat to "fix" mpg. The mpg is lower because frames got heavier and acceleration increased, which we DON'T want to part with.

Gotta break with NPR here. They're making a straw man argument by setting up a false belief that vanity features are why we can't get better mpg, which places blame on auto mfgs, and somehow grants the person making the argument a minor messiah status- the one who "has all the answers". Easy answers, actually. It's fashionable to call this stuff "vanity equipment" and that's clearly a sin so you can "feel good" about blaming that. You can't feel good about placing blame on improved crash standards.

This will not readily be disproven, because mfgs WON'T remove the dee-luxe vanity features because they know it won't do squat to fix the mpg problems. They've got little reason to send a someone to a radio talk show to explain that, they'll probably just be accused of being a shill for the industry that is committed to making fuel-guzzlers and stand only to lose face by engaging with logic.
 
2011-11-24 12:44:32 AM  
Jaguar XF Diesel makes cross-country trip averaging 62.9 mpg over 2,884 miles (new window)

The 2012 Jaguar XF Diesel is powered by a 2.2 liter 4-cylinder engine that makes a 187-hp with a maximum torque of 332 lb-ft. Mated to an 8-speed ZF automatic gearbox and a stop-start system, the diesel XF 2.2 goes from 0 to 62 mph in 8.5 seconds with a top speed of 140 mph.

I'm fairly sure the Jag has power, well, everything.

Not offered in the US, but given a bit of encouragement by government, it could be brought over fairly quickly.
 
2011-11-24 12:49:42 AM  
A fuel efficient car does not need a zero to sixty time of 6 or 7 seconds. If we are patient (chuckle), a car getting up to sixty in fifteen seconds is just fine. Smaller engines with a decent turbo will hit that benchmark just fine.
 
2011-11-24 12:52:35 AM  
To clarify, the Jag got 62.9 Imp mpg, 52.3 US mpg.
 
2011-11-24 12:54:24 AM  

Big_Thumb: Not offered in the US, but given a bit of encouragement by government, it could be brought over fairly quickly.


And only 75,000 dollars US.
 
2011-11-24 12:54:31 AM  

Big_Thumb: Lots of rose coloured glasses regarding old cars and fuel mileage.

1984 Honda Accord was smaller than the current Civic, had 86hp, weighed 2300lbs and did 0-60 in just under 13 seconds. EPA mileage using the current method? 28mpg combined (25 city/32 highway).

2012 Honda Accord SE is classified as a full size car now, has 177hp with the 4 cylinder, weighs 3350lbs, does 0-60 in 9 seconds. EPA combined mileage? 27mpg combined (23 city/34 highway).

2012 Honda Civic EX is larger than the '84 Accord, has 140hp, weighs 2850lbs and does 0-60 in 9 seconds. EPA mileage? 31mpg combined (28/36mpg).

Both 2012 Hondas are hugely more capable than the old one, with lots of standard equipment that was optional or non-existent in 84. The old girl would fold like a tent in any kind of accident as well. One thing that doesn't show up in a 0-60 run is passing capability. On a two lane, passing in either of the later cars is a non event. Much more of a nail biter with only 86hp in the '84.


The late 80's GEO Metro XFIs 1,0 L got 53/58 MPG. I recall talking to a guy at a gas station and asking if he actually got the sticker MPG and he said he sometimes did better, which seems to be what enthusiasts report today. The power of 49 horses!, 1,600 pounds, 13" skinny tires, no ABS, no air bags, no power anything, no passenger side mirror, no A/C, not even sure about having a radio, but 58 highway. i test one way back then and it seemed pretty normal to me. Then again, I would have been driving either a Chevette or Escort wagon at the time.

But yeah, no rocket and I know from owning two chevettes with similar HP that you did not want to try passing anything while going uphill or even on level ground with less than a half mile line of sight.
 
2011-11-24 12:55:41 AM  

StoneColdAtheist: pete1729: \the '89 F250 gets about 14...
\\hauls more boards than the VW...

I bought a u-haul hitch for my VW, and a 5'x8' open trailer to haul stuff with. The '02 chassis is rated by VW to haul a trailer up to 1500 lbs (they recommend 1000 for the lower hp diesel engine). Anyway, it hauls all the plywood, lumber, cement and other shiat I need.

I even pulled my brother's 14' aluminum boat from SF to Seattle this past summer, which dropped my mpg about 5.


A trailer, I feel like an idiot for never even considering one.

Is your a diesel? Do you see 50+ mpg on the highway?
 
2011-11-24 12:58:47 AM  

darkscout: Dick_Hertz: He still hasn't told us what his car is. "It" gets 55 MPG. That's all we know.

aseras: I get 55mpg in my diesel now. Its as big as a suv, its a wagon. So what's the problem?

There are only 3 companies that brought diesels to the US. VW (& Audi), Benz and Jeep.

It's not the Jeep CRD. Benz didn't have any wagons. Audi only has the A3 right now (IIRC). So it's a VW. He says it's a wagon.

So it's either a B3 Passat Wagon. A B4 Passat Wagon. Or a Jetta Sportwagon.


darkscout: [www.autocarstyle.com image 407x305]

Disagrees.

Just did the numbers:
56.0389495 miles per gallon City
75.8565869 miles per gallon Highway
67.1967789 miles per gallon Combined

Optional Extras:
Curtain airbag system
Multi-Device Interface (iPod, etc).
Multi Function steering wheel.
AC/Electronic climate control.
Digital radio
Sat Nav
Rear sensors.
Winter Pack (heated seats, heated washer nozzles)

5 doors. 2010 Car of the Year.


No Volvo in your list of 3? Hmm... You got a real citation (not the car) for that?
 
2011-11-24 12:59:48 AM  
doubletaxation.files.wordpress.com

Did you ever consider I might NEED 35 seats in my car?
 
2011-11-24 01:00:21 AM  

clovis69: Big_Thumb: Not offered in the US, but given a bit of encouragement by government, it could be brought over fairly quickly.

And only 75,000 dollars US.


The strawman argument was that big, luxurious, powerful cars would disappear. The Jag is the counterpoint. Small diesels in Europe are already bettering the 55mpg target by a pretty substantial amount.
 
2011-11-24 01:01:01 AM  
A New Flyer, a Nova, or even a Boeing for long distances gets better fuel efficiency per passenger anyhow.
 
2011-11-24 01:05:44 AM  
90's suzuki swift, 3 cyl, 5 spd. manual for the win!
 
2011-11-24 01:05:59 AM  
My Prius gets 55 MPG and it's not even a PHEV (Plug-in) version.

Not sure what the issue is here..
 
