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		Some dude who only played in 30 games this season is named MVP of the American League (sportsillustrated.cnn.com)		123
		More: Cool, Justin Verlander, MVP, al mvp, American League, Jacoby Ellsbury, Baseball Writers Association of America, Jose Bautista, pitching ace

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DamnYankees

2011-11-21 02:12:40 PM

He deserved it - I hate the "he only plays every five days" argument. It's just dumb.

Cyberluddite

2011-11-21 02:22:32 PM

Actually 34 games, Subby, not including the postseason.

violentsalvation

2011-11-21 02:23:03 PM

He earned it.

AdolfOliverPanties

2011-11-21 02:50:04 PM

DamnYankees: He deserved it - I hate the "he only plays every five days" argument. It's just dumb.

Completely disagree. Pitchers already have their own MVP-type award. Four-fifths of the time, they are sitting on their butts in the dugout, and most of them are either shiatty hitters or don't bat at all.

Let them have their Cy Young and leave the MVP for players who are out there actually fielding and batting every game.

slayer199

2011-11-21 02:55:21 PM

AdolfOliverPanties: Let them have their Cy Young and leave the MVP for players who are out there actually fielding and batting every game.

It's called Most Valuable Player. Not the Most Valuable Position Player. Where would the Tigers have been without Verlander? He stopped a number of losing streaks and came up big in big games.

beantowndog

2011-11-21 03:06:40 PM

Is George King still alive?

WTF Indeed

2011-11-21 03:10:04 PM

Did not see that coming. He did earn it.

downstairs

2011-11-21 03:10:09 PM

I'm generally against pitchers getting the MVP, but in cases where he is *clearly* the single player responsible for them making the playoffs (and this is the case)... and there are no other great MVP choices, I'm ok with it.

I mean, you could say the guy plays only 1/5 the time as a position player. But in those games, he's a major part of ~50% of the plays in said game. No position player can say that. Position players are a big part of maybe 1/10th of the plays. So in reality a pitcher- if you measure by plays and not just games- is more a part of the season than any other position player.

ricewater_stool

2011-11-21 03:10:36 PM

mjoven1975

2011-11-21 03:11:36 PM

Pitchers have won the MVP award before and I have no problem with Verlander winning it this season, especially since there was no clear cut position player that deserved it.

sigdiamond2000

2011-11-21 03:12:32 PM

Oh boy. Get the fainting couches ready.

Fark's resident baseball formalists will need a place to collapse with the vapors after hearing this news.

DamnYankees

2011-11-21 03:13:02 PM

AdolfOliverPanties: Completely disagree. Pitchers already have their own MVP-type award.

So do hitters. It's called the Hank Aaron Award.

AdolfOliverPanties: Four-fifths of the time, they are sitting on their butts in the dugout, and most of them are either shiatty hitters or don't bat at all.

I can't tell if this is sarcasm.

In terms of "plays in which the player is involved", starting pitchers are basically equal to every other player. Yes, they only play every fifth game, but they are integrally involved in every at-bat when they do play. Position players, even the most active ones, don't come close to that participation rate. And even when they do participate really frequently (like 1B), they do so in a relatively unskilled way.

Nabb1

2011-11-21 03:15:22 PM

Although I think that the MVP should go to a position player more often than not, I think there are years where a pitcher deserves the honor, and Verlander is without question worthy of the honor this year. He lead the league in ERA, wins and strikeouts and there really wasn't a whole lot of competition for the award in the AL.

mjoven1975

2011-11-21 03:17:04 PM

Most Valuable Player

static.foxsports.com

Most Valuable P*ssy

sigdiamond2000

2011-11-21 03:17:30 PM

ricewater_stool: AdolfOliverPanties: DamnYankees: He deserved it - I hate the "he only plays every five days" argument. It's just dumb.

Completely disagree. Pitchers already have their own MVP-type award. Four-fifths of the time, they are sitting on their butts in the dugout, and most of them are either shiatty hitters or don't bat at all.

