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(The Citizen)   School Head on rape claim: "Guys do this kind of thing, you have to get used to it"   ( thelocal.se) divider line
    More: Dumbass, rape claim, rights of women, periodicals  
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17197 clicks; posted to Main » on 14 Nov 2011 at 2:36 PM (5 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



139 Comments     (+0 »)
 


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2011-11-14 06:17:11 PM  

Jingo Ate Your Baby: wiredmaverick: The student reported the school to the Schools Inspectorate (Skolinspektionen), which has now forwarded the complaint to the Equality Ombudsmannen (Diskrimineringsombudsmannen - DO).

That can't really be a word, can it?

Did you get tired halfway through like I did and read it as Diskriminerinkydinkydink?

/diskriminerinkidoo
//obscure


I LOL'd. Which is a bad thing here at work.

Fortunately I darn near choked.
 
2011-11-14 06:22:37 PM  

capilot: The Kanin study was crap. He studied one medium-sized town over the course of a small period of time.

All he showed was that there was something seriously wrong in that single town. I suspect that the real problem was that they had a cop who was unusually good at bullying women into dropping the charges.


Yeah, it couldn't possibly be that women often lie or exaggerate things for various reasons. It has to be that a man was a bully. Because women are innocent dainty creatures, and men are all brutish neandertals.

Way to resort to misandry when you disagree with the evidence presented, though.
 
2011-11-14 06:54:13 PM  

Thorak: capilot: The Kanin study was crap. He studied one medium-sized town over the course of a small period of time.

All he showed was that there was something seriously wrong in that single town. I suspect that the real problem was that they had a cop who was unusually good at bullying women into dropping the charges.

Yeah, it couldn't possibly be that women often lie or exaggerate things for various reasons. It has to be that a man was a bully. Because women are innocent dainty creatures, and men are all brutish neandertals.

Way to resort to misandry when you disagree with the evidence presented, though.


News flash: It's not one or the other.

Sometimes women make up rape allegations due to "regret", etc.

Sometimes men rape women, and the women get bullied into dropping charges.

These things do not preclude each other. There's jerks of both sexes. And it's a jerk problem, not a male/female problem.
 
2011-11-14 07:18:24 PM  
I've always wondered something. This is a question for guys who don't think rape is a big deal or think that women overreact to it. Let's say a huge disgusting 500 pound woman manages to climb on top of you and pin you down (maybe she ties you up). Then she proceeds to take off your clothes and rub her naughty bits all over your body and repeatedly tries to insert you (or does if you manage to get/stay erect). You don't want this to happen and it's a scary situation because you can't move, you're completely out of control. Big Bertha is choking and beating you during all this until she is done.

Afterwards, do you feel violated? Do you feel embarrassed and/or disgusted with yourself? Do you just simply get over it and move on? Would this even phase you?
 
2011-11-14 07:19:16 PM  

RandomSwede: It's funny what kind of news TheLocal.se reports sometimes. It is usually controversial or stupid events, premade for sites like FARK.com, no further selection needed. Controversial events like this would be big news here in Sweden and be picked up by all newsmedia. Only problem is that I have spent the last half hour trying to find another news article that mentions this event, and I can't find it. I'm not saying it didn't happen, but if no other reports on it, maybe it didn't happen that way...


Thanks for the feedback. I keep considering looking at Sweden as a "Plan B" country to this zoo of a country. We're not so much a melting-pot as we are a fruitcake. However, I worry sometimes at the insane news I read on TheLocal.

Are there better English news sites for Sweden that are more ... let's go with "reliable"?
 
2011-11-14 07:25:23 PM  

kyoryu: News flash: It's not one or the other.

Sometimes women make up rape allegations due to "regret", etc.

Sometimes men rape women, and the women get bullied into dropping charges.

These things do not preclude each other. There's jerks of both sexes. And it's a jerk problem, not a male/female problem.


I'm not saying rape doesn't happen, I'm just saying that responding to statistics about false accusations with "oh, but there's lots of women who don't report it even though there's zero reputable evidence to support that claim since if we had numbers on unreported rapes they would, by definition, be reported" or that it must be because a male police officer is bullying them into recanting, that's just misandry.

It's the ugly mirror to the "she was asking for it" bullshiat.