2011-11-24 01:08:09 AM  

Big_Fat_Liar:

The late 80's GEO Metro XFIs 1,0 L got 53/58 MPG. I recall talking to a guy at a gas station and asking if he actually got the sticker MPG and he said he sometimes did better, which seems to be what enthusiasts report today. The power of 49 horses!, 1,600 pounds, 13" skinny tires, no ABS, no air bags, no power anything, no passenger side mirror, no A/C, not even sure about having a radio, but 58 highway. i test one way back then and it seemed pretty normal to me. Then again, I would have been driving either a Chevette or Escort wagon at the time.

But yeah, no rocket and I know from owning two chevettes with similar HP that you did not want to try passing anything while going uphill or even on level ground with less than a half mile line of sight.


The current EPA method shows the 1990 Geo XFi as 47 combined, (43city/52highway). I looked at one back in the day, but it was a really disposable car. I ended up with a Dodge (Mitsubishi) Colt, worse mileage, but it held up pretty well and was about 4 seconds quicker to 60.
 
2011-11-24 01:16:22 AM  
I'm happy with my 15/21 mpg truck.

/Every time someone buys a prius, I burn a tire.

//When they buy a hybrid or electric, I also club 5 seals
 
2011-11-24 01:18:39 AM  
I can't do this....

reason.com
 
Ars
2011-11-24 01:24:29 AM  

pounddawg: goin


...which is nice.
 
2011-11-24 01:27:50 AM  

Saturn5: 55mpg is easy. Just use Imperial gallons.


And while you're at it, use the UK/EU mpg testing cycle.

To all of you quoting how great of mpg cars in Europe get, get a clue. They don't. They use a different sized gallon than the US, and their testing cycle is far less accurate. Wanna see an great example, using the exact same car?

2011 Prius; US = 51 mpg city, 48 mpg highway - according to fueleconomy.gov
2011 Prius; UK = 72 mpg city, 76 mpg highway Link (new window)

It's the exact same car, but notice a difference? Keep that in mind the next time you talk about how rad the _______ diesel car is in Europe, and that the US too could get 70+ mpg, if only we imported them. We already have cars on the roads in the US that the Europeans say gets 76 mpg. It's called a Prius.
 
2011-11-24 01:41:37 AM  

darkscout: Dick_Hertz: He still hasn't told us what his car is. "It" gets 55 MPG. That's all we know.

aseras: I get 55mpg in my diesel now. Its as big as a suv, its a wagon. So what's the problem?

There are only 3 companies that brought diesels to the US. VW (& Audi), Benz and Jeep.

It's not the Jeep CRD. Benz didn't have any wagons. Audi only has the A3 right now (IIRC). So it's a VW. He says it's a wagon.

So it's either a B3 Passat Wagon. A B4 Passat Wagon. Or a Jetta Sportwagon.


darkscout: [www.autocarstyle.com image 407x305]

Disagrees.

Just did the numbers:
56.0389495 miles per gallon City
75.8565869 miles per gallon Highway
67.1967789 miles per gallon Combined

Optional Extras:
Curtain airbag system
Multi-Device Interface (iPod, etc).
Multi Function steering wheel.
AC/Electronic climate control.
Digital radio
Sat Nav
Rear sensors.
Winter Pack (heated seats, heated washer nozzles)

5 doors. 2010 Car of the Year.


Dude, I don't care what it is, it ain't getting 75 miles per gallon on the highway. Even diesels, which can deliver impressive mileage, are hard-pressed to crack 50 on the highway. Acting like you get another 50% more out of it is total BS. I don't think most people who make exaggerated claims about their mileage even have any idea what they're actually getting, they're just guessing. Somewhere up thread someone is claiming an ancient V6 Taurus is getting 40 MPG. WTF? Simply not possible. I have a V6 Audi wagon, and I'm hard-pressed to get it over 20 MPG, and it isn't that much bigger than a Taurus, and certainly not 100% heavier than the magical 75 MPG Passat, which is about the same size. You guys are merely guessing at numbers that simply aren't possible driving in the real world. On the EPA's idealized test cycle? Sure, that's how they get the numbers on the sticker. But most consumers would be shocked to see how much less they get when they actually drive the car in normal traffic. Even at moderate speeds and throttle angles, the instant MPG readout on my Audi dips into single digits quite a bit.

You aren't getting these numbers unless you're one of those hypermile guys who coasts with the engine off or something.
 
2011-11-24 01:44:02 AM  
Weight's going to have to come down since we're probably not going to see that kind of improvement in combustion engine efficiency. Smaller cars won't be so bad since the average car will get smaller across the board.

Of course, all automakers will still have at least one unreasonable behemothmobile. The other cars in the lineup will have to be a little smaller and a little more efficient in order to make sure the averages are met. There will still be the middle age soccer mom in her 2036 Sequoia that plows into you. It will suck for your family, but it won't matter much to you since you will die instantly.
 
2011-11-24 01:51:17 AM  

MrSteve007:
2011 Prius; US = 51 mpg city, 48 mpg highway - according to fueleconomy.gov
2011 Prius; UK = 72 mpg city, 76 mpg highway Link (new window)

It's the exact same car, but notice a difference? Keep that in mind the next time you talk about how rad the _______ diesel car is in Europe, and that the US too could get 70+ mpg, if only we imported them. We already have cars on the roads in the US that the Europeans say gets 76 mpg. It's called a Prius.


While you've got a good point, they're not the exact same car. Cars built for the European market are different than cars built for the US market. Anti-pollution laws and other regulations are different in Europe and the US. Those regulations have a big influence on MPG and horsepower. So, while the difference in the US gallon vs. Imp gallon is a big part of the story, it's not the entire story.
 
2011-11-24 01:57:47 AM  
Gunga galunga...gunga- gunga lagunga.

www.theblackninja.com

And the Lama says "Oh, uh, there won't be any money, but when you die, on your deathbed, you will receive total consciousness." So I got that goin' for me, which is nice.
 
2011-11-24 02:03:17 AM  

I can't get the cap off!: And where does the irrational hatred for power windows come from?


that which does not exist can not break and cost you $750 to replace.
 
2011-11-24 02:11:19 AM  

Nutsac_Jim: I can't get the cap off!: And where does the irrational hatred for power windows come from?

that which does not exist can not break and cost you $750 to replace.


Do you know how embarrassing it is to take a lady on a date in a car with manual windows?
 
2011-11-24 02:21:12 AM  

King Something: Will the 55MPG BoringMobile at least come with a free frogurt?


Man, the advertisers have us whipped. Convincing us that things that are good for us are nasty, and all the good things in life are bad for us.

/Okay, the advertisers and the clergy...
 
2011-11-24 02:25:33 AM  

Harry_Seldon: Nutsac_Jim: I can't get the cap off!: And where does the irrational hatred for power windows come from?

that which does not exist can not break and cost you $750 to replace.

Do you know how embarrassing it is to take a lady on a date in a car with manual windows?