Let them have their Cy Young and leave the MVP for players who are out there actually fielding and batting every game.

By this logic the worst regular position player in the league is more valuable than the best pitcher.

It's an unserious argument that assumes that what a starting pitcher does has no effect on the team on the days he's not pitching, which, particularly in Verlander's case, is ridiculous. The entire way the bullpen was used all season was predicated on the near certainty that they wouldn't be needed in Verlander's starts. It changed the Tigers' entire game plan.

Cyberluddite

2011-11-21 03:36:03 PM

downstairs: I mean, you could say the guy plays only 1/5 the time as a position player. But in those games, he's a major part of ~50% of the plays in said game. No position player can say that. Position players are a big part of maybe 1/10th of the plays. So in reality a pitcher- if you measure by plays and not just games- is more a part of the season than any other position player.

Well, there's one other guy who can make the same claim: the guy squatting behind the plate for each and every goddamn pitch that the starter and every reliever throws, who also generally tells those pitchers what to throw and where for each pitch. Not only does he play the full 9 innings (unlike the starting pitcher 95% of the time), he also plays every day. So if the number of plays in which a player is involved is one of the criteria for deciding the MVP, it seems like a catcher would win it every year.

Nabb1: Although I think that the MVP should go to a position player more often than not, I think there are years where a pitcher deserves the honor, and Verlander is without question worthy of the honor this year. He lead the league in ERA, wins and strikeouts and there really wasn't a whole lot of competition for the award in the AL.

Agreed. The only reason anyone could come up with not to give it to Verlander this year is the old "he doesn't play every day" argument, and when a pitcher puts together the kind of year that Verlander did, that argument isn't enough.

Resolute

2011-11-21 03:49:46 PM

Notwithstanding the "a pitcher can/can't be MVP" argument, any writer who placed Jose Bautista below 2nd on their ballot is a living example if why idiots should not be permitted to vote.

jaylectricity

2011-11-21 03:50:13 PM

MVPitcher faced over 900 batters this year. Jacoby Ellsbury only had 700+ at-bats.

The Onion is prophetic

2011-11-21 03:50:41 PM

Cyberluddite: Well, there's one other guy who can make the same claim: the guy squatting behind the plate for each and every goddamn pitch that the starter and every reliever throws, who also generally tells those pitchers what to throw and where for each pitch. Not only does he play the full 9 innings (unlike the starting pitcher 95% of the time), he also plays every day. So if the number of plays in which a player is involved is one of the criteria for deciding the MVP, it seems like a catcher would win it every year.

Well, as Vin Scully puts it (and Vin Scully is god), the catcher suggests which pitch to throw, and the pitcher agrees or not.

/I know, I agree with what you're saying, I just try to quote Vin every chance I get

CruiserTwelve

2011-11-21 03:55:49 PM

WTF? The guy struck out in 75% of his at bats and didn't get a hit all season, and he's MVP?

DamnYankees

2011-11-21 04:03:39 PM

AdolfOliverPanties

2011-11-21 04:11:52 PM

DamnYankees: AdolfOliverPanties: Four-fifths of the time, they are sitting on their butts in the dugout, and most of them are either shiatty hitters or don't bat at all.

I can't tell if this is sarcasm.

In terms of "plays in which the player is involved", starting pitchers are basically equal to every other player. Yes, they only play every fifth game, but they are integrally involved in every at-bat when they do play. Position players, even the most active ones, don't come close to that participation rate. And even when they do participate really frequently (like 1B), they do so in a relatively unskilled way.

Not sarcasm. They play every fifth game, they don't hit worth a damn. On four out of five games, they do not contribute. I don't have a big problem with it, at least not as big a problem as everyone here who disagrees with my original comments has with me.

I would prefer the MVP go to an every day player. I don't really follow the AL that much, so maybe no one else really had a banner year. The Chowds will probably be pissed off that Ellsbury didn't get it.

DamnYankees

2011-11-21 04:13:47 PM

AdolfOliverPanties: On four out of five games, they do not contribute.