Calling people out for misandry does not mean I'm a misogynist.
 
2011-11-14 07:27:36 PM  
You know when you report a rape, the first thing that happens is that you get "swabbed." --you go to the hospital, put your feet in the stirrups, and have your insides examined and evidence taken. Right after you were raped. Then you are interrogated for hours by police, trauma specialists, lawyers, and anybody else who might have an interest in deciding whether or not you have a case in prosecuting the rapist.

At some point, I imagine someone will tell the raped person the odds of actually getting a conviction, the problem of a crime with no witnesses basically being a "he said/she said" case, and what the raped person will go through if they decide to pursue the case and it makes it all the way to court, of which there's no guarantee. You're talking a couple of years out of a person's life, not to mention what it will do to their personal relationships, their job, the stress of being grilled in front of a bunch of strangers about the most intimate and disgusting details of something that happened to them, to say nothing of facing the rapist in court day after day. All for the slim chance of getting a conviction--depending on which country you're in, you have about a 20% chance of the rapist being found guilty.

People decide not to pursue a rape case? Well, there's only one explanation for it--the little whores were lying.

/Why the fark do I even have to write that out?
 
2011-11-14 07:28:00 PM  
I guess he didn't like being the school head....
 
2011-11-14 07:32:08 PM  

ciberido: sidcart42: See what happens when you call things rape that aren't rape? We have no idea how serious they are, because you've gone and destroyed the meaning of the word we're ready to turn vigilante over.

Ok, I'll bite ... what things that are not rape do people call rape?


A: Retroactively non-consensual sex.
 
2011-11-14 07:34:30 PM  

PillsHere: I've always wondered something. This is a question for guys who don't think rape is a big deal or think that women overreact to it. Let's say a huge disgusting 500 pound woman manages to climb on top of you and pin you down (maybe she ties you up). Then she proceeds to take off your clothes and rub her naughty bits all over your body and repeatedly tries to insert you (or does if you manage to get/stay erect). You don't want this to happen and it's a scary situation because you can't move, you're completely out of control. Big Bertha is choking and beating you during all this until she is done.

Afterwards, do you feel violated? Do you feel embarrassed and/or disgusted with yourself? Do you just simply get over it and move on? Would this even phase you?


Identify one person here who think the situation you described is not a big deal.
 
2011-11-14 07:36:14 PM  
*thinks
 
2011-11-14 07:37:58 PM  
Thorak

And I'm always irked by the "many rapes go unreported" metric. How the hell do we know? If they're unreported, it means that there is no record. And if we haven't actually established in a court of law that what happened WAS rape, then I don't think adding more false accusations or past regrets to the list counts as "many rapes going unreported".


The government does anonymous crime surveys, where they ask you if you were the victim of a rape (along with various other crimes) and if you reported it to the police or not. And I have no idea how it would be considered a "false accusation" if nobody made the accusation to the cops in the first place.

All he showed was that there was something seriously wrong in that single town. I suspect that the real problem was that they had a cop who was unusually good at bullying women into dropping the charges.

Yeah, it couldn't possibly be that women often lie or exaggerate things for various reasons. It has to be that a man was a bully. Because women are innocent dainty creatures, and men are all brutish neandertals.

Way to resort to misandry when you disagree with the evidence presented, though.



Why is it easier to believe that dozens many women were lying about rape than to believe that a bad cop in the force would bully and pressure them into recanting?

Why is it is misandry to suggest that one bad cop would bully people, yet it isn't misogyny to suggest that half of all the alleged rape victims in that town would lie?

Are you an MRA?
 
2011-11-14 07:39:57 PM  

IgG4: Just try to enjoy it...


Think of England.
 
2011-11-14 07:40:58 PM  
oi44.tinypic.com

The picture is from Finland but it still applies. Europe has a huge problem with immigrants that believe unescorted women deserve to be raped. The perpetrators are often given slaps on the wrist for whatever reason.

"forwarded the complaint to the Equality Ombudsmannen" is telling.

48% of convicted rapists in Sweden in 2009 were born abroad
9.2% of the population were born outside the EU
 
2011-11-14 08:54:41 PM  

LordPomposity: Wow. Just unbelievable. I want to think most Americans are good people, but I just keep reading about them acting like this.


