Told you so. The Cold War never really ended, and you should never trust a Russian.

We can't afford a border threatening gap!

I'm OK with that as long as they correctly pronounce the damned word.

Ah, the rare "this is not a repeat" trifecta in play.

If Russia would keep his dogs out of my yard, I wouldn't feel the need to mass my military at our shared property line.

ZAZ: I think it's more like Russia threatens global thermonuclear war if one of those border chess matches turns out to its disadvantage. Much like America was going to get nuked if Soviet tanks had a hard time in the then-border state of West Germany. Or more on point, like the threat to nuke the East Coast got American missiles out of Turkey in the 1960s.

But I might ask for a demonstration before permitting a retraction of the Western sphere of influence. Show me those ICBMs are reliable, because rumor has it they aren't.



You don't need ICBMs if it's a conflict near your borders. In any case, this is just a lot of wind. Now that there's no pretend ideological advantage to nuking the West, there is no pretend advantage of any sort. This is just hardball diplomatic posturing.

This might be geopolitical naivete, but why don't we invite Russia into the NATO club, too? The Soviet Union not being a credible global threat anymore, and all.

fappomatic: I'm OK with that as long as they correctly pronounce the damned word.

What word-threaten?

dameron: The Soviets didn't get the bomb until 1949.

Would they let a little thing like that stop them from threatening it?

Would you mind awfully if we cursed in your general direction? Just for the press back home

Chthonic Echoes: This might be geopolitical naivete, but why don't we invite Russia into the NATO club, too? The Soviet Union not being a credible global threat anymore, and all.

Why don't we just include the entire world into NATO? U.S. already has its military on 130 (out of 196+/-) countries; let's scoop up the other 66 and I'm sure the world will be much better for it.

/eyeroll

daffy: fappomatic: I'm OK with that as long as they correctly pronounce the damned word.

What word-threaten?

Homer: "It's pronounced nuculear"

Chthonic Echoes: This might be geopolitical naivete, but why don't we invite Russia into the NATO club, too?

I would love to be a fly on the wall inside the Kremlin if top officials were to open a formal invitation to NATO.

Hopefully it's in a real cheesy Hallmark card.

FTFA: Gen. Nikolai Makarov, chief of the General Staff of the Russian armed forces, cautioned over NATO's expansion eastward and warned that the risks for Russia to be pulled into local conflicts have "risen sharply."

It's Makarov threatening this? Time to call Task Force 141.

nihilspawn: FTFA: Gen. Nikolai Makarov, chief of the General Staff of the Russian armed forces, cautioned over NATO's expansion eastward and warned that the risks for Russia to be pulled into local conflicts have "risen sharply."

It's Makarov threatening this? Time to call Task Force 141.

So glad someone caught that.

Population control. 85 percent of us will be killed off, like the Illuminati wants. They can then rebuild the Earth to suit their ideals.

Besides there is only 1 country that has used nuclear weapons so far, and it ain't Russia.

The neighborhood equivalent of the old man screaming at the kids to keep off his lawn...

SweetSaws: daffy: fappomatic: I'm OK with that as long as they correctly pronounce the damned word.

What word-threaten?

Homer: "It's pronounced nuculear"

Klaatu Barada Necktie?

It's a variation on Godwin.

If you make me clip my toenails, it could lead to nuclear war!

Petulant Dwarf: Besides there is only 1 country that has used nuclear weapons so far, and it ain't Russia.

The United States, USSR, United Kingdom, France, India, Pakistan, China and North Korea have "used" nuclear weapons. The United States is the only one to have detonated one on another country during a war.

The Russian Federation has never detonated a nuclear weapon.

I have nothing against the Georgian people, but I very strongly dislike the idea of Georgia becoming a NATO member. It is still too young and unstable a democracy, with multiple geographic regions internally competing for independence and national leadership.

Just one year after their democratic reforms in 1991 after winning independence, they had a military coup of their own democratically elected president. Yeah, not real stable just yet. If Georgia as a NATO member did something stupid, it would, in theory, require the U.S. to go to all out war with Russia. The two biggest nuclear powers at all out war because an unstable little nation does something unexpected. Bad idea.

How insane do you have to be in order to threaten nuclear war on your own borders?

This is like threatening to nuke Juarez, Mexico if the Mexican government gets too cozy with the Chinese.

Harry Freakstorm: What's keeping Russia from joining NATO?

Ideological differences mostly. A concrete example of this is how often they vote against the U.S and Europe on U.N security council issues. It is often China and Russia on one side, with the U.S. and Europe on the other.

