Which means they're going to lose tax-exempt status, right?

Right??

Any day now...

Could they get God to help us sort out Grover Norquist then? THE God needs to put the fear of God into him.

Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life?

And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you-you of little faith? So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

-Matthew 6:25-34

sprawl15: Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life?

And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you-you of little faith? So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

-Matthew 6:25-34

It's tough to get that word out if Rick Perry can't fit it on an index card.

The long, ugly death throes of religion as a major societal power in the United States. The bishops and metropolitan and prophets are starting to realize that if they don't ban abortion and gays and booze and freethought now, they'll never get the chance.

If only they'd use their last ditch power to promote the needs of the poor and the marginalized, they might last another 500 years, but they're fixated on dicks.

When an individual or organization claims to be doing God's will, there's an easy way for you to check and verify that they're telling the truth.

Just ask God. Surely, if the almighty truly supports someone, He'll tell you so.

indylaw: The long, ugly death throes of religion as a major societal power in the United States. The bishops and metropolitan and prophets are starting to realize that if they don't ban abortion and gays and booze and freethought now, they'll never get the chance.

If only they'd use their last ditch power to promote the needs of the poor and the marginalized, they might last another 500 years, but they're fixated on dicks.

Dicks lead to kids, kids lead to adults, adults lead to... tithing. I sense much dick in you. -secular Yoda

Shouldn't they just be calling God and having him rig the race?

coeyagi: indylaw: The long, ugly death throes of religion as a major societal power in the United States. The bishops and metropolitan and prophets are starting to realize that if they don't ban abortion and gays and booze and freethought now, they'll never get the chance.

If only they'd use their last ditch power to promote the needs of the poor and the marginalized, they might last another 500 years, but they're fixated on dicks.

Dicks lead to kids, kids lead to adults, adults lead to... tithing. I sense much dick in you. -secular Yoda

I truly believe that the clergy in the trenches generally care about the welfare of their congregants and that of the dispossessed. You don't become a Catholic parish priest or a small mainline minister to become rich or famous. I think the ranks of the minister are full of true believers and altruists.

The ones with the fancy hats and ever-flowery titles are too often out for money and control.

From Saturday's "Thanksgiving Family Forum"

1. Religious Americans must fight back against nonbelievers. To quote Herman Cain:

What we are seeing is a wider gap between people of faith and people of nonfaith. ... Those of us that are people of faith and strong faith have allowed the nonfaith element to intimidate us into not fighting back. I believe we've been too passive. We have maybe pushed back, but as people of faith, we have not fought back.

2. The religious values we must fight for are Judeo-Christian. Rick Perry warned:

Somebody's values are going to decide what the Congress votes on or what the president of the United States is going to deal with. And the question is: Whose values? And let me tell you, it needs to be our values-values and virtues that this country was based upon in Judeo-Christian founding fathers.

3. Our laws and our national identity are Judeo-Christian. Michele Bachmann explained:

American exceptionalism is grounded on the Judeo-Christian ethic, which is really based upon the 10 Commandments. The 10 Commandments were the foundation for our law. That's what Blackstone said-the English jurist-and our founders looked to Blackstone for the foundation of our law. That's our law.

4. No religion but Christianity will suffice. Perry declared, "In every person's heart, in every person's soul, there is a hole that can only be filled by the Lord Jesus Christ."

5. God created our government. Bachmann told the audience:

I have a biblical worldview. And I think, going back to the Declaration of Independence, the fact that it's God who created us-if He created us, He created government. And the government is on His shoulders, as the book of Isaiah says.

6. The U.S. law should follow God's law. As Rick Santorum put it:
Unlike Islam, where the higher law and the civil law are the same, in our case, we have civil laws. But our civil laws have to comport with the higher law. ... As long as abortion is legal-at least according to the Supreme Court-legal in this country, we will never have rest, because that law does not comport with God's law.

7. Anything that's immoral by religious standards should be outlawed. Santorum again:

God gave us rights, but He also gave us laws upon which to exercise those rights, and that's what you ought to do. And, by the way, the law should comport-the laws of this country should comport with that moral vision. Why? Because the law is a teacher. If something is illegal in this country because it is immoral and it is wrong and it is harmful to society, saying that it is illegal and putting a law in place teaches. It's not just-laws cannot be neutral. There is no neutral, Ron. There is only moral and immoral. And the law has to reflect what is right and good and just for our society.

8. The federal government should impose this morality on the states. Santorum once more:

The idea that the only things that the states are prevented from doing are only things specifically established in the Constitution is wrong. Our country is based on a moral enterprise. Gay marriage is wrong. As Abraham Lincoln said, the states do not have the right to do wrong. ... As a president, I will get involved, because the states do not have the right to undermine the basic, fundamental values that hold this country together.