And in one out of 5 games, they contribute basically 5 times as much as any other player. It evens out.

AdolfOliverPanties

2011-11-21 04:21:55 PM

DamnYankees: AdolfOliverPanties: On four out of five games, they do not contribute.

And in one out of 5 games, they contribute basically 5 times as much as any other player. It evens out.

Don't use math on me. Hell, how about a little love for the catcher? I'm sure Verlander would give some credit to his battery mate. One has to call a good game from behind the dish.

chimp_ninja

2011-11-21 04:48:39 PM

I always love the down-ballot guys that random homers stick on the end of their ballots. This year isn't too egregious, though. But a couple examples:

Josh Hamilton played in 121 games and hit .298/.346/.536 in a launching-pad ballpark, and played most of his 2011 defense in LF, not CF.

Mark Teixeira hit .248/.341/.494 in an offense-friendly ballpark, and played a pretty solid defense at the game's easiest position.

Some professional baseball writer was asked to name the 10 best players in the AL in 2011, and came up with Hamilton and Teixeira? I suspect I can tell you what metro area he resides in.

downstairs

2011-11-21 05:33:51 PM

Cyberluddite: Well, there's one other guy who can make the same claim: the guy squatting behind the plate for each and every goddamn pitch that the starter and every reliever throws, who also generally tells those pitchers what to throw and where for each pitch. Not only does he play the full 9 innings (unlike the starting pitcher 95% of the time), he also plays every day. So if the number of plays in which a player is involved is one of the criteria for deciding the MVP, it seems like a catcher would win it every year.

Well, I wasn't saying number of plays someone is part of *is* the criteria for MVP. I was only making the argument that a pitcher is just as or more involved in the sum of all plays in the year than a position player.

I never said a pitcher should win every year because of this. I'm merely saying that there is no reason they shouldn't be eligible.

GAT_00

2011-11-21 06:00:05 PM

Cabrera got 4 farking votes? Goddammit. If he was playing for a major market team, and had the season he had with his batting history, he'd be near the top of the list. He won the AL Silver Slugger FFS.

Cyberluddite

2011-11-21 06:00:34 PM

downstairs: Well, I wasn't saying number of plays someone is part of *is* the criteria for MVP. I was only making the argument that a pitcher is just as or more involved in the sum of all plays in the year than a position player.

I never said a pitcher should win every year because of this. I'm merely saying that there is no reason they shouldn't be eligible.

I realize that's what you're saying, and I agree. I was only taking issue with your statement that postition players only figure into about 1/10th of the plays, though that statement is probably true for positions 3 through 9. Or 4 through 9, at least--the first baseman in involved in more plays than the other position players, too.

Rex_Banner

2011-11-21 06:05:13 PM

chimp_ninja: I always love the down-ballot guys that random homers stick on the end of their ballots. This year isn't too egregious, though. But a couple examples:

Josh Hamilton played in 121 games and hit .298/.346/.536 in a launching-pad ballpark, and played most of his 2011 defense in LF, not CF.

Mark Teixeira hit .248/.341/.494 in an offense-friendly ballpark, and played a pretty solid defense at the game's easiest position.

Some professional baseball writer was asked to name the 10 best players in the AL in 2011, and came up with Hamilton and Teixeira? I suspect I can tell you what metro area he resides in.

Two people voted for Teixeira - TWO! (one 7th place vote, one 10th). Those guys are on crack.

mjoven1975

2011-11-21 06:09:06 PM

Rex_Banner: chimp_ninja: I always love the down-ballot guys that random homers stick on the end of their ballots. This year isn't too egregious, though. But a couple examples:

Josh Hamilton played in 121 games and hit .298/.346/.536 in a launching-pad ballpark, and played most of his 2011 defense in LF, not CF.

Mark Teixeira hit .248/.341/.494 in an offense-friendly ballpark, and played a pretty solid defense at the game's easiest position.

Some professional baseball writer was asked to name the 10 best players in the AL in 2011, and came up with Hamilton and Teixeira? I suspect I can tell you what metro area he resides in.