Nope. I pull up to my house to hop in and get something. They no longer give a poo about power windows, and I get to put that repair money into something that generally goes up in value. Use your manual windows as a filter for women you don't really want anyway.
 
2011-11-24 02:28:05 AM  

Splinshints: moike: When I turn the key to start it, the fuel pump kicking in sounds like a toilet flushing...

So that's where Ram drivers throw their tampons...

I don't really care about trucks in general, but Rams are about the biggest biatch trucks ever. I'm convinced 95% of them never leave the suburbs and the only reason most people own them is because they think it makes up for the minivan their wife made them buy before.


2/10

Why Yes I Am A Wizard: moike: [www.blessthisstuff.com image 575x390]

Meh, keep your econobox... There are better ways to get 55mpg.

And you press a button and it morphs into a coffin to bury you in when that idiot jabbering on a cell phone turns you into road pizza.


Those damn Italians... they think of everything.
 
2011-11-24 02:34:53 AM  

accelerus: few people realize that 20 years ago we had little econo boxes that got 40+mpg

How could this be you ask? The car was literally an engine, 4 wheels, and a seat. Yeah it wasn't as safe as modern cars, but it was also 1000lbs lighter to start with.


Doesn't have to be an econobox. A 1.1L Opel GT sports car from forty-three years ago, arguably a very sexy car (new window), will crack 40mpg (combined) stock. Upgrade the ignition, do some slight tuning,and you can get it to 50+mpg. The bigger engine version will still get you 30+ freeway, if not 40. My record was 41mpg freeway on a round-trip to Portland. Just under 10 gallons of gas burned for just over 400 miles of driving, even with the hour long stop and go session in Olympia, WA.
 
2011-11-24 02:41:23 AM  

Harry_Seldon:

Do you know how embarrassing it is to take a lady on a date in a car with manual windows?


Probably slightly less embarrassing than owning a car that's so old that the window motor stopped working. Most decent cars pretty much got the "simple drive motor" concept nailed down back in the mid 80s.

It's great for weeding out the gold diggers though. I use the same concept, slightly modified, with my futon.
 
2011-11-24 02:45:11 AM  
So upthread the guy who drives .4 miles to work and wonders why we haven't solved the problem of never having to wait at an intersection...

Inorite? Sometimes I drive from my bed into the shower, but my car won't fit in the shower, so I have to leave the car idling in the kitchen. But then the toast is ready, and I have to drive the car back into the bedroom so I can reach the toaster. Annoy-ing... And don't get me started on how long a drive it is to pick up the mail from the end of the driveway.
 
2011-11-24 03:45:16 AM  

Crosshair: How about Congress outlaws gravity, then we can just fly everywhere.

Getting 55 MPG is stupid easy to do, getting it to do 0-60 in under 20 seconds and meet the emission regulations at the same time is the biatch.

The effect that these rules have is that the average age of cars increases as the cost of new cars gets driven up higher and higher every times new rules are passed.

[blogs.cars.com image 560x375]

In the past, the poor would buy used cars that were a few years old and still had plenty of life in them. Now, thanks to the government, working to make the lives of the poor "better", the poor are forced to buy only the junkiest, most unreliable and unsafe cars that can be still put on the road because the demand for used cars has gone up because both the price of new cars has gone up so much and government regulations remove many otherwise serviceable cars off the market, reducing the supply.

Average New Car Price from 1906 to 2006:
[www1.eere.energy.gov image 486x350]

Of course this has other effects too. Cars that can't get licensed in states with anal emissions requirements, made by the same organization who mandated that we poison our ground water, get sold in states without such rules.

/The government has one foot on the brake and one on the gas and blames everyone but itself for why we aren't going anywhere.
//semi-ranty mode


LOL! I spotted the idiot before I read your username.

The average age of cars is increasing because they are getting more reliable. My Hyundai Elantra has 165k miles and I feel safe driving it hundreds of miles. Try saying that in 1977 about a car with as many miles.

And your second graph pretty much contradicts your own words - it demonstrates that new car prices are practically unchanged since 1980, despite the majority of fuel economy, emissions, and safety requirements and improvements having come after then.
 
2011-11-24 03:52:25 AM  
It was $800 for a shop to do the regulator and motor on *one* window on my Towncar. And it needs two more. Wish it had manual windows, they'd still be working.

Mine just has some broken wires, but it still is 3-4 hours of work for the mechanic because they have to take the wiring harness apart. I asked for manual windows and locks - not available.

Why not stop worrying about individual vehicles so much, and start looking at the larger image? I drive 0.4 miles to work every day. There are 10 stop signs and 5 stop lights in that stretch. There is no route with LESS traffic control devices. (there are a lot of routes)

Why? The traffic signs are there because the traffic is heavy. Traffic is heavy because people can't be bothered to walk a little bit. Walk to work. You will get there faster, save a lot of gas money, get some exercise and reduce the stress for other people on the road that have further than a stones throw to drive.
 
2011-11-24 03:59:06 AM  

drewsclues: accelerus: few people realize that 20 years ago we had little econo boxes that got 40+mpg

How could this be you ask? The car was literally an engine, 4 wheels, and a seat. Yeah it wasn't as safe as modern cars, but it was also 1000lbs lighter to start with.

Everyone seems so shocked when even with modern metallurgy, carbon fiber, aerodynamics, direct injection, we are still getting slightly above 30 mpg? Your 15 airbagsBillions in profits might have something to do with it.

And it's no coincidence that with the increase in overall safety we have an increasing population of retards and dumb people still alive today making life harder for everyone else.

fixt


This argument makes no sense. Are you really suggesting that there isn't a single automaker on Earth that can see a way to make money selling cars with 50 mpg and all the options people want?

If someone knew how to do it there would be VC dollars thrown at them to do it.
 
2011-11-24 04:02:54 AM  

DVOM: MrSteve007:
2011 Prius; US = 51 mpg city, 48 mpg highway - according to fueleconomy.gov
2011 Prius; UK = 72 mpg city, 76 mpg highway Link (new window)

It's the exact same car, but notice a difference? Keep that in mind the next time you talk about how rad the _______ diesel car is in Europe, and that the US too could get 70+ mpg, if only we imported them. We already have cars on the roads in the US that the Europeans say gets 76 mpg. It's called a Prius.

While you've got a good point, they're not the exact same car. Cars built for the European market are different than cars built for the US market. Anti-pollution laws and other regulations are different in Europe and the US. Those regulations have a big influence on MPG and horsepower. So, while the difference in the US gallon vs. Imp gallon is a big part of the story, it's not the entire story.


But the point is you can't just "bring it over" - all these "amazing" engines over there would fizzle and die here. This is especially true with diesel engines, as the difference between US and Euro diesel regulations is much greater than the difference between US and Euro gasoline regulations.
 