9. Congress should erase the judiciary's power to review moral laws. Newt Gingrich suggested:

I am intrigued with something which Robby George at Princeton has come up with, which is an interpretation of the 14th Amendment, in which it says that Congress shall define personhood. That's very clearly in the 14th Amendment. And part of what I would like to explore is whether or not you could get the Congress to pass a law which simply says: Personhood begins at conception. And therefore-and you could, in the same law, block the court and just say, 'This will not be subject to review,' which we have precedent for. You would therefore not have to have a constitutional amendment, because the Congress would have exercised its authority under the 14th Amendment to define life, and to therefore undo all of Roe vs. Wade, for the entire country, in one legislative action.

Gingrich said the same strategy could secure the Defense of Marriage Act, which bars federal recognition of same-sex marriages and protects the right of states to disregard same-sex marriages performed in other states. In his words, "You could repass DOMA and make it not appealable to the court, period."

10. Courts that get in the way should be abolished. Gingrich again:

The simplest first step which I would take is to propose-and I hope this will be a significant part of the campaign next year-I have proposed to abolish the court of Judge Biery in San Antonio, who on June 1 issued an order that said, not only could students not pray at their graduation, they couldn't use the word benediction, the could not say the word prayer, they could not say the word God, they could not ask people to stand for a moment of silence, they couldn't use the word invocation, and if he broke any of those, he would put their superintendent in jail. I regard that as such a ruthless anti-American statement that he should not be on the court, and I would move to literally abolish his court, so that he could go back to private practice, as a signal to the courts.
Biery's order was an overreach. In fact, it was overturned two days later by an appeals court. But he's only the first target of the anti-judicial purge. The next words after Gingrich's threat came from Santorum, who said: "I agree with a lot of what has just been said here. I would go farther-one step farther, Newt. I would abolish the entire Ninth Circuit."

11. The purge of judges should be based on public opinion. Gingrich once more:

Part of the purpose of singling out Judge Biery and eliminating his job is to communicate the standard that the two elected branches have the power and the authority to educate the judiciary when it deviates too far from the American people. And I think you would probably take that approach.

12. Freedom means obeying morality. Santorum concluded,

"Our founders understood liberty is not what you want to do, but what you ought to do. That's what liberty really is about."

There was one voice of dissent among the candidates. Ron Paul, the libertarian congressman from Texas, argued that people should be allowed to make bad decisions, that freedom of choice in religious matters should extend to atheists, and that powers not reserved to the federal government should be left to the states. But in a field of candidates bent on legislating Christian morality and purging uncooperative judges, Paul stood alone. Protecting America is too important to let the Constitution get in the way.



You conservatives that support these creeps should be committed to an asylum.

CPennypacker: CAN WE TAX THEM NOW PLEASE

Ha! Do you honestly think God would allow that to happen? Supply Side Jesus > Hippie Jesus.

A Dark Evil Omen: Which means they're going to lose tax-exempt status, right?

Right??

Any day now...

503(c) doesn't prohibit an organization from lobbying, or from campaigning for or against ballot initiatives, as long as the amount of money and time it spends doing it is "reasonable". It's supporting or opposing parties and candidates that is prohibited.

The only good church is a...

The Bruce Dickinson: The only good church is a...

[2.bp.blogspot.com image 400x300]

Damn, and I thought I was against organized religion.

The Bruce Dickinson: The only good church is a...

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But we're the ones who hate and cannot tolerate dissent.

indylaw: coeyagi: indylaw: The long, ugly death throes of religion as a major societal power in the United States. The bishops and metropolitan and prophets are starting to realize that if they don't ban abortion and gays and booze and freethought now, they'll never get the chance.

If only they'd use their last ditch power to promote the needs of the poor and the marginalized, they might last another 500 years, but they're fixated on dicks.

Dicks lead to kids, kids lead to adults, adults lead to... tithing. I sense much dick in you. -secular Yoda

I truly believe that the clergy in the trenches generally care about the welfare of their congregants and that of the dispossessed. You don't become a Catholic parish priest or a small mainline minister to become rich or famous. I think the ranks of the minister are full of true believers and altruists.

The ones with the fancy hats and ever-flowery titles are too often out for money and control.

Agreed. The problem, as with any top-heavy organization that collects fees and then disburses them amongst the "fiefdom", is that any sanity at the lower level, even widely-held sanity, can be silenced by the power of the purse.

CPennypacker: CAN WE TAX THEM NOW PLEASE

Sure, as long as you're willing to tax the AARP, NAACP, NRA, ACLU and pretty much every large non-profit along with them.

