another darwin, lovely

About time - but not enough at all.

/How can you sentence some doofus addict to 6 years for possession of codeine, but somebody who stupidly kills other people to 2 years. Totally not understandable.

20 minutes? How farking hot was it???

Jument: 20 minutes? How farking hot was it???

They had been in there for hours, but the 2 were left there for 20 minutes after passing out. Other people had sense enough to escape before they boiled in their own juices. My understanding is that Mr. Ray was encouraging people to have the courage to see this "test" thru to the end. Unfortunately, it really WAS the end for some of the participants.

but the ceremony was so spiritual

wow, Prescott in the news, I never thought I'd see the day.

Fark Me To Tears: FTFA: PRESCOTT, Ariz., Nov. 18 (UPI) -- A judge in Arizona's Yavapai County sentenced James Arthur Ray to two years in prison Friday for the deaths of three people in a sweat-lodge ceremony he ran.

Two years for causing three deaths?

Wow. Life is cheap in Arizona.

just don't get caught being brown, holding or both.

must have been a republican

yeahhh, I ever get the urge to participate in a sweat lodge I probably won't be going with the motivational speaker guru guy to do it, for 10 grand.

not aware of the risk of death from heat stroke? what a farking tool

my herniated disc: yeahhh, I ever get the urge to participate in a sweat lodge I probably won't be going with the motivational speaker guru guy to do it, for 10 grand.

not aware of the risk of death from heat stroke? what a farking tool

Don't you know that the richer and/or more famous you are, the less you are responsible for knowing things?

/Murdoch
/Cain
/Reagan
/Exxon
/BP

Two years isn't enough. Agreed. So, anyone have the book that tells you how to do the dark sacrament?

relcec: knowing nothing about the case, it always seemed like assumption of the risk to me. how much hotter than normal was it?

I think the issue was the brow-beating part of it. The people start thinking they are in trouble, but the guy is aggressively telling them to push on, and they are in a social situation where they it is a failure to drop out, and also the guy is holding himself up as a spiritual leader.

It is similar to when a coach pushes athletes too their death -- sure the athlete theoretically can decide to stop at any time, but the situation (i.e. failing in front of teammate with an authority figure yelling at you) makes it very socially unacceptable and so the coach/leader bears responsibility for the situation.

Sit in a hot little room until I hallucinate. Yeah....sounds like a fun time

I dont care for the heat.

As someone who regularly participates in sweat ceremony, I'm getting a kic^h^h I don't think this is nearly enough.


This guy needs to be driven to a Lakota reservation. Get everyone lined up and they can take turns kicking him in the balls.

GeekTheMighty: As someone who regularly participates in sweat ceremony, I'm getting a kic^h^h I don't think this is nearly enough.


This guy needs to be driven to a Lakota reservation. Get everyone lined up and they can take turns kicking him in the balls.

This is sacreligious misuse of a sweat lodge anyhow. My father, who was part Odawa but hung out mostly with Ojibwe (and any other Anishnawbe) and a bunch of Crees, was really tied into that culture, Somehow, he was never actually roasted alive in a sweat lodge. It's about spirituality, not roasting to death.

/Yes, he had people go into he sweat lodge for him when he was sick. Yes, it didn't fix his cancer. Yes, he believed that he would be flying with eagles anyhow and those in the sweat lodge helped.

He should have been thinking really really hard about how badly he didn't want to go to jail.

Instead, the universe just gave him two years.

What a sweat lodge operator might look like




What a victim of his negligence might look like

Not just "sweat-lodge operator," but "rich new-age wacko sweat-lodge operator."

Evil Canadian: GeekTheMighty: As someone who regularly participates in sweat ceremony, I'm getting a kic^h^h I don't think this is nearly enough.


This guy needs to be driven to a Lakota reservation. Get everyone lined up and they can take turns kicking him in the balls.

This is sacreligious misuse of a sweat lodge anyhow. My father, who was part Odawa but hung out mostly with Ojibwe (and any other Anishnawbe) and a bunch of Crees, was really tied into that culture, Somehow, he was never actually roasted alive in a sweat lodge. It's about spirituality, not roasting to death.

/Yes, he had people go into he sweat lodge for him when he was sick. Yes, it didn't fix his cancer. Yes, he believed that he would be flying with eagles anyhow and those in the sweat lodge helped.

He wasn't Indian, had never been taught the ceremony by an elder who knew how to conduct it, and hadn't studied it long enough to understand it. In a sense, he was selling something (the ceremonial knowledge) that didn't belong to him. And it got people killed.

I'm with you. The day he gets out, somebody needs to toss him in the back of a van and let him out at Rosebud, with a big sign on him that lets everybody know who the dumbass is.

ultraholland: but the ceremony was so spiritual

It sure was. You could actually see some of their spirits floating out of the lodge there at the end.

About the time this guy started his trial, a CNN news guy did a bit where he went into a sweat lodge thing. It got me to wondering did pre-Columbian Americans cover their sweat lodges with plastic tarps as well. More than likely, they used natural building materials which provided for some kind of air flow. Comments?

Evil Canadian: GeekTheMighty: As someone who regularly participates in sweat ceremony, I'm getting a kic^h^h I don't think this is nearly enough.


This guy needs to be driven to a Lakota reservation. Get everyone lined up and they can take turns kicking him in the balls.

This is sacreligious misuse of a sweat lodge anyhow. My father, who was part Odawa but hung out mostly with Ojibwe (and any other Anishnawbe) and a bunch of Crees, was really tied into that culture, Somehow, he was never actually roasted alive in a sweat lodge. It's about spirituality, not roasting to death.

