Any landing you can walk away from...

Yeah, but did he give the instructor a Dutch rudder?

/should've known better than to listen to a pitch like that one.
//got rolled
///yaw, yaw, yaw with the puns

doglover: vossiewulf: then tried to turn to land INTO the dead engine, stalled and crashed of course.

There's no of course about that sentence to the layperson.

I'm not a pilot but at a guess I'd say it's probably akin to jumping up and hopping around on a broken leg.

Maximum Ramage?

vossiewulf: his plane didn't burn (which means he shut down the ignition before landing as he should, plus got a bit lucky)


As a non-pilot, I am wondering about his checklist procedure. No fire - no fuel???

I worked with a guy who use to fly single engine planes. He told me a story about when he was still under 50 hours and as he tried to start to taxi for take off the plane started running very rough. He stopped to try and figure it out when an older far more experienced pilot walked up and got his attention. The older pilot said, "You haven't adjusted your (whatever it was he had failed to do)" and then added, "You didn't do your check list... embarrassing...ain't it!" My friend never failed to do his check list on take off or landing ever again and enjoy many years of trouble free flying.

Carb heat?

Temps in Princeton, MN are in the upper 20s/low 30s.

Good landing.

For the Farker that asked, "turning into the dead engine" is an expression referring to twin-engine planes. If you're in a twin, and one engine dies, the asymmetrical thrust from the remaining running engine makes the plane want to twist in flight towards the side with the dead engine, and you don't have good control in that direction. You are supposed to avoid turing the plane in flight in the same direction as the dead engine because that asymmetrical thrust will tend to make the plane corkscrew into the ground if you turn to the dead engine side.


Student pilot was in a single engine. He probably caused the crash by missing something in the checklist like fuel flow selector. Planes have more than one tank; each wing has one, plus there is sometimes a "header tank". He may have had enough in one tank to take off, but not to continue. He may have had a blocked fuel tank vent, and a buildup of vacuum in the tank. He may have had carburetor icing, there's a heater you're supposed to turn on. It could be one of about a dozen things, but when things go wrong that soon after takeoff, it's usually the pilot that made a mistake.

CAADbury: Carb heat?

Temps in Princeton, MN are in the upper 20s/low 30s.

Yup, sounds like a classic carb icing accident.

doglover: vossiewulf: then tried to turn to land INTO the dead engine, stalled and crashed of course.

How many pilots do you think there are on fark?

There's no of course about that sentence to the layperson. I can't really imagine what lading into the dead engine could mean, honestly. Is it the hub of the turn? Is it the rim? Does the plane fold up into the engine? It's pretty freakin' arcane to folken who've never flown.

Seems pretty obvious to me.

OK, seriously, I think what he's saying here is the following: In a twin engine aircraft, when one engine fails, the resulting asymmetric thrust causes the airplane to turn (yaw) toward the dead engine. Entering a turn toward the dead engine, especially at low speed, may lead to a situation where it's impossible to roll out of the turn, at least without reducing power. That could lead to a stall and spin, and therefore a crash.

Of course.

Any Pie Left and PiperArrow

Thank you for this, as I was curious about this.
/not a pilot
//father was, though, both fixed and rotary wing
///TMYK!!

You may be right, costermonger, takeoff is a time of high performance output on the engine and low airspeed for the wings, so it's a dangerous time until you get to altitude and speed... but mechanical things are supposed to be fully checked out by the pilot before flight, so with that logic I would put down most mechanical breakdowns to pilot error as well. Obviously, the pilot can't see something like a crack in an engine connecting rod or a failed wing spar, but they are supposed to check the maintenance records and do a very comprehensive run-up check on the engine to check mags and mixture before takeoff, and of course a careful walk-around every time to make sure nothing else new is wrong.

Carb icing is more a factor of humidity than just cold temps. The ice isn't happening so much because it is cold outside, but because a carb on the engine creates a venturi effect as it sucks in air, and the effect of air moving thru the pipe at speed and reduced pressure leads to artificially lowered temps, just like in a refrigerator. Moist air turns to ice in the carb throat and chokes the engine. By the time people come to check the wreck, the ice is melted and the evidence is gone.

orbister: CAADbury: Carb heat?

Temps in Princeton, MN are in the upper 20s/low 30s.

Yup, sounds like a classic carb icing accident.

CSB. Many years ago my brother was flying a rented 172 out of Beloeil, Qc. He had rented the plane from a company that was eventually shut down by transport Canada for multiple maintenance violations. Sure enough, once at altitude the carb iced because the carb heat wasn't working, turning the Cessna into a glider. Fortunately, this happened early in the morning so there was little traffic on highway 20 which became his impromptu landing strip. Of course, once he was back on the ground the carb thawed so with the help of the provincial police to temporarily block traffic he was able to take-off again for the short hop back to the airstrip. Made the local news, too.