Seriously, people, I hate religious organizations as much as anyone, but please make just one half-assed attempt to think about the full implications of your knee-jerk reactions. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, who am I kidding. This is Fark, the home of the brain trust who can throw out quick one-line "solutions" to everything which bothers them. If only the rest of the world could understand your wisdom.

indylaw: The Bruce Dickinson: The only good church is a...

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But we're the ones who hate and cannot tolerate dissent.

Nope. Apparently The Bruce Dickinson is right there with you.

Harvey Manfrenjensenjen: CPennypacker: CAN WE TAX THEM NOW PLEASE

Sure, as long as you're willing to tax the AARP, NAACP, NRA, ACLU and pretty much every large non-profit along with them.

Seriously, people, I hate religious organizations as much as anyone, but please make just one half-assed attempt to think about the full implications of your knee-jerk reactions. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, who am I kidding. This is Fark, the home of the brain trust who can throw out quick one-line "solutions" to everything which bothers them. If only the rest of the world could understand your wisdom.

The Churches are the only non profits who actively seek to take rights away from others. I have no problem taxing just them.

Harvey Manfrenjensenjen: Seriously, people, I hate religious organizations as much as anyone, but please make just one half-assed attempt to think about the full implications of your knee-jerk reactions.

Most non-religious non-profits have to qualify as non-profits based on a list of requirements. Churches qualify simply by being a church. The idea is not that non-profits stop existing, but the special church exemption stops existing. If a church wants to do good works throughout the community and qualify as a non-profit accordingly, That's Good. If a church just wants to build the Jesusdome Stadium for their faith healing and the pastor is racking in money by the pallet, That's Bad.

Wellon Dowd: indylaw: The Bruce Dickinson: The only good church is a...

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But we're the ones who hate and cannot tolerate dissent.

Nope. Apparently The Bruce Dickinson is right there with you.

I hear Richard Dawkins is doing a GIS for "you're not helping" this very second. -Herman Cain

coeyagi: Wellon Dowd: indylaw: The Bruce Dickinson: The only good church is a...

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But we're the ones who hate and cannot tolerate dissent.

Nope. Apparently The Bruce Dickinson is right there with you.

I hear Richard Dawkins is doing a GIS for "you're not helping" this very second. -Herman Cain

Clarification: in reference to THE BRUCE DICKINSON.

sprawl15: Harvey Manfrenjensenjen: Seriously, people, I hate religious organizations as much as anyone, but please make just one half-assed attempt to think about the full implications of your knee-jerk reactions.

Most non-religious non-profits have to qualify as non-profits based on a list of requirements. Churches qualify simply by being a church. The idea is not that non-profits stop existing, but the special church exemption stops existing. If a church wants to do good works throughout the community and qualify as a non-profit accordingly, That's Good. If a church just wants to build the Jesusdome Stadium for their faith healing and the pastor is racking in money by the pallet, That's Bad.

That's the most sensible tax policy argument on this issue I've ever read on a forum for drunk, belligerent retards.

Tax exempt for churches needs to go bye-bye. The can apply for non-profit status for their charitable works, and they can do the paper work like everyone else. Frankly, this would be a great way to increase revenue.

indylaw: The Bruce Dickinson: The only good church is a...

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But we're the ones who hate and cannot tolerate dissent.

Something about reaping what you sow...

Mager: indylaw: The Bruce Dickinson: The only good church is a...

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But we're the ones who hate and cannot tolerate dissent.

Something about reaping what you sow...

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

The Bruce Dickinson: The only good church is a...

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...is a Norwegian church?

Keep us tax exempt!

VarmintCong: ...is a Norwegian church BURNING?

EXACTLY!

Once we have eliminated all of the Norwegian churches, we will know peace...

A guy on an around-the-world tour stops off in Rome. He's walking down the street when he sees a solid gold telephone on a solid gold column on the street. He stops a passing priest and asks what it is. The priest says "That, my son, is a direct line to heaven. Pick up that phone and you can talk to God." "Really?" says the guy. "How much does it cost?" "One thousand dollars" answers the priest. That's too steep for the guy so he passes on making the call.

A fe weeks later he's in Jerusalem and he sees another solid gold telephone sitting on a solid gold column."Is that what I think it is?" he asks a passing rabbi. "Yes," says the rabbi, "It's a direct line to God." "How much does it cost?" the guy asks and the rabbi answers "Fifty cents." "Only fifty cents?" exclaims the guy. "It was a thousand dollars in Rome." "Yes," answers the rabbi, "But here it's a local call."

The Bruce Dickinson: The only good church is a...