2011-11-24 05:39:31 AM  

moike: [www.blessthisstuff.com image 575x390]

Meh, keep your econobox... There are better ways to get 55mpg.


i call bullshiat on that. my bike is 250cc and it does 55mpg. that ducaty with almost 4x the displacement, you'd be lucky to get half that. less if you turn the throtle all the way.
 
2011-11-24 06:21:40 AM  

Tillmaster:
2. Lose the heavy shiat that American cars lug about


Whats the point of a car without a driver or passengers?
 
2011-11-24 07:04:39 AM  
Erm... perhaps the problem is with American cars? Seriously thought I had a diesel Golf that moved like shiat off a shovel, got 55+mpg AND had all the toys you could ever want.

So if your, American, auto-industry is struggling to meet those requirements... perhaps bailing them out wasn't such a hot idea?
 
2011-11-24 07:30:03 AM  

Harry_Seldon: Nutsac_Jim: I can't get the cap off!: And where does the irrational hatred for power windows come from?

that which does not exist can not break and cost you $750 to replace.

Do you know how embarrassing it is to take a lady on a date in a car with manual windows?


Power windows got her into the back seat.

s11.allstarpics.net
 
2011-11-24 07:45:56 AM  

covarde_anonimo: moike: [www.blessthisstuff.com image 575x390]

Meh, keep your econobox... There are better ways to get 55mpg.

i call bullshiat on that. my bike is 250cc and it does 55mpg. that ducaty with almost 4x the displacement, you'd be lucky to get half that. less if you turn the throtle all the way.


i CALL BS ON YOUR BS CALL.

I have a DL1000 V-Strom I get 55 mpg. 65 if I baby it and drive 55. Same 4x displacement.
 
2011-11-24 07:54:09 AM  
www.giviusa.com
 
2011-11-24 08:05:46 AM  

Tillmaster: 2. Lose the heavy shiat that American cars lug about


Except isn't the heavy shiat that American cars lug about typically the driver and passangers?
 
2011-11-24 08:31:07 AM  
"this is what my dodge ram looks like"...RAM!

You are a dog farker

You are probably the guy who takes a picture of his truck to post it on fark

What a huomuo
 
2011-11-24 08:35:09 AM  

Kahabut: I drive 0.4 miles to work every day.


You sound fat.
 
2011-11-24 08:51:36 AM  
I currently drive:

A toyota sequoia - to haul my life around
A toyota prius - to commute
A Z4 - for fun

They all do different things well and I use the one I need. I don't always need to get 60 MPG. I honestly don't care if YOU can't afford 15 MPG.
 
2011-11-24 08:54:11 AM  

simusid: I currently drive:

A toyota sequoia - to haul my life around
A toyota prius - to commute
A Z4 - for fun

They all do different things well and I use the one I need. I don't always need to get 60 MPG. I honestly don't care if YOU can't afford 15 MPG.


Pretty much all of THIS except I don't have a Prius, Sequoia or a Z4 :)
 
2011-11-24 09:08:27 AM  

Enigmamf: DVOM: MrSteve007:
2011 Prius; US = 51 mpg city, 48 mpg highway - according to fueleconomy.gov
2011 Prius; UK = 72 mpg city, 76 mpg highway Link (new window)

It's the exact same car, but notice a difference? Keep that in mind the next time you talk about how rad the _______ diesel car is in Europe, and that the US too could get 70+ mpg, if only we imported them. We already have cars on the roads in the US that the Europeans say gets 76 mpg. It's called a Prius.

While you've got a good point, they're not the exact same car. Cars built for the European market are different than cars built for the US market. Anti-pollution laws and other regulations are different in Europe and the US. Those regulations have a big influence on MPG and horsepower. So, while the difference in the US gallon vs. Imp gallon is a big part of the story, it's not the entire story.

But the point is you can't just "bring it over" - all these "amazing" engines over there would fizzle and die here. This is especially true with diesel engines, as the difference between US and Euro diesel regulations is much greater than the difference between US and Euro gasoline regulations.



Maybe they would, maybe they wouldn't. The main problem is that the government would seize your uncertified euro-spec car. They do have exemptions if the car is only to be driven on a race track or exhibited. But that would defeat the whole purpose of self-importing a high-mileage car.
 
2011-11-24 09:14:27 AM  

Oznog: A problem, for example, is that the Aptera is not only a two-seater, you better not be going fishing or whatever, because you can't carry much. And that configuration is fixed, so if you ever want to go fishing, you may need to buy another car entirely to do that.


I understand your point here-- but what I'm having trouble figuring out is why fishing specifically wouldn't work. I think the trunk in that thing is big enough for a tacklebox and a pole, yes?
 
2011-11-24 09:20:13 AM  

DVOM: MrSteve007:
2011 Prius; US = 51 mpg city, 48 mpg highway - according to fueleconomy.gov
2011 Prius; UK = 72 mpg city, 76 mpg highway Link (new window)

It's the exact same car, but notice a difference? Keep that in mind the next time you talk about how rad the _______ diesel car is in Europe, and that the US too could get 70+ mpg, if only we imported them. We already have cars on the roads in the US that the Europeans say gets 76 mpg. It's called a Prius.

While you've got a good point, they're not the exact same car. Cars built for the European market are different than cars built for the US market. Anti-pollution laws and other regulations are different in Europe and the US. Those regulations have a big influence on MPG and horsepower. So, while the difference in the US gallon vs. Imp gallon is a big part of the story, it's not the entire story.


The Prius is about the safest example you can choose here-- it really is almost identical in all of its markets, differing only in slight trim package changes. The UK and US fuel economy tests really are that different. (Not to mention they use a bigger gallon.)
 
2011-11-24 09:36:42 AM  

Goodfella: [carphotos.cardomain.com image 575x431]

A nearly 30 year old car that runs on a fully gasoline engine and gets 49 mpg.


[i41.tinypic.com image 640x480]

A brand new 0 year old car that is a hybrid that only gets 35 mpg.

It would be nice if we were actually making forward progress.


Aww, come on. At least compare similar cars. A 110hp 2-seat manual hatchback vs a 200hp 5-seat sedan? I'm not surprised a tiny late-80s kammback wins. Of all the cars to compare it to, the Prius probably makes the most sense (besides maybe the new CRZ)-- it shares the aerodynamic kammback design and utility-over-all aesthetic of the CRX... and it seats three more people with better fuel economy. I think it's safe to say we're moving forward.

I'll at least agree that the Camry hybrid is a little head-scratching. I average 35mpg in a Ford Escape hybrid. It's as aerodynamic as a brick. How did the company that makes the Prius manage to make such an underwhelming version of the Camry?
 
2011-11-24 09:42:46 AM  

darkscout: Dick_Hertz: He still hasn't told us what his car is. "It" gets 55 MPG. That's all we know.

aseras: I get 55mpg in my diesel now. Its as big as a suv, its a wagon. So what's the problem?