I can't figure out if this is an excellent troll, a display of the shiattiest understanding of statistics in history, a complete ignorance of geography, or complete and utter illiteracy. Either way, it deserves to be the inaugural entry on the Fark Wall of Holy shiat You're Stupid.
 
2011-11-14 09:20:07 PM  
I wonder something.

When a woman (or man, but I'll go with "woman" here) reports that she was raped, why are there so many people whose Weeners is contempt and/or wharrgarbl about how she is probably lying?

Showing human compassion toward someone who reports a rape does NOT mean that you automatically have to name, vilify, and convict an accused perpetrator. It does NOT mean that you agree 100% that the case will hold up in court (which many, as cryingoutloud mentioned, do not). Funny how most cases of theft, vandalism, assault, murder, etc. don't merit this vicious skepticism. I hope none of the ITGs immediately brushing this student off as "probably lying" would respond like that to a friend or relative.
 
2011-11-14 09:42:05 PM  

Inchoate: I wonder something.

When a woman (or man, but I'll go with "woman" here) reports that she was raped, why are there so many people whose Weeners is contempt and/or wharrgarbl about how she is probably lying?

Showing human compassion toward someone who reports a rape does NOT mean that you automatically have to name, vilify, and convict an accused perpetrator. It does NOT mean that you agree 100% that the case will hold up in court (which many, as cryingoutloud mentioned, do not). Funny how most cases of theft, vandalism, assault, murder, etc. don't merit this vicious skepticism. I hope none of the ITGs immediately brushing this student off as "probably lying" would respond like that to a friend or relative.


It's not the rape claim that tells me she's lying, it's the principals reaction combined with the one-sidedness of the article.

Occams razor leaves a pretty easy decision between "crazy school principal doesn't care about his students raping each other" and "teenage girl lied about sex".
 
2011-11-14 11:42:48 PM  

Thorak: And I'm always irked by the "many rapes go unreported" metric. How the hell do we know? If they're unreported, it means that there is no record. And if we haven't actually established in a court of law that what happened WAS rape, then I don't think adding more false accusations or past regrets to the list counts as "many rapes going unreported".


I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but I'd need more than the anonymous supposed victim's word that they were raped because I consider it an unreported crime. Artificially inflating crime statistics like this just serves to try and demonize men.


Well, gee, you could look it up

Or you could just keep putting your fingers in your ears and sing "La-la-la"!

Maybe Google is just too hard.
 
2011-11-14 11:49:12 PM  

Thorak: Calling people out for misandry does not mean I'm a misogynist.


No but the fact there you are denying the existence of something that has been studied and for which there is overwhelming evidence DOES.

http://www.musc.edu/vawprevention/research/sa.shtml

Seriously, you clearly have some strong emotional need to deny the existence of something which has been very well documented. Ask yourself why you feel so strongly about this one particular issue. Why does rape threaten you so?
 
2011-11-14 11:58:33 PM  

serial_crusher: Occams razor leaves a pretty easy decision between "crazy school principal doesn't care about his students raping each other" and "teenage girl lied about sex".


It does?

You must not have much experience with academic administrators. :/
 
2011-11-15 12:15:28 AM  
According to the report, when the girl's mother called the principal to discuss her comments
So the principal is a woman? Maybe she is just waiting her turn.
 
2011-11-15 01:00:51 AM  

Banned on the Run: ciberido: sidcart42: See what happens when you call things rape that aren't rape? We have no idea how serious they are, because you've gone and destroyed the meaning of the word we're ready to turn vigilante over.

Ok, I'll bite ... what things that are not rape do people call rape?

A: Retroactively non-consensual sex.


Actually, several universities in the US have defined even mutually consensual sexual encounters as rape if the female has had ANY alcohol whatsoever, under the assumption her judgment was impaired. Zero Tolerance as well; no matter the level of alcohol, no matter even if the female disagrees that anything inappropriate went on. Administration finds out about sex after drinking any quantity of alcohol, male is expelled.

Other places have determined mutually consensual sex is prosecutable as rape if it was entered into under false pretenses (one party has misled or lied to the other party). Basically, if you say you are single and you aren't, or say you are rich when you aren't, in order to get laid, you are a rapist.