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Actually I was thinking the only good church is one that takes it's words seriously and spends it's time, effort, and money helping the poor and the destitute instead of demonizing gays, Muslims, atheists, etc.

Believe it or not, there are a lot of Christians out there who truly believe you should "love your neighbor as yourself", and act on those beliefs. They just make poor headlines, on Fark or elsewhere.

A pastor who burns a Koran makes headlines around the world, a pastor who organizes a food drive to feed the hungry in the community (like my local Methodist church does every single year) goes unnoticed. A pastor who says gays should be executed makes headlines, a pastor who follows Jesus's example and treats homosexuality as a non-issue goes unnoticed.

indylaw: Mager: indylaw: The Bruce Dickinson: The only good church is a...

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But we're the ones who hate and cannot tolerate dissent.

Something about reaping what you sow...

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

But our other senses will develop to compensate, so that's okay.

I hope there's a lobbyist who would help pledge Republicans to not pass a bill that will allow more 'special rights' for GLBT people in this country and help restrict GLBT right in that's like the Jim Crow or the Nuremberg Laws. The military is much worse off now than ever before.

The Bruce Dickinson: There was one voice of dissent among the candidates. Ron Paul, the libertarian congressman from Texas, argued that people should be allowed to make bad decisions, that freedom of choice in religious matters should extend to atheists, and that powers not reserved to the federal government should be left to the states. But in a field of candidates bent on legislating Christian morality and purging uncooperative judges, Paul stood alone. Protecting America is too important to let the Constitution get in the way.

Too Bad RON PAUL's neo-confederate policies would allow states to institute their rules regarding state-religion and would pave the way for religious schools to doom public schools. Oh, and slavery, and prohibition, and anti-abortion laws and any other thing a majority of that state's citizen's political leaders would care to push.

He's got some good ideas and he's consistent, but he's got a lot of crazy bad ideas and is consistent with them as well.

CPennypacker: CAN WE TAX THEM NOW PLEASE

why? they have as much right to lobby congress as any other group.

/not religious or christian

Onward christian? soldiers into third world status.

sprawl15: Harvey Manfrenjensenjen: Seriously, people, I hate religious organizations as much as anyone, but please make just one half-assed attempt to think about the full implications of your knee-jerk reactions.

Most non-religious non-profits have to qualify as non-profits based on a list of requirements. Churches qualify simply by being a church. The idea is not that non-profits stop existing, but the special church exemption stops existing. If a church wants to do good works throughout the community and qualify as a non-profit accordingly, That's Good. If a church just wants to build the Jesusdome Stadium for their faith healing and the pastor is racking in money by the pallet, That's Bad.

This makes perfect sense.

The Bruce Dickinson: 5. God created our government. Bachmann told the audience:

I have a biblical worldview. And I think, going back to the Declaration of Independence, the fact that it's God who created us-if He created us, He created government. And the government is on His shoulders, as the book of Isaiah says.

If god created man, and man created the transformers, then the transformers are like a gift from god Randal!

wrong phone, subby.

Spanky_McFarksalot: CPennypacker: CAN WE TAX THEM NOW PLEASE

why? they have as much right to lobby congress as any other group.

/not religious or christian

They also have as much responsibility for the care and upkeep of this nation as any other group.

Elzar: Atheism is not a religion. It's not even a worldview.

So basically us ooga-booga folks without a belief in god, fairies, santa clause, easter bunny, jesus, etc. are not the droids you're looking for...

From a philosophical perspective, I would tend to agree, but there is a body of U.S. case law that grants atheism the same protections under the law as religions, and as such congress is also prohibited from making an "establishment" of atheism. 30 seconds on Google found this case (new window), for example.

Now, as an American who thinks the First Amendment is a good idea, I'm perfectly happy with the idea of a secular government which has no official stance on the existence of God, and from a philosophical/value point of view I think that it's workable. However, one problem that we've been running running into a lot with political/religious interaction since the latter half of the 20th century is that there are a number of religious systems which contain alternative sets of facts, not just values. It's very, very common in dominionist rhetoric to accuse the government of promoting atheism by teaching kids that the world is older than 6000 years or that Thomas Jefferson probably wasn't a Christian by fundamentalist criteria, as just two examples. When you've got religions that hold on to alternative sets of facts as a matter of ideology, and the government (in its various capacities) has to take a factual stand, to the religions it starts to look like "secularism" is itself an enemy. It baffles a lot of people who've never interacted with politically active religious people, but when you realize that people like Gary North the late Francis Schaeffer have been out there for 30-40 years reaching millions with the message that "secularism" is evil, it's pretty easy to see that we're simply reaping what's been sown.