There are only 3 companies that brought diesels to the US. VW (& Audi), Benz and Jeep.

It's not the Jeep CRD. Benz didn't have any wagons. Audi only has the A3 right now (IIRC). So it's a VW. He says it's a wagon.

So it's either a B3 Passat Wagon. A B4 Passat Wagon. Or a Jetta Sportwagon.


darkscout: [www.autocarstyle.com image 407x305]

Disagrees.

Just did the numbers:
56.0389495 miles per gallon City
75.8565869 miles per gallon Highway
67.1967789 miles per gallon Combined

Optional Extras:
Curtain airbag system
Multi-Device Interface (iPod, etc).
Multi Function steering wheel.
AC/Electronic climate control.
Digital radio
Sat Nav
Rear sensors.
Winter Pack (heated seats, heated washer nozzles)

5 doors. 2010 Car of the Year.


Try and pay attention to significant figures in the future. You discredit yourself by indicating you have calculated something to the millionth of a mile.

/lots of fun at parties
 
2011-11-24 10:00:50 AM  

Goodfella: It would be nice if we were actually making forward progress.


I know which one I'd rather be in in the event of a collision.

And I know which one I'd rather take to the DMV for an inspection and emissions test.
 
2011-11-24 10:13:15 AM  

poot_rootbeer: I know which one I'd rather be in in the event of a collision.


Learn to drive. You local PCA, BMWCCA or SCCA can put you in touch with a driving school. After an afternoon or two of making complete messes of a bunch of corners, your likelihood of crashing on the streets drops dramatically.
 
2011-11-24 10:19:57 AM  
All this talk about fuel efficiency. Won't someone please consider the poor oil executives?
 
2011-11-24 10:29:15 AM  

opine.emote.repeat: Try and pay attention to significant figures in the future. You discredit yourself by indicating you have calculated something to the millionth of a mile.


Like I said. I just did a copy pasta from "x miles per (imperial gallon) to miles per (us gallon)" from google.

JerkStore: Dude, I don't care what it is, it ain't getting 75 miles per gallon on the highway. Even diesels, which can deliver impressive mileage, are hard-pressed to crack 50 on the highway.


On sale, right now 1.2 TDI Polo.
img64.imageshack.us

Then there was 3L Lupo from a few years ago.
Link (new window)
• 1.2 litre 3-cylinder diesel engine with turbocharger and direct injection (61 hp, 140 Nm)
• Use of light-weight aluminum and magnesium alloys for doors, bonnet (hood), rear-hatch, seat frames, engine block, wheels, suspension system etc. to achieve a weight of only 830 kg (1,830 lb)
• Tiptronic gearbox
• Engine start/stop automatic to avoid long idling periods
• Low rolling resistance tires
• Battery location moved to rear for better weight distribution
• Changed aerodynamics, so a CW value of 0,29 was achieved


Hell. I've squeezed 61 MPG out of my 1998 1.9L TDI once. I only drove late at night, I did 5 under (60 mph). 5th gear. Peoria, Chicago, Detroit, Fort Wayne, Chicago, Peoria on less than a tank of fuel.

UnspokenVoice: No Volvo in your list of 3? Hmm... You got a real citation (not the car) for that?


Ooo, I forgot about the Volvo. I remember looking at getting one. I think it was the 240D. I think it was their only model and they only did for a few years. I also don't think they brought over any wagons. I guess I should throw out that GM also had diesels, but we like to pretend that didn't happen.
t1.gstatic.com


Kahabut: I drive 0.4 miles to work every day.


You sound fat. Seriously? Rain, Snow, Shine I walk/bike at least that far to classes. Driving wouldn't make any sense because there aren't any closer parking spots.
 
2011-11-24 10:42:30 AM  
i1045.photobucket.com
 
kab
2011-11-24 10:43:12 AM  
Having grown up driving many many vehicles that had no such amenities aside from heat / defroster (and in a few cases, not even that), this wouldn't be a big deal at all.
 
kab
2011-11-24 10:45:55 AM  

moike: [www.blessthisstuff.com image 575x390]

Meh, keep your econobox... There are better ways to get 55mpg.


do. want. But umm... it's highly unlikely you're seeing anything close to 55mpg on that particular bike.
 
2011-11-24 10:50:42 AM  
Americans are WAY TOO FAT to fit in regular sized autos. And have you seen the "kids"?

/only the largest SUV will house those obese freaks
 
2011-11-24 10:51:47 AM  

fatalvenom: [i1045.photobucket.com image 340x453]


I didn't used to get this extreme, but lately it's getting tough. I can't count the number of Type IV rebuilds I've had to do lately to lack of zink in oil. Probably 1 a month for the past year or so. It's starting to feel like they're trying to kill these old beauties.
 
2011-11-24 10:56:57 AM  
Oh, and what a window regulator should look like:

forums.pelicanparts.com

My lawn, get off it
 
2011-11-24 11:14:36 AM  

accelerus: few people realize that 20 years ago we had little econo boxes that got 40+mpg

How could this be you ask? The car was literally an engine, 4 wheels, and a seat. Yeah it wasn't as safe as modern cars, but it was also 1000lbs lighter to start with.

Everyone seems so shocked when even with modern metallurgy, carbon fiber, aerodynamics, direct injection, we are still getting slightly above 30 mpg? Your 15 airbags might have something to do with it.

And it's no coincidence that with the increase in overall safety we have an increasing population of retards and dumb people still alive today making life harder for everyone else.


Hell, I had a 1989 Toyota Corolla that had AC,a loud stereo and even sound deadening asphalt panels and it routinely got 40-42 mpg highway, of course it was a stick
 
2011-11-24 11:21:34 AM  

darkscout: Ooo, I forgot about the Volvo. I remember looking at getting one. I think it was the 240D. I think it was their only model and they only did for a few years. I also don't think they brought over any wagons. I guess I should throw out that GM also had diesels, but we like to pretend that didn't happen.


I don't know who brought it over or if it came down from Canada but I had an early 80's 245D which is why I figured you were full of shiat making up shiat as you went along asked. ;)
 
2011-11-24 11:23:29 AM  

rohar: poot_rootbeer: I know which one I'd rather be in in the event of a collision.

Learn to drive. You local PCA, BMWCCA or SCCA can put you in touch with a driving school. After an afternoon or two of making complete messes of a bunch of corners, your likelihood of crashing on the streets drops dramatically.


Right. How's that SCCA class going to prepare you for a moronic soccer mom who pulls out in front of you with 20 feet to spare, wet roads and zero room to avoid?

Oh wait, I know whats going to help you: ABS/stability control.

/had an SCCA comp license years ago. Great fun if I feel like hanging the family truckster at 10/10th's on the way to work.
 