Neither of those seem like particularly healthy additions to the term "rape", and serve only to trivialize the term.
 
2011-11-15 02:02:50 AM  

MeanJean: The government does anonymous crime surveys, where they ask you if you were the victim of a rape (along with various other crimes) and if you reported it to the police or not. And I have no idea how it would be considered a "false accusation" if nobody made the accusation to the cops in the first place.


The thing is, we normally have things called "courts" that establish whether someone's actually committed a crime or not.

Someone feeling victimized does not necessarily mean a crime was committed.

I'm not denying that some go unreported, but establishing how many actual rapes go unreported should require a hell of a lot more investigation than just asking someone if they think they were a victim.

Especially since we're discussing the false-claim percentage, too, here. It's a proven fact, via actual investigations and court proceedings, that plenty of women lie about being raped, or at least are completely mistaken about what happened. Cases where they got drunk, and she regrets having sex in the morning and can't remember consenting and assumes she was raped, for instance. I'm sure it was a horrible experience for her that morning, but that doesn't mean the guy she was with committed a crime, and she's exactly the kind of person who'd maybe not report it but would say "yes" to those anonymous surveys.

ciberido: Seriously, you clearly have some strong emotional need to deny the existence of something which has been very well documented. Ask yourself why you feel so strongly about this one particular issue. Why does rape threaten you so?


No, I have a strong ethical need for there to be some accountability and proof to claims such as those made.

If your hypothesis is "many rapes go unreported", and you run an anonymous survey and ask women "have you been forcibly raped, and not reported it?", and you don't take the time to establish the truth of that statement, then you're surveying how women feel, rather than what actually happened. I'm not even saying women are liars; they may simply be mistaken, or expressing how a situation made them feel rather than what the facts represented.

We know that many rapes that ARE reported are reported falsely. While a small percentage of those will be vindictive accusations, more are probably mistaken impressions or confusion. And I would suspect those kinds of experiences would be the more likely to go unreported. And then those same women would firmly say yes, they had been raped, on an anonymous survey, even if a court of law would have found differently had they pursued the case.


But thanks for trying to imply that I'm a rapist, apparently because I'm male and think we should tread carefully and establish whether a crime was actually committed before just assuming any anonymous claim to be legitimate. That's totally not a bigoted stance to take.
 
2011-11-15 02:24:21 AM  

LordPomposity: Wow. Just unbelievable. I want to think most Americans are good people, but I just keep reading about them acting like this.


Americans?

Someone didn't read TFA.
 
2011-11-15 02:45:10 AM  
Just lie back and think of Stockholm.
 
2011-11-15 02:56:24 AM  
Jingo Ate Your Baby:

Did you get tired halfway through like I did and read it as Diskriminerinkydinkydink?

/diskriminerinkidoo
//obscure


i love you.
 
2011-11-15 07:24:38 AM  

lennavan: Subby, Joe Paterno is not the head of Penn State.


All kidding aside, jopa certainly was, if not in name but in his own nasty head. The prick.
 
2011-11-15 07:41:20 AM  
When one of the fathers or mothers of these victims shows up one day to knock this dumb ass fools teeth down throat.... Hey, protective outraged parents do that kind of thing, you have to get use to it.

Of course in the middle east the would most likely stone the victim of rape to death if they were a girl that is.... Some so called religious people would make the girl carry that unwanted pregnancy, if they had their way with other people bodies...kind of double rape


Rape is never something to just get use to
 
2011-11-15 12:05:15 PM  

CliChe Guevara: Actually, several universities in the US have defined even mutually consensual sexual encounters as rape if the female has had ANY alcohol whatsoever, under the assumption her judgment was impaired. Zero Tolerance as well; no matter the level of alcohol, no matter even if the female disagrees that anything inappropriate went on. Administration finds out about sex after drinking any quantity of alcohol, male is expelled.
Other places have determined mutually consensual sex is prosecutable as rape if it was entered into under false pretenses (one party has misled or lied to the other party). Basically, if you say you are single and you aren't, or say you are rich when you aren't, in order to get laid, you are a rapist.
Neither of those seem like particularly healthy additions to the term "rape", and serve only to trivialize the term.