Two people voted for Teixeira - TWO! (one 7th place vote, one 10th). Those guys are on crack.

The David Robertson vote is what stood out to me. I know he had a good year but come on, the guy is a middle reliever. Whatever New York homer voted for that guy needs to have his voting privileges revoked.

Gonz

2011-11-21 06:12:23 PM

I'm as traditional, old-school, "no DH or artificial turf" as they come. I think there should be no indoor baseball, and I'm not necessarily a huge fan of night games at Wrigley. I am That Guy.

I'm OK with Verlander being named MVP. He was the AL player that was most valuable to his team.

Gosling

2011-11-21 06:30:52 PM

AdolfOliverPanties: DamnYankees: He deserved it - I hate the "he only plays every five days" argument. It's just dumb.

Completely disagree. Pitchers already have their own MVP-type award. Four-fifths of the time, they are sitting on their butts in the dugout, and most of them are either shiatty hitters or don't bat at all.

Let them have their Cy Young and leave the MVP for players who are out there actually fielding and batting every game.

The hitters have the Hank Aaron Award. Not the pitcher's fault you refuse to acknowledge it.

You're as good a pitcher as Verlander, you can have an effect on those days when you're not playing. The manager knows he can count on you on your day, so he feels free to empty out the bullpen when the 5-guy's pitching, and they're fresh should the 2-guy get in trouble. Because you're so money on your fifth of the year, you give your team a better shot in two more fifths of the season as well.

Pratty

2011-11-21 06:31:03 PM

Pedro Martinez glares viciously.

Verlander deserved it, so I'm happy.

/Pitchers have the Cy Young, you say?
//Hank Aaron Award

hamdingers

2011-11-21 06:32:24 PM

Pratty

2011-11-21 06:33:39 PM

Also, because I feel like saying this.

"Would you vote for an NFL quarterback for MVP if he only appeared in three of his team's 16 games, which would be 21 percent?"

Well, considering how many people on Fark are clamouring for Peyton for MVP without playing even a down...

Gosling

2011-11-21 06:36:26 PM

The Hank Aaron Award, by the way, this year went to Jose Bautista and Matt Kemp.

studleystudstutterson

2011-11-21 06:37:21 PM

Can't see any possible justification for Michael Young getting a first-place vote:

1. He played garbage defense at every infield position, rightly DHing most of the time.
2. His .338/.380/.474 is pitiful compared to MC's .344/.448/..586

Lt. Cheese Weasel

2011-11-21 06:41:37 PM

Doubtful Clayton gets the nod in the NL, since the crudinals won the flags. But that would have been cool, both Cy Youngs also get MVPs. Dodgers just sucked the big hose this year, thank you Frank McCourt with your wandering penis and your vapid whore wife too.

/Please let Cubes buy the Dodgers

SpikeStrip

2011-11-21 06:41:40 PM

who gives a shiat, it's gone.

Entity79

2011-11-21 06:42:54 PM

Completely agree. Verlander was money every time he took the field.
24-5/2.40 ERA/250 Ks/.192 BAA
Completely dominant.

/And Ellsbury was only 29 votes short...

ThisNameSux

2011-11-21 06:44:23 PM

AdolfOliverPanties: Pitchers already have their own MVP-type award

Hitters already have their own Cy Young like award.

srhp29

2011-11-21 06:45:14 PM

slayer199: Where would the Tigers have been without Verlander?

Considering they won their division by 9 games, I'd say probably about the same place the ended up.

Lt. Cheese Weasel

2011-11-21 06:46:15 PM

SpikeStrip: who gives a shiat, it's gone.

It's just the last of the drunks leaving the party before the Hot Stove gets started. I had a very hard time letting this season go, 1 strike away, TWICE. Fackety Fack Fack Fack.

Gosling

2011-11-21 06:46:27 PM

Entity79: Completely agree. Verlander was money every time he took the field.
24-5/2.40 ERA/250 Ks/.192 BAA
Completely dominant.