2011-11-24 11:43:30 AM  

Enormous-Schwanstucker: rohar: poot_rootbeer: I know which one I'd rather be in in the event of a collision.

Learn to drive. You local PCA, BMWCCA or SCCA can put you in touch with a driving school. After an afternoon or two of making complete messes of a bunch of corners, your likelihood of crashing on the streets drops dramatically.

Right. How's that SCCA class going to prepare you for a moronic soccer mom who pulls out in front of you with 20 feet to spare, wet roads and zero room to avoid?

Oh wait, I know whats going to help you: ABS/stability control.

/had an SCCA comp license years ago. Great fun if I feel like hanging the family truckster at 10/10th's on the way to work.


And if she had decent training, she wouldn't pull out in front of you like that.

Training reduces accidents, not air bags.
 
2011-11-24 11:53:46 AM  

darkscout: StoneColdAtheist: I bought a u-haul hitch for my VW, and a 5'x8' open trailer to haul stuff with. The '02 chassis is rated by VW to haul a trailer up to 1500 lbs (they recommend 1000 for the lower hp diesel engine). Anyway, it hauls all the plywood, lumber, cement and other shiat I need.

Agrees.
[vw.exstatic.org image 640x143]
[vw.exstatic.org image 267x200]

Between the interior with the seats folded down and the trailer It's like a clown car.


Good lookin' setup you got there! My Golf is a little roomier at the back end than a Jetta, but yeah...kind'a clown car-ish with 12' 2x4s sticking out the ass-end. But hey, paying for a pickup on top of the 'Dub is just crazy. For really heavy stuff I have my dad's old '76 E-250, but I drive it so seldom that I sometimes have to charge the battery to get it started.

pete1729: A trailer, I feel like an idiot for never even considering one. Is your a diesel? Do you see 50+ mpg on the highway?


Yeah, go for it! U-Haul makes a Golf/Jetta specific hitch that won't affect your warranty, has a removable ball thingie, and is a snap to use with a small trailer. And yes, my Golf is a diesel with a 5-sp manual gearbox. I never thought about a trailer either until seeing a Golf on the freeway pulling one of those little teardrop trailers. I then looked on teh interwebs and found that U-Haul makes an inexpensive certified hitch (no having to engineer it myself). Yes, my car gets right at 50 mpg on the highway at 70 mph. With the trailer it loses about 5 mpg, which is no big deal, tho I could slow down and recover the mpg if I really wanted to. Even with diesel at $4/gal my cost per mile is about what your pickup's was when gas cost $1.25 a gallon. :^)
 
2011-11-24 12:03:11 PM  

rohar: Enormous-Schwanstucker: rohar: poot_rootbeer: I know which one I'd rather be in in the event of a collision.

Learn to drive. You local PCA, BMWCCA or SCCA can put you in touch with a driving school. After an afternoon or two of making complete messes of a bunch of corners, your likelihood of crashing on the streets drops dramatically.

Right. How's that SCCA class going to prepare you for a moronic soccer mom who pulls out in front of you with 20 feet to spare, wet roads and zero room to avoid?

Oh wait, I know whats going to help you: ABS/stability control.

/had an SCCA comp license years ago. Great fun if I feel like hanging the family truckster at 10/10th's on the way to work.

And if she had decent training, she wouldn't pull out in front of you like that.

Training reduces accidents, not air bags.



Where did any of those road course training programs teach a soccer mom to pull out into traffic properly? I'm dying to know.

While I know the value of the training, I also know there have been a few times I've had zero time to react and mashing the brake pedal with everything I have is the only thing that kept me from plowing into some idiot that thought they had enough room to pull out into traffic.

Don't be a luddite. I appreciate feeling what a car is doing, feeling every bump and hearing the mechanical workings beneath me. It's wonderful but not something I need to experience every time I get behind the wheel of an automobile.

Whether you like it or not technology improves our lives.
 
2011-11-24 12:17:51 PM  

rohar: Training reduces accidents, not air bags.


Airbags reduce fatalities in accidents, not accidents themselves.
 
2011-11-24 12:19:22 PM  

Enormous-Schwanstucker: Where did any of those road course training programs teach a soccer mom to pull out into traffic properly? I'm dying to know.


If you've never gone through competition merging, stay the fark of my track. You're a yard sale waiting to happen. Pulling in and out of the paddock is part of racing. Strangely, it's also part of merging into traffic on the streets.


Enormous-Schwanstucker: While I know the value of the training, I also know there have been a few times I've had zero time to react and mashing the brake pedal with everything I have is the only thing that kept me from plowing into some idiot that thought they had enough room to pull out into traffic.


I've been there once. In 20 years of driving, once. I agree, idiot drivers are the core of the issue. If they were trained, they wouldn't be as much of a problem. FWIW, it happened when I got back to the states. When everyone in Germany has to go through 3 years of training before they get a license, traffic accidents tend to be lower.

Enormous-Schwanstucker: Don't be a luddite.


Wow, way to miss the point. I actually help develop some of these systems. No matter what we boffins do with automated systems, it'll never have anywhere near the impact that training drivers will.
 
2011-11-24 12:22:27 PM  

StoneColdAtheist: darkscout: StoneColdAtheist: I bought a u-haul hitch for my VW, and a 5'x8' open trailer to haul stuff with. The '02 chassis is rated by VW to haul a trailer up to 1500 lbs (they recommend 1000 for the lower hp diesel engine). Anyway, it hauls all the plywood, lumber, cement and other shiat I need.

Agrees.
[vw.exstatic.org image 640x143]
[vw.exstatic.org image 267x200]

Between the interior with the seats folded down and the trailer It's like a clown car.

Good lookin' setup you got there! My Golf is a little roomier at the back end than a Jetta, but yeah...kind'a clown car-ish with 12' 2x4s sticking out the ass-end. But hey, paying for a pickup on top of the 'Dub is just crazy. For really heavy stuff I have my dad's old '76 E-250, but I drive it so seldom that I sometimes have to charge the battery to get it started.

pete1729: A trailer, I feel like an idiot for never even considering one. Is your a diesel? Do you see 50+ mpg on the highway?

Yeah, go for it! U-Haul makes a Golf/Jetta specific hitch that won't affect your warranty, has a removable ball thingie, and is a snap to use with a small trailer. And yes, my Golf is a diesel with a 5-sp manual gearbox. I never thought about a trailer either until seeing a Golf on the freeway pulling one of those little teardrop trailers. I then looked on teh interwebs and found that U-Haul makes an inexpensive certified hitch (no having to engineer it myself). Yes, my car gets right at 50 mpg on the highway at 70 mph. With the trailer it loses about 5 mpg, which is no big deal, tho I could slow down and recover the mpg if I really wanted to. Even with diesel at $4/gal my cost per mile is about what your pickup's was when gas cost $1.25 a gallon. :^)


I've put maybe 6000 miles on the truck in the past four years and it got me thru Katrina, so it stays. However, a hitch on the VW is a good idea.
 
