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(Bloomberg) Interesting Islam offers up a three-way with Pakistan and Tunisia, bunch of Lahores   (bloomberg.com) divider line 13
More: Interesting, third ways, Pankaj Mishra, Pakistan, Islamic, Tunisia, ruling elite, just society, morally superior  
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700 clicks; posted to Politics » on 18 Nov 2011 at 10:39 AM   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»   |    Get this fabulous T-Shirt and impress the methane out of your friends! shirt it!



13 Comments   (+0 »)
   
 
colon_pow
2011-11-18 10:42:28 AM
that was hard to read. now my brain hurts.
 
Modguy [TotalFark]
2011-11-18 10:45:09 AM
colon_pow: that was hard to read. now my brain hurts.

Indeed. It makes baby Jesus not Prophet cry.
 
wojaq
2011-11-18 10:52:12 AM
can somebody translate that
 
Gyrony
2011-11-18 10:58:42 AM
Why is it then that Islamic countries have governments that are as, or more, corrupt and moribund than comparative non Islamic countries?
 
KiltedBastich
2011-11-18 11:06:52 AM
Modguy: colon_pow: that was hard to read. now my brain hurts.

Indeed. It makes baby Jesus not Prophet cry.

No kidding. I suspect that was the Urdu version of Engrish in action.
 
draypresct
2011-11-18 12:10:51 PM
Gyrony: Why is it then that Islamic countries have governments that are as, or more, corrupt and moribund than comparative non Islamic countries?

Sounds like you've done a thorough review of corruption by country, accounting for GDP and outside influences. Would you mind sharing a little more of your research?

For kicks, I looked at the countries on the Wikipedia corruption perceptions index (Link), and found the ones that were >50% Muslim (CIA World Factbook, click on Population, then click on religion to get info by country on the religious makeup). The average corruption index score for >50% Muslim countries was 3.01 in 2010. The overall average of the countries in the table was 3.96.

Why do you suppose that was?
 
draypresct
2011-11-18 12:15:52 PM
draypresct: Gyrony: Why is it then that Islamic countries have governments that are as, or more, corrupt and moribund than comparative non Islamic countries?

Sounds like you've done a thorough review of corruption by country, accounting for GDP and outside influences. Would you mind sharing a little more of your research?

For kicks, I looked at the countries on the Wikipedia corruption perceptions index (Link), and found the ones that were >50% Muslim (CIA World Factbook, click on Population, then click on religion to get info by country on the religious makeup). The average corruption index score for >50% Muslim countries was 3.01 in 2010. The overall average of the countries in the table was 3.96.

Why do you suppose that was?

Holy crap I'm an idiot. Here I did all this work, and found the result, and just assumed that higher values of a corruption index meant "more corrupt". Silly me. For this scale, higher values meant less corrupt.

Oy.

My original point (about the potential influence of GDP) stands. I expect countries with higher amounts of poverty to be more corrupt, but don't have the energy to do a more complex model right now.
 
Gyrony
2011-11-18 12:28:26 PM
draypresct: draypresct: Gyrony: Why is it then that Islamic countries have governments that are as, or more, corrupt and moribund than comparative non Islamic countries?

Sounds like you've done a thorough review of corruption by country, accounting for GDP and outside influences. Would you mind sharing a little more of your research?

For kicks, I looked at the countries on the Wikipedia corruption perceptions index (Link), and found the ones that were >50% Muslim (CIA World Factbook, click on Population, then click on religion to get info by country on the religious makeup). The average corruption index score for >50% Muslim countries was 3.01 in 2010. The overall average of the countries in the table was 3.96.

Why do you suppose that was?

Holy crap I'm an idiot. Here I did all this work, and found the result, and just assumed that higher values of a corruption index meant "more corrupt". Silly me. For this scale, higher values meant less corrupt.

Oy.

My original point (about the potential influence of GDP) stands. I expect countries with higher amounts of poverty to be more corrupt, but don't have the energy to do a more complex model right now.

I'll let you slide, this time. ;)

What is cause and what is effect? Poverty or Corruption?
 
FloydA [TotalFark]
2011-11-18 12:30:44 PM
Gyrony: Why is it then that Islamic countries have governments that are as, or more, corrupt and moribund than comparative non Islamic countries?