Harry Freakstorm: See? Won't even have to change the letterhead or the envelopes.

+1

I like how people in Russia act as if NATO matters anymore.

Russia actually has a reasonable position here. The interests of the former bloc republics are not always in harmony with those of Moscow, and in fact resulted in the 2008 war in Georgia that all of the Fark Cold Warriors™ were shiatting their pants over.

Given that they've already fought a war in the region recently, and we're going to offer membership in a mutual defense treaty to one of the belligerents in that war, what should their reaction be? "Cool"?

I really, really doubt that we want to be involved in a large-scale, mid-20th century style conventional war with Russia over some shiathole whose dressed-up dictatorship we've propped up in a misguided attempt to perpetuate Cold War era policies to isolate Moscow. I don't think Russia wants that either.

Also, they've had some experience with the whole "entangling alliances" thing.

You gotta understand a few things about the Russian mindset.

They're insane when it comes to self-defense.

They've been invaded 'twice' by the same crazy Kraut country and the second time nearly did the trick.

The only way to explain it would be if Mexico became a military powerhouse and invaded the U.S., got driven back and then invaded 'again' twenty years later and this time they got all the way to Washington DC and nearly destroyed it before being driven back.

They weren't satisfied with having the largest nation in the region with hundreds of miles of empty space to swallow up invading armies...They had to surround themselves with satellite nations, the whole Soviet Bloc thing.

A buffer zone, so to speak.

And that's why they built up their forces to such amazing degree during the Cold War.

They saw NATO as a potential threat and formed the Warsaw Pact as a result.

They developed nuclear weapons as a response to the U.S. having them, and even 'then', MacArthur wanted to nuke the hell out of Korea before Truman canned his ass.

The deterioration of their conventional forces through neglect and corruption has resulted in them throwing out the Nuke card at every opportunity, to the point of it becoming ridiculous.

And now? NATO expanding into Eastern Europe is making all those old Red-flags go up and sirens sound off in the Kremlin.

Why would Russia drop a nuclear bomb on a book store?

NittLion78: I like how people in Russia act as if NATO matters anymore.

It's only a pact of many of the indisputably most powerful militaries in the world. Several of whom are nuclear armed. Yeah, very insignificant.

Infernalist: You gotta understand a few things about the Russian mindset.

They're insane when it comes to self-defense.

They've been invaded 'twice' by the same crazy Kraut country and the second time nearly did the trick.

The only way to explain it would be if Mexico became a military powerhouse and invaded the U.S., got driven back and then invaded 'again' twenty years later and this time they got all the way to Washington DC and nearly destroyed it before being driven back.

They weren't satisfied with having the largest nation in the region with hundreds of miles of empty space to swallow up invading armies...They had to surround themselves with satellite nations, the whole Soviet Bloc thing.

A buffer zone, so to speak.

And that's why they built up their forces to such amazing degree during the Cold War.

They saw NATO as a potential threat and formed the Warsaw Pact as a result.

They developed nuclear weapons as a response to the U.S. having them, and even 'then', MacArthur wanted to nuke the hell out of Korea before Truman canned his ass.

The deterioration of their conventional forces through neglect and corruption has resulted in them throwing out the Nuke card at every opportunity, to the point of it becoming ridiculous.

And now? NATO expanding into Eastern Europe is making all those old Red-flags go up and sirens sound off in the Kremlin.

MacArthur wanted to nuke china

SoCalSurfer: Infernalist: You gotta understand a few things about the Russian mindset.

They're insane when it comes to self-defense.

They've been invaded 'twice' by the same crazy Kraut country and the second time nearly did the trick.

The only way to explain it would be if Mexico became a military powerhouse and invaded the U.S., got driven back and then invaded 'again' twenty years later and this time they got all the way to Washington DC and nearly destroyed it before being driven back.

They weren't satisfied with having the largest nation in the region with hundreds of miles of empty space to swallow up invading armies...They had to surround themselves with satellite nations, the whole Soviet Bloc thing.

A buffer zone, so to speak.

And that's why they built up their forces to such amazing degree during the Cold War.

They saw NATO as a potential threat and formed the Warsaw Pact as a result.

They developed nuclear weapons as a response to the U.S. having them, and even 'then', MacArthur wanted to nuke the hell out of Korea before Truman canned his ass.

The deterioration of their conventional forces through neglect and corruption has resulted in them throwing out the Nuke card at every opportunity, to the point of it becoming ridiculous.