He didn't file a flight plan.

Student pilot on only second solo flight flips plane end over end in emergency landing but walks away without a scratch. Instructor gives him props TADA!

Hey look, I fixed it.

A good landing is one you can walk away from.

CSB time:

1. Regarding checklists. I once *thought* I had done the checklist properly, but my flight instructor intentionally distracted me during the process. As a result, I forgot to remove the rope securing the aircraft to the ramp. When I attempted to taxi, it didn't go anywhere. My flight instructor let me put on full power, fiddle with the brakes, etc. for a good minute or so and then said "maybe you better do that checklist again." Rope was found. Lesson was learned. Now, I know- if someone is distracting you during your checklist (intentionally or otherwise), you need to tell them to quit it and then start the checklist over from scratch.

2. Regarding first-time solo flights. Our flight school had a tradition of assembling all the students for a first solo. The idea was to support the newly fledged pilot and cheer his/her accomplishment. So I was there when a woman with over 120 hours of instruction FINALLY got her endorsement to solo. (To give you an idea, the average student solos at around 16 hours of instruction.) This woman was scary bad. There were instructors who refused to fly with her. She once grabbed the controls away from an instructor on a landing because "it looked like he wasn't going to flare." She grabbed them at about 100ft altitude, and flared to a stall. The instructor had to hit her, grab the controls, and execute a last-minute maneuver to save their lives. So anyway, there we all were on the day she finally earned her wings. It started off well. Smooth take off, good pattern, flaps, controls, all in the right places. Descent looked perfect. Flare and touch-down were spotless- right in the median between the runway and the taxiway. Dirt and dust flew everywhere. The aircraft was obscured in a cloud of trailing debris. It eventually came to rest, and so help me we clapped like it was the best damn landing we had ever seen when she finally taxied back to the ramp. And then she got kicked out of flight school and the FAA was informed that she should never be allowed to place her hands on the controls of an aircraft for the rest of her life.

3. Another first-time solo story. A guy who started flight school the same time as I did went up on his first solo, but right afterward an aircraft had a hard landing and snapped off a landing gear strut or wheel. Anyway, it got stuck right damn in the middle of the runway, and it was a large two-engine model that couldn't be moved easily. So they gave the guy three choices: circle until they could get a crane out there to clear the runway, find another nearby airport, or attempt a short-field landing just after the downed aircraft. The dude picked the latter, and made the best damn short-field runway I have ever seen- but forgot to land AFTER the disabled aircraft. The nose of his little Cessna probably wasn't quite as close to the other plane as he thought when he stopped, but I betcha there was some changing of underwear after that landing. To this day, I doubt there's been a shorter stop on that runway. That guy became qualified for carrier landings on his first solo flight.

Kredal: Pilot log entry: Practiced take-off, emergency situations, unpowered landing, short-field landing, grass strip landing, acrobatic maneuvers, flight time: .01 hrs

LOL!

Don't forget:
Single Engine Land: .01
Single Engine Tree: .01
Single Engine House: .01
Single Engine Telephone Pole: .01


//My instructor says I'll probably solo by Christmas, so I'm getting a kick...

Kredal: Pilot log entry: Practiced take-off, emergency situations, unpowered landing, short-field landing, grass strip landing, acrobatic maneuvers, flight time: .01 hrs

More like .1 because that's as low as the Hobbs or Tachs measure :p

tillerman35: CSB time:

1. Regarding checklists. I once *thought* I had done the checklist properly, but my flight instructor intentionally distracted me during the process. As a result, I forgot to remove the rope securing the aircraft to the ramp. When I attempted to taxi, it didn't go anywhere. My flight instructor let me put on full power, fiddle with the brakes, etc. for a good minute or so and then said "maybe you better do that checklist again." Rope was found. Lesson was learned. Now, I know- if someone is distracting you during your checklist (intentionally or otherwise), you need to tell them to quit it and then start the checklist over from scratch.

2. Regarding first-time solo flights. Our flight school had a tradition of assembling all the students for a first solo. The idea was to support the newly fledged pilot and cheer his/her accomplishment. So I was there when a woman with over 120 hours of instruction FINALLY got her endorsement to solo. (To give you an idea, the average student solos at around 16 hours of instruction.) This woman was scary bad. There were instructors who refused to fly with her. She once grabbed the controls away from an instructor on a landing because "it looked like he wasn't going to flare." She grabbed them at about 100ft altitude, and flared to a stall. The instructor had to hit her, grab the controls, and execute a last-minute maneuver to save their lives. So anyway, there we all were on the day she finally earned her wings. It started off well. Smooth take off, good pattern, flaps, controls, all in the right places. Descent looked perfect. Flare and touch-down were spotless- right in the median between the runway and the taxiway. Dirt and dust flew everywhere. The aircraft was obscured in a cloud of trailing debris. It eventually came to rest, and so help me we clapped like it was the best damn landing we had ever seen when she finally taxied back to the ramp. And then she got kicked out of flight school and the FAA was informed that she should never be allowed to place her hands on the controls of an aircraft for the rest of her life.