/Yes, he had people go into he sweat lodge for him when he was sick. Yes, it didn't fix his cancer. Yes, he believed that he would be flying with eagles anyhow and those in the sweat lodge helped.

For me, sweat is a spiritual thing. I'm (at best) agnostic, but there is a strong sense of peace and tranquility to be derived from the experience.

The thing about sweat, though... it's not just about being in a hot, dark environment.

It's gathering the wood, and finding the right stones for the fire. It's about selecting the base logs, and arranging them just right. It's the ceremony, and being outdoors with family and friends.

As for healing - yep, we've had sweat for friends and family who were Ill. I'm a big proponent of evidence-based medicine but there's a lot to be said for psychosomatic effects.

dude shouldn't get any jail time, it's not like he was blocking the exit. free will, common sense, etc

..... at least I hope he wasn't

Fark Me To Tears: Life is cheap in Arizona.

The people who died each paid $10,000 for the privilege of doing so...

The airflow is pretty low in a traditionally built sweat lodge, but again, people leave to get more stones and no one is talking, telling people to do anything but pray. It's understood that some people will stay longer than others, but there is no clear beginning and no clear ending to the sweat (so this guy completely misunderstands it).

Here in California, sweats were fairly informal and designed mainly to sweat off the human smell from men before they went hunting. In fact, a lot of Natives who use some sort of sweat have that aspect as a main part of the lore: it was a practical cleansing for men who were going to sneak up on flighty animals. If the man left on the hunt with dry, smokey skin tinted with various herbs and such, he smelled more like a stale forest fire than a human - it worked in certain circumstances.

It obviously had symbolic valence beyond the practical, but still...people need to exercise common sense is what I'm saying.

I think the culpability should be pretty much split between the dumbass white people who want to play Indian because it's so....'spiritual', and the huckster who capitalized on their stupidity.

Atypical Person Reading Fark: The airflow is pretty low in a traditionally built sweat lodge, but again, people leave to get more stones and no one is talking, telling people to do anything but pray. It's understood that some people will stay longer than others, but there is no clear beginning and no clear ending to the sweat (so this guy completely misunderstands it).

Here in California, sweats were fairly informal and designed mainly to sweat off the human smell from men before they went hunting. In fact, a lot of Natives who use some sort of sweat have that aspect as a main part of the lore: it was a practical cleansing for men who were going to sneak up on flighty animals. If the man left on the hunt with dry, smokey skin tinted with various herbs and such, he smelled more like a stale forest fire than a human - it worked in certain circumstances.

It obviously had symbolic valence beyond the practical, but still...people need to exercise common sense is what I'm saying.

Interesting variation on the sweats I'm used to. For us it's more about the spiritual aspect, and while it has a less definite ending it has a specific beginning. Only one set of stones (thank goodness, I can't imagine having more then one set!). There's definitely no push to "stay" if you don't want to, and if you can't make it to the door you are more then welcome to 'make your own' by rolling under the canvas.

/that door isn't easy to get out of anyhow... humble door is humble
//it's not my head that hits... but my butt
///yes, we're super-modern, we use canvas

Leashlaw:

Indians hate these phony "medicine men" and won't give the time of day to new age white guys lurking around seeking training. Our uncle from Rosebud being one of them. They all want the Cliff Notes version so they can quickly go and spread their wisdom to the masses. It doesn't work that way, and if you try it, bad things happen.

That's what I mean. Not that it's enforceable (in a legal sense, anyway) but it's there still a death penalty in effect up there against these phony shamans?

IMO, Ray is an egotistical asshat,a jerk and a charlatan that was bilking gullible people out of their money. He was inexperienced and had no business conducting such a ceremony.

That said, to all you sweat lodge "experts":

Do you honestly believe that these lodges are inherently dangerous? If so, should they be banned entirely?

From the beginning I have been convinced that there was something more involved in this tragedy. One death I could understand. Two deaths? Highly unlikely, but THREE? I think the coroner and the cops missed something.

Ever hear of the herb Osha? (new window) The root is commonly placed on the stones in Native American lodges, where it burns and is breathed in by the participants. This is a pic of Osha:



Ever hear of Poison Hemlock? (new window) Like Osha, this deadly poisonous plant grows in the wild, and in areas where Osha might be found. This is a pic of Poison Hemlock:



As you can see, these plants are remarkably similar - to the inexperienced eye, one might easily be mistaken for the other.

What do you suppose would happen if some novice harvested Poison Hemlock root and sold or gave it to James Ray believing that it was Osha, and James tossed this deadly root onto those hot rocks?

If that be the case, they would be damn lucky that only three people died.

Shortly after the incident, I emailed both the coroner and Ray's defense attorneys, suggesting that they investigate this possibility. Predictably, my emails were ignored.

Following this tragedy, the Native American community was understandably worried that an overreaction might see lodges banned entirely. Fortunately that did not happen, as these are NOT inherently dangerous, though there is certainly something to be said for their being conducted by those with wisdom, compassion AND experience.

I'm Cree and do regular sweats. Staying in there for "hours" is unheard of and no reputable lodge conductor would ever do that. Sweats go for 45 minutes to an hour at most. The door is opened at least 3-4 times to allow fresh air in, and there is a large bucket of potable water available inside at all times. This asshole deserves worse than what he got, that's for sure.

Mystery Vortex: in, and there is a large bucket of potable water available inside at all times. This asshole deserves worse than what he got, that's for

Agreed. Water is a large part of sweat, and especially if the rocks are "hot" that day the conductor is (hopefully) not going to be stingy with passing around the water.

Those poor, credulous people paid a lot of money to find out their lives are worth so little. Hopefully his fellow prisoners will feel the same.