2011-11-24 12:27:31 PM  

pete1729: I've put maybe 6000 miles on the truck in the past four years and it got me thru Katrina, so it stays. However, a hitch on the VW is a good idea.


Believe me, I understand truck loyalty. My dad bought the E-250 I have near-new in '76, and I brought it home after he died. Okay, it's not quite like a Model T that's been in the family since new, but it will soldier on for many more years. Hopefully, one of the grandkids will want it... ;)
 
2011-11-24 12:43:11 PM  

BlackFoltz: Harry_Seldon: moike: [www.blessthisstuff.com image 575x390]

Meh, keep your econobox... There are better ways to get 55mpg.

That bike does not get 55 MPG, if you a riding it properly. You might get 35 MPG.

If you want a nice bike that gets 50-60 MPG, get a Suzuki SV650, or V-strom 650.

That's what I have, v-star 650. I'm loving the 50+mpg (so long as I keep it under 60mph).


I ride a RD350 punched up to 78bhp from 35bhp. It gets 23 mpg sometimes alot less. I wouldn't trade it for anything. Smelling like a lawnmower is too much fun. And the only payload it carries has to fit in my pocket.
 
kab
2011-11-24 12:46:55 PM  

poot_rootbeer: rohar: Training reduces accidents, not air bags.

Airbags reduce fatalities in accidents, not accidents themselves give shiatty drivers the perception that they can now text while driving, in addition to having a cheeseburger and fries on their lap.


Fixed.
 
2011-11-24 12:57:37 PM  
all the extra pollution controls on the engine also give worse MPG
to lower the NOx you need to lower the combustion temperatures, and when you do that, you get worse MPG. Increase the combustion temps, you get fantastic MPG.
you can't have it both ways.
 
2011-11-24 01:00:08 PM  
285 mpg (new window)

This sort of technology isn't NEW either. Engineers have been able to hit well over 100 mpg since the 1970's.

Seriously, watch the movie. (new window)
 
2011-11-24 01:07:30 PM  

DVOM: While you've got a good point, they're not the exact same car. Cars built for the European market are different than cars built for the US market. Anti-pollution laws and other regulations are different in Europe and the US. Those regulations have a big influence on MPG and horsepower. So, while the difference in the US gallon vs. Imp gallon is a big part of the story, it's not the entire story.


All of the Prius are made on the same assembly line in Japan. They designed the car to meet the most stringent pollution standards (California), and have the same spec and output engines for each car in every market. It's their 'world' car. The *only* difference are the trim levels and rear drum vs. rear disk brakes.
 
2011-11-24 01:20:55 PM  

fastveg: My Prius gets 55 MPG and it's not even a PHEV (Plug-in) version.

Not sure what the issue is here..


Isn't that pronounced pious?
 
2011-11-24 02:23:44 PM  

FerneJohn: I have no power windows, heated seats, or DVD. Man up, you sissies.


Same here, and both of my cars are lucky to get 20mpg.

/at least one also needs a bunch of two-stroke oil mixed in every time
//just try to find two-stroke oil at a truck stop in Bumfark, MI
 
2011-11-24 04:36:09 PM  
Back in the early 90's I got hold of a '76 Chevette. It was free if I could get it started. Had to manually prime the carb (remember those?) and after the starter took a dirt nap I had to park on a hill to start (or push it to a slow roll, hop in, and pop the clutch in second). Did some math one day (I said MATH), and came to 46 mpg highway. Four speed stick, no A/C, am/fm radio. Still regret selling that little car....
 
2011-11-24 05:07:58 PM  

TehNacho: I only have power windows and locks because it was about impossible to find a vehicle that DIDN'T have them.

I want manual locks and manual windows if for no other reason, significantly cheaper to replace if they ever even break at all. I would go with a manual transmission but I have difficulty reaching the clutch on account of freakishly short legs.

It was $800 for a shop to do the regulator and motor on *one* window on my Towncar. And it needs two more. Wish it had manual windows, they'd still be working.


Uh, yeah...it is VERY hard, I'd even say IMPOSSIBLE to get manual windows and locks on a Lincoln Towncar built after 1980. They are called luxury cars for a reason...OBTW $800 per window seems obcene, find a friend that knows how to remove an interior door panel, it should cost around $100 and a 12pack.
 
2011-11-24 05:13:38 PM  

Kahabut: I love this thread so much.

I have an alternative point to raise though.

Why not stop worrying about individual vehicles so much, and start looking at the larger image? I drive 0.4 miles to work every day. There are 10 stop signs and 5 stop lights in that stretch. There is no route with LESS traffic control devices. (there are a lot of routes)

So... if the majority of these intersections had round abouts (1 already does), my fuel economy would effectively double. More importantly, so would the economy of the 2400 people that live along that route.

My point being, getting the average vehicle up in efficiency is good. But getting the average ROAD up in efficiency would be FAR more helpful. Also, it's LONG since time to really teach people to DRIVE. None of this license by cracker jack box shiat we have going on now.

Here is a test track. Get a 5 minute or less time without violating any laws, hitting anything, or assaulting your car mechanical systems.

Here is the second track, you have 1 gallon of gas and you must complete 5 laps in under 20 minutes. GO.

Presto, the real world average MPG jumps by not less than 15%

Also, included in my more difficult driver education program is HOW TO farkING MERGE AT FREEWAY SPEEDS, how to leave proper coasting gaps and following distances so that you don't have to slam the brakes or gas on a regular basis, and an advanced class in kinetic dynamics for those capable of understanding and applying it.

Throw in an enforcement budget to really go after bad drivers (not just speeders), and we'd realize savings (individually) and probably strongly influence driving related deaths/injuries.

Of course, that assumes that all men and women are equal, and can all actually learn to properly operate a complicated piece of machinery in an even more complicated system stuffed full of such machines. I have my doubts.


^^^ No kidding, I live 1.5 miles from work and my ride can be as little as 10 minutes or 16 minutes depending ONLY on how I hit the redlights. I have always wondered whether anyone in the gov't thought about the amount of gas THEY waste as I sit at the 3rd light in a row that has a green turn light with NO car sitting there to go.
 
2011-11-24 06:05:37 PM  

StoneColdAtheist: pete1729: I've put maybe 6000 miles on the truck in the past four years and it got me thru Katrina, so it stays. However, a hitch on the VW is a good idea.

Believe me, I understand truck loyalty. My dad bought the E-250 I have near-new in '76, and I brought it home after he died. Okay, it's not quite like a Model T that's been in the family since new, but it will soldier on for many more years. Hopefully, one of the grandkids will want it... ;)


That would be a van you are driving, no one wants that, no one.
 