3. Another first-time solo story. A guy who started flight school the same time as I did went up on his first solo, but right afterward an aircraft had a hard landing and snapped off a landing gear strut or wheel. Anyway, it got stuck right damn in the middle of the runway, and it was a large two-engine model that couldn't be moved easily. So they gave the guy three choices: circle until they could get a crane out there to clear the runway, find another nearby airport, or attempt a short-field landing just after the downed aircraft. The dude picked the latter, and made the best damn short-field runway I have ever seen- but forgot to land AFTER the disabled aircraft. The nose of his little Cessna probably wasn't quite as close to the other plane as he thought when he stopped, but I betcha there was some changing of underwear after that landing. To this day, I doubt there's been a shorter stop on that runway. That guy became qualified for carrier landings on his first solo flight.

1) For me it was chocks under the right main.

2) I didn't solo until about 35.5 hrs, but to be fair I would go for a month, stop for two, et al. so there was a lot of getting used to flying again (and the plane changed 4 times, from a 172K to a 172R at the end) so not everyone does their solo in less than 20 for various reasons. Yeah, she sounds cary bad. Still, she may have gone elsewhere to get her license later. That probably doesn't make you feel better, but if passes the written, and the DPE signs off, she get's a certificate.

3) Who solos in a twin? I mean, my friend soloed in his personal Cherokee 235 which is a heavier plane with a CS prop. I can't imagine any FS able to get insurance letting people solo for the first time (not even a PP cert yet) in a twin. Heck I had to get "training in type" (I had less than 150hrs, but had my PP, IFR, Complex, HP) to get insurance in our M20J.

Picture of the pilot...

csb time,

A while after being in an inverted 4g dive with a MiG 28 in a twin, I was flying in a sub-sonic speed, and suddenly got distracted and crossed another plane's trails. That fast-moving air reached the engines too fast and the engines stalled. As a result I entered a flat spin. Lost my best friend. Almost lost my girl, but she ended up playing for the other team anyway, although technically I did both take her to bed AND lost her forever.

/dangerous

Ironically, just had almost the same thing happen at my airport last week, only difference was there was a co-pilot and 4 passengers. Plane flipped upside down on landing, crashed, and everyone walked away nearly unscathed. Clearly, there needs to be a Ta-Da! Tag.

*Hup-hup*

inglixthemad:

3) Who solos in a twin? I mean, my friend soloed in his personal Cherokee 235 which is a heavier plane with a CS prop. I can't imagine any FS able to get insurance letting people solo for the first time ...

The person solo-ing was in a 152. The twin-engine aircraft was piloted by someone with a lot of hours logged. It landed just after the solo pilot took off in the C-152. The twin landed hard and snapped off a tire or part of the gear. (I'm making an assumption when I say "landed hard," as I never did actually hear why the gear broke.) When the twin engine came to a stop it was about halfway down the runway. It was a fairly long runway, so the C-152 should have had no issues touching down just after the twin-engine craft. But the first-time solo pilot in the C-152 got nervous and thought he had to put it down on the numbers and somehow bring it to a halt BEFORE crashing into the other aircraft. Thankfully, all the practicing short-field takes offs and landings paid off. But like I said, I bet the runway wasn't the only thing with skid marks on it that day. :-)

So does this count as a full-stop landing for the currency requirement?

Seriously, never understood the love affair with 152s for primary training. I know it's cheap(er) to operate, but they always felt like flying an underpowered lawn mower.

I've taken off, flown, and landed a twin Cessna, in the daytime and at night, (full moon) without anything but rc model glider flying experience for practice. Had an instructor sitting next to me the whole time but he was totally hands-off, only working the radios and watching me in case i did something wrong, and pointing out where the IP for the pattern and crosswind turn points should be. When I say "twin", it's kinda cheating: you can't turn into the dead engine in a Cessna 337Skymaster:-) Hell, you can't hardly TURN the thing at all, it is about as nimble as a garbage truck made by Buick. And as loud.

The instructor told me I was "a nat'ral born stick-and-rudder man" , and that I should take formal lessons and get my cert. Maybe when the last kid is off in college.