And now? NATO expanding into Eastern Europe is making all those old Red-flags go up and sirens sound off in the Kremlin.

MacArthur wanted to nuke china

All those asian countries look the same to me.

Dear Russia,

Really, take our word for it. We have absolutely no interest in invading your worn out, polluted shiathole of a country. So knock it off with the saber-rattling already would ya?

Hugs,
NATO

If I were him I'd worry more about the conflicts within Russia's borders than those simply near them. Internal separatist groups have killed far more Russians and represent a far greater threat to their security than does NATO.

That said...

ThrobblefootSpectre: I have nothing against the Georgian people, but I very strongly dislike the idea of Georgia becoming a NATO member. It is still too young and unstable a democracy, with multiple geographic regions internally competing for independence and national leadership.

I agree 100%. It's the military equivalent of letting Greece into the Euro zone.

Old enough to know better: Dear Russia,

Really, take our word for it. We have absolutely no interest in invading your worn out, polluted shiathole of a country. So knock it off with the saber-rattling already would ya?

Hugs,
NATO

Russia is resource rich.
/We can put real nickle in our nickles

Infernalist: You gotta understand a few things about the Russian mindset.

They're insane when it comes to self-defense.

They've been invaded 'twice' by the same crazy Kraut country and the second time nearly did the trick.

Russia lost WW1, they surrendered in 1917. Germany/Austria took what they wanted and concentrated on the west front.

Japan also kicked Russias ass, you should have included that.

History dude...

drjekel_mrhyde: Old enough to know better: Dear Russia,

Really, take our word for it. We have absolutely no interest in invading your worn out, polluted shiathole of a country. So knock it off with the saber-rattling already would ya?

Hugs,
NATO

Russia is resource rich.
/We can put real nickle in our nickles

Well, 'Siberia' is. The Chinese have been drooling over that region for the last 50 years.

Wow, is that guy related to the 9x18 Makarov guy?

I demand retort by Gen. Boeing and Admiral Winchester Magnum

spawn73: Infernalist: You gotta understand a few things about the Russian mindset.

They're insane when it comes to self-defense.

They've been invaded 'twice' by the same crazy Kraut country and the second time nearly did the trick.

Russia lost WW1, they surrendered in 1917. Germany/Austria took what they wanted and concentrated on the west front.

Japan also kicked Russias ass, you should have included that.

History dude...

Yeah, they're like the old scarred dog that growls at 'anyone' coming too close, just from pure instinct and previous asskickings.

Infernalist: You gotta understand a few things about the Russian mindset.

They're insane when it comes to self-defense.

They've been invaded 'twice' by the same crazy Kraut country and the second time nearly did the trick.

The only way to explain it would be if Mexico became a military powerhouse and invaded the U.S., got driven back and then invaded 'again' twenty years later and this time they got all the way to Washington DC and nearly destroyed it before being driven back.

They weren't satisfied with having the largest nation in the region with hundreds of miles of empty space to swallow up invading armies...They had to surround themselves with satellite nations, the whole Soviet Bloc thing.

A buffer zone, so to speak.

And that's why they built up their forces to such amazing degree during the Cold War.

They saw NATO as a potential threat and formed the Warsaw Pact as a result.

They developed nuclear weapons as a response to the U.S. having them, and even 'then', MacArthur wanted to nuke the hell out of Korea before Truman canned his ass.

The deterioration of their conventional forces through neglect and corruption has resulted in them throwing out the Nuke card at every opportunity, to the point of it becoming ridiculous.

And now? NATO expanding into Eastern Europe is making all those old Red-flags go up and sirens sound off in the Kremlin.


So you're saying the Germans are about due for another land grab? Could be fun this time around to just kick back and watch it all happen.

ThrobblefootSpectre: NittLion78: I like how people in Russia act as if NATO matters anymore.

It's only a pact of many of the indisputably most powerful militaries in the world. Several of whom are nuclear armed. Yeah, very insignificant.

Eh . . . sorta. It's the US and friends. Just look at the war in Libya. The US (despite being heavily involved in two other major wars) ended up doing the majority of the work. Same deal with Afghanistan. Our allies in Nato have seen how much we spend and have used that as an excuse to cut their own military budgets to help with their budget problems (sensible from their point of view). But that basically means the forces NATO brings to bear isn't all that much different than what the US can do on it's own.

ThrobblefootSpectre: NittLion78: I like how people in Russia act as if NATO matters anymore.