/And Ellsbury was only 29 votes short...

Yeah, there was one voter that left Verlander off the ballot, pretty much in a hissy fit of 'if I don't, he's going to win and then BASEBALL IS RUINED FOREVER'.

RumsfeldsReplacement

2011-11-21 06:46:46 PM

To everyone who says "Oh a pitcher can't win, he only plays 21% of the games", let's look at Jose Bautista, a right fielder (and a 3B for 25 games).

Jose Bautista fielded the ball 333 times this year. On all other defensive plays, he contributed nothing. He came to the plate 651 times. That's a total of 984 plate appearances, offense and defense, that he was involved in.

Justin Verlander faced 969 batters this year, and thus had an impact on all of them. He also had 4 plate appearances offensively, bringing his total to 973.

984 and 973 are about the same. Jose Bautista and Justin Verlander had the same exposure and impact on their teams' seasons.

Saying a pitcher isn't as "valuable" as a position players is horseshiat.

srhp29

2011-11-21 06:49:07 PM

Resolute: Notwithstanding the "a pitcher can/can't be MVP" argument, any writer who placed Jose Bautista below 2nd on their ballot is a living example if why idiots should not be permitted to vote.

So wait, is it a stats award or an award for helping your team accomplish something coupled with stats? Pretty sure the Bluejays finish right where they finished with or without Bautista...You know...no where near the post season. Ellsbury's year was phenomenal. While I am not a Boston fan, had they actually snuck into the playoffs I would have a hard time with Ellsbury not winning it over Verlander.

kakarot251

2011-11-21 06:49:26 PM

One point that is brought up is how much Verlander really affected not only the game he pitched but also the game before and the one after. Detroit could pitch Brad Penny for 4-5 innings and then drain their bullpen because they knew they wouldn't need them in Verlander's game. Then the game after, the bullpen was well rested and ready to go. Pretty impressive for a guy who "warms the bench" 4 out of 5 games.

Gosling

2011-11-21 06:51:34 PM

RumsfeldsReplacement: To everyone who says "Oh a pitcher can't win, he only plays 21% of the games", let's look at Jose Bautista, a right fielder (and a 3B for 25 games).

Jose Bautista fielded the ball 333 times this year. On all other defensive plays, he contributed nothing. He came to the plate 651 times. That's a total of 984 plate appearances, offense and defense, that he was involved in.

Justin Verlander faced 969 batters this year, and thus had an impact on all of them. He also had 4 plate appearances offensively, bringing his total to 973.

984 and 973 are about the same. Jose Bautista and Justin Verlander had the same exposure and impact on their teams' seasons.

Saying a pitcher isn't as "valuable" as a position players is horseshiat.

To be fair, you may want to add the plate appearances where Bautista was a base runner. He was involved there too.

Lt. Cheese Weasel

2011-11-21 06:52:11 PM

RumsfeldsReplacement: To everyone who says "Oh a pitcher can't win, he only plays 21% of the games", let's look at Jose Bautista, a right fielder (and a 3B for 25 games).

Jose Bautista fielded the ball 333 times this year. On all other defensive plays, he contributed nothing. He came to the plate 651 times. That's a total of 984 plate appearances, offense and defense, that he was involved in.

Justin Verlander faced 969 batters this year, and thus had an impact on all of them. He also had 4 plate appearances offensively, bringing his total to 973.

984 and 973 are about the same. Jose Bautista and Justin Verlander had the same exposure and impact on their teams' seasons.

Saying a pitcher isn't as "valuable" as a position players is horseshiat.

The award is for 'value'. And how that relates to a teams success or lack thereof. It aint stats people.

puffy999

2011-11-21 06:54:39 PM

I'm sorry, but an ERA around 2 and a half does not justify an MVP award.

Pedro in '99 or 2000? Maybe. Maddux in '94 or '95? Maybe. Make no mistake, he was damn good this year, and deserved the unanimous Cy Young, but he was not the most valuable player in the AL this season.

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