Yeah, I generally agree with that.
Some kinds of intoxication can turn you into an id-driven automaton without memory, without the real capacity to say yes OR no. If someone deceitfully gets you that way (i.e. secretly and intentionally doctoring your drinks), that is rape. If YOU get yourself that way, taking advantage of automaton-you is a serious dick move (esp. if the other person is sober) that deserves shaming and is morally on the same continuum as rape, but absent actual ... forcing is not, IMHO, something as clear-cut or legally prosecutable.

I forget who suggested it first (Dan Savage), but I like the idea of "enthusiastic consent" being a social/moral benchmark. If your new partner assents in a monotone or mumbles a drunken sort of go-ahead, and doesn't seem to be having any fun at all, you are doing it wrong and should figure out what they want.

As for sex on sleazy false pretenses (your second point)... yeah. Another dick move, but not something the law should get involved with unless some kind of quantifiable fraud or damage is involved. It dilutes the gravity of real rape to call that rape.
 
2011-11-15 01:00:12 PM  
Thorak

Especially since we're discussing the false-claim percentage, too, here. It's a proven fact, via actual investigations and court proceedings, that plenty of women lie about being raped, or at least are completely mistaken about what happened.

That does happen, sure. But certainly nowhere near to the degree that you think it does, given the amount of evidence to the contrary.

Cases where they got drunk, and she regrets having sex in the morning and can't remember consenting and assumes she was raped, for instance. I'm sure it was a horrible experience for her that morning, but that doesn't mean the guy she was with committed a crime, and she's exactly the kind of person who'd maybe not report it but would say "yes" to those anonymous surveys.

I'd find that easier to believe if it wasn't for the fact I've known people who have been raped and were too terrified and traumatized to report it, and they sure as shiat weren't drunk.

But thanks for trying to imply that I'm a rapist apparently because I'm male and think we should tread carefully and establish whether a crime was actually committed before just assuming any anonymous claim to be legitimate.

Where the fark did I ever imply you were a rapist? I certainly implied (and now I say outright) that you're a willfully ignorant moron, but I never implied you were a rapist.

You - "Blah blah women are lying liars false-claims blah blah"

Me- "Evidence to the contrary."

You - "WAAH STOP BEING MISANDRIST AND CALLING ME A RAPIST WAAAH!"
 
2011-11-15 01:06:54 PM  
Thorak

If your hypothesis is "many rapes go unreported", and you run an anonymous survey and ask women "have you been forcibly raped, and not reported it?", and you don't take the time to establish the truth of that statement, then you're surveying how women feel, rather than what actually happened. I'm not even saying women are liars; they may simply be mistaken, or expressing how a situation made them feel rather than what the facts represented.

You're not seriously invoking the old trope that women are too emotional and not rational enough to determine if they'd been raped or not? That they'd report it as a rape if they just felt regret? And that it would be common enough to totally warp the survey results?

Do you honestly think that the majority of rape claims, reported or unreported, are because of that?

What planet do you live on?
 
2011-11-15 01:27:29 PM  

CliChe Guevara: Other places have determined mutually consensual sex is prosecutable as rape if it was entered into under false pretenses (one party has misled or lied to the other party). Basically, if you say you are single and you aren't, or say you are rich when you aren't, in order to get laid, you are a rapist.

Neither of those seem like particularly healthy additions to the term "rape", and serve only to trivialize the term.


Actually, I agree. There should be a different term for it other than "rape."
 
2011-11-15 01:39:07 PM  

Thorak: But thanks for trying to imply that I'm a rapist, apparently because I'm male and think we should tread carefully and establish whether a crime was actually committed before just assuming any anonymous claim to be legitimate. That's totally not a bigoted stance to take.


I'm not trying to imply that you're a rapist. I'm not -implying- anything. I'm -stating- that you are in absolute denial of the facts. Studies have been done. The facts are clear. Links to these studies and statistics have been provided in this thread, by me and by others. You deny them.

People who deny the facts but claim that they "only want the truth" usually have an agenda. You have "truthers," "birthers," "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" and the like who have a political agenda. You have the folks who deny Anthropomorphic climate change who mostly have some sort of economic or pro-business agenda. You've got people who claim that "Intelligent Design" is a real science, and they have a religious agenda. For holocaust deniers, it's racism. You're not really in very good company here.