It's only a pact of many of the indisputably most powerful militaries in the world. Several of whom are nuclear armed. Yeah, very insignificant.

And none of them care enough about Russia to want to vaporize its cities.

Seriously, Russia, the Cold War is over. We don't care about you any more. MOVE ON.

This is not a meme trifecta in play

Marine1: ThrobblefootSpectre: NittLion78: I like how people in Russia act as if NATO matters anymore.

It's only a pact of many of the indisputably most powerful militaries in the world. Several of whom are nuclear armed. Yeah, very insignificant.

And none of them care enough about Russia to want to vaporize its cities.

Seriously, Russia, the Cold War is over. We don't care about you any more. MOVE ON.

And they really don't believe you. Or anyone else. It's not about logic, and more to do with 'ingrained instinct'.

Repeatedly invaded, attacked, infiltrated and sabotaged for a very very long time will do that to you.

It's like the Israel thing. They just 'expect' their enemies to be biding their time and waiting for the right moment to strike again.

watson.t.hamster: Infernalist: You gotta understand a few things about the Russian mindset.

They're insane when it comes to self-defense.

They've been invaded 'twice' by the same crazy Kraut country and the second time nearly did the trick.

The only way to explain it would be if Mexico became a military powerhouse and invaded the U.S., got driven back and then invaded 'again' twenty years later and this time they got all the way to Washington DC and nearly destroyed it before being driven back.

They weren't satisfied with having the largest nation in the region with hundreds of miles of empty space to swallow up invading armies...They had to surround themselves with satellite nations, the whole Soviet Bloc thing.

A buffer zone, so to speak.

And that's why they built up their forces to such amazing degree during the Cold War.

They saw NATO as a potential threat and formed the Warsaw Pact as a result.

They developed nuclear weapons as a response to the U.S. having them, and even 'then', MacArthur wanted to nuke the hell out of Korea before Truman canned his ass.

The deterioration of their conventional forces through neglect and corruption has resulted in them throwing out the Nuke card at every opportunity, to the point of it becoming ridiculous.

And now? NATO expanding into Eastern Europe is making all those old Red-flags go up and sirens sound off in the Kremlin.


So you're saying the Germans are about due for another land grab? Could be fun this time around to just kick back and watch it all happen.

ThrobblefootSpectre: NittLion78: I like how people in Russia act as if NATO matters anymore.

It's only a pact of many of the indisputably most powerful militaries in the world. Several of whom are nuclear armed. Yeah, very insignificant.

Eh . . . sorta. It's the US and friends. Just look at the war in Libya. The US (despite being heavily involved in two other major wars) ended up doing the majority of the work. Same deal with Afghanistan. Our allies in Nato have seen how much we spend and have used that as an excuse to cut their own military budgets to help with their budget problems (sensible from their point of view). But that basically means the forces NATO brings to bear isn't all that much different than what the US can do on it's own.

No, the US did not do most of the work in Libya.

In the early stages of the war the US was active in combat solely to bring down Libya's IADS and secure air superiority. Once that was done our roles were limited to intelligence, supply, and knocking down any errant Anti-Aircraft weapon or equipment that threatened air superiority. In terms of actually supporting the Libyan rebels the Europeans did the vast majority of the work (with US bombs, but they did the work.)

Not sure how the partition would fall, but thats not really important. The take home from the above is that Libya was a rather equal affair, especially when you compare it to other recent NATO campaigns.

Infernalist: Repeatedly invaded, attacked, infiltrated and sabotaged for a very very long time will do that to you.

But enough about Russia's neighbors

watson.t.hamster: Eh . . . sorta. It's the US and friends. Just look at the war in Libya. The US (despite being heavily involved in two other major wars) ended up doing the majority of the work. Same deal with Afghanistan. Our allies in Nato have seen how much we spend and have used that as an excuse to cut their own military budgets to help with their budget problems (sensible from their point of view). But that basically means the forces NATO brings to bear isn't all that much different than what the US can do on it's own.

Um, okay it's only "sorta" a pact of the indisputably most powerful militaries in the world, several of which are nuclear armed. Better?

I honestly don't think Libya is even tangentially relevant to the discussion, since that wasn't strictly NATO operation (it was a U.N. security council vote), Libya is not a NATO member, and was not being externally attacked. That was an extremely minor token effort.

The true significance of NATO is when a NATO member itself is attacked by outside forces. Giving Georgia membership makes that risk skyrocket for no rational gain that I can see, other than expansionism for expansionism's sake.