2011-11-24 06:07:30 PM  

Mister Peejay: FerneJohn: I have no power windows, heated seats, or DVD. Man up, you sissies.

Same here, and both of my cars are lucky to get 20mpg.

/at least one also needs a bunch of two-stroke oil mixed in every time
//just try to find two-stroke oil at a truck stop in Bumfark, MI


SAAB?
 
2011-11-24 06:09:07 PM  
I love being the only person posting in 1.5-2 hours, it makes me think everyone has moved on. :(
 
2011-11-24 07:21:06 PM  

Kahabut:
So... if the majority of these intersections had round abouts (1 already does), my fuel economy would effectively double. More importantly, so would the economy of the 2400 people that live along that route.

My point being, getting the average vehicle up in efficiency is good. But getting the average ROAD up in efficiency would be FAR more helpful.


I have been wondering the same thing about hills and valleys out in the country. How much fuel is needed for dump trucks and bulldozers to re-sculpt a road and make it as flat as possible? Take the dirt from all the hills and fill in the valleys to make the road as flat as possible.

Compare the energy use of that one-time project with the energy use of thousands (millions?) of regular vehicles having to burn more fuel to repeatedly climb the natural hills over and over.

,

This is probably why freight trains are now considered to be so energy efficient compared to long-haul trucking. Trains use smooth steel wheels on steel track so the friction is very low. They usually don't climb more than about 4% grade, and less than 2% seems more common.

This means that track builders were forced to level out the route as much as possible before the first train ever moved, and massive fuel efficiencies were gained in advance by making the route as level as possible during the one-time construction energy expenditure.
 
2011-11-24 08:02:55 PM  

LivefromGA: Mister Peejay: FerneJohn: I have no power windows, heated seats, or DVD. Man up, you sissies.

Same here, and both of my cars are lucky to get 20mpg.

/at least one also needs a bunch of two-stroke oil mixed in every time
//just try to find two-stroke oil at a truck stop in Bumfark, MI

SAAB?


Rotary.

Link (new window)

Link (new window)

When you disable the oil injection pump because you're using incompatible intake hardware / they fail frequently anyway, you need to manually add oil to the fuel.

You can, technically, get away without doing it, for a few thousand miles anyway, but that always gives me the heebie-jeebies.
 
2011-11-24 08:47:23 PM  

Nutsac_Jim: covarde_anonimo: moike: [www.blessthisstuff.com image 575x390]

i CALL BS ON YOUR BS CALL.

I have a DL1000 V-Strom I get 55 mpg. 65 if I baby it and drive 55. Same 4x displacement.


you ride like an old lady. that explains it.
 
2011-11-24 09:13:08 PM  

covarde_anonimo: Nutsac_Jim: covarde_anonimo: moike: [www.blessthisstuff.com image 575x390]

i CALL BS ON YOUR BS CALL.

I have a DL1000 V-Strom I get 55 mpg. 65 if I baby it and drive 55. Same 4x displacement.

you ride like an old lady. that explains it.


I have a DL1000 V-Strom for more than 5 years. I get about 38 MPG overall. I have seen upper 40s in 6th gear freeway driving under 60MPH. I used to have the 650, it it was capable of ~50 MPG.
 
2011-11-24 10:19:31 PM  
rohar:

I've been there once. In 20 years of driving, once. I agree, idiot drivers are the core of the issue. If they were trained, they wouldn't be as much of a problem. FWIW, it happened when I got back to the states. When everyone in Germany has to go through 3 years of training before they get a license, traffic accidents tend to be lower.

Wow, way to miss the point. I actually help develop some of these systems. No matter what we boffins do with automated systems, it'll never have anywhere near the impact that training drivers will.

No, I didn't miss the point. You didn't explain it well enough:) My point is this; we can't legislate stupidity out of society and we can't teach everyone to observe and obey the laws on the road. That means many will fall through the cracks, like the ones I encounter nearly every morning on my commute. They have the deadly form of ADD and can't be bothered to pay attention. So tell me, would it matter if we sent them to SCCA school? They'd try to hit the apex on a bloody off ramp and rocket into the weeds.

We need the technology to keep the morons from killing us.
 
2011-11-25 12:10:11 AM  

LivefromGA: StoneColdAtheist: pete1729: I've put maybe 6000 miles on the truck in the past four years and it got me thru Katrina, so it stays. However, a hitch on the VW is a good idea.

Believe me, I understand truck loyalty. My dad bought the E-250 I have near-new in '76, and I brought it home after he died. Okay, it's not quite like a Model T that's been in the family since new, but it will soldier on for many more years. Hopefully, one of the grandkids will want it... ;)

That would be a van you are driving, no one wants that, no one.


I dunno...once I explain the birds and the bees to them, I pretty sure one or both of my grandsons will be interested in it.

Well, I'm a standing on a corner
in Winslow, Arizona
and such a fine sight to see
It's a girl, my Lord, in a flatbed
Ford slowin' down to take a look at me
Come on, baby, don't say maybe
I gotta know if your sweet love is
gonna save me
We may lose and we may win though
we will never be here again
so open up, I'm climbin' in,
so take it easy...
 
2011-11-25 09:44:26 AM  
Work in an ER, or better yet a closed-head injury rehab, for a little while, and you'll understand there's a pretty poignant counterpoint to the proclamation that side curtain airbags and impact beams are "useless crap"...

Regardless, even with all this "useless" crap cars of today could get just as good mileage as 80's deathtrap econoboxes. Engine tech has improved a bunch, but HP and displacement increases, driven by consumer taste have largely wiped those gains away...

A family sedan in 1985 that did 0-60 in 9 seconds would be more than adequate. A car that does that now will be dinged for being "slugish"...

We're also assigning MPG a little differently than we used to, which makes a diffference
 
2011-11-25 10:48:23 AM  

dforkus: Work in an ER, or better yet a closed-head injury rehab, for a little while, and you'll understand there's a pretty poignant counterpoint to the proclamation that side curtain airbags and impact beams are "useless crap"...

Regardless, even with all this "useless" crap cars of today could get just as good mileage as 80's deathtrap econoboxes.


So, what you;'re saying is, there's an economic incentive for you if people merely get injured in collisions instead of killed and therefore making room in the economy for the next generation?

Follow the money, people!

/wears seatbelt, and helmet in competiton, but am realistic about my chances
 
Displayed 216 of 216 comments


This thread is archived, and closed to new comments.

Continue Farking

On Twitter





Top Commented
Javascript is required to view headlines in widget.
  1. Links are submitted by members of the Fark community.

  2. When community members submit a link, they also write a custom headline for the story.

  3. Other Farkers comment on the links. This is the number of comments. Click here to read them.

  4. Click here to submit a link.

Report