I'm not calling you a rapist, but I AM saying that you have an agenda with regard to rape. Something about rape threatens you, or you wouldn't try so hard to pretend that it isn't real. I don't care so much about you coming clean here on Fark. But I do think you might benefit from a little soul-searching.
 
2011-11-15 03:33:37 PM  

Salem Witch: Diskriminerinky


I read it as Diskriminerinkyborkborkbork

media.onsugar.com
 
2011-11-15 04:34:58 PM  

Inchoate: Yeah, I generally agree with that.


Wait, you are saying that you 'generally agree' that going home with anyone you meet at a bar or at a party where alcohol is served, by definition makes you a rapist? Am I getting that right? You are OK with that?

No one is talking about roofies or passed out people here, they have defined it as ANY level of alcohol. You both have a beer, you both go have sex, you are both happy with it - but you are a rapist whether you think so or not, and the girl is a victim whether she thinks so or not. That makes no sense whatsoever.
 
2011-11-15 04:51:39 PM  

Rihlsul: RandomSwede: It's funny what kind of news TheLocal.se reports sometimes. It is usually controversial or stupid events, premade for sites like FARK.com, no further selection needed. Controversial events like this would be big news here in Sweden and be picked up by all newsmedia. Only problem is that I have spent the last half hour trying to find another news article that mentions this event, and I can't find it. I'm not saying it didn't happen, but if no other reports on it, maybe it didn't happen that way...

Thanks for the feedback. I keep considering looking at Sweden as a "Plan B" country to this zoo of a country. We're not so much a melting-pot as we are a fruitcake. However, I worry sometimes at the insane news I read on TheLocal.

Are there better English news sites for Sweden that are more ... let's go with "reliable"?


Well a quick search came up with stockholmnews.com (new window) sweden.se (new window) nordstjernan.com (new window) Not sure about the quality though, but isn't it true that we all complain about how news is reported?

My guess is that a news site that report news from a country in a foreign language have two target audiences:
1) Those genuinely interested in said country but don't speak the language.
2) Those that follow a link from a news aggregation website to read about some crazy, weird or otherwise noteworthy event.
The local have figured out that the latter group outnumber the first by a whole lot, so much that each article have buttons to submit it to Fark, Digg and Twitter. Having galleries of pretty girls found at the local pub probably doesn't hurt the hit counter either, NTTIAWWT...
 
2011-11-15 05:41:19 PM  

CliChe Guevara: Wait, you are saying that you 'generally agree' that going home with anyone you meet at a bar or at a party where alcohol is served, by definition makes you a rapist? Am I getting that right? You are OK with that?

No one is talking about roofies or passed out people here, they have defined it as ANY level of alcohol. You both have a beer, you both go have sex, you are both happy with it - but you are a rapist whether you think so or not, and the girl is a victim whether she thinks so or not. That makes no sense whatsoever.


I meant I generally agreed with your post, not the "NO DRUNK FARKING EVER" idea. That wasn't clear, sorry (though the rest of my post should've made it a little more so).
 
2011-11-15 11:07:36 PM  

Thorak: capilot: The Kanin study was crap. He studied one medium-sized town over the course of a small period of time.

All he showed was that there was something seriously wrong in that single town. I suspect that the real problem was that they had a cop who was unusually good at bullying women into dropping the charges.

Yeah, it couldn't possibly be that women often lie or exaggerate things for various reasons. It has to be that a man was a bully. Because women are innocent dainty creatures, and men are all brutish neandertals.

Way to resort to misandry when you disagree with the evidence presented, though.


Dude? How do you get that from that? It was a very small study. It was in a single town. THAT'S what suggests one town has a problem with false accusations, or a bad cop (or prosecutor).

'women often lie or exaggerate things" do you even hear yourself???
 
2011-11-17 01:45:26 AM  

CliChe Guevara: No one is talking about roofies or passed out people here, they have defined it as ANY level of alcohol. You both have a beer, you both go have sex, you are both happy with it - but you are a rapist whether you think so or not, and the girl is a victim whether she thinks so or not. That makes no sense whatsoever.


Other issues aside for the moment, it also makes no sense that the girl is automatically the victim and the boy is automatically the rapist. Women rape men, men rape men, women rape women --- all possible combinations do occur, though obviously not in equal amounts.
 
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