Because many Islamic countries are theocracies, and theocracies are always appealing to corrupt people. Once civil authority and religious authority are joined, any disagreement with the powers that be is not just a "crime," but a "sin." The joining of authority of the state to the authority of the church gives the people at the top an incredible amount of power.

It's got nothing to do with Islam, per se. A Christian, Jewish, Buddhist or Hindu theocracy would also become corrupt. In fact, even forced adherence to an absence of religion- an atheist "anti-theocracy"- would end up corrupt. The specific details of the religion are irrelevant; what matters is the concentration of power.
 
liam76
2011-11-18 01:03:45 PM
wojaq: can somebody translate that

There are muslims who want govt based on Islam but doesn't want to call them theocrats because that means they are bad or soemthing.

In any case, Tunisians voting for Ghannouchi and Pakistanis flocking to Khan's rallies are not the radical revolutionaries or closet theocrats they are often made out to be by a paranoid local elite and a global liberal intelligentsia. Rather, these are people who have simply failed to develop the habit of seeing Islam as a purely religious phenomenon, separate from economics, politics, law and other aspects of collective life.

The guy is a farking moron. If you want religious law to be the law of the land, you are a theocrat. Nothing "closeted" about them.

Oddly he is making an argument about Islam not being just a religion but apolitical system as well that is made by many people who are labeled as islamaphobic.
 
draypresct
2011-11-18 01:48:37 PM
Gyrony: draypresct: draypresct: Gyrony: Why is it then that Islamic countries have governments that are as, or more, corrupt and moribund than comparative non Islamic countries?

Sounds like you've done a thorough review of corruption by country, accounting for GDP and outside influences. Would you mind sharing a little more of your research?

For kicks, I looked at the countries on the Wikipedia corruption perceptions index (Link), and found the ones that were >50% Muslim (CIA World Factbook, click on Population, then click on religion to get info by country on the religious makeup). The average corruption index score for >50% Muslim countries was 3.01 in 2010. The overall average of the countries in the table was 3.96.

Why do you suppose that was?

Holy crap I'm an idiot. Here I did all this work, and found the result, and just assumed that higher values of a corruption index meant "more corrupt". Silly me. For this scale, higher values meant less corrupt.

Oy.

My original point (about the potential influence of GDP) stands. I expect countries with higher amounts of poverty to be more corrupt, but don't have the energy to do a more complex model right now.

I'll let you slide, this time. ;)

What is cause and what is effect? Poverty or Corruption?

Point taken. While my gut feeling is that poverty is the primary causative factor, I have to admit I don't know, and it very well might be different for different countries.
 
KiltedBastich
2011-11-18 03:56:59 PM
FloydA: Gyrony: Why is it then that Islamic countries have governments that are as, or more, corrupt and moribund than comparative non Islamic countries?

Because many Islamic countries are theocracies, and theocracies are always appealing to corrupt people. Once civil authority and religious authority are joined, any disagreement with the powers that be is not just a "crime," but a "sin." The joining of authority of the state to the authority of the church gives the people at the top an incredible amount of power.

It's got nothing to do with Islam, per se. A Christian, Jewish, Buddhist or Hindu theocracy would also become corrupt. In fact, even forced adherence to an absence of religion- an atheist "anti-theocracy"- would end up corrupt. The specific details of the religion are irrelevant; what matters is the concentration of power.

Arguably, you might have an easier time disputing the claims of an anti-theocracy, because by definition they cannot use the "Goddidit / Godsaysso" claims that are often used to justify religious authority. That won't make them any less corrupt, but it may well make it easier to convince people they are in fact corrupt, full of shiat and in need of being told to STFU, GTFO and DIAF than in similar cases involving religious authority.
 
FloydA [TotalFark]
2011-11-18 05:15:04 PM
KiltedBastich:
Arguably, you might have an easier time disputing the claims of an anti-theocracy, because by definition they cannot use the "Goddidit / Godsaysso" claims that are often used to justify religious authority. That won't make them any less corrupt, but it may well make it easier to convince people they are in fact corrupt, full of shiat and in need of being told to STFU, GTFO and DIAF than in similar cases involving religious authority.


Good point! That's why the CP-USSR and the Khmer Rouge are no longer in power, but the Vatican and the Supreme Ayatollahs and their ilk still are. All totalitarian systems are equally as corrupt, but the atheists lack the threat of eternal damnation to scare people. Stalin could only have you tortured until you were dead. The theocracies claim that they can keep it up even afterwards.
 
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